Canadian Pathology

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The previous thread was deleted at OP request, moving the posts to a new thread here. This is the article that was linked to.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundlan...sts-offer.html

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did you actually read the article you linked?!

pathologists are fleeing due to "inquistorial" tactics of the local government officials.

Yes, Im sure it is great in Ontario, which is why there are no pathologists there....:rolleyes:

Two pathologists tendered their resignations with Eastern Health this spring. A third is on stress leave.

Williams sparked a controversy earlier this month when he linked what he called "inquisitorial methods" at the Cameron inquiry with staffing problems.

mly0727l.jpg
 
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They are leaving Newfoundland/Labrador to work in Ontario for more money...

Huh..really. The premier of the district (dunno something akin to a governor?) claimed inquistorial tactics were used. You do realize that phrase implies much more than undercompensation right?

right?

Usually means they were hung out to dry. If I wanted a shot at getting inquisitioned on, I would go to Saudi Arabia or Dubai and make 500K+ Euros, aka real money.

Private docs were making 300,000USD a MONTH when supplies were short for the military in Baghdad, doesnt mean we are going to jump on a plane to go there.

Here is more info:
Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Danny Williams had sharp words Thursday for how the breast cancer inquiry that his government struck a year ago is performing.

"I think a lot of people are concerned by the inquiry … not so much the format of the inquiry, but the style of the inquiry," Williams said Thursday evening after a high-level meeting with medical officials aimed at solving a crisis in staffing levels among pathologists and other professionals.

"It was acknowledged by ourselves and by the doctors in the room that [with] the inquisitorial methods that are being used, it appears to be more of a prosecution than an inquiry."

In essence, the government is raising their meager wages because they jacked the pathologists so hard a bunch left...
so no, Canada still sucks for pathologists. And indeed, your links prove it.

If ALL the pathologists left, we might be witnessing the first modern example of Medical Atlas Shrugged. Actually these stories are quite awesome.
 
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Don't bother with anything else on that article

WTF...Um noooo. Usually I like to read the whole article and even other articles to get a better understanding, not just read the small bits here and there that support my prejudices...

No, Canada is a medical waste land. Some MDs are lucky enough to make some coin by appeasing the Proletariat socialist cabal you guys have running the show up there but by and large your average pathologist is probably locked in some Dr. Zhivago f'ing nightmare.

I would not be suprised if the government dictated when Pathologists can take piss breaks. Stress leave, I would shoot myself.

Anyway, I would probably be marched to the Newfoundland Gulag for being a Bourgeois exploiter of the noble socialist working class.
 
lol Why so much hate for Canada?

I dont hate Canada, actually is incredibly beautiful country.

I do hate the exploitation of pathologists and physicians in general in the name of the common good, something socialists are quite good at.

I would rather be a pauper in LA, living in a small apartment and eating Taco Bell than be up in Canada and having a Stasi officer tell me when I can grab a cup of coffee or take a piss during sign out and make that 300,000Canadian.

Dunno, call me crazy I guess.
 
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The only real leverage we have anymore is to abandon areas where the working conditions are unacceptable. Looks like supply and demand working in perfect concert, to me.
 
The only real leverage we have anymore is to abandon areas where the working conditions are unacceptable. Looks like supply and demand working in perfect concert, to me.

actually in many countries they are considering using Soviet era tactics of dictating/"stationing" MDs to areas where they need em. If the docs refuse, then they cant practice anywhere in the country. Even going so far as to suggest they wont verify they are even real MDs if they try to take their credentials abroad.

It is scary as crap.
 
actually in many countries they are considering using Soviet era tactics of dictating/"stationing" MDs to areas where they need em. If the docs refuse, then they cant practice anywhere in the country. Even going so far as to suggest they wont verify they are even real MDs if they try to take their credentials abroad.

It is scary as crap.

It reminds me of what Clinton tried to do in the early-mid 90s...

NYT said:
"In an effort to create more family doctors, President Clinton's health plan would empower the Federal Government to decide how many doctors should be trained each year as family practitioners, radiologists, surgeons, neurologists and other specialists."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE3D6103BF936A2575AC0A965958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1

Why increase compensation to attract applicants when you can simply force MDs into the field that best suits the "greater good"?

It's ok, though....I'm sure Obama will take a free-market approach when considering reimbursments for universal care.... :rolleyes:

I, for one, welcome our new Federal Overlords.
kent_brockman.gif
 
actually in many countries they are considering using Soviet era tactics of dictating/"stationing" MDs to areas where they need em. If the docs refuse, then they cant practice anywhere in the country. Even going so far as to suggest they wont verify they are even real MDs if they try to take their credentials abroad.

