Can the med-school you go to really have that much of an effect on residency?

[Ravendown]

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Residency placement i meant. I ask this, as i was reading on the pre-med section about NYU Vs. MT. Sinai Medical Center. People said that NYU had better residency placement, but Mt. Sinai didn't? I've been to both schools [not as one of their students] and they are both great. I'd go for MT. Sinai though; it's just got a happier atmosphere and i think it's the best hospital out of the two. I thought that residency placement depended on STEP 1 and the clinical grades in year 3/4. Correct me if i'm wrong please; still very ignorant about all of this.

 

[lord_jeebus]

Can your choice of school affect where you match? Yes.

Can your choice of school between Mt. Sinai and NYU affect where you match? Only if your #1 choice is Mt. Sinai or NYU.

 

[tremulousNeedle]

The residency match depends on a lot of things, just like getting into medical school does (PS, EC's, LORs, grades, boards, interview, research, school attended, etc). Similar process, just four years later. Awesome EC's, LORs, grades, and board scores can make up for any low-tier US school you go to.

 

[klmnop]

Can the undergrad-school you go to really have that much of an affect on med school?

Can the high school you go to really have that much of an affect on undergrad-school?

Can the amount of time spent being breast-fed really have that much of an affect on the social development?

Its all about probabilities and success rates. Its is commonly understood that: better med school = better opportunity to learn more and perform better = better EC opportunities = better LORs. This is obviously not always the case, but the probability increases. In fact, the differnece between the quality of two med schools is much less than the difference between the quality of two undergrad programs. I'd go to the school at which you can succeed given the academic, financial, and socio-environmental factors.

 

[causalinference]

The medical school that you attend only has a small effect on where you match. It's one of the least important factors. Your USMLE Step 1 score, clinical rotation grades, recommendations, and research are all more important.

 

[rama kandra]

depends how gullible you are

 

[loljkttyl]

The medical school that you attend only has a small effect on where you match. It's one of the least important factors. Your USMLE Step 1 score, clinical rotation grades, recommendations, and research are all more important.

The AAMC actually polled residency program directors about this and published their findings here: http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf

If you look at the bottom of pg 3, you'll see that the medical school you attend is one of the least important factors. USMLE Step 1, MSPE (aka Dean's Letter), clinical grades, and LOR's are far more important.

 

[GoLytely]

As someone who's recently been through the residency selection process, please do not listen to these people telling you that the tier of your medical school is less important than most other factors. The ranking of the school you go to plays an enormous role.

This works out well for you, since you've somehow gotten the (IMHO erroneous) idea that NYU is more highly regarded. Sinai's internal medicine residency program is probably considered a full tier higher than NYU's. Going to Mt Sinai over NYU would very likely make it considerably easier for you to get into many higher tier residency programs.

I'm no stranger to the program directors' supposed rankings of applicant characteristics, but I can tell you that many of them are just plain misleading. People tend to have similar MSPEs across the board, save for the last "money" line (outstanding recommendation vs excellent, great, good, etc.), and people putting forth an average med school performance tend to attend a residency program within the same tier as their medical school. Those who move upward or downward tend to have done something remarkable, in either a good or bad way.

 

[tremulousNeedle]

As someone who's recently been through the residency selection process, please do not listen to these people telling you that the tier of your medical school is less important than most other factors. The ranking of the school you go to plays an enormous role.

So if I also just went through the residency match process and I disagree, does that mean our opinions cancel each other?

I partly agree, everything else being equal, of course a more well regarded medical school helps in the match process more than a less well regarded school (not sure if "enormous" would be the word I would use).

However, I don't think it is that clear-cut. First, this is very specialty dependent. I am entering Emergency Medicine and the process is a little less cut-throat than other specialties (EM is more or less slightly above average in competitiveness - at least for positions in established programs). Also, the ranking of EM programs is less well defined than for other specialties. Second, unfortunately board scores can open or close numerous doors; it is probably more influential than any other single factor. I will be graduating from a mid-tier med school. I was fortunate to do very well on step 1, plus the rest of my application was solid and I interview well, so I was pretty much able to choose where I went to residency (even had programs pursuing me, which was a little weird). Given my same application, but a more average USMLE, I would not have been so competitive. I guess my point is (sounding very melodramatic) that you will have control over your destiny.

