Can medical students/doctors still have happy families outside of the hospital?

[abc234]

I'm thinking about going to medical school, but whenever I tell anyone, they say, "Are you sure?! You won't have time for anything else!" or "All the doctors I know are miserable and overworked!" or "How on earth will you have a family?"

I'm a girl, and I want to have kids someday (and stay home with them--maybe work part time). I also really want to be a doctor. I love science and I don't want to give this up because of what everyone's telling me. Am I being really unrealistic to plan on being a doctor AND having a family?

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[EyEnStein 07]

I'm thinking about going to medical school, but whenever I tell anyone, they say, "Are you sure?! You won't have time for anything else!" or "All the doctors I know are miserable and overworked!" or "How on earth will you have a family?"

I'm a girl, and I want to have kids someday (and stay home with them--maybe work part time). I also really want to be a doctor. I love science and I don't want to give this up because of what everyone's telling me. Am I being really unrealistic to plan on being a doctor AND having a family?

Then dont, why are you listening to people? How do you know they dont want to eliminate the competition because they know you might make it. Screw what other people think.

This is why you shadow doctors, so you can see there lifestyle. Sure times will be rough DURING medical school. Maybe you will get married before, and if not, you can settle after your done with med school and residencies.

to answer your question, ofcourse doctors have happy families outside of the hospital. As for medical students, its hard to say. It depends on the person, just know tons of studying is required...how else will you expect to be a good doctor?

 

[GoodmanBrown]

Then dont, why are you listening to people? How do you know they dont want to eliminate the competition because they know you might make it. Screw what other people think.

This is why you shadow doctors, so you can see there lifestyle. Sure times will be rough DURING medical school. Maybe you will get married before, and if not, you can settle after your done with med school and residencies.

to answer your question, of course doctors have happy families outside of the hospital. As for medical students, its hard to say. It depends on the person, just know tons of studying is required...how else will you expect to be a good doctor?

As opposed to ignoring these people, I recommend listening to them. The honest to god truth is that most doctors work quite a bit. I've shadowed a lot of them, and most of them are busy people.

Please do not think that medical school is your only busy period. In fact, from what I've heard, it's actually a more relaxed time. Residency will strain any family b/c most residents work close to the maximum 80-hours per week. After that, they study for in-service tests that you must pass to progress in residency. These involve lots of time reading outside of work. You have your hands full.

Finally, even after residency, most physicians still work 50-60 hours per week. My PCP that I shadowed still works on Saturdays to keep up with his load. He's 10 years out of residency.

Part-time work is possible, but you have to realize that not every hospital/practice wants part time workers. You still usually want all the perks (health insurance, 401(k), life insurance, malpractice, etc.) that a full-time doc gets, but you only want 1/2 the hours.

Yes, in the end, there are specialties or jobs that are less hours, but don't expect to be working 20-30 hours/wk right out of residency, unless you're willing to move anywhere in the US and take a steep paycut. With loans and a family, it just might not be doable.

So, that's a bundle of bad news, but you have to really ponder it. I've agonized for a few years about med school for these very reasons. It's a choice you have to make. If family is more important than work, perhaps being an RN or a PA (physician assistant) would suit you better. I'm still considering the PA route, though less so now than a year ago. For both of those, the schooling is shorter (though only slightly less demanding), and there are more positions that might not require full-time work. For an RN especially, part-time is possible at a wide variety of places.

 

[WatchMeRise]

A couple of my uncles are doctors, and they seem to balance life and fatherhood pretty well.

But when I asked my aunts how they felt about having a husband who is always on call, one of them told me It sucks, and she just has to deal with it.

The truth is, if you really want to be the mother who actually has 'enough' time to raise her children (like most house mothers), being a doctor would cut the narrow line somewhere near: "Just enough time" and "Could use more time with family". But that's pretty much any occupation eh?

There are plenty of physicians out there who are mothers and fathers.
Take the medical path if you WANT to. No reason you shouldn't.

(But don't take my words to heart. I'm not a mother, Nor a doctor.)

 

[45408]

Some specialties are NOT conducive to being a mother. I've seen tons and tons of pregnant nurses, several pregnant medicine residents, a few pregnant peds residents, a pregnant OB/GYN attending....and I don't know a single female surgery resident who has a child. Yes, of course they exist, but I don't know any. For that matter, I only know of one female surgeon with a child, and she waited until she was in her late 30s to have any kids.

One of my classmates had a baby during 3rd year, and I ran into her last month on her surgery rotation. She says it sucks not seeing her child hardly ever. It CAN be done, but there will be significant sacrifice.

 

[Charmed2009]

No offense meant, but I think I can speak most accurately to this as I am both a mother and medical student (soon to be Ob/Gyn resident).

You CAN have a happy home life and a happy professional life. It just takes sacrifice on both ends and realistic expectations from the get-go. I have to accept the fact that I will be working long hours in residency, but like all things "this too shall pass" and my hours will be better once I am finished with my training. I plan to go into REI which has a much better lifestyle than general Ob/Gyn, FWIW.

As has been quoted in the past, "don't let the b*stards get you down."

You will meet naysayers (usually people who aren't women/married/physicians) but be true to yourself, your husband, and your future family. My husband reminds me that we only have one trip around the block, so to speak, so I need to pursue my professional goals. He and I spend quality time with our daughter and strive to lead a balanced life. Medical school has been enriching, challenging, stressful, and (most of all) doable.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions. Best of luck!

 

[seelee]

I am sure that a lot of people will roast me for this.

It depends on what your definition of a mother is. I view a mother as the person primarily responsible for the care and nurturing of the children. I think that this is a supremely important and exalting roll, and that too little emphasis is put on it.

I also know that it is a full time job.

I heard a talk given by a female physician who spoke on being a mother and a doctor. Keep in mind that she was speaking positively on the subject. She talked about having to leave her infant in a daycare after 8 weeks maternity leave so she could go back and complete her residency (working 80 hours a week). She commented on how hard it was to never see her baby. Her kids were essentially raise by other people their entire childhood. At the end of her talk she said, "If my kids really needed me, then I would give it up in a second." My response to this was "are you saying that your kids don't need you?"

