Can you be in a D.O program and still become a neurosurgeon?

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Noodles4444

Noodles4444

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Hello,

I have always been interested in neurosurgery as long as I can remember and now that I'm getting closer to make this dream a reality I wanted some advice before making any decision on how I should approach this. Generally, most neurosurgeons are M.D.'s, however I have found myself more intrigued with the D.O. program (not due to grades, but just interested in the holistic aspect of medicine ), and was wondering if there is even a route that leads to neurosurgery. With all this said, I do understand that my interests may change as i am going through residencies, fellowships etc., but until that day doesn't come I want to keep my goal set on neurosurgery.

Any kind of suggestions to comments would be appreciated. Thank you
 
Yes, there are a few AOA neurosurg programs. There is not a lot of info about them, but if you look you can find. I think there a 9ish AOA spots currently, but I don’t know with the merger.
 
New account, 1 post, obvious situation where going DO will be a major hindrance to anyone who even took a cursory look at the data.
2/10 troll level, not falling for it.

Edit: On second thought I think the OP should consider being a Cathopathic Physician. They are super duper holistic and can do anything a DO/MD can!
 
Last edited:
BorntobeDO? said:
New account, 1 post, obvious situation where going DO will be a major hindrance to anyone who even took a cursory look at the data.
2/10 troll level, not falling for it.

Edit: On second thought I think the OP should consider being a Cathopathic Physician. They are super duper holistic and can do anything a DO/MD can!
Click to expand...
hmmm. not that interested in becoming a nurse practitioner. At least not yet
 
N = 1 but a classmate at my DO a school matched neurosurgery this match. Didn’t have a stellar COMLEX score either. In fact it was very average but he interviewed really well I guess!
 
Noodles4444 said:
Hello,

I have always been interested in neurosurgery as long as I can remember and now that I'm getting closer to make this dream a reality I wanted some advice before making any decision on how I should approach this. Generally, most neurosurgeons are M.D.'s, however I have found myself more intrigued with the D.O. program (not due to grades, but just interested in the holistic aspect of medicine ), and was wondering if there is even a route that leads to neurosurgery. With all this said, I do understand that my interests may change as i am going through residencies, fellowships etc., but until that day doesn't come I want to keep my goal set on neurosurgery.

Any kind of suggestions to comments would be appreciated. Thank you
Click to expand...

The short answer to this is - only go DO if you can't get into an MD school. There is no such thing as holistic medicine. It's an advertising scam that the AOA uses to pretend they are somehow better than MDs. If you got suckered by that, then you are gullible enough to believe anyone who tells you that it's fine to go DO if you want neurosurgery (which will be all ACGME in a few years).
 
Yeah, easy. My close group of friends all are planning to get into neurosurgery, and I know 20 people in my DO school who got into neurosurgery this year. /troll
 
sab3156 said:
The short answer to this is - only go DO if you can't get into an MD school. There is no such thing as holistic medicine. It's an advertising scam that the AOA uses to pretend they are somehow better than MDs. If you got suckered by that, then you are gullible enough to believe anyone who tells you that it's fine to go DO if you want neurosurgery (which will be all ACGME in a few years).
Click to expand...
All residencies have to be ACGME in a few years, so does your argument extend to every area of medicine? The inference is that its not fine for a DO to go into any specialty because they will all be ACGME certified. I don’t buy this.
 
You shall know the Truth said:
All residencies have to be ACGME in a few years, so does your argument extend to every area of medicine? The inference is that its not fine for a DO to go into any specialty because they will all be ACGME certified. I don’t buy this.
Click to expand...

How many DOs go into ACGME ophtho, neurosurgery, ENT, etc., each year? Had you calculated these numbers, and perhaps spoken to people in these fields who actually know what they're talking about, you may not have put forward the argument in the first place. Protected AOA spots that always were filled by DOs won't exist anymore.

And purely statistically... yes, that argument does extend to a few other specialties. I would be lying if I looked at all of them, though, so can't tell you much more than the above quoted and a few others. Peds, FM, not really. Ophtho and other ultra-competitive specialties? Absolutely
 
Last edited:
sab3156 said:
How many DOs go into ACGME ophtho, neurosurgery, ENT, etc., each year? Had you calculated these numbers, and perhaps spoken to people in these fields who actually know what they're talking about, you may not have put forward the argument in the first place. Protected AOA spots that always were filled by DOs won't exist anymore.

