Can you really be an MD if you had poor grades in undergrad?

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ClrkKnt

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I am talking graduating college with GPAs that start with a 2 because I get the impression from reading some of the older threads on this forum that by some way it can be made up for by strong MCAT scores, doing well in masters levels classes, post bacc, and those things. Like one story I was reading was about some person who finished college with a 2.3 GPA, did an SMP where he did well, had some decent ECs, and made above a 30 on the MCAT and claims that he is in medical school.

No offense to this forum at all, it is a gold mine of amazing information, but I get the impression that sometimes it is being far too optimistic.
 
Can... It's just difficult. My brother in law did not do well his first few years in undergrad, but graduated top of his class in medical school. He's now an orthopedic spine surgeon.

If you have poor grades because you can't comprehend science material, things won't likely turn around. If you just had a rough start to undergrad, there's hope!
 
This site is actually overly pessimistic.

If you do really well in a Special Masters Program (SMP), then you can essentially "erase" your bad uGPA. Obviously it will also depend if the medical school accepts SMPs as a cover over your uGPA. I have no trouble believing that the person you described got into an MD school.
 
This site is actually overly pessimistic.

If you do really well in a Special Masters Program (SMP), then you can essentially "erase" your bad uGPA. Obviously it will also depend if the medical school accepts SMPs as a cover over your uGPA. I have no trouble believing that the person you described got into an MD school.

Good thing about pessimism is it motivates the rockstar applicants. Bad thing is it weeds out the poor applicants.
 
If anything this forum is pessimistic. Yes if you get a masters degree and a good mcat you can still go to med school even with a bad undergrad GPA.
Standard master's degree isn't the right way to do it, but yes it's definitely possible.
 
Yes, it can be done. There are schools that reward reinvention.

They tend to reward those who ace grad courses (post-bac or SMP AND MCAT...not a 30, but a 35+).

I am talking graduating college with GPAs that start with a 2 because I get the impression from reading some of the older threads on this forum that by some way it can be made up for by strong MCAT scores, doing well in masters levels classes, post bacc, and those things. Like one story I was reading was about some person who finished college with a 2.3 GPA, did an SMP where he did well, had some decent ECs, and made above a 30 on the MCAT and claims that he is in medical school.

No offense to this forum at all, it is a gold mine of amazing information, but I get the impression that sometimes it is being far too optimistic.
 
Yes, it can be done. There are schools that reward reinvention.

They tend to reward those who ace grad courses (post-bac or SMP AND MCAT...not a 30, but a 35+).

translation: Ya it is really is impossible bro
 
You may or may not have read these...

See Dr. Midlife's reply about 3 posts down: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/the-low-gpa-what-do-i-do-thread.827879/

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/below-3-0-gpa-support-group-thread.1015398/

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/who-has-overcome-a-low-undergrad-gpa.385345/

OP includes information about low GPA's and applying: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/drmidlifes-reapplication-dissertation.942893/

See Q's comments about GPA stressing graduate GPA and MCAT (2nd post down): http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/non-trad-secrets-of-application-success.321873/

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/what-were-your-stats.869024/

If considering a DO (separate forum area for that): http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/osteopathic-medicine.388561/

If considering Caribbean, make absolutely sure (or as sure as possible) that you will have a decent chance at getting into a U.S. residency. There's been some threads about that on SDN as well.

Not sure what Texas requires to become a state resident, but I've heard they are more lenient with GPAs in that state.

Good luck!
 
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Can we get a list going of schools that do reward reinvention? So far I have:

Tufts
BU
Drexel
Tulane
NYMC
Suny-Upstate
Albany
EVMS
RFU
VCU
Georgetown
USF


Thoughts on the list @Goro?
 
Can we get a list going of schools that do reward reinvention? So far I have:

Tufts
BU
Drexel
Tulane
NYMC
Suny-Upstate
Albany
EVMS
RFU
VCU
Georgetown
USF


Thoughts on the list @Goro?
Definitely not surprised at that list, besides Tufts. Although their tuition is ridiculous which is probably why.
 