 

[whoknows2012]

As someone who's recently been through the residency selection process, please do not listen to these people telling you that the tier of your medical school is less important than most other factors. The ranking of the school you go to plays an enormous role.

This works out well for you, since you've somehow gotten the (IMHO erroneous) idea that NYU is more highly regarded. Sinai's internal medicine residency program is probably considered a full tier higher than NYU's. Going to Mt Sinai over NYU would very likely make it considerably easier for you to get into many higher tier residency programs.

I'm no stranger to the program directors' supposed rankings of applicant characteristics, but I can tell you that many of them are just plain misleading. People tend to have similar MSPEs across the board, save for the last "money" line (outstanding recommendation vs excellent, great, good, etc.), and people putting forth an average med school performance tend to attend a residency program within the same tier as their medical school. Those who move upward or downward tend to have done something remarkable, in either a good or bad way.

I dont mean this disrespectfully (especially because you have gone through the process already) but how is your anecdotal evidence any different than what someone else in your position would say, that would seem to contradict what you have indicated? I say this because I tend to believe (as would most SDNers) residency directors rankings as well as the vast majority of med students who have also gone through the match process, and proclaim that school ranking is not THAT important (much different from of no importance whatsoever). Also, its not like you said ranking of the school matters more than people think, you literally said it plays an enormous role, and I tend to disagree with that strong of a statement. I go to what would be considered a "low-ranked" school(even though as most people know there isn't much basis for this) and our match list's and board scores over the past 10 years are extremely impressive.

 

[causalinference]

As someone who's recently been through the residency selection process, please do not listen to these people telling you that the tier of your medical school is less important than most other factors. The ranking of the school you go to plays an enormous role.

This is pure hyperbole and you don't have to be in medical school to know it. The residency application process is well-described by participants on SDN and the consensus is that medical school rank/prestige is a secondary consideration. That consensus is further supported by the AAMC poll cited above. Medical school rank/prestige can be advantageous but it's not particularly important. Of course, it's understandable that some students at top-tier medical schools would like to believe otherwise.

 

[jbz24]

I dont mean this disrespectfully (especially because you have gone through the process already) but how is your anecdotal evidence any different than what someone else in your position would say, that would seem to contradict what you have indicated? I say this because I tend to believe (as would most SDNers) residency directors rankings as well as the vast majority of med students who have also gone through the match process, and proclaim that school ranking is not THAT important (much different from of no importance whatsoever). Also, its not like you said ranking of the school matters more than people think, you literally said it plays an enormous role, and I tend to disagree with that strong of a statement. I go to what would be considered a "low-ranked" school(even though as most people know there isn't much basis for this) and our match list's and board scores over the past 10 years are extremely impressive.

I think most people who went through the match would agree that the school you go to is important for residency. Of course, the most important thing are your board scores, grades, and AOA/PhD status, but below that are your LORs, research, and the school you attend. The MSPE itself does not hold that much importance because programs are well aware of your grades by the time the MSPE goes out. Really, if you look at any highly rated program, it is generally dominated by students from top medical schools. You'll definitely see students from lower tier schools also, but those are the cream of the crop students from their respective schools.

I really do believe that the people on SDN who perpetuate the myth that your med school having little to no influence on your residency application are those that attend lower tier schools.

 

[GoLytely]

Maybe this will be easier for pre-meds to accept:

Somebody from a top ten medical school (harvard, hopkins, penn, columbia, etc.) WILL get into a top tier residency program even with a mediocre application, because that's the level they're playing on already. Somebody at a mid-range school will have to break barriers to get into a top 10 residency program.

Was I trying to suggest that subtle differences in reputation will be considered important factors? No. And perhaps the difference between NYU and Sinai is one of those subtle differences. But given the effect I've seen medical school reputation have on residency placement, I'd encourage an applicant (who already, in fact, likes Sinai better anyway) to definitely choose Sinai.

 

[whoknows2012]

I think most people who went through the match would agree that the school you go to is important for residency. Of course, the most important thing are your board scores, grades, and AOA/PhD status, but below that are your LORs, research, and the school you attend. The MSPE itself does not hold that much importance because programs are well aware of your grades by the time the MSPE goes out. Really, if you look at any highly rated program, it is generally dominated by students from top medical schools. You'll definitely see students from lower tier schools also, but those are the cream of the crop students from their respective schools.

I really do believe that the people on SDN who perpetuate the myth that your med school having little to no influence on your residency application are those that attend lower tier schools.