And purely statistically... yes, that argument does extend to a few other specialties. I would be lying if I looked at all of them, though, so can't tell you much more than the above quoted and a few others. Peds, FM, not really. Ophtho and other ultra-competitive specialties? Absolutely.
Click to expand...
It's common knowledge (or should be) that if you want something uber-competitive then work hard to get that MD. But for the vast majority of us who aren't gunning for the top stuff, DO does just fine (given it isn't one of the newer ones). There's plenty of DOs that match into medium difficult specialties.
I don't think the connotation of the above poster was meant to be taken as you're taking it. Not everything relates to optho, etc
 
Chibucks15 said:
It's common knowledge (or should be) that if you want something uber-competitive then work hard to get that MD. But for the vast majority of us who aren't gunning for the top stuff, DO does just fine (given it isn't one of the newer ones). There's plenty of DOs that match into medium difficult specialties.
I don't think the connotation of the above poster was meant to be taken as you're taking it. Not everything relates to optho, etc
Click to expand...

This entire thread is about neurosurgery. Not primary care, bud. I know you love defending osteopathy, but this thread is definitely not a good place to do that.
 
sab3156 said:
This entire thread is about neurosurgery. Not primary care, bud. I know you love defending osteopathy, but this thread is definitely not a good place to do that.
Click to expand...
Okay the thread is but the specific post you quoted isn't. Also, love the personal attacks but I could care less about osteopathy, no clue where you get that idea. I'm just not hating myself for being in a education path that I CHOSE. Unfortunately you are and I'm sorry for that for you

EDIT: Did you not read the first sentence of my post? It sure doesn't sound like I'm saying DOs can do it all
 
I know this is a troll but I will respond anyway because of some of the naive replies. Several DO neurosurgery residencies have shut down over the last few years. There are a very small amount of spots that will consider DOs. Because of this, it is considerably more (read as highly unlikely) difficult to obtain a neurosurgery residency slot as a DO even if one is at the top of their class, has top board scores and research.

There is no question or debate here. If you’re certain that you want to be a neurosurgeron prior to entering med school, go to an MD school.
 
Do NOT go to a DO school if you want to be a neurosurgeon. Only two AOA programs have made the merger, and MD programs would rather have an MD with a 230 rather than a DO with a 270.

Forget the “holistic” crap. We aren’t any more holistic than MDs.

You shall know the Truth said:
All residencies have to be ACGME in a few years, so does your argument extend to every area of medicine? The inference is that its not fine for a DO to go into any specialty because they will all be ACGME certified. I don’t buy this.
Click to expand...

It’s less prominent in other fields, but being a DO affects residency matching in almost every field.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Do NOT go to a DO school if you want to be a neurosurgeon. Only two AOA programs have made the merger, and MD programs would rather have an MD with a 230 rather than a DO with a 270.

Forget the “holistic” crap. We aren’t any more holistic than MDs.



It’s less prominent in other fields, but being a DO affects residency matching in almost every field.
Click to expand...
We will see what happens post merger. Things may change or they may not.
 
Noodles4444 said:
Hello,

I have always been interested in neurosurgery as long as I can remember and now that I'm getting closer to make this dream a reality I wanted some advice before making any decision on how I should approach this. Generally, most neurosurgeons are M.D.'s, however I have found myself more intrigued with the D.O. program (not due to grades, but just interested in the holistic aspect of medicine ), and was wondering if there is even a route that leads to neurosurgery. With all this said, I do understand that my interests may change as i am going through residencies, fellowships etc., but until that day doesn't come I want to keep my goal set on neurosurgery.

Any kind of suggestions to comments would be appreciated. Thank you
Click to expand...
Yes
/thread.
 
Noodles4444 said:
Hello,

I have always been interested in neurosurgery as long as I can remember and now that I'm getting closer to make this dream a reality I wanted some advice before making any decision on how I should approach this. Generally, most neurosurgeons are M.D.'s, however I have found myself more intrigued with the D.O. program (not due to grades, but just interested in the holistic aspect of medicine ), and was wondering if there is even a route that leads to neurosurgery. With all this said, I do understand that my interests may change as i am going through residencies, fellowships etc., but until that day doesn't come I want to keep my goal set on neurosurgery.

Any kind of suggestions to comments would be appreciated. Thank you
Click to expand...

If you have the option, go MD. Neurosurgery is competitive enough with the academics, politics, etc. You don't need another hit... I'm sorry, that's just the truth, I recently matched.

Please read mine and others' advice to a DO interested in neurosurgery:
DO student wondering about MD NSG chances?

That said, DOs matched into neurosurgery this year. One at SUNY Upstate. There are a handful of AOA accredited programs that are/have transitioned to ACGME.

Bottom line: neurosurgery is insane, the Godfather Cushing had a ridiculous pedigree and pedigree does still matter to some extent, go MD if you can, good luck.

Also, a beautiful narrative:
http://projectwordsworth.com/life-love-neurosurgery/
 
You shall know the Truth said:
We will see what happens post merger. Things may change or they may not.
Click to expand...