I am talking graduating college with GPAs that start with a 2 because I get the impression from reading some of the older threads on this forum that by some way it can be made up for by strong MCAT scores, doing well in masters levels classes, post bacc, and those things. Like one story I was reading was about some person who finished college with a 2.3 GPA, did an SMP where he did well, had some decent ECs, and made above a 30 on the MCAT and claims that he is in medical school.
No offense to this forum at all, it is a gold mine of amazing information, but I get the impression that sometimes it is being far too optimistic.

what? sdn is the elitist "if you don't get a 35+ on the mcat you're doomed zone" where the only advice those who succeed have is "you should have done x, y and z" instead of focusing on what you currently can do to change things up in the present to get where you want go. This advice is totally damaging and most people from that perspective on this site are going to be the definition of horrific doctors and atrocious clinicians who tell people with a disease that they should have been born without it, instead of giving people advice to solve their problems. They're totally disconnected from reality, as well (check the 30+ mcat thread if you want examples. you'll have people who started with a 35+ on practice mcat FLs claiming that anyone can do it, when it reality they just started high and ended up with a higher score). Half the people on this site might as well tell you that the secret to getting a GPA is...good grades. Yes, it is but that's **** advice.

you can do anything OP, the first step is to enroll in a SMP that you can succeed in, find out what helps you do well in courses, and the next step is to leave this site, and not let it limit you in any form. Especially since a ton of the advice you'll get here is contradictory in every form.
 
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what? sdn is the elitist "if you don't get a 35+ on the mcat you're doomed zone" where the only advice those who succeed have is "you should have done x, y and z" instead of focusing on what you currently can do to change things up in the present to get where you want go. This advice is totally damaging and most people from that perspective on this site are going to be the definition of horrific doctors and atrocious clinicians who tell people with a disease that they should have been born without it, instead of giving people advice to solve their problems. They're totally disconnected from reality, as well (check the 30+ mcat thread if you want examples. you'll have people who started with a 35+ on practice mcat FLs claiming that anyone can do it, when it reality they just started high and ended up with a higher score). Half the people on this site might as well tell you that the secret to getting a GPA is...good grades. Yes, it is but that's **** advice.

you can do anything OP, the first step is to enroll in a SMP that you can succeed in, find out what helps you do well in courses, and the next step is to leave this site, and not let it limit you in any form. Especially since a ton of the advice you'll get here is contradictory in every form.
I'm a Lifetime Donor because I am in debt to SDN. I am the first in my family to go to med school, and I started the process with zero knowledge of what to do and how to get there. If SDN didn't exist, I likely wouldn't be where I am right now or at least have struggled far more to get here. SDN is the internet, which means it can be a little harsh sometimes, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a fountain of great information filled with users that either are going to make astounding physicians or already are there. These generalizations you're making are down right insulting and disingenuous to all the hard work that went into creating this community. If you simply can't handle and filter out some of the more outspoken users, then leave. I'm sure you can find somewhere else that will sugarcoat everything for you.
 
I have learned about a million times more about medical school and the business of medicine from SDN than any other source. There's some bunk info, some bad advice, some idiots, some overly harsh people, etc., but that's what you get in a community format. It's not hard to separate the good from the bad around here.

Don't let mrh125 get you down. Review the threads he's created for his perspective. He doesn't seem to want to listen to anyone.
 
I think, at this point, I'm just going to rely on an SMP to be honest.
 
One thing I haven't considered when I give out my list of the schools that value reinvention is that I never remember which schools have linked SMPs. Rosy Franklin, Drexel, Georgetown and Mt Sinai are but four. Hopefully I can compile a more complete list. To the list below (kudos to Dr Turk), Case and probably Vanderbilt can be added.

Tufts
BU
Drexel
Tulane
NYMC
Suny-Upstate
Albany
EVMS
RFU
VCU
Georgetown
USF
 
Of the three schools on that list I applied to, I (as a 'reinvention' candidate) got interviews at two of them. I wish I had come across such a list last year when I applied (may have existed, though I never came across it). I would have applied to more of those. I can't complain since I ended up getting accepted to my top choice, but this is valuable information regardless.
 
I am talking graduating college with GPAs that start with a 2 because I get the impression from reading some of the older threads on this forum that by some way it can be made up for by strong MCAT scores, doing well in masters levels classes, post bacc, and those things. Like one story I was reading was about some person who finished college with a 2.3 GPA, did an SMP where he did well, had some decent ECs, and made above a 30 on the MCAT and claims that he is in medical school.