If you want to have kids and be a doctor, then your children are going to be raised by strangers in a daycare (unless your husband stays home). I don't see how you can be a mother when 80 hours of your week you are away from your children. I don't see how you can be a mother when the first people your child goes to for a question is some daycare worker or public school teacher. I don't see how you can be a mother when the person who instills morals in your child is an hourly employee. Maybe my definition is skewed.

Let the flame war begin.

 

[Narmerguy]

Am I being really unrealistic to plan on being a doctor AND having a family?

No. Despite all the whining that goes on at these forums, there is a reason people keep coming to medicine and staying. If they had to sacrifice everything else they'd find better alternatives. Don't worry, just focus on doing well once you make it to medical school and you'll have a lot more options to make your family life even better. Some specialties have a lot more time for that than others but irregardless of where you end up, you can have a family life.

 

[RySerr21]

i plan on being damn happy during medical school. Being unhappy sucks. If I didnt think I was going to be happy then I would be doing this crazy ****. I also plan on having a family. So what does this mean? Ive been re thinking my career options. I know i have a long way to go, but i can still think about it. Maybe a life as an orthopedic surgeon isn't one that i want. Sure the job sounds great to me, but the lifestyle....not so much. So i need to find ways to balance those two and im hoping that I will find the specialty that does that.

 

[Charmed2009]

I don't see how you can be a mother when 80 hours of your week you are away from your children. I don't see how you can be a mother when the first people your child goes to for a question is some daycare worker or public school teacher. I don't see how you can be a mother when the person who instills morals in your child is an hourly employee.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you are male, because quite frankly it must be easy for you to say these things when you have a penis, aren't even in medical school (WTH) and have absolutely NO idea how strong the bond is between mother and child (you can't - you can't carry a child in your womb and therefore can never know). Your self-righteous and judgmental attitude is nausea-inducing. How dare you tell me that I cannot be a mother to my child because I choose not to be a stay at home mom. Why don't you grow a uterus, bear children, and then face giving up all of your professional dreams - the decision does not have to be one or the other. A healthy balance can be achieved.

You point of view is outdated, immature, and unrealistic. JUST BECAUSE FEMALE PHYSICIANS MUST COMPLETE RESIDENCY TRAINING DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY ARE NEGLIGENT PARENTS, NOR DOES IT MEAN THAT THEY WILL WORK 80 HOURS PER WEEK FOR THE REST OF THEIR CAREERS.

How dare you assume that my child will "go to some daycare worker" for a question before her own mother, or suggest than an "hourly employee" will instill morals in my child. I have MANY mentors who are female physicians, with children (one specifically who has a physician husband), and they have wonderfully balanced lives. I know their children, and they love their parents. Their parents (SHOCK) help them with their homework, attend softball games, go to church on Sunday, tuck them into bed at night, listen to their children's hopes and dreams, discipline them, etc. etc. Their children respect and look up to their mothers. As attendings, these mother/physicians work normal hours.

To all the women out there hoping to go into medicine and have a family - don't let closed-minded people like seelee deter you. Find a mentor who can help you through this journey and lend you support when others doubt your dreams. My daughter knows her mother - she flashes her toothless grin at me when I come home and lets me know that she's happy. We share a bond that no one can take away from me, and I look forward to fulfilling both my personal and private dreams.

 

[Gallix23]

-snip-.

Wow...I'm a guy and that even inspired me. You seem like a very driven and determined person, which is awesome.

And my mother, when I was born, was still in training for different nursing degrees and always worked crazy hours, night shifts, always on call, etc. etc. I know it's different, but I still got to see her a ton, and now that she has done all of that she makes an even better salary and works better schedules than she use to. Everything pays off in time, and my mother tells me to this day that she wishes that she had just become an MD. Don't let fear deter you from your dreams and goals, because in the end, it'll all work out.

 

[seelee]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you are male, because quite frankly it must be easy for you to say these things when you have a penis, aren't even in medical school (WTH) and have absolutely NO idea how strong the bond is between mother and child (you can't - you can't carry a child in your womb and therefore can never know). Your self-righteous and judgmental attitude is nausea-inducing. How dare you tell me that I cannot be a mother to my child because I choose not to be a stay at home mom. Why don't you grow a uterus, bear children, and then face giving up all of your professional dreams - the decision does not have to be one or the other. A healthy balance can be achieved.

You point of view is outdated, immature, and unrealistic. JUST BECAUSE FEMALE PHYSICIANS MUST COMPLETE RESIDENCY TRAINING DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY ARE NEGLIGENT PARENTS, NOR DOES IT MEAN THAT THEY WILL WORK 80 HOURS PER WEEK FOR THE REST OF THEIR CAREERS.

How dare you assume that my child will "go to some daycare worker" for a question before her own mother, or suggest than an "hourly employee" will instill morals in my child. I have MANY mentors who are female physicians, with children (one specifically who has a physician husband), and they have wonderfully balanced lives. I know their children, and they love their parents. Their parents (SHOCK) help them with their homework, attend softball games, go to church on Sunday, tuck them into bed at night, listen to their children's hopes and dreams, discipline them, etc. etc. Their children respect and look up to their mothers. As attendings, these mother/physicians work normal hours.

To all the women out there hoping to go into medicine and have a family - don't let closed-minded people like seelee deter you. Find a mentor who can help you through this journey and lend you support when others doubt your dreams. My daughter knows her mother - she flashes her toothless grin at me when I come home and lets me know that she's happy. We share a bond that no one can take away from me, and I look forward to fulfilling both my personal and private dreams.

Wow, must've touched a nerve. Feeling a little guilty are we? You know what they say, the dog that yelps is the one that got hit.

 

[Charmed2009]

Wow, must've touched a nerve. Feeling a little guilty are we? You know what they say, the dog that yelps is the one that got hit.

Yes, you touched a nerve, as this thread (and your post) is one in a long line of similarly-ridiculous responses to the issue of family in medicine.

