Can you ask to work involuntarily?

[GASMAN]

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A AMC is asking all post call docs to work involuntarily due to short staff? Docs will be paid extra but not at a rate that most docs want. So basically it is a money issue.
Normally one get post call off, that's why they pay for this work.
Can one be terminated from this if refuse to work post call?

Of course they can always come up with a BS reason to fire you.
Contract is vague, no particular mention of this. Only state one has to work about 40 hours per week minimum.

Any input?

 

[aneftp]

Quit is all I will say.

Walk the walk.

Amazing how quickly they will come up with extra cash.

And I’m being serious

 

[deleted1130227]

Quit is all I will say.

Walk the walk.

Amazing how quickly they will come up with extra cash.

And I’m being serious

Agree...but...You have to be prepared for the guy on the other side of the table making a multi million dollar mistake because he has no skin in the game. It is not his money. I've seen that more than once. Bet you have too.

 

[Dantrolene FC]

This is why I’m thankful my contract states an hourly rate I get paid for unscheduled work. It’s foolish to be pure salary with no extra pay for extra work.

 

[aneftp]

This is why I’m thankful my contract states an hourly rate I get paid for unscheduled work. It’s foolish to be pure salary with no extra pay for extra work.

The op is getting paid an hourly extra pay for unscheduled work.

It’s likely less than $300/hr. Maybe $250/hr?
Getting taxed w2 35-37% plus Medicare taxes 1.45% plus medicare surtax 0.9% plus potentially state income taxes (up to 11%?)

Even at $300/hr extra pay you are likely taking home $160/170 an hr after taxes w2 for that extra pay. And that’s assuming op is even getting $300/hr

I’d rather just sit at home and chill than work post call

Now if amc agrees maybe to pay them at least 8 hrs extra pay and the post call doc gets to leave at 11am just to help the day get started. That may be better.

 

[Maverikk]

Once you bend over expect to stay in that position. Talk to your leadership, get everyone on the same page. I was talking about job contracts with a good locums CRNA who was relatively new being completely blown away that doctors signed contracts without their hours being spelled out/overtime pay etc. It’s a good lesson, when signing with a hospital-employed/AMC/hourly model; even my friend in academics is contemplating leaving because they’re getting so short staffed and his contract is salaried with ‘approximately 45 hours/week’….hes been doing a minimum of 50 for almost a year, it adds up and grinds you down when you’re missing dinner more often than not, can’t get a day to take care of normal things.

 

[amyl]

This is what happened at my old amc… asked to work after 24h if in house level one trauma call. We really were asked but I was often asked multiple times in the same day by different people making the schedule or leadership. I refused as did two others and there was always the disappointed sigh or resigned “all right.” we were the exceptions… everyone else went along. Of note the three of us that refused to sell out are no longer with that amc. We all have horrendous non competes. It cost us all lots emotionally, financially and required sacrifices from our families.
Quit. Look for another job, refuse in the mean time. Even if it means moving - quit.
The market is too good for anesthesia - you can find a good job it just may not be in your backyard. Local amc monopolies run local markets and change is slow.
I thank my lucky stars that I had the balls to make a change and not put up with the bull****. My only regrets are the time I wasted trying to fix the amc from within and not leaving sooner.

 

[pgg]

Can one be terminated from this if refuse to work post call?

Why are you asking us what your contract says?

Edit - that came across unintentionally sarcastic. What I mean is the terms for overtime should be in your contract. Beyond that, only you can really know what subtle or not-subtle abuse you might catch for not being a "team player".

 

[aneftp]

There is a lot of pressure to work extra w2 to make up for short staffing but do not accept straight hours to work extra.

Envision, team health and even usap have "uber surge" crna pricing up to $265/hr for their w2 crna to work extra in Florida. Those are facts.. Key word being uber surge pricing. Don't take the straight extra w2 hourly wages. Like I said before it should be something fair like gurantee 8 hrs if they wanna to stick to the straight hourly extra pay. This young doc did 2 gi cases with a crna for lowly $225/hr extra pay post call but she was paid 8 hrs and left at 9am to go home post call. That's fair.

 

[GASMAN]

Thank you all for all the advice and sharing your experiences!
Our docs are mostly stick together. Mostly because there are few docs (may be 2 out of 25) that wants the money regardless the rate and circumstances.

I have heard a group refusing to roll back patients after 5p if the docs are not on call because of no overtime.

That group was taken in house by the hospital the next year.

