Can someone explain to me how UQ-O is exorbitantly expensive?

[ajm422]

I'm considering applying to UQ-O for the January 2014 start. I just spoke with Thea Volpe at a graduate school fair and I am very encouraged by the idea. She was very helpful and eased some of my misgivings. I'm applying to U.S. schools this cycle, but I'm right on the fringe (34Q MCAT, 3.44 cGPA, 3.30 sGPA) and I'd like to have my ducks in a row. DO is out of the question, and I'd rather not attend a Caribbean school.

In other threads, people have said something like, "UQ-O is a terrible idea because it's insanely expensive." I have a feeling that some of them might mean: "A degree from UQ-O is equivalent to a degree from a reputable Caribbean school, so why would anyone opt to pay $340K for a $250K degree?!" But I also have the feeling that some people are suggesting UQ-O is more expensive than your average OOS US medical school. I'd like to learn more about this.

Here, as best as I can figure it is the rough cost of attending UQ-O (source):

Tuition: $56,480 USD x 4 = $225,920
COA: $23,436 AUD or $21,578 USD x 4 = $86,312
Misc. other stuff: $10,000

TOTAL: $322,232

Let's compare this with one of my prospective OOS USA schools, Tufts University (figures taken from (this site):

M1 $82,880
M2 $85,465
M3 $87,402
M4 $87,589

TOTAL: $343,336

Sure, there are lots of things like books and health insurance that I didn't include in my UQ-O estimate, but let's just increase the bull**** factor to $30,000 to make it even with Tufts. I think this shows that UQ-O is on par with a good US school. Now, I know I would be paying $340,000 for an IMG designation rather than an AMG designation, but honestly I would love to live in Australia for two years, and I am a good test taker. I'm confident that I can boost my USMLE test scores enough to compensate.

Is there anything I am missing here? Thanks a lot to everyone in this forum. Users Phloston, nybgrus, neulite30 and others have been immensely helpful while I make my decisions.

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[JohnSnow]

I'm considering applying to UQ-O for the January 2014 start. I just spoke with Thea Volpe at a graduate school fair and I am very encouraged by the idea. She was very helpful and eased some of my misgivings. I'm applying to U.S. schools this cycle, but I'm right on the fringe (34Q MCAT, 3.44 cGPA, 3.30 sGPA) and I'd like to have my ducks in a row. DO is out of the question, and I'd rather not attend a Caribbean school.

In other threads, people have said something like, "UQ-O is a terrible idea because it's insanely expensive." I have a feeling that some of them might mean: "A degree from UQ-O is equivalent to a degree from a reputable Caribbean school, so why would anyone opt to pay $340K for a $250K degree?!" But I also have the feeling that some people are suggesting UQ-O is more expensive than your average OOS US medical school. I'd like to learn more about this.

Here, as best as I can figure it is the rough cost of attending UQ-O (source):

Tuition: $56,480 USD x 4 = $225,920
COA: $23,436 AUD or $21,578 USD x 4 = $86,312
Misc. other stuff: $10,000

TOTAL: $322,232

Let's compare this with one of my prospective OOS USA schools, Tufts University (figures taken from (this site):

M1 $82,880
M2 $85,465
M3 $87,402
M4 $87,589

TOTAL: $343,336

Sure, there are lots of things like books and health insurance that I didn't include in my UQ-O estimate, but let's just increase the bull**** factor to $30,000 to make it even with Tufts. I think this shows that UQ-O is on par with a good US school. Now, I know I would be paying $340,000 for an IMG designation rather than an AMG designation, but honestly I would love to live in Australia for two years, and I am a good test taker. I'm confident that I can boost my USMLE test scores enough to compensate.

Is there anything I am missing here? Thanks a lot to everyone in this forum. Users Phloston, nybgrus, neulite30 and others have been immensely helpful while I make my decisions.

UQ-Ochsner is not really that expensive, when compared to an OOS school or a private school, as you pointed out with your Tufts example. Brisbane has a very high cost of living which is something that adds to the overall cost, plus roundtrip flights to Australia, etc.

You have really decent stats for international schools and might want to consider graduate entry medicine in Ireland or a traditional Australian program or an SMP with linkage in the US.

 

[ajm422]

UQ-Ochsner is not really that expensive, when compared to an OOS school or a private school, as you pointed out with your Tufts example. Brisbane has a very high cost of living which is something that adds to the overall cost, plus roundtrip flights to Australia, etc.