I feel like I'm a broken record - there is another thread just like this one in the general residency forum, FYI. The only reason why I don't completely ignore ignorant posters like you is because I want the future female physicians of this board to feel empowered and optimistic about their future families.

Unlike others (such as yourself), I have "been there, done that" as well as witnessed much happiness in families with female physicians.

 

[Contentablue]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you are male, because quite frankly it must be easy for you to say these things when you have a penis, aren't even in medical school (WTH) and have absolutely NO idea how strong the bond is between mother and child (you can't - you can't carry a child in your womb and therefore can never know). Your self-righteous and judgmental attitude is nausea-inducing. How dare you tell me that I cannot be a mother to my child because I choose not to be a stay at home mom. Why don't you grow a uterus, bear children, and then face giving up all of your professional dreams - the decision does not have to be one or the other. A healthy balance can be achieved.

You point of view is outdated, immature, and unrealistic. JUST BECAUSE FEMALE PHYSICIANS MUST COMPLETE RESIDENCY TRAINING DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY ARE NEGLIGENT PARENTS, NOR DOES IT MEAN THAT THEY WILL WORK 80 HOURS PER WEEK FOR THE REST OF THEIR CAREERS.

How dare you assume that my child will "go to some daycare worker" for a question before her own mother, or suggest than an "hourly employee" will instill morals in my child. I have MANY mentors who are female physicians, with children (one specifically who has a physician husband), and they have wonderfully balanced lives. I know their children, and they love their parents. Their parents (SHOCK) help them with their homework, attend softball games, go to church on Sunday, tuck them into bed at night, listen to their children's hopes and dreams, discipline them, etc. etc. Their children respect and look up to their mothers. As attendings, these mother/physicians work normal hours.

To all the women out there hoping to go into medicine and have a family - don't let closed-minded people like seelee deter you. Find a mentor who can help you through this journey and lend you support when others doubt your dreams. My daughter knows her mother - she flashes her toothless grin at me when I come home and lets me know that she's happy. We share a bond that no one can take away from me, and I look forward to fulfilling both my personal and private dreams.

I applaud you. Seriously. The other post-er can take a hike.

 

[EyEnStein 07]

As opposed to ignoring these people, I recommend listening to them. The honest to god truth is that most doctors work quite a bit. I've shadowed a lot of them, and most of them are busy people.

Please do not think that medical school is your only busy period. In fact, from what I've heard, it's actually a more relaxed time. Residency will strain any family b/c most residents work close to the maximum 80-hours per week. After that, they study for in-service tests that you must pass to progress in residency. These involve lots of time reading outside of work. You have your hands full.

Finally, even after residency, most physicians still work 50-60 hours per week. My PCP that I shadowed still works on Saturdays to keep up with his load. He's 10 years out of residency.

Part-time work is possible, but you have to realize that not every hospital/practice wants part time workers. You still usually want all the perks (health insurance, 401(k), life insurance, malpractice, etc.) that a full-time doc gets, but you only want 1/2 the hours.

Yes, in the end, there are specialties or jobs that are less hours, but don't expect to be working 20-30 hours/wk right out of residency, unless you're willing to move anywhere in the US and take a steep paycut. With loans and a family, it just might not be doable.

So, that's a bundle of bad news, but you have to really ponder it. I've agonized for a few years about med school for these very reasons. It's a choice you have to make. If family is more important than work, perhaps being an RN or a PA (physician assistant) would suit you better. I'm still considering the PA route, though less so now than a year ago. For both of those, the schooling is shorter (though only slightly less demanding), and there are more positions that might not require full-time work. For an RN especially, part-time is possible at a wide variety of places.

The latter of what you say makes sense, the first part i dont disagree with as much. The OP "really wants" to be a doctor. Why would what people say especially when its negative be something worth following. Listening is ok, as long as you get the facts straight when you shadow docs and do more research. Based solely on what people tell you for why one should or should not enter a field they "really want to" is wrong.

Maybe your preception of "busy" and "long" is what the OP might feel do-able while having a family. Im sure the OP knows that she wont be able to be a doctor and baby sit her kids 12 hours a day, but i think she just wants to know that there will be some sort of family time. But ofcourse sacrifices will have to be made, to the extent of which noone knows (atleast i dont), i just know it can be done.

Like i said, im sure every doctor dedicates time to there children. I also mentioned that it might be in OPs best interest to get married before starting medical school, which i still stand to. This is because between all the things that GoodmanBrown posted, im not sure she will have that much time to devote to getting married and all. But ofcourse, will OP be ok if she got married during medical school and had children during medical school? I very much think so.

 

[GoodmanBrown]

Yes, you touched a nerve, as this thread (and your post) is one in a long line of similarly-ridiculous responses to the issue of family in medicine.

I feel like I'm a broken record - there is another thread just like this one in the general residency forum, FYI. The only reason why I don't completely ignore ignorant posters like you is because I want the future female physicians of this board to feel empowered and optimistic about their future families.

Unlike others (such as yourself), I have "been there, done that" as well as witnessed much happiness in families with female physicians.

As a side note, the poster's location is Provo, UT, which is home to Brigham Young Univ. which is a Mormon university. Thus, using my amazing powers of Sherlockian logic, I'm guessing selee is Mormon. So, male or female, the view of the poster may need to be taken with a grain of salt per his/her background. But flame on, if desired.

 

[GoodmanBrown]

The latter of what you say makes sense, the first part i dont disagree with as much. The OP "really wants" to be a doctor. Why would what people say especially when its negative be something worth following. Listening is ok, as long as you get the facts straight when you shadow docs and do more research. Based solely on what people tell you for why one should or should not enter a field they "really want to" is wrong.

Maybe your preception of "busy" and "long" is what the OP might feel do-able while having a family. Im sure the OP knows that she wont be able to be a doctor and baby sit her kids 12 hours a day, but i think she just wants to know that there will be some sort of family time. But ofcourse sacrifices will have to be made, to the extent of which noone knows (atleast i dont), i just know it can be done.