 

[kidthor]

To be sure you’re not working involuntarily if you voluntarily show up. You could just refuse - on many grounds including safety, contract breach, or even because you just don’t want to. The fact that they’re short staffed isn’t ultimately your problem or responsibility.

 

[ucladoc2b]

I have heard a group refusing to roll back patients after 5p if the docs are not on call because of no overtime.

That’s not unreasonable.

 

[Maverikk]

I have heard a group refusing to roll back patients after 5p if the docs are not on call because of no overtime.

That group was taken in house by the hospital the next year.

Wonder if they get overtime now

 

[aneftp]

Wonder if they get overtime now

most of the employed hospitals in house w2 contracts I have run across in South Carolina Florida and Georgia in the last 12 months have language for extra paying ranging from $250-350/hr above 40 hr. It’s rather fair. There is also language for beeper stipend and cardiac beeper stipend.

People send me contracts to look over. We all share information. Just to gauge the market.

 

[cowbydoc]

Just for an example for the OP- we got taken in house this year. There was a collaborative effort to define after hours pay rates at our level 1 trauma center.
$500/hr after 5pm
$625/hr for 7:30am-3:30pm for the overnight call person (makes the shift a 24 hour shift)
$700/hr for post overnight work. Nobody has been asked to do this so far.
$10,000 for a reasonable weekend.
$5,000 for a ten hour “vacation buy back” weekday
The thought was the hospital would pay these rates if they got locums so why not pay your own people premium money. Everyone is happy with these rates so far.

 

[kidthor]

Just for an example for the OP- we got taken in house this year. There was a collaborative effort to define after hours pay rates at our level 1 trauma center.
$500/hr after 5pm
$625/hr for 7:30am-3:30pm for the overnight call person (makes the shift a 24 hour shift)
$700/hr for post overnight work. Nobody has been asked to do this so far.
$10,000 for a reasonable weekend.
$5,000 for a ten hour “vacation buy back” weekday
The thought was the hospital would pay these rates if they got locums so why not pay your own people premium money. Everyone is happy with these rates so far.

On the one hand seems high, yet you're totally right that's how much it'd cost them for locums. Excellent negotiation! I'm glad we as a profession are finally getting paid what we're worth.

 

[GASMAN]

Just for an example for the OP- we got taken in house this year. There was a collaborative effort to define after hours pay rates at our level 1 trauma center.
$500/hr after 5pm
$625/hr for 7:30am-3:30pm for the overnight call person (makes the shift a 24 hour shift)
$700/hr for post overnight work. Nobody has been asked to do this so far.
$10,000 for a reasonable weekend.
$5,000 for a ten hour “vacation buy back” weekday
The thought was the hospital would pay these rates if they got locums so why not pay your own people premium money. Everyone is happy with these rates so far.

Will one ever see this offer from AMCs? Probably never.

 

[aneftp]

Will one ever see this offer from AMCs? Probably never.

many ways to skin a cat with wording on extra pay

The young doc working post call got paid lowly $225/hr extra. She basically was there 2 hrs and got paid 8 hrs. That’s equivalent of $900/hr to work post call.

 

[AppTrail]

many ways to skin a cat with wording on extra pay

The young doc working post call got paid lowly $225/hr extra. She basically was there 2 hrs and got paid 8 hrs. That’s equivalent of $900/hr to work post call.

AMC I'm at will not pay 8 hour pay for 2hours of work. They would rather shut down an OR.

AMCs also don't offer anything ober 225/250 hr for extra work. Why not? Because if they offered reasonable rates, then people would just go PRN/Flex and no one would stay full time. They'd rather lock in FTEs/W2 with a bonus and keep pay stagnant for 2-3 years, and pay locums. Sadly there are enough older/lazy PRN/flex docs in my area that are willing to work for 225/hr since they don't have to sit in a room.

 

[aneftp]

AMC I'm at will not pay 8 hour pay for 2hours of work. They would rather shut down an OR.

AMCs also don't offer anything ober 225/250 hr for extra work. Why not? Because if they offered reasonable rates, then people would just go PRN/Flex and no one would stay full time. They'd rather lock in FTEs/W2 with a bonus and keep pay stagnant for 2-3 years, and pay locums. Sadly there are enough older/lazy PRN/flex docs in my area that are willing to work for 225/hr since they don't have to sit in a room.

I’d just say I’m unavailable to work overtime.

That’s how I roll
They can let me go without cause since I’m abiding by terms of my contract.

If they force u, cry like a woman with balls like amy said lol. And claim safety reasons.