You have really decent stats for international schools and might want to consider graduate entry medicine in Ireland or a traditional Australian program or an SMP with linkage in the US.

Interesting. I'm not familiar with international options for US students who want to practice in the US. That is, options apart from UQ-O and Caribbean.

I might consider SMP as well, but I'm not keen to lose another year and spend $50,000. All that and not even a guarantee of a spot. Does Ireland have programs that allow graduates to practice in the US? I'd rather go to Ireland than Australia.

 

[JohnSnow]

Interesting. I'm not familiar with international options for US students who want to practice in the US. That is, options apart from UQ-O and Caribbean.

I might consider SMP as well, but I'm not keen to lose another year and spend $50,000. All that and not even a guarantee of a spot. Does Ireland have programs that allow graduates to practice in the US? I'd rather go to Ireland than Australia.

Check out the Atlantic Bridge Program's website.

Ireland runs on a schedule similar to the US (September - May), unlike Australia (January - November). The Irish schools have strong international reputations.

Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, University College Dublin, University College Cork, and University of Limerick offer 4-year graduate entry programs. The programs are entirely in Ireland although you are allowed to return to complete audition rotations at US schools during years 3 & 4 which will help you secure a residency.

Tuition at UCD, UCC, and UL is about $50,000 per year (based on current exchange rates), and RCSI is about $65,000 per year. The good thing is the schools really don't increase tuition from year to year, whereas the Australian schools go up about $3K every year.

The Irish schools are also a lot more competitive than most of the Australian schools. But you are a good applicant, especially with that 34 MCAT.

Furthermore, the schools actively recruit North American students (although the majority will be Canadians).

All of the Irish medical schools are recognized by the medical boards of all 50 states for licensure. University of Limerick is new (the first class started in 2008 or so) and as a result they are not eligible for US Federal Loans, the other 5 schools are though.

 

[edgerock24]

A couple of things:
UQ is a internationally recognized school. You will get a superb education if you chose to go to UQ.

However, there are still some concerns regarding being able to practice in certain states unfortunately after graduating from UQ-O.

Those Ireland schools are pretty good as well -- likely just as good as any Aussie med school. UQ or any Irish school would be 10x better than getting a degree from a diploma mill caribbean school (although SGU isn't THAT bad imo... kind of gets bashed a little too much on here).

However, why are you not applying to any DO schools?

 

[JohnSnow]

A couple of things:
UQ is a internationally recognized school. You will get a superb education if you chose to go to UQ.

However, there are still some concerns regarding being able to practice in certain states unfortunately after graduating from UQ-O.

Those Ireland schools are pretty good as well -- likely just as good as any Aussie med school. UQ or any Irish school would be 10x better than getting a degree from a diploma mill caribbean school (although SGU isn't THAT bad imo... kind of gets bashed a little too much on here).

However, why are you not applying to any DO schools?

excellent advice

A decent rule of thumb when considering medical schools as a US citizen:
US MD > US DO > UK/Australia/New Zealand/Ireland degree > Eastern Europe > Carib

People may say Carib over Eastern Europe, but I disagree with that. Eastern Europe is far more economical and leaves you with similar residency options as Caribbean schools.

 

[pre med 2014]

People really need to stop saying Caribbean in the same sentence as UQ-O. Just because Brisbane is year round beaches and sunshine does not mean it is Caribbean caliber, its a world renowned university. Though you will suffer the stigma of an IMG, its not the same as Carib.

I will likely be going UQ-O, the January start is appealing to me as I've been out of college for a couple of years.

I'm in your shoes, I figured I'd be spending at least another $6000 minimum in secondaries and traveling costs for interviews for a chance at US MD or DO only to end up at a school with similar tuition to UQ-O of around ~50K, and if I didn't get in anywhere well then that situation would be even worse.

 

[Phloston]

A couple of things:
UQ is a internationally recognized school. You will get a superb education if you chose to go to UQ.

However, there are still some concerns regarding being able to practice in certain states unfortunately after graduating from UQ-O.

Those Ireland schools are pretty good as well -- likely just as good as any Aussie med school. UQ or any Irish school would be 10x better than getting a degree from a diploma mill caribbean school (although SGU isn't THAT bad imo... kind of gets bashed a little too much on here).

However, why are you not applying to any DO schools?

