Can I rant about 3rd year grades for a bit

[SouthernSurgeon]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Slow clap if you brought her home the next night

She was an awesome fellow...but she was not what you'd call...attractive

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Because buying cookies for the person who grades you isn't at all suspicious of ulterior motive...

Anyway, fellows I've worked with were generally annoyed by such gestures. The student who brought in coffee and granola bars got a lot of eye rolls and smirks when she left the work room. Just saying, that despite good intentions this sort of thing can be easily interpreted as groveling/grubbing.

I survived.

It was the only time I did something like that, and I think I read the situational dynamics correctly

 

[PL198]

She was an awesome fellow...but she was not what you'd call...attractive

I'm gonna do the slow clap anyway, in the event that you would have, if you were interested.

:slowclap:

 

[DermViser]

Because buying cookies for the person who grades you isn't at all suspicious of ulterior motive...

Anyway, fellows I've worked with were generally annoyed by such gestures. The student who brought in coffee and granola bars got a lot of eye rolls and smirks when she left the work room. Just saying, that despite good intentions this sort of thing can be easily interpreted as groveling/grubbing.

Depends on the execution of it. The ones that are socially awkward tend to muck it up to where it's obvious. The ones that are gunners also muck it up bc it's obvious.

 

[KinasePro]

Depends on the execution of it. The ones that are socially awkward tend to muck it up to where it's obvious. The ones that are gunners also muck it up bc it's obvious.

Even with flawless execution, it's kinda patronizing. I think most fellows don't really want or need our pity and treats to make their days better. They take pride in their work ethic, and if they need some coffee or food they will happily get it themselves. I think this mentality is where the eye rolls come from.

 

[DermViser]

Even with flawless execution, it's kinda patronizing. I think most fellows don't really want or need our pity and treats to make their days better. They take pride in their work ethic, and if they need some coffee or food they will happily get it themselves. I think this mentality is where the eye rolls come from.

Hence why it's important to know the person's personality. Which you can probably assess well after a week being on rotation with them.

 

[PL198]

Even with flawless execution, it's kinda patronizing. I think most fellows don't really want or need our pity and treats to make their days better. They take pride in their work ethic, and if they need some coffee or food they will happily get it themselves. I think this mentality is where the eye rolls come from.

I mean it's really situational. If they're working stupid hard for a long period of time, they don't have time to get that coffee or food they might want. When he said that she told him she almost cried or did cry(forget which) that made sense in my opinion. I can imagine it that regardless of the person doing the action, at some point people get so overwhelmed that when someone just takes a minute to do something good for them, it's like the best thing ever and they just want to bawl their eyes out in happiness.

 

[KinasePro]

Hence why it's important to know the person's personality. Which you can probably assess well after a week being on rotation with them.

Sure, but I'd put my money on most being annoyed, some being polite and feigning gratitude, and a small minority accepting your charity with enthusiasm.

I mean it's really situational. If they're working stupid hard for a long period of time, they don't have time to get that coffee or food they might want. When he said that she told him she almost cried or did cry(forget which) that made sense in my opinion. I can imagine it that regardless of the person doing the action, at some point people get so overwhelmed that when someone just takes a minute to do something good for them, it's like the best thing ever and they just want to bawl their eyes out in happiness.

I'm sure this happens, but I'm just trying to balance the perspective. I don't think I met a single surg onc or cardiothoracic fellow on my rotations who would happily accept med student charity. For example, people working 36+hr shifts sent me to buy them coffee a few times on my rotations, but they insisted I buy myself lunch with their money before I came back. This is typical behavior from someone who is above you in the hierarchy. When you try to reverse this role it comes across weird, and makes the person above you feel like they're not doing their job, you pity them, or you're sucking up. It's the same reason why in other industries your boss always buys your lunch/ coffee/ drink when you're out together, and your coworker who's buying lunch/ coffee/ drinks for your boss will earn a few raised eyebrows.

 

[tdram]

I dunno. I like to do nice things for people who are nice to me. If they think I'm sucking up, whatever.

 

[PL198]

Sure, but I'd put my money on most being annoyed, some being polite and feigning gratitude, and a small minority accepting your charity with enthusiasm.



