Say to a chiropractor, or to another specialist?
Can PA's write referrals?
- Thread starter Cowboy DO
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I don't think I've ever written one to a chiro but I do to other specialists multiple times every day, along with making admision decisions and then referal to the appropriate admitting team - but then I work in an ER so that's just the nature of the job.
Dennis
Dennis
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It is like most other things-it is something that the supervising physician may choose to delegate...
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D
deleted6669
if you want insurance to reimburse for chiropractors and/or acupuncturists many systems require a referal from a primary care provider. this is true of most hmo's for instance. also, in many cases, the chiro, etc has to be on an approved list of providers. I say this from 1st hand experience.
As for HMO's ALL specialists would need a referral in order for reimbursement to take place. Also, it is true that the doctor would have to be on the plan. I think the question is can a PA refer to the specialist or does the supervising physician have to write the referral for it to be reimbursable. This I do not know.
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All referrals coming from my old practice always had my doc's name stamped on it, but none of us ever signed them. I must have had a thousand people come in and ask to be referred to a chiropractor just for even initial back pain, but we never sent them because they generally came back and saw you months later only then to learn that they had been to the chiro every 3rd day since the referral. For every good and honest chiro there are 10 more that have to do questionable things to pay the strip center office rent. So we just flat out refused to refer to chiros for any insurance. My future practice will have me finding one reliable chiro in my area who can help me out when I don't feel comfortable with the manip the patient needs, but my selection of this person will be based on a lot of stringent criteria. I plan to do most manip myself, and bill accordingly.
What do you mean that the patients "had been to the chiro every 3rd day since the referral"? It is true that there are bad chiropractors out there who milk insurance and patients. Like with anything there is good and there is bad and it's in all professions. Having had "thousand people come in and ask to be referred to a chiropractor" you now know there is a demand for what we do. What did you mean when you said that chiropractors have to "do questionable things to pay the strip center office rent"?
It is a shame that your former employer decided he wasn't going to refer to chiropractors any longer as chiropractic helps many people. It won't matter though as many patients will go anyway and many will pay cash even though they have insurance to cover it.
We have chosen the simple way to handle the problem of PCP refusing to refer when the patient asks. We have the patient get a new doctor. I have a few doctors in town that refuse to refer and what I do is have the patient switch to my own personal "chiropractic friendly" doctor. He has no problem writing referrals and actually loves the additional business. Listen, if the patients insurance coverage covers chiropractic care and their PCP will not refer then that primary care doctor is preventing the patient from utilizing a covered benefit in there plan. When enough patients bring this to the attention of the insurance carrier and the department of insurance the PCP will get thrown off the panel.
It is good that you will still consider sending your patients to a chiropractor. I agree with you that you should check them out. Perhaps ask them to lunch and see if they meet your stringent criteria.
It is a shame that your former employer decided he wasn't going to refer to chiropractors any longer as chiropractic helps many people. It won't matter though as many patients will go anyway and many will pay cash even though they have insurance to cover it.
We have chosen the simple way to handle the problem of PCP refusing to refer when the patient asks. We have the patient get a new doctor. I have a few doctors in town that refuse to refer and what I do is have the patient switch to my own personal "chiropractic friendly" doctor. He has no problem writing referrals and actually loves the additional business. Listen, if the patients insurance coverage covers chiropractic care and their PCP will not refer then that primary care doctor is preventing the patient from utilizing a covered benefit in there plan. When enough patients bring this to the attention of the insurance carrier and the department of insurance the PCP will get thrown off the panel.
It is good that you will still consider sending your patients to a chiropractor. I agree with you that you should check them out. Perhaps ask them to lunch and see if they meet your stringent criteria.
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Are there published studies in peer-review scientific journals which show the benefit of chiropractic vs medical/surgical intervention (not just chiropractic vs placebo)?
Hmmmmmm, does anyone else see a problem with this? There is a name for this, who can come up with it first? Better yet, lets try a little experiment. BackTalk, why don't you go ahead and call the Illinois Department of Professional Regulation at (312) 814-4500 and let them know that you are telling patients to switch their PCP to one who refers business to you. See what they say and let us all know.
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I believe the insurance commissioner would consider this a kickback or at the very least, a conflict of interest. I agree with BackTalk about one thing...I think insurers and the state authorities would be VERY interested in this situation. In fact, I'd be happy to provide them with info about your setup! Just give me your name and the name of your "chiro friendly" doc...I'll do the rest.
