Can you become an MD and still have free time to enjoy life?

[Rhapsody]

The question sounds a bit absurd, I know. But is it possible to get your MD, and then work 40-45 hour weeks? Have lots of control over your work schedule, and go home and not be called back into work? This is the only thing deterring me from going to med school. I do a LOT that I love outside of school/work, and If I won't have to time to pursue those, and spend time with my family, I won't hesitate in pursuing something else.

So, is it at all possible to work a 40-45 hour week, in any field as an MD? Whether that's general practice or something else -- is it possible?

I really just want a Yes/No. That would make my life easier hahah

I absolutely freaking love medicine though, and think the human body is friggin incredible.

---

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[fizzle]

The question sounds a bit absurd, I know. But is it possible to get your MD, and then work 40-45 hour weeks? Have lots of control over your work schedule, and go home and not be called back into work? This is the only thing deterring me from going to med school. I do a LOT that I love outside of school/work, and If I won't have to time to pursue those, and spend time with my family, I won't hesitate in pursuing something else.

So, is it at all possible to work a 40-45 hour week, in any field as an MD? Whether that's general practice or something else -- is it possible?

I really just want a Yes/No. That would make my life easier hahah

Yes.

/thread

 

[shindotp]

The question sounds a bit absurd, I know. But is it possible to get your MD, and then work 40-45 hour weeks? Have lots of control over your work schedule, and go home and not be called back into work? This is the only thing deterring me from going to med school. I do a LOT that I love outside of school/work, and If I won't have to time to pursue those, and spend time with my family, I won't hesitate in pursuing something else.

So, is it at all possible to work a 40-45 hour week, in any field as an MD? Whether that's general practice or something else -- is it possible?

I really just want a Yes/No. That would make my life easier hahah

I absolutely freaking love medicine though, and think the human body is friggin incredible.

Get really good, start your own practice, and work whenever you want!

 

[TheMagicCookie]

ROAD...Rad, Optho, Anesthesia, Derm

 

[Hurricane95]

Yes.
It's called private practice anesthesiology. A few others can be pretty cush too. Derm, ophtho, emergency (although you often have weird overnight shifts), radiology, etc.


But in reality, when you are training in residency NO specialty will have the lifestyle you describe. It's just not possible. But you have a lot more flexibility when you are out on your own and finished with everything.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Havn't you seen Grey's??? FFSF!

I don't even think they practice medicine, they just sleep with residents!

 

[DrJosephKim]

There are so many ways of having more time once you get an MD. The real question is: what is your passion? What type of physician do you want to become?

 

[NotAndrew]

Hours in a week: 168
Hours of sleep in a week: 40
Hours of work in a week: 80
Hours left for you to do whatever with in a week: 48

This is during residency.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Hours in a week: 168
Hours of sleep in a week: 40
Hours of work in a week: 80
Hours left for you to do whatever with in a week: 48

This is during residency.

Yeah, cause everyone is really following that 80 hour work week during residency

And 5 and a half hours of sleep a night averaged is a pretty extreme schedule to maintain for 3+ years (I would argue close to impossible for most)

 

[facetedforms]

I met a critical care fellow this summer that said, if she could do it all over again, she wouldn't. It broke my heart to hear that. She went in for the wrong reasons (and too early, getting an MBBS in the UK starting at age 16 or 18). Also, if you want a life, don't do ICU/critical care, at least until shift work becomes the norm. ROADs if you want to live like a rapper.

 

[NotAndrew]

Yeah, cause everyone is really following that 80 hour work week during residency

And 5 and a half hours of sleep a night averaged is a pretty extreme schedule to maintain for 3+ years (I would argue close to impossible for most)

Wow I completely ****ed up the math on that.

It should read like this

Hours in a week: 168
Hours of sleep in a week: 56
Hours of work in a week: 80
Hours left for you to do whatever with in a week: 32

 

[202781]

Most of the medical students I know have at least enough time to find a GF or BF while they are in medical school. Shoot, my friend goes to USC and he is spending this week in Hawaii with his girlfriend that he met at medical school (two weeks before that he went to Las Vegas for an overnight trip with his friends from medical school).

I really think that life is what you make it. If you feel the urge to ALWAYS push yourself to the breaking point then I think you will be spending lots of time working and very little time living life.

Lots of the doctors I know have time to spend with their kids and coach little league or whatever. Often times I think working long hours 5 or 6 days a week will allow you to appreciate the 1-2 days every week that you have off and will really make you want to spend time with your significant other and children.