And I'm assuming you attend a higher tier school? Maybe I should get on my knees and kiss your feet? Seriously though, how bout you guys provide evidence other than saying that most high ranked programs have mostly students from high ranked schools. That means absolutely nothing, and there can be many reasons why this is the case.

 

[GoLytely]

I really do believe that the people on SDN who perpetuate the myth that your med school having little to no influence on your residency application are those that attend lower tier schools.

This is definitely true, and they'll learn somewhat harshly during interview season that, unless they were top 5% in their class, some of those invites they were expecting may not turn up.

This was also my experience, from a mid-tier medical school, but luckily the one place I'd been hoping to match at all along DID interview me and thankfully did rank me high enough to match. So - lesson learned with no associated pain. Be realistic, but keep your heads up.

 

[jbz24]

And I'm assuming you attend a higher tier school? Maybe I should get on my knees and kiss your feet? Seriously though, how bout you guys provide evidence other than saying that most high ranked programs have mostly students from high ranked schools. That means absolutely nothing, and there can be many reasons why this is the case.

I go to a good school but no top 10. I'm not stating this to brag, but to bring some balance to the discussion. I'd be more than happy to bring some evidence - pick a specialty/program and I'll try and find a listing of where the residents came from. I can do this for IM if you want since that's what I matched into.

 

[whoknows2012]

Thats fine, contrary to what it may have seemed from my tone originally, I don't like speaking from a position of not knowing the complete story. So if you'll provide that it would be great. The other thing is that when this conversation started there was no mention of top 10 programs. That is a separate issue entirely and my understanding of this thread was more of question as to what specialty you may match into and not how good the program you match into is...

 

[jbz24]

Thats fine, contrary to what it may have seemed from my tone originally, I don't like speaking from a position of not knowing the complete story. So if you'll provide that it would be great. The other thing is that when this conversation started there was no mention of top 10 programs. That is a separate issue entirely and my understanding of this thread was more of question as to what specialty you may match into and not how good the program you match into is...

You're right, I was talking about the caliber of the program and not the specialty. I do agree it matters less (although still matters somewhat) for just matching into a certain specialty.

I was going to post the four NYC IM house staff, but I can only find Columbia and Cornell at the moment.

http://www.columbiamedicine.org/education/r_staff.shtml
http://www.cornellmedicine.com/educ...ram/documents/2010ResidencyMatchListFINAL.pdf

You can count them up, but they are at least 2/3 from top 25 schools and the rest are mid tiers for the most part. Some lower tiers but not that many.

 

[klmnop]

I know its too much to ask, but a more useful statistic isn't the number of top tier students that get into these residency programs (as their are fewer top tier than all other categories) vs. mid-tier , but the number of top tier students that tried to match at these locations vs. the number that did... and compare this to mid-tier schools.

Anyway, far too complicated because this type of data isn't published for the most part is it.

 

[causalinference]

Don't confuse correlation with causation. Higher-tier residency programs are dominated by students from higher-tier medical schools, but the question is why? Is it because the students attended higher-tier medical schools? I highly doubt that. What's more likely is that their applications (i.e., board scores, clinical grades, recommendations) were better than those from lower-tier medical schools.

 

[whoknows2012]

Basically I don't think many of us here would argue that if you wanted to do ortho for example (which is obv highly competitive in and of itself) and you matched into a program in a location you wanted to be in, I could give two craps about the prestige of the program.

 

[jbz24]

Don't confuse correlation with causation. Higher-tier residency programs are dominated by students from higher-tier medical schools, but the question is why? Is it because the students attended higher-tier medical schools? I highly doubt that. What's more likely is that their applications (i.e., board scores, clinical grades, recommendations) were better than those from lower-tier medical schools.

Yes, it is because students attended higher tier medical schools. Not everyone from higher tier schools do well on their boards or get honors on every rotation (half of the class will fall below their average), yet they consistently match into high tier residency programs. I feel like this argument constantly comes up when comparing match lists.

 

[klmnop]

Basically I don't think many of us here would argue that if you wanted to do ortho for example (which is obv highly competitive in and of itself) and you matched into a program in a location you wanted to be in, I could give two craps about the prestige of the program.

Agreed, but then you could easily argue that the better med school will contribute toward a higher probability you get any residency position you want, including the less prestigious one in your most-coveted location.