The fact is, there are a small number of reputable chiros, but the VAST majority are quacks who believe they can cure EVERYTHING and make their living milking patients for all they're worth! I still find it amazing that they were able to weasle their way into insurance plans. They want all the rights but reject the responsibility and somehow, we have allowed this to happen! They want to call themselves physicians, yet have no respect for (much less practice) evidence based medicine. It's very unfortunate that they are not held to the same standards as physicians. If we practiced the way most chiros do, we'd be run out of town! Oh well, maybe...someday, people will come to their senses.😡
The fact is, there are a small number of reputable chiros, but the VAST majority are quacks who believe they can cure EVERYTHING and make their living milking patients for all they're worth! I still find it amazing that they were able to weasle their way into insurance plans. They want all the rights but reject the responsibility and somehow, we have allowed this to happen! They want to call themselves physicians, yet have no respect for (much less practice) evidence based medicine. It's very unfortunate that they are not held to the same standards as physicians. If we practiced the way most chiros do, we'd be run out of town! Oh well, maybe...someday, people will come to their senses.😡
The fact is, there are a small number of reputable chiros, but the VAST majority are quacks who believe they can cure EVERYTHING and make their living milking patients for all they're worth!
That's interesting. Where did you read that and can I have a copy of that article?😳
That's interesting. Where did you read that and can I have a copy of that article?😳
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Sorry Backtalk, but you are surrounded. The only way out is to dig a hole straight down!! 
Bottom line dude, if Chiropractic professionals had the same background in the basic sciences, proved they could score a decent MCAT score, and were residency trained after 4 hard years of full body-system education, then they would be respected. But oooops, I forgot, we already have individuals with this training, and they are called DO's with Board Certification in Manipulative Medicine. There were pre-"Chiro" people in all my undergrad science courses, and they were never very sharp unfortunately. And FYI, there is no requirement that a PCP generate ANY referral that he/she does not agree is needed. It is no different than refusing to send the 13 year old girl with mild acne to the dermatologist simply because her mother thinks she needs one. Patients often think they need specialists for every problem, but it is the PCP's job to treat within their scope of knowledge and then refer out. Funny enough, many patients automatically think that when they have back pain that they need a Chiro, so they come asking us if they can go. Then we tell them that they have to be given an "out of network" referral by us, and that they may be forced to pay the Chiro bill once the diagnosis does not fit with what the insurance company allows someone to see a Chiro for. The vast majority of our patients who's insurance actually would allow them to see a Chiro could only go if a radiologist had disagnosed a subluxation by radiograph. Do you know how often a radiologist makes this diagnosis? Not very!! But even funnier, Chiro's seem to make this diagnosis routinely and it seems to be the "hallmark" bread and butter dysfunction they treat. Even in DO world, we don't generally ever diagnose a subluxation. Its just way too damn rare! But bottom line Backtalk, a PCP has way more clout than a Chiro on some insurance plan and you are never going to get an insurance company to be "UPSET" that one did not refer a patient to you. Every patient not sent to a Chiro via referral saves the insurance companies thousands, and they are happy to see it limited. So complain all you want, but your words will fall on deaf ears. Chiro's do Manip, but that is all they should be allowed to do. So basically, they are musculoskelatal specialists, worthy I suppose of the title doctor. Never will they be worthy of the title physician in any way in my humbled opinion.
Bottom line dude, if Chiropractic professionals had the same background in the basic sciences, proved they could score a decent MCAT score, and were residency trained after 4 hard years of full body-system education, then they would be respected. But oooops, I forgot, we already have individuals with this training, and they are called DO's with Board Certification in Manipulative Medicine. There were pre-"Chiro" people in all my undergrad science courses, and they were never very sharp unfortunately. And FYI, there is no requirement that a PCP generate ANY referral that he/she does not agree is needed. It is no different than refusing to send the 13 year old girl with mild acne to the dermatologist simply because her mother thinks she needs one. Patients often think they need specialists for every problem, but it is the PCP's job to treat within their scope of knowledge and then refer out. Funny enough, many patients automatically think that when they have back pain that they need a Chiro, so they come asking us if they can go. Then we tell them that they have to be given an "out of network" referral by us, and that they may be forced to pay the Chiro bill once the diagnosis does not fit with what the insurance company allows someone to see a Chiro for. The vast majority of our patients who's insurance actually would allow them to see a Chiro could only go if a radiologist had disagnosed a subluxation by radiograph. Do you know how often a radiologist makes this diagnosis? Not very!! But even funnier, Chiro's seem to make this diagnosis routinely and it seems to be the "hallmark" bread and butter dysfunction they treat. Even in DO world, we don't generally ever diagnose a subluxation. Its just way too damn rare! But bottom line Backtalk, a PCP has way more clout than a Chiro on some insurance plan and you are never going to get an insurance company to be "UPSET" that one did not refer a patient to you. Every patient not sent to a Chiro via referral saves the insurance companies thousands, and they are happy to see it limited. So complain all you want, but your words will fall on deaf ears. Chiro's do Manip, but that is all they should be allowed to do. So basically, they are musculoskelatal specialists, worthy I suppose of the title doctor. Never will they be worthy of the title physician in any way in my humbled opinion.- Joined