I'm a 4th-yr at UQ (not Ochsner) and the education is pretty weak. Students who come out strong do so via having developed their own compensatory study habits entirely independent of the course (e.g. those prepping for the USMLEs). It's to my observation that the UQ students who aren't studying / haven't studied for the USMLEs are light-years behind. Australia needs its own USMLE-type exam, and it currently doesn't have it. It's inconvenient to admit that I wouldn't trust those who haven't taken the USMLE as future doctors, and that applies to everyone here except the US internationals and a few sporadic Canadians/domestics. The course itself is mediocre, despite the affiliated research institutes which thankfully inflate its world-ranking.

 

[Phloston]

excellent advice

A decent rule of thumb when considering medical schools as a US citizen:
US MD > US DO > UK/Australia/New Zealand/Ireland degree > Eastern Europe > Carib

People may say Carib over Eastern Europe, but I disagree with that. Eastern Europe is far more economical and leaves you with similar residency options as Caribbean schools.

People really need to stop saying Caribbean in the same sentence as UQ-O. Just because Brisbane is year round beaches and sunshine does not mean it is Caribbean caliber, its a world renowned university. Though you will suffer the stigma of an IMG, its not the same as Carib.

I will likely be going UQ-O, the January start is appealing to me as I've been out of college for a couple of years.

I'm in your shoes, I figured I'd be spending at least another $6000 minimum in secondaries and traveling costs for interviews for a chance at US MD or DO only to end up at a school with similar tuition to UQ-O of around ~50K, and if I didn't get in anywhere well then that situation would be even worse.

Unfortunately, many of the students who come here have that mentality. It becomes apparent rather quickly that many of the internationals didn't want to go DO or Caribbean, so they instead came to UQ-O. I'm just stating the facts. There are very few internationals who come here because they truly want to study abroad in Australia. Truthfully, it doesn't frame people's mentalities well because no one wants to think they're in a second-rate program, and no one wants to second-guess the capabilities of their classmates.

UQ sets the bar too low for internationals. I believe they're still accepting MCATs as low as 24, which is absurd if you ask me. I don't ask around for people's scores, but there was one guy during my first year who bragged about having gotten in with a 24, and he actually ended up failing the course (and, no, I'm not joking). I think once people at our program start matching into respectable residencies, UQ-O's reputation will become more recognizable, and the applicant pool will subsequently expand. My guess is ten years from now, no one under a 30 MCAT would be given a second look because it will be just as competitive here as in the States. At the moment, anyone getting into UQ-O with sub-30 MCATs should consider him or herself lucky.

 

[pre med 2014]

At the moment, anyone getting into UQ-O with sub-30 MCATs should consider him or herself lucky.

I got in with a 27

 

[edgerock24]

Unfortunately, many of the students who come here have that mentality. It becomes apparent rather quickly that many of the internationals didn't want to go DO or Caribbean, so they instead came to UQ-O. I'm just stating the facts. There are very few internationals who come here because they truly want to study abroad in Australia. Truthfully, it doesn't frame people's mentalities well because no one wants to think they're in a second-rate program, and no one wants to second-guess the capabilities of their classmates.

UQ sets the bar too low for internationals. I believe they're still accepting MCATs as low as 24, which is absurd if you ask me. I don't ask around for people's scores, but there was one guy during my first year who bragged about having gotten in with a 24, and he actually ended up failing the course (and, no, I'm not joking). I think once people at our program start matching into respectable residencies, UQ-O's reputation will become more recognizable, and the applicant pool will subsequently expand. My guess is ten years from now, no one under a 30 MCAT would be given a second look because it will be just as competitive here as in the States. At the moment, anyone getting into UQ-O with sub-30 MCATs should consider him or herself lucky.

What a silly and pretentious comment. People succeed in American medical schools and become fantastic physicians all the time with MCAT scores between 24-29. Also, if the education is so weak at UQ then why would impressive candidates even want to attend the school?

 

[Phloston]

I didn't say people can't succeed as physicians just because they get MCATs in the 20s. It's the same thing as to how no one would gain consideration at an Ivy League with an MCAT under 30. If anything, I'm actually supporting my school with that comment, despite being honest about its mediocre program structure.

What I'm saying is, at the moment, UQ has the MCAT bar set very low because the program is still in transition and the international students are lucrative. The domestic students who go here are mostly accepted out of high school having been in the top-1% of their class; the other domestic students, who already hold degrees, have to get the highest GAMSATs in the country for consideration (higher than USydney or Melbourne). So in turn, the contrast with the international applicant pool is glaringly apparent. Am I saying that UQ should all of a sudden transform into a Stanford-type prep school and only accept MCATs of 36? No. I just think that they need to be extra careful about low-range applicants, rather than just immediately accepting them for pecuniary benefit. There are some people who come here and talk about how they don't want to be here and, not to mention, they also struggle to get by. I only see this "phenomenon" with international students.