I'm sure this happens, but I'm just trying to balance the perspective. I don't think I met a single surg onc or cardiothoracic fellow on my rotations who would happily accept med student charity. For example, people working 36+hr shifts sent me to buy them coffee a few times on my rotations, but they insisted I buy myself lunch with their money before I came back. This is typical behavior from someone who is above you in the hierarchy. When you try to reverse this role it comes across weird, and makes the person above you feel like they're not doing their job, you pity them, or you're sucking up. It's the same reason why in other industries your boss always buys your lunch/ coffee/ drink when you're out together, and your coworker who's buying lunch/ coffee/ drinks for your boss will earn a few raised eyebrows.

Yeah I understand what you're saying, I think this was just a small exception for someone that was in a very tight spot.

 

[DermViser]

Sure, but I'd put my money on most being annoyed, some being polite and feigning gratitude, and a small minority accepting your charity with enthusiasm.

You could always try the leave the cookies in the resident room routine, where anyone can grab them: MS-3s, interns, residents, or whoever is in the room. Then you can't be accused of targeting someone with sustenance.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I'm sure this happens, but I'm just trying to balance the perspective. I don't think I met a single surg onc or cardiothoracic fellow on my rotations who would happily accept med student charity. For example, people working 36+hr shifts sent me to buy them coffee a few times on my rotations, but they insisted I buy myself lunch with their money before I came back. This is typical behavior from someone who is above you in the hierarchy. When you try to reverse this role it comes across weird, and makes the person above you feel like they're not doing their job, you pity them, or you're sucking up. It's the same reason why in other industries your boss always buys your lunch/ coffee/ drink when you're out together, and your coworker who's buying lunch/ coffee/ drinks for your boss will earn a few raised eyebrows.

I would not underestimate the importance of a small, sincere gesture of kindness to someone who is truly emotionally overworked and emotionally exhausted.

Believe my intentions were pure or not, I was really just trying to do something nice for someone I felt bad for. I can tell you from personal experience it was appreciated.

 

[DermViser]

I would not underestimate the importance of a small, sincere gesture of kindness to someone who is truly emotionally overworked and emotionally exhausted.

Believe my intentions were pure or not, I was really just trying to do something nice for someone I felt bad for. I can tell you from personal experience it was appreciated.

I don't see why this is hard for him to understand. I realize it requires being able to read people, but even that's not that difficult. Based on what you've described the med student would have to have severe Asperger's to not notice his/her resident's exhaustion. And it's not like you waited for the credit. You left it behind and she found the cookie on her own time.

 

[KinasePro]

I would not underestimate the importance of a small, sincere gesture of kindness to someone who is truly emotionally overworked and emotionally exhausted.

Believe my intentions were pure or not, I was really just trying to do something nice for someone I felt bad for. I can tell you from personal experience it was appreciated.

I'm sure I come across as the grinch here, but I'm just putting up the flag for the pre-clinical students here who are inclined to buy things for their teams.

Not trying to say you were wrong in any way, just that sincerity is in the eye of the beholder. Although this worked for you in this case, I've seen people get burned by it in similar scenarios and they weren't socially awkward huey's like derm is insinuating. My small, sincere gesture is your med student being a suck-up, and so on.

 

[tdram]

I don't see why this is hard for him to understand. I realize it requires being able to read people, but even that's not that difficult. Based on what you've described the med student would have to have severe Asperger's to not notice his/her resident's exhaustion. And it's not like you waited for the credit. You left it behind and she found the cookie on her own time.

I can't believe so much is being said this. To me, that would not even be a thought. Someone is overworked and tired, you help out. The fact that we have to dissect motivation behind this act is crazy. Our culture should expect this sort of thing. What kind of people have we become where we can't even give each other a cookie without our motives questioned?

 

[KinasePro]

I don't see why this is hard for him to understand. I realize it requires being able to read people, but even that's not that difficult. Based on what you've described the med student would have to have severe Asperger's to not notice his/her resident's exhaustion. And it's not like you waited for the credit. You left it behind and she found the cookie on her own time.

I can't believe so much is being said this. To me, that would not even be a thought. Someone is overworked and tired, you help out. The fact that we have to dissect motivation behind this act is crazy. Our culture should expect this sort of thing. There should not even be a thought.

Easy folks, I understand what he's saying. No need to have your jimmies rustled. What's wrong with providing a contradicting viewpoint, as someone who's worked with overworked residents/fellows who dislike these gestures? I'm not trying to pick on his situation only, rather the whole issue of buying stuff for your team as a student.