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BackTalk,
You're right, my previous post was opinion, not documented fact. However, it is an opinion based on 7 years experience as a med student and resident. Actually, much of that opinion was formed after speaking with some of your own collegues! There were two DCs in my med school class and they were more than happy to share all their "insider info". They regaled us with tales of their substandard education, ridiculous theories and unscrupulous marketing tactics. Other info has come from physicians and many, many patients who were subjected to unnecessary and potentially harmful treatments. In the previous post, I said there were some reputable chiros, but if you must know, I was just giving you the benefit of the doubt as I've never actually met or even heard of one. So yes, it is just my opinion, but know that I, as well as most physicians, view chiros as reckless and potentially dangerous charlatans.😡
You're right, my previous post was opinion, not documented fact. However, it is an opinion based on 7 years experience as a med student and resident. Actually, much of that opinion was formed after speaking with some of your own collegues! There were two DCs in my med school class and they were more than happy to share all their "insider info". They regaled us with tales of their substandard education, ridiculous theories and unscrupulous marketing tactics. Other info has come from physicians and many, many patients who were subjected to unnecessary and potentially harmful treatments. In the previous post, I said there were some reputable chiros, but if you must know, I was just giving you the benefit of the doubt as I've never actually met or even heard of one. So yes, it is just my opinion, but know that I, as well as most physicians, view chiros as reckless and potentially dangerous charlatans.😡
I will give you credit for exposing the quackery within our profession. If you have ever read my posts you would see that I do not practice subluxation quackery. I criticize my profession just as much as medical doctors. I do not diagnose subluxations nor do I treat them. Most chiropractors do not practice in the way you think.
As far as DO's doing manipulation, well that's a dream you must be having. We have 10 or so around town and not one does any manipulation. In fact, I get referrals from a few for chiropractic care.
You are right that a PCP does not have to refer to a chiropractor or anyone. But there is a thing called "jack of all trades and master of none". In fact, I do not care if the PCP refers the patient as I prefer getting paid cash. The reason we ask for it is to save the patient some money. Either way they'll end up at my clinic. If the patient has chiropractic coverage they have a right under their policy to utilize those services. Read your own policy about what to do when you are unable to obtain a referral.
If the patient has a HMO most of them will not allow any "out of network" referrals. The specialist has to be "in network" for reimbursement. Under certain circumstances a HMO will allow out network referral.
But bottom line Backtalk, a PCP has way more clout than a Chiro on some insurance plan and you are never going to get an insurance company to be "UPSET" that one did not refer a patient to you.
You want to know who has the "clout" above anyone else?? It's the person paying the premiums called the patient. They have more influence than anyone. The insurance company may not be upset, unless the patient dumps the plan. The PCP might be upset when their patient finds a new PCP.
Paindr, your response doesn't surprise me, it's very typical. The chiropractic profession has two camps. The NMS based practitioners and the quacks. You have based your opinion on being exposed to the quacks. The DC's you were exposed to in school were probably from one of the quack schools within our profession, which recently lost their accreditation. It wouldn't be the first time a chiropractic student switched to medicine. As far as what they told you, it was probably true depending on where they went to school. Listen, our profession has problems and we are trying to clean it up.
Other info has come from physicians and many, many patients who were subjected to unnecessary and potentially harmful treatments.
Let me guess they were doing cervical spine manipulation. Unnecessary and potentially harmful treatments?? Gee, the medical profession has never been guilty of that.
As far as DO's doing manipulation, well that's a dream you must be having. We have 10 or so around town and not one does any manipulation. In fact, I get referrals from a few for chiropractic care.
You are right that a PCP does not have to refer to a chiropractor or anyone. But there is a thing called "jack of all trades and master of none". In fact, I do not care if the PCP refers the patient as I prefer getting paid cash. The reason we ask for it is to save the patient some money. Either way they'll end up at my clinic. If the patient has chiropractic coverage they have a right under their policy to utilize those services. Read your own policy about what to do when you are unable to obtain a referral.
If the patient has a HMO most of them will not allow any "out of network" referrals. The specialist has to be "in network" for reimbursement. Under certain circumstances a HMO will allow out network referral.
But bottom line Backtalk, a PCP has way more clout than a Chiro on some insurance plan and you are never going to get an insurance company to be "UPSET" that one did not refer a patient to you.
You want to know who has the "clout" above anyone else?? It's the person paying the premiums called the patient. They have more influence than anyone. The insurance company may not be upset, unless the patient dumps the plan. The PCP might be upset when their patient finds a new PCP.
Paindr, your response doesn't surprise me, it's very typical. The chiropractic profession has two camps. The NMS based practitioners and the quacks. You have based your opinion on being exposed to the quacks. The DC's you were exposed to in school were probably from one of the quack schools within our profession, which recently lost their accreditation. It wouldn't be the first time a chiropractic student switched to medicine. As far as what they told you, it was probably true depending on where they went to school. Listen, our profession has problems and we are trying to clean it up.
