Candidate posting FAIL....

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This person posted their CV, prior positions held, and their references with phone numbers on pathoutlines.com for the world to see. Not to mention his last name is in the web address line. Not a good move...


http://www.pathologyoutlines.com/jobs.html#neumann

Members don't see this ad.
 
And you linking someone else's personal info to the forum to further increase the risk some creep will misuse their personal data is somehow smarter?
 
And you linking someone else's personal info to the forum to further increase the risk some creep will misuse their personal data is somehow smarter?

These interwebs are hard, aren't they.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Other than the possibility of bots using the email address to send spam, I don't see the huge risk or worry behind posting this kind of widely available (more or less) professional career info. Maybe I don't worry enough, but seems pretty low risk/potentially high yield to me.
 
Such an experienced pathologist should apply to the openings directly, rather than posting his information waiting for the employers to contact him....

I liked the description of "triple boarded"....
 
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Yeah, anyone who has done a boarded fellowship is triple boarded. I suppose that I could say I'm "double boarded" now and soon to be "triple boarded".

I'm sure all of his references appreciate him posting their name, telephone number, physical address and email address on a public website. I wonder if he got their permission to do that?
 
Yeah, anyone who has done a boarded fellowship is triple boarded. I suppose that I could say I'm "double boarded" now and soon to be "triple boarded".

I'm sure all of his references appreciate him posting their name, telephone number, physical address and email address on a public website. I wonder if he got their permission to do that?


Chances are their names could already be posted on a website. That one says chariman of pathology at CU denver health surely his information is public. My number, work address, phone and email are available on a public website as are most academic pathologists and residents in most universities. I never thought a thing about it.

What sort of weird things do you do with that information that those people should be worried about?
 
Yeah, anyone who has done a boarded fellowship is triple boarded. I suppose that I could say I'm "double boarded" now and soon to be "triple boarded".

I'm sure all of his references appreciate him posting their name, telephone number, physical address and email address on a public website. I wonder if he got their permission to do that?

triple boarded=AP,CP and some other board such as SP or DP or FP

way too many of us have 3 boards and frankly how many IM people have 3 boards?? or even surgeons!
 
Can you get a job with 1 board in pathology? I would be shocked if that job exists today. I have never heard, seen, or known of anyone able to do this. (nobody needs a pathologist...we are a dime a dozen)
 
Dermpathdoc, I will give you IM docs not having multiple boards.

On the surgeon front, they already have a 5+ year residency, so that the equivalent in time to an AP/CP/Fellow type program in terms of time commitment (we will ignore the incongruity in terms of hours/yr) and we get more letters too :p.

What is a reasonable alternative to the status quo though, if you remove the additional training, I would think you will probably be forced to create pathologists who are pre-specialized like "bone-only" or "gi-only".

The other alternative I can think of is that you have a two-tiered system like in primary care, where you have the GP ("basic path" boarded) and the specialists (fellowship'ed people). The GP basically figures out which specialist to turf things to.
 
Or... we could scrap AP/CP and just get boarded in general pathology. Keep the same training but just have one board to get rid of this whole ridiculous "triple boarded" BS.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Can you get a job with 1 board in pathology? I would be shocked if that job exists today. I have never heard, seen, or known of anyone able to do this. (nobody needs a pathologist...we are a dime a dozen)

Perhaps an academic job where you're AP-only and are specializing in a non-boarded subspecialty?
 
The combined AP/CP could be renamed as diagnostic medicine ...

But by making you take more boards, don't they make more $$, I think you get a break for the combo AP/CP, but it is still significantly more than a single board costs (thus it will likely never come to pass).
 
But by making you take more boards, don't they make more $$, I think you get a break for the combo AP/CP, but it is still significantly more than a single board costs (thus it will likely never come to pass).

Who makes more money off of us taking boards? The ABP? I understand that the ABP is a non-profit organization that aims to break even. So unless they are paying Betsy Bennett and the other staff of the ABP some really big money, I don't see what point they really have in trying to charge us more for board exams. Maybe I am naive?
 
Who makes more money off of us taking boards? The ABP? I understand that the ABP is a non-profit organization that aims to break even. So unless they are paying Betsy Bennett and the other staff of the ABP some really big money, I don't see what point they really have in trying to charge us more for board exams. Maybe I am naive?