I really feel that the people who have no life and are unhappy are those people who feel they need to make tons of $$$ because they think that is what a doctor should do and they want to impress their friends. My ex-Girlfriend (the ****) had a father and mother that were exactly that way. He bought a $100k Benz strictly to drive to work (they have other cars for going anywhere else). He bought it because that is what he thought a doctor should drive. Her mother constantly went shopping to keep up with her rich neighbors and friends. Her parents would constantly tell her how dissappointing it would be for them if their children did not become doctors. Her father even said (and I quote) "I will have a heart attack if my friends find out that my children are not successful"

Unfortunately I think this is all to prevalent and so kids get pushed into medicine because they don't want to dissappoint their parents. After they become a doctor then it is all about flaunting your $$$ to show that you are more successful then others.

The average income for a FAMILY in the USA is about $48,000. If you are a doctor then you BY YOURSELF will likely bring in 3-6x that amount (not including what your spouse makes if he/she works)

An MD will make a lot of money almost regardless of speciality or location... some are obsessed with work though and choose to work the week at one hospital and then work at a different hospital on the weekends to increase their income.

 

[202781]

This thread makes me really depressed for some reason.

I have always told myself that if I am truly unhappy with practicing medicine that I would get out after my loans are paid off. I am sure someone with an MD could get a job with normal hours and still make $80,000/year (and possibly actually make more than an MD if he works for a drug company).

I am fairly certain that I will be happy with my choice because it took me so long to weigh the pros/cons of working in medicine, I did a lot of reaserch before I decided to dedicate the next 8+ years of my life toward medical education/residency. I think because of this I have an advantage over those people who told themselves in HS or earlier that they were going to be a doctor and just "stuck to the plan" or those other people who were forced into it by their parents.

 

[DrYoda]

And 5 and a half hours of sleep a night averaged is a pretty extreme schedule to maintain for 3+ years (I would argue close to impossible for most)

I average ~five, been doing it for the better part of a decade. Could it be I am _>.

?


OP: Yes, there are docors with all kinds of scheduels. Although most do work well above standard 40 hr work week.

 

[Anotherface]

Yes

 

[Perrotfish]

1st and 2nd year of medical school: Probably yes but might hurt your board scores down the line unless you're really efficient at studying

3rd year: no on most rotations

4th year: definitely yes

Intern year: No

Resdency: probably no, but a few specialties get quite light towards the end.

After residency: yes in some specialties, no in other.

 

[Rhapsody]

Yeah I meant to indicate after all the 'trial period' the 4 years and the residency. I expect to bust my ass during that time to learn everything possible.

But after that, once I'm already an old man ready to start my damn life haha. Once I hit my early 30s and am ready to find a place to live, get a regular practice, etc.

So I guess the bottom line is: Yes it's really possible, and it depends which field / specialization you go into?

 

[Law2Doc]

ROAD...Rad, Optho, Anesthesia, Derm

All of the ROAD specialties average over the 45 hours/week the OP indicates. Several of them average 60 hours/week. This is considered lifestyle compared to the 100 surgeons work, but is not lifestyle compared to a 9-5 job you might get outside of a professional path.

Here's the short answer. The average non-surgical path is going to average about 55-60 hours/week of work once you get past residency. Realistically, these are the hours of the position you are training for when you enter med school. You may not like it, but this is going to be the expectation of the field and what you are basically signing on for. Residency will tend to average more like 70-80 hours per week. (Bear in mind that the 80 hour work week is a running average; you will have week's where you will work over 100 hours, and weeks where your schedule is more reasonable, and that still fits within the rules as they are currently written). You will be expected to work that kind of crazy hours in your residency, as well as much of your third year of med school and your sub-Is in 4th year. No way around that if you want to practice.

There are part time options in medicine, and there are fields where you can set up your own shop and work as hard (or not) as you want (esp psych). But often the lesser hours come with a price in terms of salary/career progression, and because expenses are higher for two part-time employees as compared to one full time employee, these positions are often scarcer and competitive to get, even with their limitations.

Med school and medicine is all about balance. You can't do everything you will want to do on top of med school/medicine. You probably can do some of what you want to do on top of it. So yes, you will miss your cousin's wedding in Detroit, and won't necessarily be able to do that annual Las Vegas weekend with your college buds. But you will be able to squeeze out an hour or two to work out now and then, maybe some time to unwind in front of the TV, or spend with family, dates, etc. If it's important to you you can squeeze it in, but you have a finite amount of time, and work/sleep are going to be pretty fixed, so everything else has to be shoe-horned in. It can be done, but it's always going to be a juggling act. You can't have it all. But you can have some. If that's not enough then this may be a very difficult path for you. Because it doesn't change because you want it to.