Other info has come from physicians and many, many patients who were subjected to unnecessary and potentially harmful treatments.
Let me guess they were doing cervical spine manipulation. Unnecessary and potentially harmful treatments?? Gee, the medical profession has never been guilty of that.
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Backtalk,
You are mistaken if you think that DO's don't practice Manip. And the ones that don't just generally don't have the time to do it. But if you once again will read more slowly, you will see that I stated that there are already professionals out there that have a 4 year hard science degree and a BOARD CERTIFICATION IN MANIPULATION. These are not your everyday DO's. These are your MANIP specialists, and I would trust them anyday over a chiro. True enough though.....the average chiro can probably manip better than the average DO, but the average janitor can probably wax a floor better than the average DO as well. Anyone can master one skill, but to master the entire human body and all its systems requires one to be a physician. So are you saying that legitimate chiros don't do cervical manip? I am just curious because we still learn it and it has never been taught to us that it is any more dangerous than other manip techniques. Of course the most devastating complications have generally been when a provider used cervical HVLA inappropriately (like in RA), but I wsa not aware you guys stopped considering cervical manip a useful tool. Seriously...just wondering.
You are mistaken if you think that DO's don't practice Manip. And the ones that don't just generally don't have the time to do it. But if you once again will read more slowly, you will see that I stated that there are already professionals out there that have a 4 year hard science degree and a BOARD CERTIFICATION IN MANIPULATION. These are not your everyday DO's. These are your MANIP specialists, and I would trust them anyday over a chiro. True enough though.....the average chiro can probably manip better than the average DO, but the average janitor can probably wax a floor better than the average DO as well. Anyone can master one skill, but to master the entire human body and all its systems requires one to be a physician. So are you saying that legitimate chiros don't do cervical manip? I am just curious because we still learn it and it has never been taught to us that it is any more dangerous than other manip techniques. Of course the most devastating complications have generally been when a provider used cervical HVLA inappropriately (like in RA), but I wsa not aware you guys stopped considering cervical manip a useful tool. Seriously...just wondering.
PACtoDOC, I/we utilize cervical manipulation when indicated. I mentioned that because most medical doctors scare patients into thinking they will be crippled or have a stroke. Although the risk of stroke is there, it is relative low risk. I do not have the stats but I believe it is around 1/3,000,000.
Hey, trusting your own to treat you is fine. I have no gripe with that unless you are implying we "chiropractors" don't know what we are doing. I would trust a chiropractor over a DO because we have more training in manipulation and perform the procedures on a daily basis. We spend more time learning when not to perform manipulation than we do learning the techniques themselves.
I read your post slowly. I did see the "certification" but was unsure as to what it meant. I didn't know there was a specialization with osteopathic medicine pertaining to manual therapy. My kids pediatrician is a DO and has said they're are the "renegades" of the profession. He told me that he had to take a few classes in OMT but most were elective. He said osteopaths have been absorbed into medicine and it is rare to find a DO who practices OMT. I based my opinion on what he has told me. He went to school in Chicago, maybe that school is different than the others as I have heard from other DO's on here that said OMT is required and not an elective.
I would image DO school is harder than medical school. Why? Because not only do you have to learn "medicine" you also have to learn "osteopathy". Chiropractic is different from medicine and osteopath school. It's hard to compare both as each has strengths and weaknesses. Listen, the basic sciences are the basic sciences and your premed was no different from my prechiro.
Hey, trusting your own to treat you is fine. I have no gripe with that unless you are implying we "chiropractors" don't know what we are doing. I would trust a chiropractor over a DO because we have more training in manipulation and perform the procedures on a daily basis. We spend more time learning when not to perform manipulation than we do learning the techniques themselves.
I read your post slowly. I did see the "certification" but was unsure as to what it meant. I didn't know there was a specialization with osteopathic medicine pertaining to manual therapy. My kids pediatrician is a DO and has said they're are the "renegades" of the profession. He told me that he had to take a few classes in OMT but most were elective. He said osteopaths have been absorbed into medicine and it is rare to find a DO who practices OMT. I based my opinion on what he has told me. He went to school in Chicago, maybe that school is different than the others as I have heard from other DO's on here that said OMT is required and not an elective.
I would image DO school is harder than medical school. Why? Because not only do you have to learn "medicine" you also have to learn "osteopathy". Chiropractic is different from medicine and osteopath school. It's hard to compare both as each has strengths and weaknesses. Listen, the basic sciences are the basic sciences and your premed was no different from my prechiro.
D
deleted6669
it is possible as a d.o. to do a fellowship or residency in omm for 1-3 years if one wishes to specialize. this is what the above poster was alluding to.