So far in my life I have never seen the cost of an exam / number required go down (they always seem to be on an upward trajectory). It just seems to be the culture of the world.

I was actually thinking more along the lines of keeping the status quo. I don't know if they publish non-profit salaries (I know they publish government ones).

I have no idea where the money actually goes for all of these exams we take (if there is some sort of breakdown that says where it is being spent, that would be awesome), but I have never seen an institution say ... here lets make things cheaper. (The only caveat to that statement may be the UCSF, because I think they became tuition free for instate more recently does anyone know when that happened or if it has always been).
 
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It should be reasonably simple to find out.

How many people took AP/CP boards this year? How much did they pay? What is the estimated rent on their offices in downtown Tampa? How many people write questions and do administrative tasks? What would be reasonable salary/benefits for them?

Dr. Bennett and other pathologists who are heavily involved with the board are probably paid equivalent to what they would make as a practicing pathologist.


Let's say that 500 people sat for AP/CP this year and paid $2200 per person. That is $1.1 million in revenue per year (I assume that exam fees are the board's only revenue source, I may be wrong). Let's say Dr. Bennett's salary is equivalent to a practicing pathologist in the 250-300k range. That leaves 800-850k to run the rest of the business. After taxes are taken out, you have to pay monthly rent on a lot of office space in downtown Tampa, salary/benefits for employees, equipment/computer upkeep/advances, pay people to write questions and vet them, and so forth. I don't know how much those things cost, but I'm sure someone here can get a reasonable approximation.
 
Who makes more money off of us taking boards? The ABP? I understand that the ABP is a non-profit organization that aims to break even. So unless they are paying Betsy Bennett and the other staff of the ABP some really big money, I don't see what point they really have in trying to charge us more for board exams. Maybe I am naive?

They give her a reasonable salary but have you seen the house and car that are provided to her for free?

375-Brightwaters-Blvd-NE-Snell-Isle-St-Petersburg-Tampa-Bay-Area.jpg


Bugatti01.jpg
 
Who makes more money off of us taking boards? The ABP? I understand that the ABP is a non-profit organization that aims to break even. So unless they are paying Betsy Bennett and the other staff of the ABP some really big money, I don't see what point they really have in trying to charge us more for board exams. Maybe I am naive?

I suspect that the ABP takes in a lot more money than they spend. They can call themselves non-profit because they put the money into a pot for future projects and "necessary upgrades" and all that business. Plus, they spend tons of money on getting the board together and meetings. They have to plan for the future which may or may not include unexpected expenditure increases such as capital projects, equipment, potential staffing, regulatory requirements, things like that. It's like big universities - they are "non-profit" but only in the sense that they don't "profit" but "endow" themselves for the future. A future in which they don't spend the endowment either!
 
I suspect that the ABP takes in a lot more money than they spend. They can call themselves non-profit because they put the money into a pot for future projects and "necessary upgrades" and all that business. Plus, they spend tons of money on getting the board together and meetings. They have to plan for the future which may or may not include unexpected expenditure increases such as capital projects, equipment, potential staffing, regulatory requirements, things like that. It's like big universities - they are "non-profit" but only in the sense that they don't "profit" but "endow" themselves for the future. A future in which they don't spend the endowment either!

Yes, that is true that a non-profit can keep a pot of cash for the future, they just don't pay it out to share holders or anything. I just hear a lot of people talk about how the ABP is trying to change regulations, require MOC, etc just to "make more money" and that seems kind of silly to me.
 
cool, this thread made my point from the other thread: BC pathologists are easier to find than out of work Michigan autoworkers....

perhaps for less too?? :laugh:
 
Who makes more money off of us taking boards? The ABP? I understand that the ABP is a non-profit organization that aims to break even. So unless they are paying Betsy Bennett and the other staff of the ABP some really big money, I don't see what point they really have in trying to charge us more for board exams. Maybe I am naive?

There's NO justification for the fees they exact for their services. NONE. For example, if you originally apply to be AP/CP, pass one of the tests and change your mind and decide to be boarded in just AP or CP, they charge you $1,000. What is that money paying for? What does it cost- like 16 cents to have an ABP secretary backspace twice on the certificate document to take two letters off? Its a crock of $hit and they know it. They know they are the gatekeeper and we have to pay whatever they say so they charge astronomical unjustified fees. They're not particularly friendly when you call them either.
 