 

[whoknows2012]

Agreed, but then you could easily argue that the better med school will contribute toward a higher probability you get any residency position you want, including the less prestigious one in your most-coveted location.

I disagree...you yourself will be the limiting factor not the school you attend.

 

[klmnop]

I disagree...you yourself will be the limiting factor not the school you attend.

Largely, however as has been discussed below, often times students at top tier schools perform better on their boards (i admittedly have no data in front of me) because of the supposed higher educational quality.

an extreme parallel: coming from the D, most kids that go to downtown schools do several standard deviations worse on state exams and college entrance exams despite their gpa, than suburban schools to the north because of nothing more than educational quality and preparation within the curriculum. there are a large handful of students that outperform their peers in the D, however more students from the suburban schools will end up getting into better colleges as a result of perceived rigor and prestige.

 

[jbz24]

Largely, however as has been discussed below, often times students at top tier schools perform better on their boards (i admittedly have no data in front of me) because of the supposed higher educational quality.

an extreme parallel: coming from the D, most kids that go to downtown schools do several standard deviations worse on state and college entrance exams despite their gpa, than suburban schools to the north because of nothing more than educational quality and preparation within the curriculum. there are a large handful of students that outperform their peers in the D, however more students from the suburban schools will end up getting into better colleges.

Actually, average board scores at top tier schools are not really any better than those from mid/lower tier. Which further substantiates the point that students from top tier schools are not necessarily performing any better yet match into top programs.

 

[klmnop]

Fair enough... it seems we've gone full circle

 

[whoknows2012]

Fair enough... it seems we've gone full circle

LOL I was just going to say that to bring this thing full circle no matter where you end up perform at the highest level possible and you probably wont have to worry about matching into a speciality of your choice (that is unless its Derm.)

 

[klmnop]

speaking of which, why do people want derm? to be ignorant...it seems so boring and inconsequential. is it because you have the abilities of a physician with the lifestyle of a dentist... cause they should just be a dentist where you make more money.

 

[whoknows2012]

Honestly its a great lifestyle, you'll make a crapload of money, but it is not something that is of interest to me. If I got a 260 on my boards and had an amazing CV I'd probably still pursue EM or maybe ENT or Optho

 

[Bbon]

For those that think your medical school is a big factor, would you say going to Michigan over UNC would provide any significant edge? I've been assuming not really, but wanted some outside opinion with May 15 approaching.

 

[Parts Unknown]

For those that think your medical school is a big factor, would you say going to Michigan over UNC would provide any significant edge? I've been assuming not really, but wanted some outside opinion with May 15 approaching.

If those are your choices, go cheap.

 

[Parts Unknown]

Maybe this will be easier for pre-meds to accept:

Somebody from a top ten medical school (harvard, hopkins, penn, columbia, etc.) WILL get into a top tier residency program even with a mediocre application, because that's the level they're playing on already. Somebody at a mid-range school will have to break barriers to get into a top 10 residency program.

I'd like to see your data. Thanks!

 

[faw20]

I would argue that regional preferences play a large role in residency match, at least on the applicant side.

Perspective-I recently matched, and attend a lower tier US allopathic school in the midwest.
Observation-I had several classmates interview at some of these alleged "top tier" places, but chose (read: ranked higher, not this was their only option) instead to go to regional powerhouses due to family constraints pushing them to stay close to home. The top-tier places mentioned in this thread are all east coast. Just a thought.

Anyways, my advice is to go to whatever medical school you feel like you would succeed the most at, even if it is slightly less prestigious. If you succeed in years 1-2, then you're more likely to perform better on Step 1, which is ultimately more important than where you went to school. A school name might open an extra door or two, but you actually have to do the leg work to prove you deserve that opportunity.

 

[thesauce]

Can your choice of school affect where you match? Yes.

Can your choice of school between Mt. Sinai and NYU affect where you match? Only if your #1 choice is Mt. Sinai or NYU.

This really sums it up nicely.

Yes, school rank may make a difference but I think people are slicing it up too much. Most PD's are not aware of the latest USNWR rankings. They aren't going to know the difference between the 25th and 30th ranked school (for example). They might say: "this guy went to Yale and this guy went to NEOUCOM, let's interview the Yale guy," but they aren't giving preference to a school that's a handful of ranks higher (unless it's their home program).

 

[mtwop]

Similar question as before. Oregon Health and Sciences, Nevada or Arizona and in which order? I'm curious to hear since I have all their match lists