 

[Law2Doc]

Yeah I meant to indicate after all the 'trial period' the 4 years and the residency. I expect to bust my ass during that time to learn everything possible.

But after that, once I'm already an old man ready to start my damn life haha. Once I hit my early 30s and am ready to find a place to live, get a regular practice, etc.

So I guess the bottom line is: Yes it's really possible, and it depends which field / specialization you go into?

bear in mind that though you feel you are an old man at that point, you are going to be the new, young, blood in any practice you enter, and so you will be viewed as the work-horse. So expect to work a ton the first couple of (or more) years out of residency, because any place bringing you in is hoping to earn a lot off your labors, and will work you hard accordingly. In lots of fields (especially surgical), people actually see their hours increase after residency, once the 80 hour work week restriction is removed, and the incentive to earn more, impress their bosses, etc is added to the mix.

 

[UVAbme2009]

It all boils down to how you not only plan your work schedule on a daily/weekly/monthly/yearly basis, but on a career basis also.

The MD I work under has two kids that are now graduating college. He's still married. Once his kids went off to college, he really amped up his work load. Not that he didn't work hard and long hours before, but now he's a machine. He runs an extremely successful lab and is now Chief of Nephrology here. And even now, with a much busier schedule, he still finds time to run marathons.

 

[Chuck's Right Foot]

True Story:

I was mountain biking Dec 31st (a few years ago) enjoying unseasonably warm weather. I was off of classes and excited for New Year's Eve. Sadly, my ankle decided to shatter while I was pedaling. Random Freak Accident.


I fall down, scream in pain. I look at how beautiful the leaves are. My vision goes blurry and I start shivering. Oooh Shock! Yay!

I lay down for two or three minutes and a new mountain biker rolls by and says:

"You Ok?"

Looking down at my foot turned 90 degrees to far, I say no.

"Can I take a look? I'm a Trauma Surgeon at Shock Trauma in Baltimore"

So, while doctors do have free time, people like me always bring em back to work. He ended up putting my ankle back together... And I think in enough time to get out to his NYE plans.

 

[beergoggles]

If you go into a field of medicine that you love, the only "work" you'll have to do is filling out papers (which takes a substantial amount of time, and it's only getting greater with increased bureaucracy). Otherwise, most of your day will be spent practicing your craft. Surgeons put in some of the longest hours because they what they do.

If you're a family guy, every minute you spend out of the hospital will be with your wife/husband and kids. It sounds like a good existence to me.

You need to ask yourself if you are going to medical school to be a doctor. If you aren't and instead are doing it as a means to some other end, then you're always going to be upset with time. If your passion is something else, maybe medicine isn't your best choice for a career. You may be good and successful at it, but if you're not happy, do otherwise.

 

[neurolddoc]

I really just want a Yes/No. That would make my life easier hahah

I absolutely freaking love medicine though, and think the human body is friggin incredible.

No. If that is best answer you can give the admission committee you should consider something else.

 

[Kaustikos]

I average ~five, been doing it for the better part of a decade. Could it be I am _>.

?


OP: Yes, there are docors with all kinds of scheduels. Although most do work well above standard 40 hr work week.

It's all conditioning. It's difficult, but definitely doable.

 

[Kaustikos]

No. If that is best answer you can give the admission committee you should consider something else.

Maybe I have seen the outliers? But I know of at least 10 practicing physicians who work 9-5 (if that) and spend afternoons playing world of warcraft and Yu-Gi-Oh. And they're not ROAD, either.

 

[Law2Doc]

Maybe I have seen the outliers? But I know of at least 10 practicing physicians who work 9-5 (if that) and spend afternoons playing world of warcraft and Yu-Gi-Oh. And they're not ROAD, either.

If they are not outliers, they are either not newly minted doctors (things were different if you got into the field back when), or they have made huge sacrifices in career and salary. The average today is about 60 hours/week. Many people exceed the average. Far fewer come in substantially below, particularly when you nix the competitive lifestyle specialties from the analysis.

We all know exceptions to the rule. But that doesn't make it smart to go into a field hoping to be an exception. This is one of those topics where premeds have a notion of how they want things to be, and it clouds their perception of how it really is. You will work hard in medicine. You have to. It's the nature of the beast. I know everybody would love a lifestyle friendly schedule that pays out oodles of money and lets you have your cake and eat it too. But wanting something and having it happen are two very different things. I think you will find that the field and future employers are going to be less generous to your schedule desires than you'd like.