No offense to this forum at all, it is a gold mine of amazing information, but I get the impression that sometimes it is being far too optimistic.

3.34 uGPA, 2.99 sGPA. 34 MCAT. Currently in medical school without doing an SMP. I did get a Master's but it had a heavy science load and did have some applicability in the workplace. I worked for a while (in the Army), retook the MCAT, and then applied. It was a long road, but it can be done.
 
I have learned about a million times more about medical school and the business of medicine from SDN than any other source. There's some bunk info, some bad advice, some idiots, some overly harsh people, etc., but that's what you get in a community format. It's not hard to separate the good from the bad around here.

Don't let mrh125 get you down. Review the threads he's created for his perspective. He doesn't seem to want to listen to anyone.

I listen to everyone who doesn't live in the past with "you should have done x, y,and z" tyvm and can actually give solid non-discouraging advice, hence the taking it with a grain of salt. I give you dudes props a ton of advice particularly a lot about volunteering and school selection, but a lot stuff is overwhelming negative on this sight and sets you up for failure, hence my "not listening". I'm not letting anyone especially on a website sell me short.

I encourage and listen to everything worthwhile, doesn't mean I have to follow everything said on this site either.
 
I listen to everyone who doesn't live in the past with "you should have done x, y,and z" tyvm and can actually give solid non-discouraging advice, hence the taking it with a grain of salt. I give you dudes props a ton of advice particularly a lot about volunteering and school selection, but a lot stuff is overwhelming negative on this sight and sets you up for failure, hence my "not listening". I'm not letting anyone especially on a website sell me short.

I encourage and listen to everything worthwhile, doesn't mean I have to follow everything said on this site either.

I owe my medical school acceptance to two things... SDN... and *drumroll* my pre-med advisor!!! I think SDN goes a few different ways. There is definitely great information out there, but there are also people that are pushing you to go above and beyond things you'd need to do. What inspired me to create my recent large threads about getting into medical school are because I think SDN might do certain things wrong. For example, I feel like there is a common mentality on SDN where pre-meds are expected to make this into a meaningful journey. I think that type of reasoning sets some people up for failure, because they will be pressured into getting a high MCAT score and grades, all while feeling even more pressured to do 1000+ volunteering hours over numerous commitments. On the contrary, my pre-med advisor told me what classes to take, and what ECs to get involved in. By combining what he said along with some stuff on SDN, I did very well. I may not have done everything I was supposed to be passionate about according to this site, but I got an acceptance, and that's all that matters. In my opinion, if there was an area between what SDN and what pre-med advisors say, then that would be a happy place. Otherwise, it's easy to get stressed out because you feel so inadequate compared to others on this site. In some cases that might be good, because you're forced to bring out the best game possible. In some cases that might be bad, because you try to do too many things, and end up destroying your grades and MCAT (think doing too many ECs to stay competitive).

As for the OP, you can go two routes:

1. DO and grade forgiveness - This would be the least risky route. Just retake your worst classes. With AACOMAS, your old grades are entirely replaced for all DO schools.
2. MD school and SMP - This is a far riskier route. But if you have a good MCAT and get straight-A's in an SMP, you should be able to get into an MD school. If you blow your chances, then it's all over.

You might want to beef up your ECs, and try to go with a specific service-focus. I know some service-focused schools will accept people with lower stats assuming you have some killer ECs to offer which are in line with their mission statement.
 
I listen to everyone who doesn't live in the past with "you should have done x, y,and z" tyvm and can actually give solid non-discouraging advice, hence the taking it with a grain of salt. I give you dudes props a ton of advice particularly a lot about volunteering and school selection, but a lot stuff is overwhelming negative on this sight and sets you up for failure, hence my "not listening". I'm not letting anyone especially on a website sell me short.

I encourage and listen to everything worthwhile, doesn't mean I have to follow everything said on this site either.

This is a gross mischaracterization of the advice you've gotten on SDN. It is flat-out insulting to all of us that have tried to help you through this process, and I hope you take your own advice and remove your ungrateful self from the site.
 
This is a gross mischaracterization of the advice you've gotten on SDN. It is flat-out insulting to all of us that have tried to help you through this process, and I hope you take your own advice and remove your ungrateful self from the site.