 

[tdram]

Easy folks, I understand what he's saying. No need to have your jimmies rustled. What's wrong with providing a contradicting viewpoint, as someone who's worked with overworked residents/fellows who dislike these gestures? I'm not trying to pick on his situation only, rather the whole issue of buying stuff for your team as a student.

I am just perplexed why anyone would find a simple act of kindness unwelcome. The guy bought the resident a cookie, he didn't buy her a car, for god's sakes. Should we just not be grateful for each other's time and effort in helping us because we may appear to be 'bribing' ?

 

[DermViser]

Easy folks, I understand what he's saying. No need to have your jimmies rustled. What's wrong with providing a contradicting viewpoint, as someone who's worked with overworked residents/fellows who dislike these gestures? I'm not trying to pick on his situation only, rather the whole issue of buying stuff for your team as a student.

You may have missed this part: "It was because our hospital cafeteria had these amazing warm chocolate chip cookies. I had gotten out of my day's cases, and the fellow had been working for something like 36 straight hours and was still in the OR. I was getting a cookie for myself and I thought I should get one for her too. I just left them at her desk".

If he was a grade grubber, he would have made sure to wait there to be sure that she and only she got the cookie to get the credit.

 

[tdram]

You may have missed this part: "It was because our hospital cafeteria had these amazing warm chocolate chip cookies. I had gotten out of my day's cases, and the fellow had been working for something like 36 straight hours and was still in the OR. I was getting a cookie for myself and I thought I should get one for her too. I just left them at her desk".

If he was a grade grubber, he would have made sure to wait there to be sure that she and only she got the cookie to get the credit.

I agree. I think this sort of thing should be considered normal behavior and thinking of it as "grade grubbing" is ridiculous. This is how decent human beings should be treating each other. The fact that some people think a cookie is a bribe is sad.

 

[DermViser]

I agree. I think this sort of thing should be considered normal behavior and thinking of it as "grade grubbing" is ridiculous. This is how decent human beings should be treating each other. The fact that some people think a cookie is a bribe is sad.

Maybe he thinks SouthernIM stayed there and gave her the look "You owe me," after she ate the cookie, before leaving.

 

[KinasePro]

You may have missed this part: "It was because our hospital cafeteria had these amazing warm chocolate chip cookies. I had gotten out of my day's cases, and the fellow had been working for something like 36 straight hours and was still in the OR. I was getting a cookie for myself and I thought I should get one for her too. I just left them at her desk".

If he was a grade grubber, he would have made sure to wait there to be sure that she and only she got the cookie to get the credit.

Again, "I'm not trying to pick on his situation only, rather the whole issue of buying stuff for your team as a student." I'm not going to nitpick his scenario, because most of my comments are clearly aimed at the larger topic at hand, not his experience in particular.

I agree. I think this sort of thing should be considered normal behavior and thinking of it as "grade grubbing" is ridiculous. This is how decent human beings should be treating each other. The fact that some people think a cookie is a bribe is sad.

It's more that some people (esp surgical subspecialty fellows) often don't like charity from med students, but this clearly isn't always the case. No need to bring out the pitch forks, I'm just sharing an alternate perspective expressed by a similar group of people who work those hours at my institution.

 

[DermViser]

It's more that some people (i.e. surgical subspecialty fellows) don't like charity from med students. No need to bring out the pitch forks, I'm just sharing an alternate perspective expressed by a similar group of people who work those hours at my institution.

Idk maybe surgical subspecialty fellows are different than general surgery residents.

 

[KnuxNole]

Honestly, I would HATE to work those hours. I already feel zombie-fied doing overnight 24 call. Seeing milk and cookies while I am crying/dying on the inside might make me feel better, but that's just me *shrug*

 

[sobored]

It's more that some people (esp surgical subspecialty fellows) don't like charity from med students. No need to bring out the pitch forks, I'm just sharing an alternate perspective expressed by a similar group of people who work those hours at my institution.

Considering the act described as "charity" is sad. It's just a freaking person doing something a little nice for someone else. If residents/fellows are that cynical all the time, I feel bad for them. Blatant ass-kissing is definitely annoying and people can sniff it out, but this person's gesture was totally innocuous.