 

[Kaustikos]

If they are not outliers, they are either not newly minted doctors (things were different if you got into the field back when), or they have made huge sacrifices in career and salary. The average today is about 60 hours/week. Many people exceed the average. Far fewer come in substantially below, particularly when you nix the competitive lifestyle specialties from the analysis.

We all know exceptions to the rule. But that doesn't make it smart to go into a field hoping to be an exception. This is one of those topics where premeds have a notion of how they want things to be, and it clouds their perception of how it really is. You will work hard in medicine. You have to. It's the nature of the beast. I know everybody would love a lifestyle friendly schedule that pays out oodles of money and lets you have your cake and eat it too. But wanting something and having it happen are two very different things. I think you will find that the field and future employers are going to be less generous to your schedule desires than you'd like.

I agree completely. I was under the assumption that these guys were either outliers, didn't care or simply found a loop-hole in the system . I know what medicine entails and how much hard work it is. Sorry, I believe I know. I suppose my statement was added to clarify how these physicians are still practicing with this... great lack of motivation/devotion to medicine.

 

[AugustWinterMan]

Acute Care Physicians (ED) seem to have a pretty nice lifestyle based on my experiences with a number of them. Two of the people I know work around 35-40 hours not including meetings and time to do paperwork.

It is definitely not a field to go into because you want to make a bajilion dollars. Mostly because bajillion is a made-up number. But, of the ones I have talked to, they seem to be satisfied with their lifestyle.

 

[link517]

The question sounds a bit absurd, I know. But is it possible to get your MD, and then work 40-45 hour weeks? Have lots of control over your work schedule, and go home and not be called back into work? This is the only thing deterring me from going to med school. I do a LOT that I love outside of school/work, and If I won't have to time to pursue those, and spend time with my family, I won't hesitate in pursuing something else.

So, is it at all possible to work a 40-45 hour week, in any field as an MD? Whether that's general practice or something else -- is it possible?

I really just want a Yes/No. That would make my life easier hahah

I absolutely freaking love medicine though, and think the human body is friggin incredible.

No

 

[htownpremie]

a physician i shadowed a couple times only worked three days a week (from 7:30AM-6PM) in a practice with about 3-4 other pediatricians. i think she saw between 30-40 patients a day (sometimes even more), and even though about 70% of her money went to overhead, she was still netting well over 200k a year pre-tax. not too shabby in my opinion...

 

[diosa428]

Honestly, if you are already concerned about your hours, you might want to seriously, SERIOUSLY consider what other jobs might be for you. Not because you can't work 9-5 in medicine (because you can), but because you might end up spending 10 miserable years in school and then residency and then fellowship to find out it's *not* that cool, and you just spent 10 years working your a** off, and now you *still* don't have the hours you want.

The most bobble-headed optimistic premeds pick medicine. And, at some point, whether it's 3rd year of med school, internship, years of residency, or the first time they get sued as an attending, the majority will have that optimism beaten out of them. Go check out the residency forums and you will find that a lot of people are already at the point where they just want to quit, but they can't b/c they have so much debt.

I'm not trying to be a pessimist, but I am trying to be a realist. I'd say that if you can think of even one job that you would be as happy in as medicine, go that route. Consider PA school - they work 9-5, and they don't even always have to work 5 days a week...

 

[NDPitch]

To the OP - ever considered dental school? You're still a doctor and deal with the human body, but usually work "more friendly" hours. You're still paid well, and generally speaking, the lawyers haven't attacked the dental industry as much - YET.

 

[shindotp]

Wow I completely ****ed up the math on that.

It should read like this

Hours in a week: 168
Hours of sleep in a week: 56
Hours of work in a week: 80
Hours left for you to do whatever with in a week: 32

Hours of traveling to and from the hospital: 3
Hours spent in the bathroom: 5
Hours spent eating: 10

And you're left with 2 hours a day for everything else you have to do, greaaat.

 

[Slade]

One of the physicians who interviewed me for the University of Hawaii is a hospitalist in internal medicine. She said that the hospital had recently (in the last 5 years) adopted a voluntary system where physicians could work 12 hours every day for a week every other week. So, she basically works 84 hours a week but only every other week. This allows her plenty of time to do significant things outside of work. The physicians are allowed to group weeks together if they wish to take off several weeks in a row. She said a study showed that this system actually was better at preventing burnouts.

cons: This physician has children and can only work these shifts because her husband works from home and is thus able to take care of the kids during the "work" weeks.

In any case, hospital-based physicians are probably more likely to have better work hours because they can take shifts, whereas physicians in private practice, at least in the beginning, have to be on call every x nights.

