Can you ask to work involuntarily?

[GASMAN]

A AMC is asking all post call docs to work involuntarily due to short staff? Docs will be paid extra but not at a rate that most docs want. So basically it is a money issue.
Normally one get post call off, that's why they pay for this work.
Can one be terminated from this if refuse to work post call?

Of course they can always come up with a BS reason to fire you.
Contract is vague, no particular mention of this. Only state one has to work about 40 hours per week minimum.

Any input?

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[aneftp]

Quit is all I will say.

Walk the walk.

Amazing how quickly they will come up with extra cash.

And I’m being serious

 

[Xman5678]

Quit is all I will say.

Walk the walk.

Amazing how quickly they will come up with extra cash.

And I’m being serious

Agree...but...You have to be prepared for the guy on the other side of the table making a multi million dollar mistake because he has no skin in the game. It is not his money. I've seen that more than once. Bet you have too.

 

[Dantrolene FC]

This is why I’m thankful my contract states an hourly rate I get paid for unscheduled work. It’s foolish to be pure salary with no extra pay for extra work.

 

[aneftp]

This is why I’m thankful my contract states an hourly rate I get paid for unscheduled work. It’s foolish to be pure salary with no extra pay for extra work.

The op is getting paid an hourly extra pay for unscheduled work.

It’s likely less than $300/hr. Maybe $250/hr?
Getting taxed w2 35-37% plus Medicare taxes 1.45% plus medicare surtax 0.9% plus potentially state income taxes (up to 11%?)

Even at $300/hr extra pay you are likely taking home $160/170 an hr after taxes w2 for that extra pay. And that’s assuming op is even getting $300/hr

I’d rather just sit at home and chill than work post call

Now if amc agrees maybe to pay them at least 8 hrs extra pay and the post call doc gets to leave at 11am just to help the day get started. That may be better.

 

[Maverikk]

Once you bend over expect to stay in that position. Talk to your leadership, get everyone on the same page. I was talking about job contracts with a good locums CRNA who was relatively new being completely blown away that doctors signed contracts without their hours being spelled out/overtime pay etc. It’s a good lesson, when signing with a hospital-employed/AMC/hourly model; even my friend in academics is contemplating leaving because they’re getting so short staffed and his contract is salaried with ‘approximately 45 hours/week’….hes been doing a minimum of 50 for almost a year, it adds up and grinds you down when you’re missing dinner more often than not, can’t get a day to take care of normal things.

 

[amyl]

This is what happened at my old amc… asked to work after 24h if in house level one trauma call. We really were asked but I was often asked multiple times in the same day by different people making the schedule or leadership. I refused as did two others and there was always the disappointed sigh or resigned “all right.” we were the exceptions… everyone else went along. Of note the three of us that refused to sell out are no longer with that amc. We all have horrendous non competes. It cost us all lots emotionally, financially and required sacrifices from our families.
Quit. Look for another job, refuse in the mean time. Even if it means moving - quit.
The market is too good for anesthesia - you can find a good job it just may not be in your backyard. Local amc monopolies run local markets and change is slow.
I thank my lucky stars that I had the balls to make a change and not put up with the bull****. My only regrets are the time I wasted trying to fix the amc from within and not leaving sooner.

 

[pgg]

Can one be terminated from this if refuse to work post call?

Why are you asking us what your contract says?

Edit - that came across unintentionally sarcastic. What I mean is the terms for overtime should be in your contract. Beyond that, only you can really know what subtle or not-subtle abuse you might catch for not being a "team player".

 

[aneftp]

There is a lot of pressure to work extra w2 to make up for short staffing but do not accept straight hours to work extra.

Envision, team health and even usap have "uber surge" crna pricing up to $265/hr for their w2 crna to work extra in Florida. Those are facts.. Key word being uber surge pricing. Don't take the straight extra w2 hourly wages. Like I said before it should be something fair like gurantee 8 hrs if they wanna to stick to the straight hourly extra pay. This young doc did 2 gi cases with a crna for lowly $225/hr extra pay post call but she was paid 8 hrs and left at 9am to go home post call. That's fair.

 

[GASMAN]

Thank you all for all the advice and sharing your experiences!
Our docs are mostly stick together. Mostly because there are few docs (may be 2 out of 25) that wants the money regardless the rate and circumstances.

I have heard a group refusing to roll back patients after 5p if the docs are not on call because of no overtime.

That group was taken in house by the hospital the next year.

 

[kidthor]

To be sure you’re not working involuntarily if you voluntarily show up. You could just refuse - on many grounds including safety, contract breach, or even because you just don’t want to. The fact that they’re short staffed isn’t ultimately your problem or responsibility.

 

[ucladoc2b]

I have heard a group refusing to roll back patients after 5p if the docs are not on call because of no overtime.

That’s not unreasonable.

 

[Maverikk]

I have heard a group refusing to roll back patients after 5p if the docs are not on call because of no overtime.

That group was taken in house by the hospital the next year.

Wonder if they get overtime now

 

[aneftp]

Wonder if they get overtime now

most of the employed hospitals in house w2 contracts I have run across in South Carolina Florida and Georgia in the last 12 months have language for extra paying ranging from $250-350/hr above 40 hr. It’s rather fair. There is also language for beeper stipend and cardiac beeper stipend.

People send me contracts to look over. We all share information. Just to gauge the market.

 

[cowbydoc]

Just for an example for the OP- we got taken in house this year. There was a collaborative effort to define after hours pay rates at our level 1 trauma center.
$500/hr after 5pm
$625/hr for 7:30am-3:30pm for the overnight call person (makes the shift a 24 hour shift)
$700/hr for post overnight work. Nobody has been asked to do this so far.
$10,000 for a reasonable weekend.
$5,000 for a ten hour “vacation buy back” weekday
The thought was the hospital would pay these rates if they got locums so why not pay your own people premium money. Everyone is happy with these rates so far.

 

[kidthor]

Just for an example for the OP- we got taken in house this year. There was a collaborative effort to define after hours pay rates at our level 1 trauma center.
$500/hr after 5pm
$625/hr for 7:30am-3:30pm for the overnight call person (makes the shift a 24 hour shift)
$700/hr for post overnight work. Nobody has been asked to do this so far.
$10,000 for a reasonable weekend.
$5,000 for a ten hour “vacation buy back” weekday
The thought was the hospital would pay these rates if they got locums so why not pay your own people premium money. Everyone is happy with these rates so far.

One the one hand seems high, yet you're totally right that that's how much it'd cost them for locums. Excellent negotiation! I'm glad we as a profession are finally getting paid what we're worth.

 

[GASMAN]

Just for an example for the OP- we got taken in house this year. There was a collaborative effort to define after hours pay rates at our level 1 trauma center.
$500/hr after 5pm
$625/hr for 7:30am-3:30pm for the overnight call person (makes the shift a 24 hour shift)
$700/hr for post overnight work. Nobody has been asked to do this so far.
$10,000 for a reasonable weekend.
$5,000 for a ten hour “vacation buy back” weekday
The thought was the hospital would pay these rates if they got locums so why not pay your own people premium money. Everyone is happy with these rates so far.

Will one ever see this offer from AMCs? Probably never.

 

[aneftp]

Will one ever see this offer from AMCs? Probably never.

many ways to skin a cat with wording on extra pay

The young doc working post call got paid lowly $225/hr extra. She basically was there 2 hrs and got paid 8 hrs. That’s equivalent of $900/hr to work post call.