There's NO justification for the fees they exact for their services. NONE. For example, if you originally apply to be AP/CP, pass one of the tests and change your mind and decide to be boarded in just AP or CP, they charge you $1,000. What is that money paying for? What does it cost- like 16 cents to have an ABP secretary backspace twice on the certificate document to take two letters off? Its a crock of $hit and they know it. They know they are the gatekeeper and we have to pay whatever they say so they charge astronomical unjustified fees. They're not particularly friendly when you call them either.

yeah this argument is like decades old, back in the 90s when they first sent the prices skyrocketing for the pay for the new digs and huge staff in Tampa.

sad....sad actually for all of us.
 
There's NO justification for the fees they exact for their services. NONE. For example, if you originally apply to be AP/CP, pass one of the tests and change your mind and decide to be boarded in just AP or CP, they charge you $1,000. What is that money paying for? What does it cost- like 16 cents to have an ABP secretary backspace twice on the certificate document to take two letters off? Its a crock of $hit and they know it. They know they are the gatekeeper and we have to pay whatever they say so they charge astronomical unjustified fees. They're not particularly friendly when you call them either.

Sorry i keep returning to this topic, and it it too late for most of you on this board, but for any pre-meds/med students here you will never pay a penny for any of this crap, your pay and bennies will be far better than any civillian resident/fellow, you will walk out of training without a penny of debt( unless you are irresponsible) and when you apply for a job you will have REAL INDEPENDENT post residency/fellowship EXPERIENCE if you join the military and cut thru all this crap.
 
Sorry i keep returning to this topic, and it it too late for most of you on this board, but for any pre-meds/med students here you will never pay a penny for any of this crap, your pay and bennies will be far better than any civillian resident/fellow, you will walk out of training without a penny of debt( unless you are irresponsible) and when you apply for a job you will have REAL INDEPENDENT post residency/fellowship EXPERIENCE if you join the military and cut thru all this crap.

mikesheree, have you considered a career as a recruiter? ;-)
 
Sorry i keep returning to this topic, and it it too late for most of you on this board, but for any pre-meds/med students here you will never pay a penny for any of this crap, your pay and bennies will be far better than any civillian resident/fellow, you will walk out of training without a penny of debt( unless you are irresponsible) and when you apply for a job you will have REAL INDEPENDENT post residency/fellowship EXPERIENCE if you join the military and cut thru all this crap.

Whoa, tap the brakes a bit Mike.

I enjoy being a military pathologist and the benefits mentioned above are certainly real, but like all things in life, there is another side to the coin.

The Army and Navy have recently begun deploying pathologists with internships as general medical officers (read clinician PCP) to Iraq and Afghanistan. Pathologists without internships are being deployed as administrative medical officers overseeing multiple units as well. Most of the pathologists I know are none to pleased that they won't be seeing glass for a year in all cases, and in some cases are going to be serving as PCPs having not done a physical exam in 5 plus years.


The peripatetic life of a military pathologist is something else that must be borne. It would take more fingers than I possess to count the residents I knew whose spouses' careers have been derailed by the constant moving. One former resident thought that his wife's career was safe because his wife could work anywhere in the country via computer. Guess where the Navy sent him? Yup, Okinawa, the one place where she couldn't continue with the company. Suffice it to say, the military cares little about one's geographic constraints.

Furthermore, military GME applicants have no guarantees about even being able to train in one's residency of choice. The branches of the military have need of a specific number of pathologists, and when that number is met, well the rest can do internship and serve as general medical officers or train in chronically undermanned specialties like FP and IM.

I'm not trying to scare away the future excellent pathologists of the military. I think our training programs are excellent, and I enjoy serving (most of the time). But those considering serving in the military must understand that when your desires conflict with those of the military, the military will win--in all circumstances. For some, the desire to serve will allow those other desires to be placed in abeyance, for others this is not the case. Know thyself.
 
Had a butterfly barfed the other direction in China at the time, I would have gone the military route. It's pretty hard to ignore the financial benefits, despite the (how many?) years of service you trade for it. The average graduating med student in 2009 had debt of $156,456 (AMA website, based on AAMC data), and if you add better salary during residency, you don't even have to consider interest before realizing you're talking about a nice starter house -- or better, these days, depending on where you are. It's financially quite compelling, though you have to realize you may not want to be single at the end of even just the mandatory service, and it takes a unique partner to handle the other side of the coin. It's actually one of the things I recall being harped on when I was looking into it, unless one already had military in the family.
 