Like i said, im sure every doctor dedicates time to there children. I also mentioned that it might be in OPs best interest to get married before starting medical school, which i still stand to. This is because between all the things that GoodmanBrown posted, im not sure she will have that much time to devote to getting married and all. But ofcourse, will OP be ok if she got married during medical school and had children during medical school? I very much think so.

I don't think we actually disagree in our advice much. I'm just saying it's a bad idea to go along with the idea that those people's advice is untrue and devious.

Both medicine and families take a lot of time. Continually they do. The actual wedding is a busy, but the marriage is probably just as much so. If you want a strong marriage, plan to spend time with your husband/wife. You can't just skip dinner or spend every evening in the library anymore because the other person will start to feel neglected. Double that for a baby/child.

I'm definitely not telling the OP to drop her medical ambitions or not have a family. I plan on doing both as well. (I'm already married and applying for med school this summer. No kids yet.) I'm just saying, there's no real "hump," after which life will be peaches and cream. Every day will be busy, and every day will have compromises and sacrifices for you and your family. That's the price you pay if you want both things.

 

[seelee]

Isn't it hiilarious how I try to make a point and everyone comes at me with emotional ad hominem attacks. He's just a male, mormon, sexist, bigot, who isn't even in medical school yet.

For the record, I am a 28 year old student at BYU (Go Cougars!). Married, with three children. I work and study while my wife stays home with the children (one of the most important jobs IMO). I have been accepted to a Texas medical school, starting in the fall.s

Bottom line, my opinion is not that women can't be doctors. My opinion is that if you want to be a mother, you should do everything you can to be with your children, especially when they are very young. If you want to be a doctor, then it will almost assuredly mean that someone else will be raising your children, be it the father (best case) or a nanny, or day care worker. It is my opinion, and you can take it for what it's worth, that the best influence a young child can have is his/her mother. In fact, studies have shown that children who's primary caretaker during their pre-school years is their mother excel in practically every category over those who are in day-care.

Consider this, if the OP had asked if it was possible to be a full time trial lawyer and do medical school, residency, etc. most would have discouraged her saying that the time constraints would make it impossible. However, being a mother isn't that hard because we can hire other people to do it for us right? Is being a mother easier or less time consuming than being a lawyer or any other professional job? If your answer is yes, then I hope that you don't have children.

Ultimately, the choice is yours. I am sure that there are plenty of women who are doctors, who have children. And those children are healthy and well-balanced. My argument is that if you really want to be a mother, then why not devote all your time and energy to it? Why not make the sacrifices necessary so that you can be the best possible influence for them, especially in this day and age when there are so many negative influences around.

This is my last post on the subject. I am not trying to be trollish. You can take my advice for what it is worth, or you can dismiss me as a hate-filled, mormon, male, penis-head. Good luck with whatever youd decide.

 

[coldweatherblue]

have cake, eat cake, etc.

The truth is that if you try to say something like, "There are only 24 hours in a day and that makes it difficult to be a full-time mom and a surgical intern." in this social climate you will get your head bitten off while everyone stands around clapping. Just accept that there are time portals and if you don't understand that you're a uterus-lacking doo-doo head.

 

[seelee]

have cake, eat cake, etc.

Just accept that there are time portals and if you don't understand that you're a uterus-lacking doo-doo head.

It hurts. But I know that you're only telling me because you love me.

 

[Dr Lyss]

Isn't it hiilarious how I try to make a point and everyone comes at me with emotional ad hominem attacks. He's just a male, mormon, sexist, bigot, who isn't even in medical school yet.

For the record, I am a 28 year old student at BYU (Go Cougars!). Married, with three children. I work and study while my wife stays home with the children (one of the most important jobs IMO). I have been accepted to a Texas medical school, starting in the fall.s

Bottom line, my opinion is not that women can't be doctors. My opinion is that if you want to be a mother, you should do everything you can to be with your children, especially when they are very young. If you want to be a doctor, then it will almost assuredly mean that someone else will be raising your children, be it the father (best case) or a nanny, or day care worker. It is my opinion, and you can take it for what it's worth, that the best influence a young child can have is his/her mother. In fact, studies have shown that children who's primary caretaker during their pre-school years is their mother excel in practically every category over those who are in day-care.

Consider this, if the OP had asked if it was possible to be a full time trial lawyer and do medical school, residency, etc. most would have discouraged her saying that the time constraints would make it impossible. However, being a mother isn't that hard because we can hire other people to do it for us right? Is being a mother easier or less time consuming than being a lawyer or any other professional job? If your answer is yes, then I hope that you don't have children.

Ultimately, the choice is yours. I am sure that there are plenty of women who are doctors, who have children. And those children are healthy and well-balanced. My argument is that if you really want to be a mother, then why not devote all your time and energy to it? Why not make the sacrifices necessary so that you can be the best possible influence for them, especially in this day and age when there are so many negative influences around.

This is my last post on the subject. I am not trying to be trollish. You can take my advice for what it is worth, or you can dismiss me as a hate-filled, mormon, male, penis-head. Good luck with whatever youd decide.

so you believe women shouldn't be doctors at all? wow. So how come fathers are unscathed by your beliefs? Following your line of thinking, it must be impossible to be a good, loving father and work as a physician. So, how do you sleep at night knowing you are a bad dad?

 

[seelee]

so you believe women shouldn't be doctors at all?

You should probably should learn how to read if you want to be a doctor.

I clearly stated that my opinion was NOT that women couldn't be doctors, nor that they shouldn't. But if a women wants to be a mother then she should be prepared to devote the time necessary to it. I believe that a mother's primary role is to raise her children. Raising children requires a lot of time. I don't see how you can raise children and be a doctor at the same time. Either you give up being a doctor, or you have someone else assume responsibility for raising your children (spouse, daycare, etc.)

Please, if you are going to try to refute me, refute arguments that I actually make, and not the ones that you make up in your heads.

 

[Charmed2009]

My argument is that if you really want to be a mother, then why not devote all your time and energy to it?

Is it really that difficult to understand that mothers also want to heal disease, save lives and make a positive impact on this world through medicine?

...And that this profession might actually positively influence my children and help guide their belief system?