 

[514901]

I didn't say people can't succeed as physicians just because they get MCATs in the 20s. It's the same thing as to how no one would gain consideration at an Ivy League with an MCAT under 30. If anything, I'm actually supporting my school with that comment, despite being honest about its mediocre program structure.

What I'm saying is, at the moment, UQ has the MCAT bar set very low because the program is still in transition and the international students are lucrative. The domestic students who go here are mostly accepted out of high school having been in the top-1% of their class; the other domestic students, who already hold degrees, have to get the highest GAMSATs in the country for consideration (higher than USydney or Melbourne). So in turn, the contrast with the international applicant pool is glaringly apparent. Am I saying that UQ should all of a sudden transform into a Stanford-type prep school and only accept MCATs of 36? No. I just think that they need to be extra careful about low-range applicants, rather than just immediately accepting them for pecuniary benefit. There are some people who come here and talk about how they don't want to be here and, not to mention, they also struggle to get by. I only see this "phenomenon" with international students.

I agree with everything you say, however I want to point out that internationals actually outpace the Australian med students on every single exam at UQ and achieve higher overall marks. They fail less than the domestics, as well
Also, the GAMSAT is a VERY watered down version of the MCAT. I scored a 34 and I would be surprised if more than a handful of the Australians here could even break a 30.

 

[Medstart108]

You also have to remember that for Australians the need to do well on exams is much less. For them, they've "made it" for internationals they haven't.

So Australians are going to be a bit more relaxed about their exams whereas Internationals are gunning for it. Not to mention, that the internationals with BSc or more who join high school grads are joining them with 4+ years of somewhat relatable knowledge and also bring 4+ more years in maturity which is huge.

 

[514901]

Good point. They may not need to focus as hard on marks due to knowing they have guaranteed internship but there's a lot who do--as they know getting into lucrative specialties now will require all the brownie points and other BS that has been a part of the US admissions system for decades. And some are even advocating a 'merit based system' which would be impossible to enforce with all the subjectivity of Year 3/4 marks, and even the Year 1/2 examinations.

I'll say my experience is that the majority of the Australian med students are people who have degrees in 'Medical Science' and the like, as education here is much more vocational, and are essentially doing medical school for the 2nd time around when they begin med school. They tend to be more focused on using student notes and memorizing answers to past exams and finding out what is going to be examined than on learning the material on their own. There's sort of a prevailing opinions amongst them that if a topic is not being directly examined, it does not exist.

That's just my experience, though.

 

[pitman]

I echo those sentiments, with one qualification -- since the GAMSAT doesn't test detailed knowledge of physics, chem, and bio the way that the MCAT does (it tests reasoning ability using the more basic concepts), Australians will not have any reason to have spent the same amount of time taking or studying those subjects.

To get into the more competitive schools, Australians still have to score 90%ile+ on the GAMSAT, "like" getting 33+ on the MCAT (with UQ having the highest GAMSAT cutoff). But I can also vouch that when I was there, int'ls did at least as well in the course as the domestics, with the average probably more motivated (more worried about gaining internship/residency, as per above). As a bit of an aside, it's insane how much the med students here (particularly at UQ, both domestic and int'l) party hard compared to their US counterparts.

Addit:
UQ's GAMSAT cutoff last year was 73 for the normal-stream graduate-entry domestic students. That translates to about 98%ile. Curves can be found on PagingDr:
http://pagingdr.net/forum/index.php?page=9

It's a quandary why such exclusivity doesn't imply super-geniuses the likes of US med students with comparable MCAT performance (imagine a freakin' 37 MCAT cutoff -- not average, but CUTOFF!!). On the other hand, Australians have a very different academic focus than Americans (the more vocational nature of uni is one difference, the dearth of formal grammar training another), there is much less self-selection/self-filtering (no college pre-reqs except at Melbourne) means a much bigger range of abilities among those who take the exam, while there's also the tall poppy syndrome and thus a certain peculiarity to what's acceptably demonstrated intelligence, then there's the ubiquity of alcohol, and students who work part time throughout their education...so many potential contributing factors but still oh so perplexing.

 

[pre med 2014]

Do they really chop the tall poppies more in Australia than anywhere else?