All in all, it seems as though this is a good system, and it is likely not exclusive to this one hospital.

 

[Evergrey]

Wow I completely ****ed up the math on that.

It should read like this

Hours in a week: 168
Hours of sleep in a week: 56
Hours of work in a week: 80
Hours left for you to do whatever with in a week: 32

Let's amend this:

Hours in a week: 168
Hours of sleep in a week: 56
Hours of work in a week: 80
Hours spent on the can or in the shower (20 mins a day): 2
Hours spent eating or preparing food (1.5 hours a day): 11
Hours spent commuting or traveling (let's be generous and say only 40 minutes a day total): 5

Leftover: 14 hours total, or in other words 2 hours a day to spend doing things that aren't either menial or work-related. Better master paying your bills quickly so that you can catch the latest episode of Grey's!

Edit: Oops should have finished reading the thread, sorry Shindotp.

 

[Law2Doc]

a physician i shadowed a couple times only worked three days a week (from 7:30AM-6PM) in a practice with about 3-4 other pediatricians. i think she saw between 30-40 patients a day (sometimes even more), and even though about 70% of her money went to overhead, she was still netting well over 200k a year pre-tax. not too shabby in my opinion...

Not too shabby at all considering the average for FULL TIME pediatricians is lower than this. So don't expect to get anything close to this kind of deal. It is an outlier. More often you are going to meet pediatricians who work a 50-60 hour work week for around $150k, and those who work 40% less get a corresponding cut in salary. So if you effectively work part time, you are unlikely to break six digits. Peds is not one of the higher paying fields so to the extent you see salaries above the average, your warning bells should be going off -- that this is not the norm or something to expect. IMHO, the example you cite is a good example of why anecdotal evidence is very dangerous in the hands of premeds. This is not the deal you are likely to get.

There is no have your cake and eat it too in medicine. You either get more cake than you want and no time to eat it, or lots of time to eat but not nearly enough cake. That's medicine.

 

[surftheiop]

I think people dont really consider the fact that if your the type of person who is talented enough/ has the work ethic to become a doctor your probaly the type of person who would work pretty long hours whatever career you ended up choosing. Because this type of person isn't satisified with doing an "ok" job.

If you tell someone not to be a doctor because of the hours then what sort of careers might they go into?

They could become and lawyer and work like 100 hours a week for the first 4 years out of law school.

They could become an investment banker and work like 100 hours a week.

They could be an engineer and work their way up the corporate ladder by working extra weekends and travelling to bussiness meetings.

The type of people who are capable of becoming a doctor are also the type of people who are probaly going to be fighting to get to the top of their law firm, bank, brokerage, oil company etc. if they werent doing medicine.

 

[shindotp]

Let's amend this:

Hours in a week: 168
Hours of sleep in a week: 56
Hours of work in a week: 80
Hours spent on the can or in the shower (20 mins a day): 2
Hours spent eating or preparing food (1.5 hours a day): 11
Hours spent commuting or traveling (let's be generous and say only 40 minutes a day total): 5

Leftover: 14 hours total, or in other words 2 hours a day to spend doing things that aren't either menial or work-related. Better master paying your bills quickly so that you can catch the latest episode of Grey's!

Edit: Oops should have finished reading the thread, sorry Shindotp.

It's actually pretty amazing that we both ended up with the same # of hours per day.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Honestly just as a general question ... does anyone in the real world who has a career, aka not a job where you shuffle off to an office every day, zone out/do the bare minimum and leave, and is really trying to do well and move upward work 9-5?? My dad is in sales, something most people would probably consider a 9-5 job, but he's worked his tail off to move up/stay important in the industry and he's gone by 7 every morning and back by 6 or 7 at night. Working long hours isn't specific to being a physician. I also have a grandfather who is a retired teacher -> principle and I can tell you his day was NEVER 9-5 in either position. Given that these people didn't have to go through a residency (which is probably just going to blow, no way around it), but I really think that putting in the hours comes with being successful. The grass is always greener ...

 

[WannaBePreMed]

Honestly just as a general question ... does anyone in the real world who has a career, aka not a job where you shuffle off to an office every day, zone out/do the bare minimum and leave, and is really trying to do well and move upward work 9-5?? My dad is in sales, something most people would probably consider a 9-5 job, but he's worked his tail off to move up/stay important in the industry and he's gone by 7 every morning and back by 6 or 7 at night. Working long hours isn't specific to being a physician. I also have a grandfather who is a retired teacher -> principle and I can tell you his day was NEVER 9-5 in either position. Given that these people didn't have to go through a residency (which is probably just going to blow, no way around it), but I really think that putting in the hours comes with being successful. The grass is always greener ...