Try - just try - to wrap your head around that one.

There is more than one way to be a successful parent. Being a SAHM is one of them - but it is not the only way.

 

[ButImLETired]

Meh, I have more faith in my children's ability to be resilient (and to grow up to be independent) than some of the posters here obviously do. If and when I have children, they'll probably spend quite a bit of time at home with nannies. I'm ok with this- cause I grew up with a nanny, know plenty of people who did, and I'm pretty sure I turned out just fine. Is it a perfect system? Maybe not. But this is not a perfect universe. I have a mind of my own and I've been raised to be very focused and ambitious. Raising children by being home alone with them is an EXTREMELY isolating (and VERY difficult) experience, according to the stay at home moms I've discussed this stuff with. It's really hard to maintain your own identity and feel like a worthwhile member of society (not to mention not feeling like you've "settled") when you're spending all your time at home talking with 4-year-olds. I don't believe it's fair, but more importantly, I don't feel that it's necessary.

Seelee, I wonder, how do you feel about single-family households? Because they make it impossible for a child to have a full-time mom or dad. Part of the reason I think the way I do is that I lost my dad when I was pretty young, and my mom had to work to support my siblings and me. If she hadn't had an education conducive to a well-paying job, a decent resume to fall back on, and an independent mind, she would have never been able to do what she did. So she raised my sisters and me to seek out the same thing: a balance. I know that when I have children, I will be able to support them whether I am married, widowed, or divorced. I feel that I will be a better mother for that reason. I will also be far less likely to resent them for taking away my dream of becoming a doctor, one I've had for my whole life, and this will ALSO make me a better mom. Finally, I'll be able to raise them to be independent and strong and to never depend on others for their livelihood or self-worth- THIS, again, will make me a better mother. There are many ways to be a parent. To say that one is right and another is wrong is simply obtuse.

Edit: incidentally, if I could go back in time and not lose my dad and have a parent around with me all the time, of course I'd take it. I'd also like to be rich and have parents who could afford to pay for med school, and a car. And I wish my parents had allowed me to travel independently more. And I wish they'd made me learn to play the piano when I was young. Moral of the story: you can't be perfect. All you can do is your best and try not to lose yourself in the process. Who knows, maybe if my mom had been at home 24/7 when she really wanted to be working, she would have been awful, and made my life a lot harder. I wouldn't have learned to do my homework because it was MY responsibility, since my parents weren't home to tell me to do it. I wouldn't have learned to research my questions on the encyclopedia instead of just asking my parents for help when I wondered about something. Hell, I wouldn't have learned to cook as well as I do. Most of all, I wouldn't have grown up to believe women can pull off anything if they want to. I think those are pretty amazing lessons to learn.

 

[scarletgirl777]

Isn't it hiilarious how I try to make a point and everyone comes at me with emotional ad hominem attacks. He's just a male, mormon, sexist, bigot, who isn't even in medical school yet.

For the record, I am a 28 year old student at BYU (Go Cougars!). Married, with three children. I work and study while my wife stays home with the children (one of the most important jobs IMO). I have been accepted to a Texas medical school, starting in the fall.s

Bottom line, my opinion is not that women can't be doctors. My opinion is that if you want to be a mother, you should do everything you can to be with your children, especially when they are very young. If you want to be a doctor, then it will almost assuredly mean that someone else will be raising your children, be it the father (best case) or a nanny, or day care worker. It is my opinion, and you can take it for what it's worth, that the best influence a young child can have is his/her mother. In fact, studies have shown that children who's primary caretaker during their pre-school years is their mother excel in practically every category over those who are in day-care.

Consider this, if the OP had asked if it was possible to be a full time trial lawyer and do medical school, residency, etc. most would have discouraged her saying that the time constraints would make it impossible. However, being a mother isn't that hard because we can hire other people to do it for us right? Is being a mother easier or less time consuming than being a lawyer or any other professional job? If your answer is yes, then I hope that you don't have children.

Ultimately, the choice is yours. I am sure that there are plenty of women who are doctors, who have children. And those children are healthy and well-balanced. My argument is that if you really want to be a mother, then why not devote all your time and energy to it? Why not make the sacrifices necessary so that you can be the best possible influence for them, especially in this day and age when there are so many negative influences around.

This is my last post on the subject. I am not trying to be trollish. You can take my advice for what it is worth, or you can dismiss me as a hate-filled, mormon, male, penis-head. Good luck with whatever youd decide.

It's awesome to turn on the "you're just a mormon-hater" switch not to listen to the poster's argument, but as someone who has mormon friends and acquaintances and does not consider herself a mormon hater, i think you're background is highly relevant. I have personally found that a disproportionate number of the mormons i know thought it highly desirable for mothers to be stay at home mothers. Not just through early childhood either but right on up through elementary/middle school. I don't think you can deny that when you come from a culture that believes in this value and believes in women and men having certain roles in society (e.g. only men can be prophets or any officers of the church and this starts from a very early age; only men are required to go on missions, etc) this is going to have an effect on the way you see the world. And since a very small (though growing) portion of the world is Mormon, I think it's very fair to say that your views may not be representative of the rest of the medical profession. Not to say that alone makes them invalid, just to say that most people the OP comes across will probably not have this attitude and that other people may be more accepting of her choices.

EDIT: If the definition of mother is primary caregiver, then what is the definition of father? Sperm donor? I expect the father of my children to contribute equally to raising our kids, running our household, and just generally making our life together.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I think most importantly, other people have no business telling women how to raise their kids. If they feel that they need to be home to personally monitor their childrens' upbringing, good for them for making that sacrifice. If they are fine in having faith that their children can grow up to be independent all on their own with less than 24/7 supervision, then kudos to them for believing in their kids.

It has worked both ways, and it has also failed both ways. Therefore it makes no sense to make a sweeping statement saying that it absolutely is better to do it one way or the other; let a mom choose for her own kids how to raise them.

 

[45408]

Is it really that difficult to understand that mothers also want to heal disease, save lives and make a positive impact on this world through medicine?

...And that this profession might actually positively influence my children and help guide their belief system?