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Yes, just like any other residency that produces board certification, OMT is a specialty within the DO profession. All DO's receive at least minimal training in OMT to pass the 3 step national boards. Then like MD's, DO's must choose a residency. One of those residencies available to DO's that is not available to MD's is a 3 year OMT residency. These people are not renegades, and are instead the true experts of manipulative medicine. And I was not referring to the undergrad basic sciences, but rather the basic medical sciences taught in the first 2 years of medical school. These include cell biology, anatomy, physiology, histology, pharmacology, and pathophysiology. These are the basic medical sciences, and you cannot skimp on any one of these and still pretend to have a "total" view of the human system.
I also took cell biology, anatomy, physiology, histology and pathology my first 2 years of Chiropractic College, along with biochem and a hoard of other classes. In fact we use the same text books used in medical school. I didn't have pharmacology until the 4th year.
Before I am flamed, I will tell you now that my pharmacology classes were an overview and nothing in comparison to what a DO/MD would take. We do not practice medicine so it makes no sense for us to study it in detail.
You can have your residency in manual therapy. It won't matter as chiropractors in the United States and throughout the World are considered the experts and the leading authority with concern to manual medicine. Your OMT practitioners are a dying breed.
Before I am flamed, I will tell you now that my pharmacology classes were an overview and nothing in comparison to what a DO/MD would take. We do not practice medicine so it makes no sense for us to study it in detail.
You can have your residency in manual therapy. It won't matter as chiropractors in the United States and throughout the World are considered the experts and the leading authority with concern to manual medicine. Your OMT practitioners are a dying breed.
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DO's doing OMT are not a dying breed, because DO schools continue to increase in number, and OMT will always be required. So come to the town where I will be practicing and you will see that most patients will not need a chiro. That is because I intend to do most of the manip they need. So they might be dying in some parts, but not where I will be!! And I am sorry Backtalk, but 3/4 of your class would have never made it through our rendition of biochem, phys, pathophys, and all the other basics. In high school, we used college level texts as evidenced by "Campbell's Biology", but we didn't learn it in the correct detail. I tend to believe that is the only way most of your classmates could have made it through as well. For God's sake, look at the average chiro students GPA and tell me they could survive a real medical school basic science beating!! Hell, medical students barely survive it and they are the best of the best. I feel you are a sharp tack, and probably ahead of most of your peers, but don't expect me to believe that the rest of your Strip Center renting buddies are on the same level. You can find a great student in any field, but it won't convince me otherwise. Good luck though, and I am sure you will be very successful.
And I am sorry Backtalk, but 3/4 of your class would have never made it through our rendition of biochem, phys, pathophys, and all the other basics.
You ought to be sorry for giving the wrong information. Please provide me with the article /study you read this from. Obviously, you have no idea what first two years of chiropractic school is all about. When a DO or MD student reads from the same book as a chiropractic student, can you explain how the MD or DO somehow ends up smarter?
For God's sake, look at the average chiro students GPA and tell me they could survive a real medical school basic science beating!! Hell, medical students barely survive it and they are the best of the best.
It is true that Chiropractic College has lower admission requirements. This has and is changing. The problem with chiropractic colleges is that they are private. So this means they are tuition driven. They need a constant supply of students to stay operational. It is a shame because it allows substandard students to slip into the program. We use to say "if you are breathing and have a spine you can get into chiropractic school".
I really do not see much difference in the first few years of medical school and that of chiropractic schools (based on what my brother has said, he was in osteopath school for 2 years and then decided to switch to dental school). We use the same text books and our professors are medical doctors and a few are osteopaths, and many are PhDs. We have chiropractors that teach as well. I think that the training splits in the last two years. As you learn more in pharmacology, we learn more in the terms of manual medicine. Then you move on to the "wards" interning and then to residency. This is where you guys blow us away. We do not do a residency. I bet you learn more seeing sick patients in the wards than you do reading a text book. This is where we are lacking.
Another thing is there are lots of people who flunk out of chiropractic school. There also many who cannot pass the 4 sets of national board's examinations. If you do not pass, you cannot get a license. We also have to pass two sets of comp boards before we can see patients. If you do not pass them you do not move into the clinic and therefore you don't graduate. We started with 105 students in my class and at graduation there was half that many. Like medical school, there is a "weed out" process. As far as medicine/osteopaths being "the best of the best", that's that God complex shining through again. With some of the doctors I've met, I beg to differ.
I have admitted several times we have some major quacks in our profession. These people shouldn't
be practicing. Where they learn the quackery is beyond me. The school I went to just didn't teach all that subluxation nonsense. Our profession is getting better, as I've said Life College of Chiropractic (quack factory) was shut down and that is a start.
You ought to be sorry for giving the wrong information. Please provide me with the article /study you read this from. Obviously, you have no idea what first two years of chiropractic school is all about. When a DO or MD student reads from the same book as a chiropractic student, can you explain how the MD or DO somehow ends up smarter?
For God's sake, look at the average chiro students GPA and tell me they could survive a real medical school basic science beating!! Hell, medical students barely survive it and they are the best of the best.