We are already seeing what is happening post merger. The top students are matching better than they ever have and the worse students are having a harder time. The bias lessens a little every year, but the merger isn’t going to all of a sudden change a bunch of PD’s minds.

Contrary to the company line we don’t need to wait for 2020 to see what will happen.
 
Osminog said:
How many of your students have matched into neurosurgery over the years?
Click to expand...
3. I never said it was easy. And It's not easy for M.D. either. Just because you have the M.D. doesn't mean you can waltz into an iber-residency. SDNers need to lose that conceit.

Frankly , my kids LIKE Primary Care, which isn't the 7th Circle of Hell pre-meds make it out to be.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Do NOT go to a DO school if you want to be a neurosurgeon. Only two AOA programs have made the merger, and MD programs would rather have an MD with a 230 rather than a DO with a 270.

Forget the “holistic” crap. We aren’t any more holistic than MDs.



It’s less prominent in other fields, but being a DO affects residency matching in almost every field.
Click to expand...

so what happens to the other AOA programs that do not make the merger?
 
Goro said:
3. I never said it was easy. And It's not easy for M.D. either. Just because you have the M.D. doesn't mean you can waltz into an iber-residency. SDNers need to lose that conceit.

Frankly , my kids LIKE Primary Care, which isn't the 7th Circle of Hell pre-meds make it out to be.
Click to expand...

No one is saying that MDs can waltz into NS, but even applicants like the one in this thread are squarely behind the 8 ball. Notice the advice given to this poster by a current DO NS resident...

DO student wondering about MD NSG chances?

Yes people do it. No one is arguing they don’t, but to claim that “it’s hard for MDs too” is disengenious when the majority of NS programs will throw DO apps right in the trash regardless of how good they are.
 
Someone from my school last year matched ACGME neurosurgery. His credentials were legit with board scores and research. So DOs can do it, but it's easier for US MDs. No matter what school you go to you'll need great rank, scores, and research.

On a side note I remember him talking about interventional neurology if neurosurgery didnt work out. Maybe something you can look into.
 
Goro said:
3. I never said it was easy. And It's not easy for M.D. either. Just because you have the M.D. doesn't mean you can waltz into an iber-residency. SDNers need to lose that conceit.

Frankly , my kids LIKE Primary Care, which isn't the 7th Circle of Hell pre-meds make it out to be.
Click to expand...

There's so much paperwork in primary care
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
No one is saying that MDs can waltz into NS, but even applicants like the one in this thread are squarely behind the 8 ball. Notice the advice given to this poster by a current DO NS resident...

DO student wondering about MD NSG chances?

Yes people do it. No one is arguing they don’t, but to claim that “it’s hard for MDs too” is disengenious when the majority of NS programs will throw DO apps right in the trash regardless of how good they are.
Click to expand...
*sigh* That's not the point. The point is: really difficult =/= impossible.

If DO applicants don't do their research and don't know what they're getting into, that is on them.

And we get it it, grey, life is rainbows and unicorns if you have the M.D. Just knock off the "you're ****ed if you're a DO"
memes. It does get tiresome.
 
Goro said:
And we get it it, grey, life is rainbows and unicorns if you have the M.D.
Click to expand...

Nice strawman Goro, I expect better from you. You’re resorting to pretend arguments because you have no real argument that counter my fact based statements. It’s also tiresome to repeatedly see you post the company line, “well it’s hard for MDs too” with regards to fields like NS where you can be perfect, apply to every program in this country and not even get 5 interviews.

Goro said:
Just knock off the "you're ****ed if you're a DO"
memes. It does get tiresome.
Click to expand...
This is a thread asking about neurosurgery. So sorry but in the world of neurosurgery DO’s, to use your terms, are ****ed. Troll or not someone is going to come along and read this thread wanting to go to a DO school and be a neurosurgeon and if they read statements like, “well it’s not impossible, “you can do it if you work hard” they can easily get a false picture of reality. You want to be a neurosurgeon? Do anything you have to in order to go to an MD school. The amount of effort needed to fix a bad MCAT or do an SMP is minuscule to the amount of effort it will take to be one of the handful of DO students out of 8k that gets to be a neurosurgeon.

Clearly you don’t read my posts very much or you would realize that I am very optimistic about the future for DO’s.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Nice strawman Goro, I expect better from you. You’re resorting to pretend arguments because you have no real argument that counter my fact based statements. It’s also tiresome to repeatedly see you post the company line, “well it’s hard for MDs too” with regards to fields like NS where you can be perfect, apply to every program in this country and not even get 5 interviews.
.
Click to expand...
Gawd, like youth, sarcasm is wasted on the young.
 