Try - just try - to wrap your head around that one.

There is more than one way to be a successful parent. Being a SAHM is one of them - but it is not the only way.

Try - just try - to be a little less snide in your next post.

 

[seelee]

Ok, let me restate my position and see if it is less controversial.

The primary caretaker of a child is the one who spends the majority of waking hours with the child, prepares meals, teaches, supervises, etc.

If you want to be the primary caretaker of your children (which I and some others believe is best fulfilled by the mother), then being a doctor will be almost impossible. In other words, if you want to be a doctor, and have children, you must accept the fact that you will not be there for the majority of the child's waking hours. Of course, for older children who are in school, this is more or less normal.

I personally feel that having the mother fill this role is the best way to go. However, I am not saying that all mothers who work outside the home are bad mothers. Nor am I saying that all mothers who stay home are good mothers. Nor am I saying that women can't or shouldn't become doctors or have careers. I am saying that the best person to take care of the child, to nurture him/her, and teach him/her (especially in the earliest years of life) is the mother.

To reiterate, if you want to have children and if you want to be their primary caregiver, then being a doctor is impossible.

 

[Charmed2009]

Try - just try - to be a little less snide in your next post.

I'm pretty sure my post wasn't directed toward you.

seelee - I think the best we can do is agree to disagree.

to the OP - PM me if you have any questions or otherwise want advice. Best of luck to you!

 

[Law2Doc]

...
To reiterate, if you want to have children and if you want to be their primary caregiver, then being a doctor is impossible.

Medicine is a full time job, no matter how you slice it. You will be working long hours or you will be making huge sacrifices in terms of your professional career and income. On the flip side, parenting is a full time job. So there will be a constant battle. If you have a spouse that can be the primary caregiver, that makes a huge difference. If you and spouse and both working and are earning enough for a full time, live in, nanny, then that model probably works too, although you give up a lot of control over how the kid is raised or who s/he bonds to as parental figure.

It is a juggling act. Something always gets dropped somewhere along the line. You will either miss out on a lot of the parenting highlights or a lot of the career highlights. Not much you can do about that. You just have to find the balance that works for you. I seem to recall Perri Klass is an author who wrote a few books about becoming a doctor while being a pregnant resident. So there are role models out there. You can do both, just perhaps not as well or seamlessly as you currently might picture.

 

[Terpskins99]

Ok, let me restate my position and see if it is less controversial.

The primary caretaker of a child is the one who spends the majority of waking hours with the child, prepares meals, teaches, supervises, etc.

If you want to be the primary caretaker of your children (which I and some others believe is best fulfilled by the mother), then being a doctor will be almost impossible. In other words, if you want to be a doctor, and have children, you must accept the fact that you will not be there for the majority of the child's waking hours. Of course, for older children who are in school, this is more or less normal.

I personally feel that having the mother fill this role is the best way to go. However, I am not saying that all mothers who work outside the home are bad mothers. Nor am I saying that all mothers who stay home are good mothers. Nor am I saying that women can't or shouldn't become doctors or have careers. I am saying that the best person to take care of the child, to nurture him/her, and teach him/her (especially in the earliest years of life) is the mother.

To reiterate, if you want to have children and if you want to be their primary caregiver, then being a doctor is impossible.

I would pay money to see you attempt to argue this at a medical school interview. I really really would.

 

[seelee]

I would pay money to see you attempt to argue this at a medical school interview. I really really would.

I don't see how it is that controversial. There are so many hours in the day. Being a Doctor requires a majority of them. Being a the primary care giver of a child requires both of them. You cannot do both.

Going back to my previous analogy. If I said that it is impossible to be a full time trial lawyer and a surgical resident, nobody would dispute me.

 

[abc234]

Wow. Thanks for the responses, everyone!

I realize that it's definitely not easy, but is possible to be both a doctor and a wife/mother.

I understand and appreciate the endless benefits of having a stay-at-home mom, because my mom stayed home all throughout my childhood. However, I also know the career goals my mom sacrificed in order to do so. Being a mom is only an 18+ year job (that's not to say that you don't continue to be a mom for your whole life, only that the "primary caregiver" aspect ends when your kids go off to college). What do you do then? I know my mom wishes she'd pursued her dreams so that she could have a job she loved to return to.

It seems to me like the best plan is NOT to forgo your career goals. I plan on having kids after my residency and working part-time (as much as possible) for the large part of their childhoods. And I WILL be their primary caregiver because they will be my first priority. Hopefully, I'll have my family around to be there with them when I cannot. I do think that, in the end, my children will understand my decision not to give up on my career.

 

[seelee]

Wow. Thanks for the responses, everyone!

I realize that it's definitely not easy, but is possible to be both a doctor and a wife/mother.

I understand and appreciate the endless benefits of having a stay-at-home mom, because my mom stayed home all throughout my childhood. However, I also know the career goals my mom sacrificed in order to do so. Being a mom is only an 18+ year job (that's not to say that you don't continue to be a mom for your whole life, only that the "primary caregiver" aspect ends when your kids go off to college). What do you do then? I know my mom wishes she'd pursued her dreams so that she could have a job she loved to return to.

It seems to me like the best plan is NOT to forgo your career goals. I plan on having kids after my residency and working part-time (as much as possible) for the large part of their childhoods. And I WILL be their primary caregiver because they will be my first priority. Hopefully, I'll have my family around to be there with them when I cannot. I do think that, in the end, my children will understand my decision not to give up on my career.

Good luck with that, I hope it works out for you.

 

[Dr Lyss]

You should probably should learn how to read if you want to be a doctor.

I clearly stated that my opinion was NOT that women couldn't be doctors, nor that they shouldn't. But if a women wants to be a mother then she should be prepared to devote the time necessary to it. I believe that a mother's primary role is to raise her children. Raising children requires a lot of time. I don't see how you can raise children and be a doctor at the same time. Either you give up being a doctor, or you have someone else assume responsibility for raising your children (spouse, daycare, etc.)