Except it isn't. I appreciate the advice I've been given including yours and it's a gross mischaracterization of me to say that I don't and don't listen. Don't personalize my comments, I hear every piece of advice I've been given out, but there's a good portion of insulting and short-selling advice that I don't listen to. I'm not short-selling myself due to overly negative or insulting advice, bottom line. There's no insult there and that should be quite transparently seen.
 
I know a girl who had a 2.8 GPA undergrad and got into Duke. However, she did extremely well in a post-bac program at a very competitive medical school.

It can be done!
 
About people complaining of SDN harsh language, I am quite grateful of it. Not to go off into irrelevance but it is great to hear the reality of the situation rather than the optimistic part about it. I can believe people with low 3s getting into med school if they reinvented themselves but the user who posted about having a 2.3 in college as an undergrad and getting an MD in the US, I have a tough time believing that.

I know people on SDN and the internet can be harsh and in your face and quite honestly I love that. Would love to hear people tell me that I screwed up royally and give me a pep talk over the "oh we all make mistakes your gonna be okay" because the fact of the matter is if you are making bad grades in college and trying to get into med school, you are not going to be okay!
 
Except it isn't. I appreciate the advice I've been given including yours and it's a gross mischaracterization of me to say that I don't and don't listen. Don't personalize my comments, I hear every piece of advice I've been given out, but there's a good portion of insulting and short-selling advice that I don't listen to. I'm not short-selling myself due to overly negative or insulting advice, bottom line. There's no insult there and that should be quite transparently seen.
1) You don't ACT like you appreciate it. Ever.
2) Perhaps you do listen, but it certainly never seems it, so it's hardly a 'gross mischaracterization'
3) Your comments are insulting.

What? You think anyone can get in? Didn't say it was easy by all means and >60% don't get accepted.
By their bolding of the MCAT score, I believe this was a tongue-in-cheek comment insinuating that a 35+ was difficult to achieve.
I know a girl who had a 2.8 GPA undergrad and got into Duke. However, she did extremely well in a post-bac program at a very competitive medical school.

It can be done!
Were they medical school courses?
Then it was an SMP, not a postbacc. An SMP, as mentioned multiple times in this thread, is one of the main ways to overcome extremely low uGPA.
Of the three schools on that list I applied to, I (as a 'reinvention' candidate) got interviews at two of them. I wish I had come across such a list last year when I applied (may have existed, though I never came across it). I would have applied to more of those. I can't complain since I ended up getting accepted to my top choice, but this is valuable information regardless.
👍👍 Bookmarking this list for use in next year's app cycle!
 
1) You don't ACT like you appreciate it. Ever.
2) Perhaps you do listen, but it certainly never seems it, so it's hardly a 'gross mischaracterization'
3) Your comments are insulting.


By their bolding of the MCAT score, I believe this was a tongue-in-cheek comment insinuating that a 35+ was difficult to achieve.

Were they medical school courses?
Then it was an SMP, not a postbacc. An SMP, as mentioned multiple times in this thread, is one of the main ways to overcome extremely low uGPA.

👍👍 Bookmarking this list for use in next year's app cycle!

I don't have to act like I appreciate advice, I just do appreciate it 🙂.
 
@mehc012 yeah I can see where it could be confusing. I actually did a masters at the same school and had the option to take medical school classes as well. I think there are several programs out there that aren't specifically labeled SMP's (mine was not an SMP) but because its at a medical school (combined with a graduate school of some sort) there are chances for students to take med school classes!
 
nah but you can rearrange some MD's musculoskeletal systems for not accepting you with your osteopathic medical techniques you'll learn in DO school 😛.
 
bumping this old gem to see what the regulars say now
 
The postbacc forum has a lot more info on this than preallo.

Might get the thread moved then. I just posted it because I came across material on post bacc and other places on the forum about how people overcame a poor undergrad experience but almost every single person I know who got into med school in real life had a 3.5+ GPA and a 30+ MCAT score.
 
Might get the thread moved then. I just posted it because I came across material on post bacc and other places on the forum about how people overcame a poor undergrad experience but almost every single person I know who got into med school in real life had a 3.5+ GPA and a 30+ MCAT score.
Well, you can have a ("fixed") low GPA or a ("fixed") low MCAT, not both.
 