It's pretty bad here in America. Ryan Braun just got a slap on the wrist for doping, Rodriguez is playing again yet Lance Armstrong got burned at the stake just because he doped in a much more difficult sport.

I mean doping is wrong but definitely the culture of chopping the tall poppy is here.

 

[514901]

The reason people here work p/t is because HEX/AUstralian gov't doesn't give as much living allowance as does Grad Plus/Staffords in the US. While US govt essentially rapes students on tuition, it gives enough to live on, while in Australia the students essentially pay nothing to go to medical school but mostly have to depend on their families to provide living expenses.

I mean if there's no USMLE-style exam, unless you are intellectually honest and curious, then there's not going to be an incentive to learn the biomedical sciences beyond using MD notes for the majority of the domestic students. And you can easily find time to get drunk and disregard study when you know all your exam questions in advance.

 

[Phloston]

1) "Tall poppy syndrome" does in fact exist here. One of the differences in the classroom between Australia and the US is that Australians tend to take greater umbrage to debate / questioning. I've found that most students are decorous, like furniture, where they have nothing constructive to vocalize or contribute.

2) It's not very accurate to say that the internationals outpace the domestic students. The internationals demonstrate the greatest range of achievement. Those who get low MCATs are the ones who struggle the most, regardless of their USMLE prep (I once walked past a room full of students attending a meeting about supplementary exams [i.e. for students who didn't pass their UQ exams], and all were American/Canadian), whereas some who are very ahead in the USMLE prep do extremely well (USMLE material far supplants UQ's in terms of breadth).

In other words, it is a small subset of Americans that is most likely to require supps, but it is also a small subset of Americans that will get some of the highest grades.

On the other hand, it is an unequivocal certainty that the highest absolute grades at UQ are achieved by domestic students. The most absurd performances (e.g. 99 on a 71 mean) are always by "twosies," and I'd put money on two or three in every cohort having IQs over 150.

 

[pitman]

1) "Tall poppy syndrome" does in fact exist here. One of the differences in the classroom between Australia and the US is that Australians tend to take greater umbrage to debate / questioning. I've found that most students are decorous, like furniture, where they have nothing constructive to vocalize or contribute.

Yep. In lectures, it was a no-no to ask questions of the lecturer. Certainly it's an artform knowing how/when to ask, and being gratuitous isn't good, but I've never had a uni lecture in the US where the prof didn't expect, or even invite, if not only at set points in the lecture, questions for clarity or to outright challenge.

 

[Medstart108]

Yep. In lectures, it was a no-no to ask questions of the lecturer. Certainly it's an artform knowing how/when to ask, and being gratuitous isn't good, but I've never had a uni lecture in the US where the prof didn't expect, or even invite, if not only at set points in the lecture, questions for clarity or to outright challenge.

Yeah thats a big difference, there aren't many questions asked during lectures. There is one girl who asks questions and when she asks repeated questions and holds up the entire lecture for 8-10 min it does frustrate me somewhat.

Generally, you can ask questions after the lecture and usually a few people do so.

 

[514901]

1) "Tall poppy syndrome" does in fact exist here. One of the differences in the classroom between Australia and the US is that Australians tend to take greater umbrage to debate / questioning. I've found that most students are decorous, like furniture, where they have nothing constructive to vocalize or contribute.

2) It's not very accurate to say that the internationals outpace the domestic students. The internationals demonstrate the greatest range of achievement. Those who get low MCATs are the ones who struggle the most, regardless of their USMLE prep (I once walked past a room full of students attending a meeting about supplementary exams [i.e. for students who didn't pass their UQ exams], and all were American/Canadian), whereas some who are very ahead in the USMLE prep do extremely well (USMLE material far supplants UQ's in terms of breadth).

In other words, it is a small subset of Americans that is most likely to require supps, but it is also a small subset of Americans that will get some of the highest grades.

On the other hand, it is an unequivocal certainty that the highest absolute grades at UQ are achieved by domestic students. The most absurd performances (e.g. 99 on a 71 mean) are always by "twosies," and I'd put money on two or three in every cohort having IQs over 150.

I guess we had a much different experience. The 'twosies' or whatever are excellent at memorizing student notes but all the (in my subjective experience) most intelligent students were internationals.

Also, it was published that the internationals do indeed have higher marks on examinations than do the domestics.

Deciding who is smarter is a subjective exercise but as mentioned before, I rarely found the domestics to be focused on anything more than what was to be examined and to exhibit anything less than a herd mentality in all facets of their education.