Please, if you are going to try to refute me, refute arguments that I actually make, and not the ones that you make up in your heads.

my apologies. Let me rephrase. So, you believe women with children shouldn't be doctors? My previous question still stands. I wasn't refuting your argument. I'm actually building upon your own logic to show how ridiculous it is. So, again, what role do fathers have in raising children? Are they not necessary to properly raise a children or should being a physician not be an option men too since they will not be able to be a full time father to their children?

 

[45408]

I'm pretty sure my post wasn't directed toward you.

You don't say. Send him a private message next time then.

 

[45408]

I would pay money to see you attempt to argue this at a medical school interview. I really really would.

I know at least a few interviewers who would agree with him.

 

[scarletgirl777]

Ok, let me restate my position and see if it is less controversial.

The primary caretaker of a child is the one who spends the majority of waking hours with the child, prepares meals, teaches, supervises, etc.

If you want to be the primary caretaker of your children (which I and some others believe is best fulfilled by the mother), then being a doctor will be almost impossible. In other words, if you want to be a doctor, and have children, you must accept the fact that you will not be there for the majority of the child's waking hours. Of course, for older children who are in school, this is more or less normal.

I personally feel that having the mother fill this role is the best way to go. However, I am not saying that all mothers who work outside the home are bad mothers. Nor am I saying that all mothers who stay home are good mothers. Nor am I saying that women can't or shouldn't become doctors or have careers. I am saying that the best person to take care of the child, to nurture him/her, and teach him/her (especially in the earliest years of life) is the mother.

To reiterate, if you want to have children and if you want to be their primary caregiver, then being a doctor is impossible.

See, I don't understand that. I understand that it's the way it has always been done. I can even understand that some people think it's important that there be a primary caregiver in the family--that the person who powders butts and potty trains and makes lunches absolutely must be a biological relation at all times. I just don't understand, from a logical perspective, why that person HAS to be the mother. There's no response totally founded in logic that I can see for that.

 

[coldweatherblue]

See, I don't understand that. I understand that it's the way it has always been done. I can even understand that some people think it's important that there be a primary caregiver in the family--that the person who powders butts and potty trains and makes lunches absolutely must be a biological relation at all times. I just don't understand, from a logical perspective, why that person HAS to be the mother. There's no response totally founded in logic that I can see for that.

Do some research on mother-infant reciprocity during the first years of life and its impact on the formation of healthy socialization and self-esteem. As seen touted proudly in the posts above, the ability to contain and nourish life in its primitive stage is a uniquely feminine gift. That ability, however, has consequences with development that reach beyond parturition. The entire process of suckling a child, colostrum, and weaning is absolutely important in that it is the first stable contact the child has with another human and therefore forms the basis for the child's decision to either trust or mistrust future interactions. Does that mean there's only one way to raise a child? No. Does it mean that "it doesn't matter how you raise your kid cause some turn out good and some turn out bad anyway"? Well that's for the person involved to decide. There is, however, a difference between mother-infant contact and father-infant contact. I will totally give you though that beyond a certain age it becomes less important who is the caregiver. I'm sure a kid can turn out okay from being sung lullabies by his dad and sucking down baby milk from a bottle instead of a teet during infancy but you have to admit, it isn't as natural.

 

[seelee]

See, I don't understand that. I understand that it's the way it has always been done. I can even understand that some people think it's important that there be a primary caregiver in the family--that the person who powders butts and potty trains and makes lunches absolutely must be a biological relation at all times. I just don't understand, from a logical perspective, why that person HAS to be the mother. There's no response totally founded in logic that I can see for that.

Do some research on mother-infant reciprocity during the first years of life and its impact on the formation of healthy socialization and self-esteem. As seen touted proudly in the posts above, the ability to contain and nourish life in its primitive stage is a uniquely feminine gift. That ability, however, has consequences with development that reach beyond parturition. The entire process of suckling a child, colostrum, and weaning is absolutely important in that it is the first stable contact the child has with another human and therefore forms the basis for the child's decision to either trust or mistrust future interactions. Does that mean there's only one way to raise a child? No. Does it mean that "it doesn't matter how you raise your kid cause some turn out good and some turn out bad anyway"? Well that's for the person involved to decide. There is, however, a difference between mother-infant contact and father-infant contact. I will totally give you though that beyond a certain age it becomes less important who is the caregiver. I'm sure a kid can turn out okay from being sung lullabies by his dad and sucking down baby milk from a bottle instead of a teet during infancy but you have to admit, it isn't as natural.

Another thing, do you really think that all beliefs can be grounded in logic? If their is anything that I have learned for certain in philosophy is that any logical conclusion must be based on first principles which are pretty much arbitrary. Why do you think that there has been thousands of years of philosophers, and no consensus?

I agree with the above poster, studies have shown that children who have been primarily raised by their mother in the earliest stages of life excel in every area. I personally believe that women have a capacity for child-rearing and nurturing that men don't have. Feel free to disagree. Feel free to raise your children however you want. The OP asked for opinions, and I gave mine.

 

[45408]

See, I don't understand that. I understand that it's the way it has always been done. I can even understand that some people think it's important that there be a primary caregiver in the family--that the person who powders butts and potty trains and makes lunches absolutely must be a biological relation at all times. I just don't understand, from a logical perspective, why that person HAS to be the mother. There's no response totally founded in logic that I can see for that.

Well, I differ from seelee, because I think the father can be the primary caregiver (but I agree that the parents are the best caregivers overall), but from a practical standpoint, the mother is going to be more useful in the early months if you're breastfeeding.

 

[Malibu Stacey]

There are some pretty stong oppinions on here, and at the risk of throwing my 2 cents in I just thought it would be good to share an experience I had.

I shadowed a number of different docs, one of whom is now a GP but before worked for years in a big hospital in internal medicine, he made the decision to switch, because it was more regular hours and he got to see his kids more. His wife is a lawyer, and when he was working in the hospital she worked longer hours than he did, and the reason he said he wanted to spend more time with his children is because it didn't seem to matter how much time she spent away, they just seemed to connect when she walked in the door, but he didn't have that same bond, i guess when you carry another human being around inside of you for 9 months, it's going to take something pretty significant to overcome that.