HR will have a field day trying to handle the safety angle.

I’ve been around a long time to know my rights as employee and independent contract. When you are w2 employee u can request reasonable accommodations as well.

It’s fun when HR gets involved.

 

[AppTrail]

I’d just say I’m unavailable to work overtime.

That’s how I roll
They can let me go without cause since I’m abiding by terms of my contract.

If they force u, cry like a woman with balls like amy said lol. And claim safety reasons.

HR will have a field day trying to handle the safety angle.

I’ve been around a long time to know my rights as employee and independent contract. When you are w2 employee u can request reasonable accommodations as well.

It’s fun when HR gets involved.

Yes this is completely voluntary so I rarely sign up. Usually help out 2-3x a year

 

[GASMAN]

Rumor has it that those people refuse will be fired.

 

[aneftp]

Yes this is completely voluntary so I rarely sign up. Usually help out 2-3x a year

99% of the time. Someone in the practice will take the extra cash. Someone always wants or needs the extra money.

I just don’t know if it’s take it at $225/250/hr without some 8 hr gurantee.

I’m not gonna to wake up at 530-545am and come in to work 2-4 hrs and help out.

Now if I were post call in house that’s a little different mindset.

 

[circleK]

Rumor has it that those people refuse will be fired.

That sounds like an admin bluff. There’s no way they fire nearly your whole group in this market and shut down nearly all of their ORs.

 

[GravelRider]

Something doesn’t compute here. They are outright telling you they are short staffed and need you to “involuntarily” work post call. They are showing you their hand. Why on earth would you “involuntarily” work post call at some below market rate? Tell them no, demand an astronomical rate for post call work, or hand them a letter of resignation. You have the upper hand.

For me to even start to consider post-call work (assuming a reasonably busy or in-house call), the rate would have to be $800/hr or more. A light home call situation, and I might think about it at $500/hr.

 

[ZeZe]

That sounds like an admin bluff. There’s no way they fire nearly your whole group in this market and shut down nearly all of their ORs.

Problem is most likely some people in that group will agree with whatever the hospital wants under the guise of "patient care"

 

[caligas]

Something doesn’t compute here. They are outright telling you they are short staffed and need you to “involuntarily” work post call. They are showing you their hand. Why on earth would you “involuntarily” work post call at some below market rate? Tell them no, demand an astronomical rate for post call work, or hand them a letter of resignation. You have the upper hand.

For me to even start to consider post-call work (assuming a reasonably busy or in-house call), the rate would have to be $800/hr or more. A light home call situation, and I might think about it at $500/hr.

I know the market is good but does anyone have an evidence of any institution paying any anesthesiologist $800/hr?

 

[aneftp]

I know the market is good but does anyone have an evidence of any institution paying any anesthesiologist $800/hr?

Not routinely

I operate on guarantees. That’s why I said the doc getting $225/hr post call only worked 2 hr and got paid 8 hr. That’s $900/hr

Could she have worked 6 hrs? Possibly but the other docs try to get the post call doc out first. It’s unwritten rule to help each other.

 

[GravelRider]

I know the market is good but does anyone have an evidence of any institution paying any anesthesiologist $800/hr?

That’s not the point. The point is I don’t want to work post call and those hours are more valuable to me because I’m tired, so the rate I would be willing to work for is $800/hr. Although, even at that rate I would still likely say no. However, a $300/hr with 8 hour guarantee and only working 3 hours would also be effectively $800/hr.

The point with these situations is to not make it easy for an employer to rely on overworking their current staff when they are understaffed.

 

[circleK]

I know the market is good but does anyone have an evidence of any institution paying any anesthesiologist $800/hr?

If we were to be needed post-call we would get a “full shift” and also be first out, so effectively yes. But we have been fully/appropriately staffed for a while now so hasn’t been needed.

 

[cchoukal]

I know the market is good but does anyone have an evidence of any institution paying any anesthesiologist $800/hr?

The most I’ve been offered in my locale is 500/hr when one of my side hustle shops has been very desperate.

 

[rick roller pump]

Unless your call is insanely light, this really isn't safe. I worked about 4 hours post 24h (voluntarily) a few months ago and will not do it again. It really is not fair to you or your patients.

 

[deleted1130227]

Unless your call is insanely light, this really isn't safe. I worked about 4 hours post 24h (voluntarily) a few months ago and will not do it again. It really is not fair to you or your patients.

Also depends on individual stamina, post call assignments, etc.