JaggerPlate you've manage to opened up my mind, I appreciate your post. The grass is always greener.

 

[Kaustikos]

Honestly just as a general question ... does anyone in the real world who has a career, aka not a job where you shuffle off to an office every day, zone out/do the bare minimum and leave, and is really trying to do well and move upward work 9-5?? My dad is in sales, something most people would probably consider a 9-5 job, but he's worked his tail off to move up/stay important in the industry and he's gone by 7 every morning and back by 6 or 7 at night. Working long hours isn't specific to being a physician. I also have a grandfather who is a retired teacher -> principle and I can tell you his day was NEVER 9-5 in either position. Given that these people didn't have to go through a residency (which is probably just going to blow, no way around it), but I really think that putting in the hours comes with being successful. The grass is always greener ...

It's definitely true and I've seen it elsewhere. Hell, you want to look at one that's growing? Look at videogame developers. They work over 80 hrs/wk to develop games for pay that no pre-med would ever be satisfied with and with NO job security (Look at the amount of companies going bankrupt/laying people off - Midway, Atari, etc). There's also pharmaceuticals, academics, nursing. People need to get over this 9-5 workstyle like the 1950s are still a reality and you can come home with your wife handing you the slippers and pipe (Or husband handing you...whatever it is women would want a husband to hand them after coming home from work) at 5:30/6:00 and read the paper by the fireplace.



Also, 9-5 is overrated. Give me 10-7 or 2 - 10.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think people dont really consider the fact that if your the type of person who is talented enough/ has the work ethic to become a doctor your probaly the type of person who would work pretty long hours whatever career you ended up choosing. Because this type of person isn't satisified with doing an "ok" job.

If you tell someone not to be a doctor because of the hours then what sort of careers might they go into?

They could become and lawyer and work like 100 hours a week for the first 4 years out of law school.

They could become an investment banker and work like 100 hours a week.

They could be an engineer and work their way up the corporate ladder by working extra weekends and travelling to bussiness meetings.

The type of people who are capable of becoming a doctor are also the type of people who are probaly going to be fighting to get to the top of their law firm, bank, brokerage, oil company etc. if they werent doing medicine.

In terms of your lawyer example, bear in mind that law school is a year shorter and there is no residency, so you will likely be through this 4 years before you would be through with residency. So to the point you are comparing post residency jobs, you have to look 4+ years out to compare apples and apples. Not that I'm saying law is the best comparison, but there a LOT more lawyers 4+ years out of law school working under 60 hours/week than doctors. (This is likely true for the other paths you listed as well). And there are nearly an infinite number of jobs out there. Only on SDN are the only choices doctor, lawyer, I banker and engineer. I submit that if you explored more things in college, you wouldn't be so limited in your consideration. But I would suggest that if hours are at the top of your list of things that are important to you in your career, then yes, medicine is a singularly bad choice, probably the worst hours of the professional fields.

 

[Law2Doc]

Honestly just as a general question ... does anyone in the real world who has a career, aka not a job where you shuffle off to an office every day, zone out/do the bare minimum and leave, and is really trying to do well and move upward work 9-5?? My dad is in sales, something most people would probably consider a 9-5 job, but he's worked his tail off to move up/stay important in the industry and he's gone by 7 every morning and back by 6 or 7 at night. Working long hours isn't specific to being a physician. I also have a grandfather who is a retired teacher -> principle and I can tell you his day was NEVER 9-5 in either position. Given that these people didn't have to go through a residency (which is probably just going to blow, no way around it), but I really think that putting in the hours comes with being successful. The grass is always greener ...

Saying the grass is always greener is IMHO the biggest cop out, because it allows you not to consider other options by just saying "they all are going to suck equally". It isn't really true. But I would agree that the couple of professions talked about on SDN (law, I banking) do have longer than 9-5 hours. To be successful you probably have to work hard in such jobs. But there are many many many more jobs out there than the 3-4 that get mentioned on SDN. And if hours is toward the top of your career decision list then a lot of jobs are going to be better suited. There are a lot of 9-5 jobs out there. Most aren't in these couple of professions, most aren't as well compensated. But it depends on your priorities. If you want better hours as your most important priority, then maybe a profession isn't the right path. If certain other things are more important, then you sacrifice the hours, in which case maybe medicine comes back into consideration. You have to pick a career based on what's important to you, not pick a career and grasp at straws on SDN if it's possible to also get what's important to you in that path you already chose.