Whoa, tap the brakes a bit Mike.

I enjoy being a military pathologist and the benefits mentioned above are certainly real, but like all things in life, there is another side to the coin.

The Army and Navy have recently begun deploying pathologists with internships as general medical officers (read clinician PCP) to Iraq and Afghanistan. Pathologists without internships are being deployed as administrative medical officers overseeing multiple units as well. Most of the pathologists I know are none to pleased that they won't be seeing glass for a year in all cases, and in some cases are going to be serving as PCPs having not done a physical exam in 5 plus years.


The peripatetic life of a military pathologist is something else that must be borne. It would take more fingers than I possess to count the residents I knew whose spouses' careers have been derailed by the constant moving. One former resident thought that his wife's career was safe because his wife could work anywhere in the country via computer. Guess where the Navy sent him? Yup, Okinawa, the one place where she couldn't continue with the company. Suffice it to say, the military cares little about one's geographic constraints.

Furthermore, military GME applicants have no guarantees about even being able to train in one's residency of choice. The branches of the military have need of a specific number of pathologists, and when that number is met, well the rest can do internship and serve as general medical officers or train in chronically undermanned specialties like FP and IM.

I'm not trying to scare away the future excellent pathologists of the military. I think our training programs are excellent, and I enjoy serving (most of the time). But those considering serving in the military must understand that when your desires conflict with those of the military, the military will win--in all circumstances. For some, the desire to serve will allow those other desires to be placed in abeyance, for others this is not the case. Know thyself.

i fully admit you make some good points.when i was in it was the cold war and the closest i got to any "action" was the inside of a ballistic missle sub. I was fortunate enough to get all state side duty and my wife was a "home-maker". the risks are significantly higher today
 
Hahaha. I like the "tap the brakes there" line. Im going to steal and use it fequently.
:laugh:

MilMed would be great if
1.) we could all be in San Diego (Spanish for whale's vagina Im told)
2.) there werent any crazed Islamic militants disguised as fellow docs

the pension and lifetime health benes are astounding, if I did it definitely would go for the 20yrs in.
 
Mike, I'm sorry if I came across as contentious. Everything you said is true, and a great pathology career can be fashioned from the medical corps, as your career illustrates. My goal is to prevent those physicians who could be "money-whipped" into joining from doing so. As I'm sure you remember, there is nothing worse than those colleagues who gleefully took the money during med school and residency and then became resentful when the military came calling for its recompense: the schemers who threaten and lie to get the assignment of their choice, the ones who stay pregnant through their entire service obligation forcing colleagues into 3rd and 4th deployments, and the ones who flat out can't be bothered to do anything cause "I'm here to do the bare minimum for my 4 years and then I'm gonna GTFO."

Hahaha. I like the "tap the brakes there" line. Im going to steal and use it fequently.
:laugh:

MilMed would be great if
1.) we could all be in San Diego (Spanish for whale's vagina Im told)
2.) there werent any crazed Islamic militants disguised as fellow docs

the pension and lifetime health benes are astounding, if I did it definitely would go for the 20yrs in.

1.)Well, part of my love for the Army is due to the fact that I can spend my entire career in places like San Antonio TX, Columbus GA, and Lawton OK. Vive la difference.

2.)Malik represent one of the major problems with military medicine. It took him 6 years to graduate medical school and he was a well known problem resident, but by that time the military has sunk over 500k into his training and is loathe to write off the cash while burdening his colleagues with his work and deployments. The result is that the medical corps is populated with some real "winners."

Finally, in response to KCShaw, I think the military route is a darn good one for anybody who is absolutely 100% sure they want to do forensics. The pay as a resident and fellow is much better. It is one of the fellowships offered every year because of the military's need for forensic pathologists. There is the ability to homestead in the D.C. area at OAFME or go to farflung places like Okinawa and Japan to serve a combined conventional pathologist/forensic pathologist role. And finally, how many forensic pathologists have answering machine messages that proclaim that they are out of the office for the next week because they are performing a death investigation in Kathmandu.
 
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