 

[KinasePro]

Maybe he thinks SouthernIM stayed there and gave her the look "You owe me," after she ate the cookie, before leaving.

Yeah, that's what I think alright.

Considering the act described as "charity" is sad. It's just a freaking person doing something a little nice for someone else. If residents/fellows are that cynical all the time, I feel bad for them. Blatant ass-kissing is definitely annoying and people can sniff it out, but this person's gesture was totally innocuous.

Why's it sad? Again, it's the natural order in the professional hierarchy. In my old career, I couldn't buy any of my bosses coffee if my life depended on it. They wouldn't accept it without repaying me in multiple. It's not some tragic flaw in humanity, its just an artifact of the hierarchy. Relax.

 

[tdram]

It's more that some people (esp surgical subspecialty fellows) often don't like charity from med students, but this clearly isn't always the case. No need to bring out the pitch forks, I'm just sharing an alternate perspective expressed by a similar group of people who work those hours at my institution.

Well that's unfortunate. Those people sound miserable.

 

[sobored]

Yeah, that's what I think alright.



Why's it sad? Again, it's the natural order in the professional hierarchy. In my old career, I couldn't buy any of my bosses coffee if my life depended on it. They wouldn't accept it without repaying me in multiple. It's not some tragic flaw in humanity, its just an artifact of the hierarchy. Relax.

No one in this entire thread ever disagreed with this professional hierarchy stuff you're talking about. I'm not saying people should buy their bosses meals, drinks, stuff or whatever. It was a simple act of kindness from one person to another. I don't like people buying me things at all, but I think anyone can appreciate a genuine, nice gesture. Why else is it appropriate to send a thank you note/email to your interviewers? To suck up or because you appreciate their time?

I think we agree on most of this issue. But I don't agree with your hardline view that any act of kindness from student to boss is inappropriate.

 

[KinasePro]

No one in this entire thread ever disagreed with this professional hierarchy stuff you're talking about. I'm not saying people should buy their bosses meals, drinks, stuff or whatever. It was a simple act of kindness from one person to another. I don't like people buying me things at all, but I think anyone can appreciate a genuine, nice gesture. Why else is it appropriate to send a thank you note/email to your interviewers? To suck up or because you appreciate their time?

I think we agree on most of this issue. But I don't agree with your hardline view that any act of kindness from student to boss is inappropriate.

That's a strawman in bold. Kindness is obv great, but I'm not talking about general "acts of kindness," I'm talking about buying them food and drink.

 

[operaman]

What's impossible to convey in this medium is the attitude behind any particular action.

I too have done various acts of kindness for those I work with and it has never been perceived badly, and to this day I count many of my former residents as friends and even many of my former attendings. I'm sure things I've done could have been taken the wrong way, but they weren't because of my attitude and my ability to read the situation. It would take too long to detail the particulars that make one thing welcomed and another similar thing spurned, so maybe this is easier: If you possess self awareness and an ability to read the room, then do as you like. If you don't, better play it safe.

Either way, consistent hard work is appreciated more than anything. Bringing donuts may be read the wrong way in some cases, but getting there early and busting arse prerounding so the team ultimately finishes rounds 20-30minutes early and everyone can get breakfast before the OR: always a win. Staying on top of the service and catching little things that lead to patients getting discharged earlier: winning again. Helping the intern/junior finish things up on the floor faster so he/she can get some OR time: always appreciated.

Can't ever go wrong with good old fashioned hard work.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

What's impossible to convey in this medium is the attitude behind any particular action.

I too have done various acts of kindness for those I work with and it has never been perceived badly, and to this day I count many of my former residents as friends and even many of my former attendings. I'm sure things I've done could have been taken the wrong way, but they weren't because of my attitude and my ability to read the situation. It would take too long to detail the particulars that make one thing welcomed and another similar thing spurned, so maybe this is easier: If you possess self awareness and an ability to read the room, then do as you like. If you don't, better play it safe.

Yes, exactly.

I've already tried to convey my reading of the person/situation, but I guess it didn't take.

It was not a big deal. I never once thought it would be misinterpreted at the time, because I knew the person involved would appreciate it.

 

[Phloston]

It's okay. There's nothing wrong with fawning.

 

[Phloston]

Buying me new shoes would impress me, a student who does that gets an instant 100% 😛

Thanks for the input. Doubly noted.