It is true that Chiropractic College has lower admission requirements. This has and is changing. The problem with chiropractic colleges is that they are private. So this means they are tuition driven. They need a constant supply of students to stay operational. It is a shame because it allows substandard students to slip into the program. We use to say "if you are breathing and have a spine you can get into chiropractic school".
I really do not see much difference in the first few years of medical school and that of chiropractic schools (based on what my brother has said, he was in osteopath school for 2 years and then decided to switch to dental school). We use the same text books and our professors are medical doctors and a few are osteopaths, and many are PhDs. We have chiropractors that teach as well. I think that the training splits in the last two years. As you learn more in pharmacology, we learn more in the terms of manual medicine. Then you move on to the "wards" interning and then to residency. This is where you guys blow us away. We do not do a residency. I bet you learn more seeing sick patients in the wards than you do reading a text book. This is where we are lacking.
Another thing is there are lots of people who flunk out of chiropractic school. There also many who cannot pass the 4 sets of national board's examinations. If you do not pass, you cannot get a license. We also have to pass two sets of comp boards before we can see patients. If you do not pass them you do not move into the clinic and therefore you don't graduate. We started with 105 students in my class and at graduation there was half that many. Like medical school, there is a "weed out" process. As far as medicine/osteopaths being "the best of the best", that's that God complex shining through again. With some of the doctors I've met, I beg to differ.
I have admitted several times we have some major quacks in our profession. These people shouldn't
be practicing. Where they learn the quackery is beyond me. The school I went to just didn't teach all that subluxation nonsense. Our profession is getting better, as I've said Life College of Chiropractic (quack factory) was shut down and that is a start.
Hi BackTalk,
It is nice to see someone defending the chiro profession. I agree with everything you said. Our courses in the basic sciences can be hard...I guess it depends what institution you attend. The hardest course I have ever taken was neuroanatomy at the chiro college (CCCLA). And I have my share of units behind me (Bachelors in biology, masters in nutrition, chiropractor and now also PA). I have also sat down in some basic science courses in med schools that I was going to attend and did not see any difference.
I think it is unfair for anyone to judge someone else's education if you have not experienced it by yourself.
-Ceci
It is nice to see someone defending the chiro profession. I agree with everything you said. Our courses in the basic sciences can be hard...I guess it depends what institution you attend. The hardest course I have ever taken was neuroanatomy at the chiro college (CCCLA). And I have my share of units behind me (Bachelors in biology, masters in nutrition, chiropractor and now also PA). I have also sat down in some basic science courses in med schools that I was going to attend and did not see any difference.
I think it is unfair for anyone to judge someone else's education if you have not experienced it by yourself.
-Ceci
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This argument is pointless; it is like arguing with a cult!! So I suppose your visits to the medical schools you didn't get accepted to makes you ever so qualified to judge that chiropractic basic sciences are equivilent to ours right? My little brother came with me to school one day last year, so I guess we should just make him an expert on medical school education as well. So if you were so happy with chiropractic Cecilia, why the heck did you go back to school to receive a supposedly lesser degree? I mean if chiropractors want to compare themselves with having a similar education to physicians, then why would you go take even more supposed "basic" courses in getting a PA education. I'll answer that for you. Because you know that even your PA education far surpassed that which you obtained in chiropractic school. How many people do you honestly believe would choose chiropractic school if they could get into medical school, PA school, or even dental school. If chiropractic basic sciences were equivilent to medical school basic sciences, you could transfer into an AMA or AOA program after year 2. I have had chiropractors as friends, as patients, as neighbors, and I knew many a pre-chiro student in my undergrad classes. I can assure you that these people are all good people, all capable, and all worthy of their title as chiropractors. But they simply are not on the same level as the people I have been in school with in PA school or medical school. You simply cannot get into medical school or PA school with GPA's in the mid 2's, and you can't expect that you can run people with GPA's this low through a basic science carwash without most of them drowning!! Its been said by many a chiro turned physician on these forums that chiro education is watered down and nothing near to the level of medical school. So pull up some of these old threads, call these people liars, and continue misleading everyone. This speaks for itself.
Guess it is pointless. You are God and above everyone else with your precious DO degree. Typical medical student...get over yourself. Yeah, your basic sciences were sooo hard and it was soooo hard to get into medical school. I could have gone to medical school if I had wanted. I chose not too. I come from a family of chiropractors and I enjoy getting people well without handing them a script for some pain pills. I make more money than any family practitioner in town, I'm not on call, I work 3 1/2 days a week, my malpractice is peanuts compared to theirs and yes people call me doctor. It's like a nightmare isn't it?
If chiropractic basic sciences were equivilent to medical school basic sciences, you could transfer into an AMA or AOA program after year 2.
It's called discrimination. The AMA has been doing it for years.
If chiropractors are so incompetent then why are DC's teaching at medical schools?