All careers are not the same. Nor are all careers going to be good for everyone. Saying they all suck, the grass is always greener, etc is a cop out because it allows you not to look any harder in the analysis, and probably prevents scores of people from ever actually finding a path that would be better for them. Just my 2 cents. But from one who came from another path where I worked with and for people who were able to obtain careers that allowed them to match their priorities. And medicine was not one of them.

 

[surftheiop]

In terms of your lawyer example, bear in mind that law school is a year shorter and there is no residency, so you will likely be through this 4 years before you would be through with residency. So to the point you are comparing post residency jobs, you have to look 4+ years out to compare apples and apples. Not that I'm saying law is the best comparison, but there a LOT more lawyers 4+ years out of law school working under 60 hours/week than doctors. (This is likely true for the other paths you listed as well). And there are nearly an infinite number of jobs out there. Only on SDN are the only choices doctor, lawyer, I banker and engineer. I submit that if you explored more things in college, you wouldn't be so limited in your consideration. But I would suggest that if hours are at the top of your list of things that are important to you in your career, then yes, medicine is a singularly bad choice, probably the worst hours of the professional fields.

I was just pointing out if someone is motivated enough to be a doctor they probaly areant going to be working the "average" hours of any profession, they are likey to be the people who are working above average hours in whatever profession they choose in order to "get on top".

As for my example careers, I just choose careers that people knew about and have alot of upward mobility based on how hard you work.
I could have used my mom's job as an example, she is the county adult education director and works way more than 9-5, but nobody would have known what that means.

I might be slightly narrow minded in my career considerations, but I will have a very marketable undergraduate degree (chemical engineering) so if I decide medicine isnt for me I will have another career waiting for me which is more than alot of pre-meds can say.

 

[Law2Doc]

... if I decide medicine isnt for me I will have another career waiting for me which is more than alot of pre-meds can say.

Agree with this whole-heartedly. Premeds often box themselves in by doing the traditional premed majors without fully exploring other things. The number of jobs for a bio/biochem major aren't that expansive. You'd be better off taking the prereqs on top of a non-medicine focused major, and spend the 4 years in college exploring other things. Then you wouldn't get into the binds this thread suggests, where you are premed but don't like the hours inherent in medicine. You have to pick a career that meets most of your requirements, in the order they are important to you. If lifestyle hours are truly at the top of your list, some jobs, frankly, aren't the wisest course.

 

[htownpremie]

Not too shabby at all considering the average for FULL TIME pediatricians is lower than this. So don't expect to get anything close to this kind of deal. It is an outlier. More often you are going to meet pediatricians who work a 50-60 hour work week for around $150k, and those who work 40% less get a corresponding cut in salary. So if you effectively work part time, you are unlikely to break six digits. Peds is not one of the higher paying fields so to the extent you see salaries above the average, your warning bells should be going off -- that this is not the norm or something to expect. IMHO, the example you cite is a good example of why anecdotal evidence is very dangerous in the hands of premeds. This is not the deal you are likely to get.

There is no have your cake and eat it too in medicine. You either get more cake than you want and no time to eat it, or lots of time to eat but not nearly enough cake. That's medicine.

l2d, doesn't it also matter what setting you're working in, and don't a lot of other factors come into play? private clinic, academia, hospital, private practice, location, how long you've been practicing. the doctor i shadowed had a private practice that she shared with 4 other doctors and a PA. they shared being on call, maybe that reduced her working hours. she also had patients scheduled every 10-15 minutes for the entire time that she was at work, and i think the number of patients she saw per week was still about the norm for a pediatrician. is the $150k that you cite pre-tax or post tax? would she be an outlier if she'd been practicing for over 20 years?

i'm not really looking to be a pediatrician, and i'm not really interested in being in a similar clinical setting to this. i wasn't trying to generalize the case of this pediatrician to every other pediatrician out there.

yah i'm anecdotally armed and dangerous...

 

[Law2Doc]

l2d, doesn't it also matter what setting you're working in, and don't a lot of other factors come into play? private clinic, academia, hospital, private practice, location, how long you've been practicing. the doctor i shadowed had a private practice that she shared with 4 other doctors and a PA. they shared being on call, maybe that reduced her working hours. she also had patients scheduled every 10-15 minutes for the entire time that she was at work, and i think the number of patients she saw per week was still about the norm for a pediatrician. is the $150k that you cite pre-tax or post tax? would she be an outlier if she'd been practicing for over 20 years?

i'm not really looking to be a pediatrician, and i'm not really interested in being in a similar clinical setting to this. i wasn't trying to generalize the case of this pediatrician to every other pediatrician out there.

yah i'm anecdotally armed and dangerous...