 

[PL198]

What's impossible to convey in this medium is the attitude behind any particular action.

I too have done various acts of kindness for those I work with and it has never been perceived badly, and to this day I count many of my former residents as friends and even many of my former attendings. I'm sure things I've done could have been taken the wrong way, but they weren't because of my attitude and my ability to read the situation. It would take too long to detail the particulars that make one thing welcomed and another similar thing spurned, so maybe this is easier: If you possess self awareness and an ability to read the room, then do as you like. If you don't, better play it safe.

Either way, consistent hard work is appreciated more than anything. Bringing donuts may be read the wrong way in some cases, but getting there early and busting arse prerounding so the team ultimately finishes rounds 20-30minutes early and everyone can get breakfast before the OR: always a win. Staying on top of the service and catching little things that lead to patients getting discharged earlier: winning again. Helping the intern/junior finish things up on the floor faster so he/she can get some OR time: always appreciated.

Can't ever go wrong with good old fashioned hard work.

This. If you work hard and are truly genuine, 999/1000 your actions will be taken the right way.

 

[Señor S]

That's a strawman in bold. Kindness is obv great, but I'm not talking about general "acts of kindness," I'm talking about buying them food and drink.

Why do you keep prattling on about this? Obviously the appropriateness is situational. In most cases it isn't appropriate to buy things for one's superiors, but sometimes it may be appreciated. As with almost any other form of social interaction, there are no categorical rules that are valid 100% of the time, and southernIM made clear that this was an exceptional case that he recognized as such.

 

[Promethean]

Sure, but I'd put my money on most being annoyed, some being polite and feigning gratitude, and a small minority accepting your charity with enthusiasm.

For example, people working 36+hr shifts sent me to buy them coffee a few times on my rotations, but they insisted I buy myself lunch with their money before I came back. This is typical behavior from someone who is above you in the hierarchy. When you try to reverse this role it comes across weird, and makes the person above you feel like they're not doing their job, you pity them, or you're sucking up. It's the same reason why in other industries your boss always buys your lunch/ coffee/ drink when you're out together, and your coworker who's buying lunch/ coffee/ drinks for your boss will earn a few raised eyebrows.

"I buy, you fly" i.e I pay for yours if you go get mine, too, is an acceptable arrangement in either direction of a hierarchical relationship, in my opinion. It is an essentially egalitarian arrangement because both parties are putting something into the deal. No one is being just sent on an errand without recompense nor is anyone paying for something without getting something themselves. It is more commonly offered that the higher ranked person do the buying, but that is as much because the lower ranked person generally has a little more freedom of movement in clinical settings.

As for the cookie and milk left on the desk for the fellow... I think that was a well played gesture that any of the docs I work with would appreciate after a 36 hour stretch. No matter how far up the chain you are, it is nice to know that someone thought of you when you are exhausted and famished. If it were repeated, or more elaborate, it might look brown-nosy. But as described, it seems like a perfectly human gesture of support, and it sounds as if it was well received.

 

[Wordead]

What is wrong with yall? If someone brings me cookies and coffee, I'm not rolling my eyes no matter how much of an obvious suck up they are. Who cares? I like having my ass kissed. I'm not gonna grade anyone better because of it, but to actually downgrade someone for it is mind boggling.

 

[Kaustikos]

That's a strawman in bold. Kindness is obv great, but I'm not talking about general "acts of kindness," I'm talking about buying them food and drink.

Food and drinks? So if I buy you a happy meal at McDonald's, you'll think I'm sucking up? Here's the Kaus method of buying people coffee:
a) Oh, hey, the team has to go to clinic straight from the OR! But they let me take a break because I'm a med student... Well, there's some coffee here.
b) Woah, that fellow let me assist in closing this kid and was so ****ing patient! THANK YOU - Coffee
c) I'm coming in later/from class - team is upstairs doing consults/notes in the morning. Text - You guys want coffee?
d) This has happened frequently (understandably) - we're leaving the team room/OR and the resident doesn't have his wallet because it's in his locker/etc all the way in BFT.

So, in other words, I do it out of convenience. I'm not breaking the bank buying coffee. The only thing I've never done is do that whole "Goodbye coffee and breakfast". That's just not me. At all.

