Can't decide! Physician, Nurse practitioner, CRNA, or Physician assistant?

[JustintheDoctor]

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Well, I'm doing nursing, my school doesn't allow you into the program right away like some nursing schools. So I will get a bsn and work. Then I will go into a part-time NP program or if I want to go to med-school I will try that. As of this moment, nursing is calling for me

 

[Psai]

I worked with a couple of primary care physicians that put on their consults 'to be seen only by physician--not PA/NP'. That ticked off some NP...

It shouldn't even have to be said. You order a consult to obtain an expert opinion

 

[Crayola227]

Look up medical model and nursing model. That helped me understand some of the differences. Do a lot of research on these professions, shadow if you can.
As to "mom stuff", I had similar worries. For me, I just realized that I wouldn't be happy as a nurse or PA, I wanted the education and knowledge of a physician. I'm way happier as a pre-med than I ever was doing anything else. Don't disregard what you really want for a pie-in-the-sky idea of having to be a mom and have kids. Who knows how that will pan out. Be true to yourself and you'll find a way to make it work. Plenty of women do.
From what I can tell, the medical field is becoming more friendly to part-time work and time off for mothers. I won't comment any more since I'm not terribly knowledgeable on that.

You have no idea, as you said, "way happier as a pre-med." "From what you can tell." Mom docs are going part time more because full-time is miserable and go ahead look it up avg hours for doc after residency is 60-70hrs, not much better than residency hrs but bigger paycheck. With inflation and current trends in physician reimbursement many are finding that their misery and time just isn't well rewarded enough to be a stranger to their child depending on what your partner does.

I was happy as a pre-med too. That didn't last.

Actually, I won't because I'm applying for college NOW. Depending on what I decide, I'll apply for the college of nursing. If I decide on doing pre-med, then I'll apply as a history major.

Thanks for replying, but I find it rude how people who like doing things at the last minute look down on those who actually like being prepared. So what, would you prefer I decide major the night before a college application is
due? Or how about after I graduate from college, after already obtaining a useless undergraduate degree?

From what I remember of college, you can start not knowing your major AT ALL. Some make you guess one just so they can hook you up with advising in that vein. As far as nursing vs pre-med bachelor's, yes, you do have to decide if you want liberal arts degree.

So yeah, I look down on someone not in college freaking out they have to have a major set in stone now. Use your brain, if you go to college do the courses that EVERYONE has to, and to hedge your bets, what science courses you do for bachelor's make sure it fits pre-reqs for MD (if you must, don't do MD) and RN. But you could do other liberal arts degree requirements and not touch too much science first year. Why? Start with easier classes not likely to f8ck with your GPA so you can first get the hang of college vs. HS. There IS a transition believe me. Thos allows you to explore more and do more shadowing before doing some of the hardest math and science there is in school, which is what pre-med IS.

Scope of potential practice is much larger as a physician and level of potential impact a physician can make on a patient's life is much greater than other healthcare professions. That is the only real difference between a physician and many of the other typical healthcare professionals in a hospital setting. Even Nurse Practitioner's and PA's can prescribe the majority of medicines a physician can, however their DEA license does not allow them to prescribe "scheduled" prescriptions according to the doctor I shadowed. Physicians receive MUCH MORE training on diagnosing and treating patients as well.

"Impact of patients life" is not the big difference between fields. You get 8 min face to face time on average as MD, RNs actually care for patients, meaning a fair degree of ass-wiping in hospital. Not for the faint of heart. And inpt/outpt you do a lot of grunt work and stress but have more time to revel in patient gratitude (or misery take your pick). And not being able to Rx scheduled drugs as NP or PA is actually a GOOD thing. You will not have to deal with the nightmare of being treated like a drug dealer by the opiate addicted.

Shadow doctors. If you find that you like what they do, it won't matter to you what negative things you read on the internet.

This is BS. You will likely like watching what they do because you've fastforwarded skipping the part where they spent at least 4 yrs undergrad trying to get straight A's, research, volunteering, trying to hit 60-80 hr work weeks to prove to adcom they can hack it, busting butt studying same amount of hours but greater volume of info in 4 years med school, (one person I hosted for med interview noted that with 4 hr exam stretch every other week giant exam takrn was like finals week every other week for 2 yrs) the constant mental abuse, inhumane treatment from the sadist workaholic docs in charge of you in med school, sleepless nights, medical self-neglect due to working mostly 6 days a week 80 hrs a week in the clinical years, accumulating $300K in debt, and then doing at least 3 years of the same but WORSE with more stress, ass-busting, maybe not even the field you want because whatever kind of doc you want to be, the competition doesn't end when you get to med school. And any hiccup along the way, even physical, can destroy your career. They say an MD opens a lot of doors, if you don't complete residency for any reason (like develop physical condition) MD is joked to stand for "Meaningless Degree." You see this doc who has survived all that and is now in practice, the person who does all that makes the practice they have look way easier than it is. Shadowing them you don't usually take call, work weekends, are sent home when they sit down to do hours of notes, and don't deal with all the administration bureaucracy they do. Or see their spouses and children who see little of them. Or juggle a bunch of things at once, and the money vs loans is not as sweet as you think it is.