Salary figures are always pre-tax. Nobody ever talks salaries net of tax because everybody's taxes will be different based on their rates, deductions etc.

But no it doesn't really matter the setting. Of course folks in private practice in some communities earn more and folks in academics probably earn less. And folks in the business longer probably earn a bit more. But average is average. And peds is one of the lower averages; the range in this field isn't as broad as you are suggesting. The number of patients you describe this person seeing is pretty common for a field such as peds, where throughput is necessary because of the way reimbursements work. (They don't have many procedures so they need to see more patients. So that's the norm).

So when someone earns $200k for a less than full time job (3 days a week), then they are doing well above average.

 

[htownpremie]

Salary figures are always pre-tax. Nobody ever talks salaries net of tax because everybody's taxes will be different based on their rates, deductions etc.

But no it doesn't really matter the setting. Of course folks in private practice in some communities earn more and folks in academics probably earn less. And folks in the business longer probably earn a bit more. But average is average. And peds is one of the lower averages; the range in this field isn't as broad as you are suggesting. The number of patients you describe this person seeing is pretty common for a field such as peds, where throughput is necessary because of the way reimbursements work. (They don't have many procedures so they need to see more patients. So that's the norm).

So when someone earns $200k for a less than full time job (3 days a week), then they are doing well above average.

http://www.bls.gov/

suggests an average range from 75k (DC) to the mid to high 180s in KY and OK. other websites, less reliable i'm assuming, put pediatricians at 135k to 271k. maybe neither of those are broad by your definition. :shrugs:

as you've said, even though this doc only works three days a week, she's still seeing the same number of patients as an average general pediatrician. i wouldn't necessarily say that she's working "part time" just because she's capable of squeezing a normal work week's worth of labor into three days. probably helps that she's got ties with the local med school and has students rotating through her clinic as well. thanks for the refresher on procedures and how they relate to pediatric business practices.

i don't want to get into the nitty gritty of distributions and ranges, just because i (and i think everyone else on here) see your point, which has been in line with the typical SDN response to questions about trends in physician compensation. not to say that typical is incorrect. note that i wasn't issuing a clarion to the field of pediatrics because of its lifestyle and compensation...

 

[Law2Doc]

...
as you've said, even though this doc only works three days a week, she's still seeing the same number of patients as an average general pediatrician. ...

We don't agree on this point. You say how many patients she sees like it's a record or something. But in fact most pediatricians these days see patients non-stop every day, in 15 minute intervals, and do it 5 days a week. And then they spend a good part of the evening calling in prescriptions and calling back parents. It's not a cushy gig. The way they get paid is via reimbursements, and since they don't have any fancy procedures, they get paid by throughput -- the more patients they see, the more they can earn. And reimbursements get cut periodically so they are often seeing more patients each year just to keep at the level they earned the prior year.

So no, she isn't seeing the same number of patients as an average general pediatrician. She is seeing 3/5 as many patients. Which should put her at 3/5 the average salary, or else she is making way way more than the norm. (which she is). That's my point. You are picking an outlier and using it as an example of the norm. Premeds do this all the time. Which is why so many premeds have warped views of what they are going to earn. Peds is one of the LOW paying fields. And if you only work 3 days a week you NORMALLY can expect to be at the lower end of this low paying field. This person is in another ballpark so you can pretty much ignore her results when extrapolating your own. That's all I'm saying.

(And I would probably ignore whatever jobsearch website you saw that's suggesting a pediatrician can make $275k. I'm sure it happens in select markets with very experienced practitioners, but this isn't a realistic target).

 

[htownpremie]

So no, she isn't seeing the same number of patients as an average general pediatrician. She is seeing 3/5 as many patients.

a somewhat dated survey (8 years old) from AAP puts the average number of weekly visits per office at around 100. in the present day has that really nearly doubled to 175-200 patient visits/week? if you've got something besides a "dangerous" anecdotal account, i'd like to read it because it'd be interesting.

You are picking an outlier and using it as an example of the norm. Premeds do this all the time. Which is why so many premeds have warped views of what they are going to earn.

as i stated...

i wasn't trying to generalize the case of this pediatrician to every other pediatrician out there.

i won't bother to append a generalizing statement about medical students and their penchant for thinking that they know everything to every response i write to you. i generally appreciate the comments that you post in these forums because they are quite interesting and thoughtful, but when you slather on the patronizing generalizations it's a little hard to swallow.