Why do you think that every chiropractor is someone that has failed getting into medical school? That is the furthest thing from the truth. I guess you feel the same way about optometrists, podiatrists and dentists as well.
Listen, why are you pursuing a DO and not a MD? Isn't it much easier to get into DO school? I bet you couldn't get into medical school and settled on being a DO.
If chiropractic basic sciences were equivilent to medical school basic sciences, you could transfer into an AMA or AOA program after year 2.
It's called discrimination. The AMA has been doing it for years.
If chiropractors are so incompetent then why are DC's teaching at medical schools?
Why do you think that every chiropractor is someone that has failed getting into medical school? That is the furthest thing from the truth. I guess you feel the same way about optometrists, podiatrists and dentists as well.
Listen, why are you pursuing a DO and not a MD? Isn't it much easier to get into DO school? I bet you couldn't get into medical school and settled on being a DO.
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Comparing MD vs. DO is like comparing two professional football teams. Comparing MD or DO vs. Chiro is like comparing a professional football team against a junior high team. And if you can formulate a list of more than a handful of medical schools that employ chiropractors I will be shocked. As I said before, the top-knotch in any field can do very well!! I don't doubt you do very well, but you seem to be able to compose a sentence better than many chiro's I have met. I made over 6 figs as a PA, which is not nearly the norm. Anyone can do well, but that is the exception rather than the rule. And boo fu**ing hoo, call the police, the ACLU, or your mama for all I care, because its not discrimination. It is common sense. So why can a DO transfer into an MD program at any point in year one, or two? No discrimination there!!
For the record:1- I did get accepted into the med school I went to visit. I decided after very careful consideration, that at the time it was not in my best interest to attend;2- PA courses were not harder than in chiro school. (I was there); 3-How ridiculous is it to compare me to your little nephew?
I think this conversation would be over if everyone was allowed to take the medical boards. That would be the only proof to see who is better prepared to practice in the healthfield.
And PAtoDOC...you need to relax man...
I think this conversation would be over if everyone was allowed to take the medical boards. That would be the only proof to see who is better prepared to practice in the healthfield.
And PAtoDOC...you need to relax man...
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You have now stated the most absurd thing of all!! To state that you think a chiro could pass any step of the USMLE or COMLEX is insanity. And now that you are a PA Cecilia, you still could not pass the medical boards....I know, because I AM HERE and know what it requires to pass. This is where this conversation ends. I recommend you start a thread on either the allopathic or osteopathic forum stating that you feel chiro's should be allowed to take the medical boards. They need a good chuckle to get their day started!! And Cecilia, you have proven my point by not even digesting what I read before responding. I said it was my BROTHER, not my nephew who came to visit my school, and you first stated you went to multiple medical schools to observe classes, but then you changed it to "one". You can't get my story or your own story straight, so good luck taking something like the MCAT End of my portion of this insane discussion.
End of my portion of this insane discussion.Yep...I do all the time....I like Chiros........they do a wonderful job.
And.....I actually have Chiro collegues who refer their newly discovered hypertensives and diabetics back to me.
And.....I actually have Chiro collegues who refer their newly discovered hypertensives and diabetics back to me.
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Pac to Doc, Please build a little bridge over your head and walk it, because you really need to get over yourself.
Your a DO, your degree is not recognised anywhere outside the US, where as your fellow MDs are. I must question:
Why would you chose DO over MD, unless you were not capable of getting into an MD program?? Does that bother you that i would imply such a thing??
Because it is exactly what you are doing. I scored in teh top 2% in my year 12 exams, there was no course offered at University that i could not have gained access to.
However, why do i chose chiropractic over Med: When i had to visit my father in hospital, because his specialist re-introduced a drug that he had previously had an allergic reaction to, and he was nearly sent to his death bed by such a rookie mistake, i realised i dont like hospitals, and i dont like being around the sick and dieing, it saddens me because i take too much from other individuals experiences, and i know that would have destroyed me had i chosen med.
For you to assume because i chose chiropractic, that i am of lesser inteligence, simply implies your complete lack of judgement and ability of lateral thinking. May God watch over your patients, for they are going to need it!
Your a DO, your degree is not recognised anywhere outside the US, where as your fellow MDs are. I must question:
Why would you chose DO over MD, unless you were not capable of getting into an MD program?? Does that bother you that i would imply such a thing??
Because it is exactly what you are doing. I scored in teh top 2% in my year 12 exams, there was no course offered at University that i could not have gained access to.
However, why do i chose chiropractic over Med: When i had to visit my father in hospital, because his specialist re-introduced a drug that he had previously had an allergic reaction to, and he was nearly sent to his death bed by such a rookie mistake, i realised i dont like hospitals, and i dont like being around the sick and dieing, it saddens me because i take too much from other individuals experiences, and i know that would have destroyed me had i chosen med.
For you to assume because i chose chiropractic, that i am of lesser inteligence, simply implies your complete lack of judgement and ability of lateral thinking. May God watch over your patients, for they are going to need it!