Well, you can have a ("fixed") low GPA or a ("fixed") low MCAT, not both.

That's the thing, the people I talk to who have been accepted in real life, they have neither!
 
That's the thing, the people I talk to who have been accepted in real life, they have neither!
I've seen a few posts on WAMC for SMP grads recently. Unfortunately, most of these individuals won't report back to SDN if they get in.
 
I've seen a few posts on WAMC for SMP grads recently. Unfortunately, most of these individuals won't report back to SDN if they get in.
That's the thing, I go by what I know in real life and trends I have observed on the forums over the past few months.

I just cannot see some of these stories coming true when almost every med school applicant that I know who has been accepted has had a 3.5+ and a 30 MCAT in undergrad.
 
That's the thing, I go by what I know in real life and trends I have observed on the forums over the past few months.

I just cannot see some of these stories coming true when almost every med school applicant that I know who has been accepted has had a 3.5+ and a 30 MCAT in undergrad.

Sooo... what's your point? That it doesn't happen?

Let's be real. Students entering SMPs to repair horrific GPAs are a fraction of the total applicant pool each year. It makes sense that you never saw one.
 
That's the thing, I go by what I know in real life and trends I have observed on the forums over the past few months.

I just cannot see some of these stories coming true when almost every med school applicant that I know who has been accepted has had a 3.5+ and a 30 MCAT in undergrad.
Of course, the majority of people with low GPAs don't get in. The majority of "legit" SMP grads get into allopathic med schools. I would worry more about data, and less about what you see personally.
 
I agree that SDN can be pretty harsh on some people. There was a thread recently in which people were telling some guy with a PhD in chemistry, 10 publications, and a 5-teens MCAT not to apply to top schools because he got some Cs in undergrad...

This is not to be taken as ingratitude toward the awesome advice I have received here. It is just a product of an anonymous internet form, especially one geared toward very smart people.
 
I agree that SDN can be pretty harsh on some people. There was a thread recently in which people were telling some guy with a PhD in chemistry, 10 publications, and a 5-teens MCAT not to apply to top schools because he got some Cs in undergrad...

This is not to be taken as ingratitude toward the awesome advice I have received here. It is just a product of an anonymous internet form, especially one geared toward very smart people.

Honestly, the best way to receive unbiased advice is to PM the adcoms (with their approval of course) your WAMC post and plan accordingly. Adcoms know far more about the medical school admissions process than recently accepted medical students and premeds.
 
I am confused here, you're telling me that someone who messes up in undergrad to where they have a GPA like the 2.3 mentioned in the OP can somehow, if they have changed and really want to be an MD, come back a few years later more mature and if they get into an SMP which they ace and get a nice MCAT score, they can get an MD admission somewhere?
 
I am confused here, you're telling me that someone who messes up in undergrad to where they have a GPA like the 2.3 mentioned in the OP can somehow, if they have changed and really want to be an MD, come back a few years later more mature and if they get into an SMP which they ace and get a nice MCAT score, they can get an MD admission somewhere?

probably
 
I am confused here, you're telling me that someone who messes up in undergrad to where they have a GPA like the 2.3 mentioned in the OP can somehow, if they have changed and really want to be an MD, come back a few years later more mature and if they get into an SMP which they ace and get a nice MCAT score, they can get an MD admission somewhere?
Possibly. A <3.0 GPA may still keep you out. Which is why you should always try and get it over a 3.0.
 
I am confused here, you're telling me that someone who messes up in undergrad to where they have a GPA like the 2.3 mentioned in the OP can somehow, if they have changed and really want to be an MD, come back a few years later more mature and if they get into an SMP which they ace and get a nice MCAT score, they can get an MD admission somewhere?
The problem with that is that SMPs themselves are fairly competitive to get into. You'd need a really solid MCAT with a 2.3
 
Yes, you can be an MD with poor undergrad grades. Is it ideal? No. Does it make things much, much harder? Yes.

I had terrible undergrad grades because I didn't take my first couple of years of college seriously. I had about 30+ units of F's and D's. Dropped out of college and joined the military. Completely re-invented myself in that time and did very well in school after I got out. Did well on the MCAT (30+). I was fortunate enough to garner an acceptance last cycle. So it's definitely not impossible, but it's an uphill battle with the kind of grades I had that pulled my cGPA down.
 
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