You see the sexy "House" side of what they do, when it's more like "Scrubs" which you'll be told is the most accurate portrayal of medical culture. Only it's a lot less funny working for Dr. Cox and Dr. Kelso types IRL.

So yeah, when a patient says "Thanks Dr. Crayola," it's a great moment. The rest can make you want to die.

Don't do medicine to help people or make money or if you hate science. I've had so many people say they wanted to help people as a doc but hated science.

What do you think is being a doc? It's specifically using science to help people, or on people if you will. "Pumpkin, that's modern medicine, using advances to keep people alive long after they lost what made them people."

There's better ways to make money. Other more satisfying ways to help people. If you can't shut up about health topics maybe consider healthcare.

Hey girl I'm with you. Like literally the SAME boat. I wanted to do CRNA, I thought I was positive on it, but you are risking SO MUCH. everyone keeps telling me hospitals will not hire new grads into the ICU. so there's 2 years there and all crna programs are changing to DNP's which will be three years. By that point you've invested 9 years so why not go to medical school. However I can't afford medical school and all the physicians I shadowed told me not to go. Pa's don't get compensated for how much they do or else I'd go that route. So now I can't decide between PA, chancing crna, or being a miserable pharmacist. Isn't life fun? Oh and I have to submit my college applications by September 1st. 🙂

Again kiddos, you don't have to have your healthcare pick major chosen now. Go to college a year and figure it the f*ck out.

Yeah you're risking a lot going for MD, all of your 20s busting ass, all your relationships strained by how much you work, your entire financial future because of debt and if anything impacts your ability to work or do residency, mental breakdown from the cruelty of docs and the suffering, a lot of which is medically induced to the patients!

To me it's all about what you value in life and how much are things worth to you. I think the only valid reason to go MD instead of anything else in healthcare is the knowledge. Some people want to be "top dog" but that isn't a valid reason because you would never say that to an adcom. Helping people is a reason but you can help people in thousands of other ways. So it all comes down to what that knowledge is worth to you. It wasn't worth enough for me to sacrifice my 20s going to medical school and completing a residency. At the end of a day, it's just a job. I have other interests in life beside medicine.

Also, you can get into ICU right after nursing school. I've heard of many success stories. I don't think the chances are that slim. Getting into ICU as fresh nursing grad is easier than getting into medical school as fresh grad.

I don't know much about nursing in terms of their education, I know a good deal what their actual job looks like.

The first paragraph from the poster I quoted above was spot on.

Umm, the only thing hospitals care about is paying the person doing anesthesia as little as possible: so they will hire a bunch of CRNAs or AAs and a few anesthesiologists to oversee them if something happens put a blame on. So your scope of practice as a CRNA is not at all limited. Other docs are not immune, either.

Dumb post. CRNA scope of practice is definitely limited.

There are docs immune to midlevel takeover, mostly surgeons and radiologists and the like.

Yes, but I think you do have to have better planning skills if you go the medical profession route. I am certain I would have had conflicts with reproductive issues and med school work and residency. But thankfully, most people don't have the problem I had. I mean, honestly, it can get a bit tricky for the female that wants both medicine and children. Of course it is not so much an issue if everything goes normally. But things happen sometimes.

Otherwise, I feel like those that are really struggling in this regard are the married couples where both are in med school (or say the other is starting out in some equally demanding and less than optimally paying role) and they start a family. I mean I guess if they have the right family support or loads of money coming from somewhere for a great nanny to help them, then I guess that's fine. But how many people are in that situation? Many women do feel the compelling drive to begin reproduction before they are in their 30s. If I had waited after that, I wouldn't have been able to have my other children--just b/c of the quirky thing I have.

Putting off kids until mid 30s not a big deal. The poster above was spot on.

I worked with a couple of primary care physicians that put on their consults 'to be seen only by physician--not PA/NP'. That ticked off some NP...

Do not get me started. It should not have ticked off the NP, there's a saying "you don't know what you don't know" and this was never more true than for midlevel providers. That being said, they're better off than MDs. But no, there is plenty of **** I see them not know and do wrong all the time. They should only do the tasks they have been trained for and an MD has delegated. Period. The one thing that is true is that the MD has thee greatest amount of training. But don't do MD for that reason.