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Hi Johnny,
Sorry to hear about your father's experience in the hospital. Mistakes like that do happen, and people do die from them. But much more good has come from the medical profession than bad, and this thread was more about a few people butting heads rather than 2 professions butting heads. If you read the initial posts on this thread, you will see that the argument was instigated by Backtalk because he was offended and basically lashed out at the reality of PCP's not referring to chiropractors. And if you read any of my posts in previous threads, you will see where I have even mentioned that I plan to hook up with a good chiropractor to send my patients to when my manip skills are not good enough. You being a chiro should understand why I chose Do over MD. I had been a PA for several years before going back to medical school, and I worked in a group practice with doctors of both degrees. I have always appreciated the empathy, patience, and care that comes from DO's I worked with, and I saw the profession to be one that was more for me. I was accepted to both degree programs, but being in primary care already, I knew the only thing that would add more to my tool belt if I wanted to stay in primary care was to learn additional skills. I would not have learned that in MD school, because an MD family physician practices no different than an family medicine PA, in terms of philosophy. Yes I chose to take the road of lesser understanding from the public and even stigma, but it was right for me. But that is where I am leaving this conversation with you, because it is pointless to go any further. Good luck and I wish you a fulfilling career.
Sorry to hear about your father's experience in the hospital. Mistakes like that do happen, and people do die from them. But much more good has come from the medical profession than bad, and this thread was more about a few people butting heads rather than 2 professions butting heads. If you read the initial posts on this thread, you will see that the argument was instigated by Backtalk because he was offended and basically lashed out at the reality of PCP's not referring to chiropractors. And if you read any of my posts in previous threads, you will see where I have even mentioned that I plan to hook up with a good chiropractor to send my patients to when my manip skills are not good enough. You being a chiro should understand why I chose Do over MD. I had been a PA for several years before going back to medical school, and I worked in a group practice with doctors of both degrees. I have always appreciated the empathy, patience, and care that comes from DO's I worked with, and I saw the profession to be one that was more for me. I was accepted to both degree programs, but being in primary care already, I knew the only thing that would add more to my tool belt if I wanted to stay in primary care was to learn additional skills. I would not have learned that in MD school, because an MD family physician practices no different than an family medicine PA, in terms of philosophy. Yes I chose to take the road of lesser understanding from the public and even stigma, but it was right for me. But that is where I am leaving this conversation with you, because it is pointless to go any further. Good luck and I wish you a fulfilling career.
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Yes, i did read all your previous posts. I read that you would hook up with a good chiro who met YOUR stringent pre-requisites, as if you are in any position to judge my profession.
The chiropractor is not below you, he does not require your approval to treat your patients.
Would you think it appropriate for me to judge whom was a satisfactory MD by my standards to treat my patients?? And deny care to those whom i thought were not suitable.
I work in a pathology lab, where i work with several Med students, i assure you they are far more open minded and many times less judgemental, i.e. without the god complex! It has become disturbingly clear that it is a valid stigma that i can place on you Yanks thinking you are the Best of the best of the Best. Bigger is better, and better is best, we are the US, flag waving!
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Yes there are. They generally show that chiro and medical intervention are about the same in terms of clinical outcome for low back pain. Surgical intervention was shown to be better than either medical or chiro intervention.
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No, im sorry, but surgery is ALWAYS the very LAST resort, and should be avoided at all costs.
I seriously doubt you can produce any study showing surgery to be more effective, especially comparative to chiropractic treatment.
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Surgery has been shown in study after study to be superior to manipulation or medication, but it is impossible to set up a study that is not biased. The problem is, you have serious problems going to the surgeon, so of course they will make progress. You wouldn't be operating on someone that you didn't think quite honestly would benefit, so more times than not the outcome is improved. Its like comparing apples and oranges.
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Agreed, but the main point is that drugs and chiro were shown to be approx equal benefit.
Most low back pain resolves on its own anyways. Chiro and medicine dont really help they just provide an route for placebo effect to take hold.
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Man, you talk a lot of bull****!
When it comes to Un-complicated, LBP, Chiropractic is many times superior to drugs. This is a fact.
It is so typical of you as a doctor to say "most lower back pain resolves on its own anyways", when you really should say, i really dont know what the hell im talking about.
personally I wish the posters who want to throw crap at each other would find another place to do it. How about a personal E-mail to each other.....the original question was simple and the answer was either yes or no. Lets let this petty sniping at each other go. It really makes us all look small. Anyone else agree?
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Did i say it cures cancer?? NO, that was your immature deduction.
I did not study chiropractic to clean up the profession. I intend to offer my patients nothing more than treatment for Musculo-skeletal problems. If a patient is not reponding to my treatment, then it will cease.
I dont ever use the word subluxation. I recognise chiropractic for what it is good for.
God speed to your patients, and good luck, for they are going to need it!