It is scary as crap.

fear.jpg
 
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2008/05/23/pathologists-offer.html

"The starting salary for an Ontario pathologist is about $340,000."
Not too many months ago, I verified with a Canadian professor that this is a little high, but not far off.

As you mentioned, physician/pathologist salary varies from region to region and across provinces, roughly in the pattern you describe.

Good to hear that Nfld/Lab brought about the pay raise. It'll be interesting to see how the details are worked out. Certainly it is a step in the right direction with regards to the so-called "brain drain".

Nobody is saying Canada is perfect - however, likening the situation in Canada to that of Baghdad is laughable (even under guise of poetic licence - come on LADoc00, you can do better than that!) ;) I had to go away and do my knee-slapping in another room before coming back with my serious face to respond to that.
 
Nobody is saying Canada is perfect - however, likening the situation in Canada to that of Baghdad is laughable (even under guise of poetic licence - come on LADoc00, you can do better than that!) ;) I had to go away and do my knee-slapping in another room before coming back with my serious face to respond to that.

Oh my bad. Doing Path (really more transfusion medicine) in Iraq is way better. The entire amount is tax free, the pay is sky high and you can spend a year on the Greek isle of Santorini sucking down sangria for each month you are there.

But I agree, no one is perfect. I just really really really hate socialism, if you cant tell. So much so actually I named my fav handgun "Adam Smith".
 
pathology is way better in canada in my opinion now that the eastern provinces have come up to par with the rest of the country. 320K for 50 hours a week (including call) malpractice is extremely low in canada cause almost all doctors are covered by a national system, and people dont tend to sue as often cause they usually lose anyways. and there is alot of freedom here in canada. now i respect ladocs libertarian ideals (i'm a bit of a libertarian myself) but canada is wonderful for docs. theres no voerhead taken from the 320k, you get healtcare, education, great pension plan system that is in the green (not in the red like in the states) a country that has budget surpluses in the billions ever year (despite out 'evil' social program spending). now i have my qualms with socialism, but it seems to be working rather well here in canada. I ehar alot of americans talking about how long people have to wait for procedures in canada, but thats mainly bull. if you need a procedure you will get it, no wait time period. we use common sense medicine here, and the the biggest bang for our buck.

stay copacetic!!!

i look forward to your response ladoc. i love ya man!! to me ladoc is like the apacheindian of pathology. always standing up for it, but in this case i have to disagree with you when you say that the states are better for pathology than canada.
 
my statement is figurative, regardless the socialist worker model for healthcare dictates productivity goals for each pathologist, so many slides per day. This turns a professional into a common manufacturing employee, producing widgets of output, destroying the majesty and artistry of medicine.

See, in socialism everything revolves around the common good. The individual is merely an expendable cog of work to perpetuate the system. The nature of it cant help but treat some people like crap, in this case the pathologists.

:thumbup::thumbup:

Ladoc for president!!!
 
The Canadian medical "Comintern" is run by what Lenin called the Clan of "Useful Idiots". A group of pseudo intellectuals rallied by a misguided concept of "social justice" to press forward the idea that the individual is naturally subservient to society.

For physicians this is not new. Romans kept large numbers of Greek and Arabic physicians as slaves throughout the history of their empire. This theme was retread by Boris Leonidovich Pasternak's Dr Zhivago where the main character is enslaved by the Bolsheviks and dragged away from his family and loved ones.

If I were to take a race of people with a long established history of being enslaved and forced them all to be workers, with no chance of independence, self employment or self direction, wouldnt I be a racist?

So how can Canada dictate as a Physician it is illegal for me to buy a small office and hang out a shingle (maybe as my ancestor once did) and there not be one voice of protest from the international medical community that such edicts are paramount to employment slavery? Why do organizations like the CAP freely comingle with Canadian counterparts and do nothing?

Do not put forward the idea that Canadian pathologists have a good life, ample vacation and opportunities at happiness, this is immaterial and indeed completely relative. Such erroneous justification is not new, often used in history by Southern plantation owners, Roman officials and Soviety party members.

Canada is in search of a socialist utopia, one where all the people have ample healthcare and access to top quality pathologists. Canada as evident by this incident does not care the damage it does to the individual to achieve this grand goal. That should scare every single one of us.

After the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution, cadets were marched into a room in the czar's palace, where in the name of socialism their heads were crushed in a large piano.

Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.
-M. Thatcher

The historical experience of socialist countries has sadly demonstrated that collectivism does not do away with alienation but rather increases it, adding to it a lack of basic necessities and economic inefficiency
-Pope J Paul II

The Idiots of socialism are slaves, but they are no one's property and therefore no one's loss.
-G Reisman

As for me, I am deeply a democrat; this is why I am in no way a socialist. Democracy and socialism cannot go together. You can't have it both ways... socialism is a new form of slavery.
-Alexis-Charles-Henri Clérel de Tocqueville

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
-W Churchill
 
It's all very well to talk theory - unfortunately like copacetic I have limited arguments on those grounds - but in terms of experience, being a patient (even though just an outpatient) in the U.S. healthcare system has frankly put me off. I have to remember the terms of my medical insurance coverage and not go to any out-of-network (heaven forbid out-of-state) provider. Otherwise I sink a couple hundred dollars in clinic bills for a 10-minute visit despite having supposed private insurance, because it was a "non-preventive care" visit and wouldn't be covered.

I've only been here for a few years, and I don't know how much regional variation/insurance plans play into this, but all I can think is that if it's this way for someone who purportedly is in the middle class, I cannot imagine what it must be like for the lower class. Oh wait, just watch SiCKO.

And the middle class is shrinking fast.
 
I'll tell you what happens in the lower class:
You go to a county hospital and get treated for free, and the "shrinking" middle class tax payers pay for it.
 
The Canadian medical "Comintern" is run by what Lenin called the Clan of "Useful Idiots". A group of pseudo intellectuals rallied by a misguided concept of "social justice" to press forward the idea that the individual is naturally subservient to society.

For physicians this is not new. Romans kept large numbers of Greek and Arabic physicians as slaves throughout the history of their empire. This theme was retread by Boris Leonidovich Pasternak's Dr Zhivago where the main character is enslaved by the Bolsheviks and dragged away from his family and loved ones.

If I were to take a race of people with a long established history of being enslaved and forced them all to be workers, with no chance of independence, self employment or self direction, wouldnt I be a racist?

So how can Canada dictate as a Physician it is illegal for me to buy a small office and hang out a shingle (maybe as my ancestor once did) and there not be one voice of protest from the international medical community that such edicts are paramount to employment slavery? Why do organizations like the CAP freely comingle with Canadian counterparts and do nothing?

Do not put forward the idea that Canadian pathologists have a good life, ample vacation and opportunities at happiness, this is immaterial and indeed completely relative. Such erroneous justification is not new, often used in history by Southern plantation owners, Roman officials and Soviety party members.

Canada is in search of a socialist utopia, one where all the people have ample healthcare and access to top quality pathologists. Canada as evident by this incident does not care the damage it does to the individual to achieve this grand goal. That should scare every single one of us.
Right on. Furthermore, any country that employs a risible human rights commission that can haul free men and women before a tribunal on trumped up charges of "Islamophobia" deserves to be shunned and driven to ultimate collapse by all free men and women a la Dagny Taggert and Henry Rearden. All men and women who would flee to Canada for a "better lifestyle" deserve what they get when the government decides to deprive one of liberty and property in the name of social harmony, and I for one do not consider living my life beneath the bootheel of "Canadian harmony and benificence" to be a better lifestyle.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NTY3NGU4ZDJmNDM1OWVkZmYwMjUzYTJiM2JlYmQ5Y2Q=

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...nants-don-t-understand-freedom-of-speech.aspx
 
I thought $340,000 was the cap on salary, not the starting salary. I guess it could be both.

there is no salary cap in canada. a little while back a conservative (go figure) government tried to do that in ontario. i think the put the cap for doctors in general at something like 400K. what happened is doctors worked for like half the year, then went on vacation. whats the point of working for free eh? that experiment failed miserbaly, and the liberal government got rid of that ridiculous cap.
 
Everyone on these boards should famarilize themselves with
Atlas Shrugged by Rand (this is by far the most critical)
Dr Zhivago
Communist Manifesto
The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror and Repression aka Le Livre noir du communisme : Crimes, terreur, répression
The Wealth of Nations by A Smith
works of Friedrich von Hayek including The Fatal Conceit
and of course work of the late Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn

Once you have a basical familiarity with what you are facing AND you are truly brave in exploring the role of individualism and the individual's power over the societal conditioning, I can suggest books from my own ethnic heritage by Dr. Carlos Castaneda, most importantly The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge.

To these political treatises I would add:

Enchiridion Epictetus
Ethics and On Duty Zeno
The Consolation of Philosophy Boethius

These works provide the philosophical underpinnings to refute the canard that is the modern welfare state.
 