I thought that the federal funds that went to AOA positions that are closing was just being reallocated to AOA programs who made the merger so they could take more students. So really the spots aren’t being “lost”.
 
Dr.Bruh said:
I thought that the federal funds that went to AOA positions that are closing was just being reallocated to AOA programs who made the merger so they could take more students. So really the spots aren’t being “lost”.
Click to expand...

You can't take more residents than you have the resources train.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
You can't take more residents than you have the resources train.
Click to expand...
Right but wouldn’t the money go to the programs so they can have more resources to train them? I’m just echoing what an ACGME rep told us who was involved in the process. Not sure on details
 
Dr.Bruh said:
Right but wouldn’t the money go to the programs so they can have more resources to train them? I’m just echoing what an ACGME rep told us who was involved in the process. Not sure on details
Click to expand...

No. By resources I mean patients, pathology, etc. There are minimum requirements that you have to meet as a resident to be eligible for board certification. You can't just be adding resident spots as it can screw up the system and residents may not hit certain numbers on some of their requirements. The money isn't tied to a specific field or program, it can easily be transferred to fund a different residency spot in another field entirely.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Nice strawman Goro, I expect better from you. You’re resorting to pretend arguments because you have no real argument that counter my fact based statements. It’s also tiresome to repeatedly see you post the company line, “well it’s hard for MDs too” with regards to fields like NS where you can be perfect, apply to every program in this country and not even get 5 interviews.


This is a thread asking about neurosurgery. So sorry but in the world of neurosurgery DO’s, to use your terms, are ****ed. Troll or not someone is going to come along and read this thread wanting to go to a DO school and be a neurosurgeon and if they read statements like, “well it’s not impossible, “you can do it if you work hard” they can easily get a false picture of reality. You want to be a neurosurgeon? Do anything you have to in order to go to an MD school. The amount of effort needed to fix a bad MCAT or do an SMP is minuscule to the amount of effort it will take to be one of the handful of DO students out of 8k that gets to be a neurosurgeon.

Clearly you don’t read my posts very much or you would realize that I am very optimistic about the future for DO’s.
Click to expand...
Does anyone really know that they wanna be a surgeon in UGrad though? I think that's part of it.
 
I know a D.O that went to LECOM and matched neurosurgery in California so yeah
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Nice strawman Goro, I expect better from you. You’re resorting to pretend arguments because you have no real argument that counter my fact based statements. It’s also tiresome to repeatedly see you post the company line, “well it’s hard for MDs too” with regards to fields like NS where you can be perfect, apply to every program in this country and not even get 5 interviews.


This is a thread asking about neurosurgery. So sorry but in the world of neurosurgery DO’s, to use your terms, are ****ed. Troll or not someone is going to come along and read this thread wanting to go to a DO school and be a neurosurgeon and if they read statements like, “well it’s not impossible, “you can do it if you work hard” they can easily get a false picture of reality. You want to be a neurosurgeon? Do anything you have to in order to go to an MD school. The amount of effort needed to fix a bad MCAT or do an SMP is minuscule to the amount of effort it will take to be one of the handful of DO students out of 8k that gets to be a neurosurgeon.

Clearly you don’t read my posts very much or you would realize that I am very optimistic about the future for DO’s.
Click to expand...

Oof. Can't my all of my favorite sdn personalities get along for once? [emoji24]

I predicted a headache 10 pages in and here we are on page 3.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
Goro said:
3. I never said it was easy. And It's not easy for M.D. either. Just because you have the M.D. doesn't mean you can waltz into an iber-residency. SDNers need to lose that conceit.

Frankly , my kids LIKE Primary Care, which isn't the 7th Circle of Hell pre-meds make it out to be.
Click to expand...

But no one is saying that just because you have an MD it is guaranteed. It's simply a statistical fact of the world we live in - DOs have an extremely difficult time getting into ultra competitive specialties. MDs just do not face the same challenges in the ACGME world. The line "it's not easy for MDs either" is just not even relevant.
 
sab3156 said:
But no one is saying that just because you have an MD it is guaranteed. It's simply a statistical fact of the world we live in - DOs have an extremely difficult time getting into ultra competitive specialties. MDs just do not face the same challenges in the ACGME world. The line "it's not easy for MDs either" is just not even relevant.
Click to expand...
We already know the bold, ad nauseum.

The red IS relevant because you MD-wannabes seem to think that just because more doors are open, that you think that you can simply sail right through them.
 
I understand that @sab315 is frustrated with GME for DOs. But he takes it way too far. Like telling someone who got a 501 on their MCAT to try harder and go MD. I totally understand how that test ruins people, and I'm thankful I have been able to walk away with a 95th percentile both times.

Be thankful that you are going to be a physician imo.
 
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