Regarding grading - the sooner you stop giving a **** about it, the sooner you'll get better. There are worse things that can happen to you in 3rd year than getting a "P". Trust me.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Food and drinks? So if I buy you a happy meal at McDonald's, you'll think I'm sucking up? Here's the Kaus method of buying people coffee:
a) Oh, hey, the team has to go to clinic straight from the OR! But they let me take a break because I'm a med student... Well, there's some coffee here.
b) Woah, that fellow let me assist in closing this kid and was so ******* patient! THANK YOU - Coffee
c) I'm coming in later/from class - team is upstairs doing consults/notes in the morning. Text - You guys want coffee?
d) This has happened frequently (understandably) - we're leaving the team room/OR and the resident doesn't have his wallet because it's in his locker/etc all the way in BFT.

So, in other words, I do it out of convenience. I'm not breaking the bank buying coffee. The only thing I've never done is do that whole "Goodbye coffee and breakfast". That's just not me. At all.

Regarding grading - the sooner you stop giving a **** about it, the sooner you'll get better. There are worse things that can happen to you in 3rd year than getting a "P". Trust me.

Oftentimes on surgery, whatever warm body on the team can make it to the caf is responsible for getting food for everyone...

 

[mimelim]

What is wrong with yall? If someone brings me cookies and coffee, I'm not rolling my eyes no matter how much of an obvious suck up they are. Who cares? I like having my ass kissed. I'm not gonna grade anyone better because of it, but to actually downgrade someone for it is mind boggling.

There is a pretty good reason they stopped big pharma from buying physicians stuff.

 

[alpinism]

Slow clap if you brought her home the next night

Heh heh heh.

She was an awesome fellow...but she was not what you'd call...attractive

What happened to all that sympathy?

You know what she really needed...

 

[KinasePro]

Strange that I'm rustling jimmies left and right in this thread, just by providing counter point. Must've hit a nerve.

Why do you keep prattling on about this? Obviously the appropriateness is situational. In most cases it isn't appropriate to buy things for one's superiors, but sometimes it may be appreciated. As with almost any other form of social interaction, there are no categorical rules that are valid 100% of the time, and southernIM made clear that this was an exceptional case that he recognized as such.

Why wouldn't I defend myself against a straw man argument? No one likes having words put in their mouth.

I've already tried to convey my reading of the person/situation, but I guess it didn't take.

I understand your point, which is why I've clarified that I'm not trying to attack you in particular, rather I'm commenting on the the greater topic at hand. That said, I think a lot of people (clearly not your fellow, though) view these things as brown nosing. You said yourself that you felt bad for her--- do you think most uber-busy residents/fellows want you to feel bad for them?

Food and drinks? So if I buy you a happy meal at McDonald's, you'll think I'm sucking up? Here's the Kaus method of buying people coffee:
a) Oh, hey, the team has to go to clinic straight from the OR! But they let me take a break because I'm a med student... Well, there's some coffee here.
b) Woah, that fellow let me assist in closing this kid and was so ******* patient! THANK YOU - Coffee
c) I'm coming in later/from class - team is upstairs doing consults/notes in the morning. Text - You guys want coffee?
d) This has happened frequently (understandably) - we're leaving the team room/OR and the resident doesn't have his wallet because it's in his locker/etc all the way in BFT.

So, in other words, I do it out of convenience. I'm not breaking the bank buying coffee. The only thing I've never done is do that whole "Goodbye coffee and breakfast". That's just not me. At all.

Regarding grading - the sooner you stop giving a **** about it, the sooner you'll get better. There are worse things that can happen to you in 3rd year than getting a "P". Trust me.

I'm not worried about grades and I don't think twice about this stuff outside of random SDN threads like this. Whatever works for you is great, more power to you. But I've seen plenty students get the eye roll for this sort of thing. That's all I'm trying to say. Everyone in this thread is trying to convince themselves that they'll always get the benefit of the doubt if their intentions are good, but people are sensitive to this stuff because of hierarchy. Maybe my institution is just more traditional than most, but I doubt it.

 

[DermViser]

There is a pretty good reason they stopped big pharma from buying physicians stuff.

Bc of "studies" that showed that they thought it had a correlation with prescribing habits - sponsored by people who were trying to essentially put their opinions in a published paper.. Not to mention AMSA's FreePharm campaign. Reality and correlation are not always true.