So how can Canada dictate as a Physician it is illegal for me to buy a small office and hang out a shingle (maybe as my ancestor once did) and there not be one voice of protest from the international medical community that such edicts are paramount to employment slavery? Why do organizations like the CAP freely comingle with Canadian counterparts and do nothing?

Do not put forward the idea that Canadian pathologists have a good life, ample vacation and opportunities at happiness, this is immaterial and indeed completely relative. Such erroneous justification is not new, often used in history by Southern plantation owners, Roman officials and Soviety party members.

Canada is in search of a socialist utopia, one where all the people have ample healthcare and access to top quality pathologists. Canada as evident by this incident does not care the damage it does to the individual to achieve this grand goal. That should scare every single one of us.

It's kinda messed up that the three people discussing things the most in this thread are 2 premeds and LAdoc.

LAdoc, I'm a pretty big fan of yours but you are dead wrong with your assumptions on this one. Please don't take this as a personal attack, but it is fairly clear from what you've stated in this thread that you've had very little if any interaction with Canadian pathologists, let alone spent any time at their work place or in a Canadian hospital. Atleast copacetic has a pretty good idea about Canadian pathologists.

To clarify things, and to encourage Canadian pathoblasts, being a Canadian pathologist is a sweet gig, no matter how you look at it. In my province, Ontario, job offers right now are starting at 350,000/year. The pathologists at my centre have their incomes posted online (what the government pays them as a salary) and they receive other income on top of this to teach, do consults, and perform forensic autopsies. There is no overhead as the hospital fronts the bill. Hours can be as good as 10-3 (making the above salary), though 9-4 is most typical. At my centre the facilities are great, there are tons of PAs, and you get 6-7 weeks paid vacation per year. You're in charge of looking at 120 slides or so a day, the rest you leave for the next day.

Further, as alluded to in the article posted above, Newfoundland has had trouble retaining pathologists, if only because Newfoundland is a pretty isolated, barren, and frankly boring province with a **** economy. The "inquisition" was directed more towards the hospital's administration (and refusal to heed pathologists' warnings) rather than at pathologists themselves. These people will have no trouble finding positions outside that province and have probably only stayed for family reasons.

Finally, LAdocs assumptions about our "Soviet style" medical system/work conditions are entirely unfounded. Our economy and healthcare system are much more similar to yours than you think. Despite what many people believe, privatization is alive and well in our healthcare system. If I had the capital I could open up a GP clinic, medical lab or a radiology suite or a botox clinic or a Lasik clinic etc. For the former 3 the big difference is that the tax payer foots the bill for "medically necessary" procedures/tests, e.g. the lab/radiology suite presents a bill to the province (each test has a standardized fee), which then gives them a cheque. In fact, the richest physician in Canada is a pathologist (according to a Canadian Business article I read 3-4 years ago) who founded CML labs. The reason we don't have private surgical pathology practices per se is the prohibitive cost of establishing a laborotory AND convincing a hospital/group of doctors that there is a competitive advantage to diverting specimens towards the private clinic, since the government foots the bill anyways. The reason private radiology practices can exist is that they have the competitive advantage of speedier tests compared to hospital radiologists, as the latter are often used for more intense/heavy workloads from inpatient services and the purchasing of new equipment and staffing is encumbered by administrative red tape.

I'm not trying to say our system is better than the American one, but the myth of a 100% socialist system where the Gestapo control every move of every MD should be dispelled.

The last thing I want to add, actually, is that while we may all start at 350k or whatever, our salaries don't usually go too much higher from there since we're all paid fairly similarly and you can't really buy into a partnership or anything like that. Also, we do pay much higher tax up here than you guys. However, our Canadian dollar is *almost* worth as much as the USD, and earlier this year we were ahead for a while :D.

h
 
Did you say 350K for 120 slides a day?
 
OK, so here's the deal: I deleted parts of the original thread on canadian pathology because some users were apparently being harassed by those who think the thread resulted in dissemination of information that was not supposed to be disseminated (kind of a "they took err jobs" kind of thing, Canadian version). However, this is clearly publicly available information, being published in online newspapers.

I don't think people deserve to be harassed, but I also don't think harassing tactics should be condoned. So I have replaced the old thread with this one, which includes almost all of the previous posts except for a couple of the truly extraneous ones. Feel free to post away if you think the thread still has things to talk about. But we are not going to censor discussion of certain topics just because some individuals worry that others might find out about their good job and take it from them.
 
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