As I think Charmed2009 was saying, the bond between mother and child seems to be pretty phenominal. There is a lot of assumtion that it is the mother that should be the one to stay at home, and while I agree that the maternal role is very important, the father plays a big role to, so do the aunts and uncles and grandparents and friends and co-workers, there are a lot of people that will play a role in a child upbringing, i'm sure we all learnt a life lesson from our favourite teacher, or got a few pearls of wisdom from grandma that have stayed with us.

I guess what i'm trying to say, in a really long winded sort of way is, if you always have the best interests of your little ones at heart, regardless, you will find a way to make it work. All the women and men that choose to be in really demanding jobs and have children are not people who are scared of a challenge. Thats something to celebrate rather than chastise, i just hope when i'm in the same situation, I have the guts to be a mom and a great doctor at the same time.

 

[Charmed2009]

I'm sure a kid can turn out okay from being sung lullabies by his dad and sucking down baby milk from a bottle instead of a teet during infancy but you have to admit, it isn't as natural.

Tell my husband that it isn't "natural" for him to nurture, feed, and soothe his child.

I grew up in a household where both parents worked full-time and I was in daycare from a very early age. To this day I am extremely close to my parents and looking back I think that daycare helped me to develop socially and intellectually at an accelerated pace. I was reading at 3 years, thanks to the older children who I tried to emulate. I stayed away from drugs, went to a great college, have great friends, and am now getting ready for residency after excelling in medical school (AOA, etc.) I did not have issues with "trust and mistrust", "heavy socialization" or "self-esteem" as coldweatherblue would have you believe should have been the case.

This is my last post in the thread because I feel we've pummeled the poor, dead horse. Working mom or SAHM, we both love our children and want to provide nothing but the best possible environment for growth and development.

 

[psipsina]

I thought the point of this thread was "can doctors have a happy family life" not "is my way of parenting the only way to have happy kids". The answer of course is a resounding yes. There are certain specialties that are more demanding and therefore will leave you less time with your kids but you can have a happy family even then. And there are certainly a multitude of specialties that can be family friendly even during residency like EM and peds. Like anything else in life its what YOU make of the situation. Kids are adaptable and are happy if they feel loved and nurtured and safe. There are many ways of going about providing that for them and there are many ways of screwing that up. There are miserable kids from homes with stay at home moms who have various issues that prevent them from being emotionally available and there are happy kids who spent large chunks of their time in daycare or with nannies. Life isn't so black and white. If you really want to have a family you can make it work. If you want to be there for every baseball game and every dance recital that WILL limit your specialty options and you might want to wait until after residency (and therefore pick a short one!!) but there are ways to make it work.

 

[coldweatherblue]

Tell my husband that it isn't "natural" for him to nurture, feed, and soothe his child.

I grew up in a household where both parents worked full-time and I was in daycare from a very early age. To this day I am extremely close to my parents and looking back I think that daycare helped me to develop socially and intellectually at an accelerated pace. I was reading at 3 years, thanks to the older children who I tried to emulate. I stayed away from drugs, went to a great college, have great friends, and am now getting ready for residency after excelling in medical school (AOA, etc.) I did not have issues with "trust and mistrust", "heavy socialization" or "self-esteem" as coldweatherblue would have you believe should have been the case.

Yeah, this is not at all what the words and context of my post implied. I stated it's more natural for a mother to breast-feed an infant than a father to give him a bottle. I stated that the mother-infant bond is central to social development. And I even gave the caveat, "There isn't only one way that works.." Obviously you're doing well so props.

 

[panvard92]

out of curiousity,

can doctors actually take breaks between ending of their residency and the time they start working? I know most will be anxious to pay off their loans and FINALLY get a job...but I mean, what if someone starts a family between that time...?

 

[Gallix23]

out of curiousity,

can doctors actually take breaks between ending of their residency and the time they start working? I know most will be anxious to pay off their loans and FINALLY get a job...but I mean, what if someone starts a family between that time...?

It's not that they're anxious to pay off the loans...it's that they have loans to pay off. There's a good chance that you won't successfully be able to start a family when you're $150,000+ in debt with no or minimal income. You'll have those loan increments to pay off, on top of bills, food expenses, not to mention other things, which means you really just can't go cold turkey and stop working.

 

[45408]

it isn't as natural.

Tell my husband that it isn't "natural" for him

You're missing a crucial word in there, Charmed.

 

[seelee]

Tell my husband that it isn't "natural" for him to nurture, feed, and soothe his child.

I grew up in a household where both parents worked full-time and I was in daycare from a very early age. To this day I am extremely close to my parents and looking back I think that daycare helped me to develop socially and intellectually at an accelerated pace. I was reading at 3 years, thanks to the older children who I tried to emulate. I stayed away from drugs, went to a great college, have great friends, and am now getting ready for residency after excelling in medical school (AOA, etc.) I did not have issues with "trust and mistrust", "heavy socialization" or "self-esteem" as coldweatherblue would have you believe should have been the case.

This is my last post in the thread because I feel we've pummeled the poor, dead horse. Working mom or SAHM, we both love our children and want to provide nothing but the best possible environment for growth and development.

Geez Charmed, what's it like up on that cross? Can you see Jerusalem from up there?

 

[Terpskins99]

Another thing, do you really think that all beliefs can be grounded in logic? If their is anything that I have learned for certain in philosophy is that any logical conclusion must be based on first principles which are pretty much arbitrary. Why do you think that there has been thousands of years of philosophers, and no consensus?

I agree with the above poster, studies have shown that children who have been primarily raised by their mother in the earliest stages of life excel in every area. I personally believe that women have a capacity for child-rearing and nurturing that men don't have. Feel free to disagree. Feel free to raise your children however you want. The OP asked for opinions, and I gave mine.

BULL****. rolleyes:

Show me these make-believe studies. Because I would bet anything that children of women doctors tend excel even MORE in every area than the average child of a full-time mom. Who are you trying to kid here? Do you even know of any children of women doctors? I know plenty and let me tell you... they're not high school dropouts.