The fact that more than half of docs in surveys would not do it if they had a time machine, or even if they would, would tell their own children (and you always look out more for your own kids) not to get an MD should tell you something. Or even go into healthcare.

Just sign up for your gen ed requirements and show up to college day one. Geez.

Research other jobs. You can do better.

 

[NeuResurgens]

You have no idea, as you said, "way happier as a pre-med." "From what you can tell." Mom docs are going part time more because full-time is miserable and go ahead look it up avg hours for doc after residency is 60-70hrs, not much better than residency hrs but bigger paycheck. With inflation and current trends in physician reimbursement many are finding that their misery and time just isn't well rewarded enough to be a stranger to their child depending on what your partner does.

I was happy as a pre-med too. That didn't last.



From what I remember of college, you can start not knowing your major AT ALL. Some make you guess one just so they can hook you up with advising in that vein. As far as nursing vs pre-med bachelor's, yes, you do have to decide if you want liberal arts degree.

So yeah, I look down on someone not in college freaking out they have to have a major set in stone now. Use your brain, if you go to college do the courses that EVERYONE has to, and to hedge your bets, what science courses you do for bachelor's make sure it fits pre-reqs for MD (if you must, don't do MD) and RN. But you could do other liberal arts degree requirements and not touch too much science first year. Why? Start with easier classes not likely to f8ck with your GPA so you can first get the hang of college vs. HS. There IS a transition believe me. Thos allows you to explore more and do more shadowing before doing some of the hardest math and science there is in school, which is what pre-med IS.



"Impact of patients life" is not the big difference between fields. You get 8 min face to face time on average as MD, RNs actually care for patients, meaning a fair degree of ass-wiping in hospital. Not for the faint of heart. And inpt/outpt you do a lot of grunt work and stress but have more time to revel in patient gratitude (or misery take your pick). And not being able to Rx scheduled drugs as NP or PA is actually a GOOD thing. You will not have to deal with the nightmare of being treated like a drug dealer by the opiate addicted.



This is BS. You will likely like watching what they do because you've fastforwarded skipping the part where they spent at least 4 yrs undergrad trying to get straight A's, research, volunteering, trying to hit 60-80 hr work weeks to prove to adcom they can hack it, busting butt studying same amount of hours but greater volume of info in 4 years med school, (one person I hosted for med interview noted that with 4 hr exam stretch every other week giant exam takrn was like finals week every other week for 2 yrs) the constant mental abuse, inhumane treatment from the sadist workaholic docs in charge of you in med school, sleepless nights, medical self-neglect due to working mostly 6 days a week 80 hrs a week in the clinical years, accumulating $300K in debt, and then doing at least 3 years of the same but WORSE with more stress, ass-busting, maybe not even the field you want because whatever kind of doc you want to be, the competition doesn't end when you get to med school. And any hiccup along the way, even physical, can destroy your career. They say an MD opens a lot of doors, if you don't complete residency for any reason (like develop physical condition) MD is joked to stand for "Meaningless Degree." You see this doc who has survived all that and is now in practice, the person who does all that makes the practice they have look way easier than it is. Shadowing them you don't usually take call, work weekends, are sent home when they sit down to do hours of notes, and don't deal with all the administration bureaucracy they do. Or see their spouses and children who see little of them. Or juggle a bunch of things at once, and the money vs loans is not as sweet as you think it is.

You see the sexy "House" side of what they do, when it's more like "Scrubs" which you'll be told is the most accurate portrayal of medical culture. Only it's a lot less funny working for Dr. Cox and Dr. Kelso types IRL.

So yeah, when a patient says "Thanks Dr. Crayola," it's a great moment. The rest can make you want to die.

Don't do medicine to help people or make money or if you hate science. I've had so many people say they wanted to help people as a doc but hated science.

What do you think is being a doc? It's specifically using science to help people, or on people if you will. "Pumpkin, that's modern medicine, using advances to keep people alive long after they lost what made them people."

There's better ways to make money. Other more satisfying ways to help people. If you can't shut up about health topics maybe consider healthcare.



Again kiddos, you don't have to have your healthcare pick major chosen now. Go to college a year and figure it the f*ck out.

Yeah you're risking a lot going for MD, all of your 20s busting ass, all your relationships strained by how much you work, your entire financial future because of debt and if anything impacts your ability to work or do residency, mental breakdown from the cruelty of docs and the suffering, a lot of which is medically induced to the patients!



I don't know much about nursing in terms of their education, I know a good deal what their actual job looks like.

The first paragraph from the poster I quoted above was spot on.



Dumb post. CRNA scope of practice is definitely limited.

There are docs immune to midlevel takeover, mostly surgeons and radiologists and the like.



Putting off kids until mid 30s not a big deal. The poster above was spot on.



Do not get me started. It should not have ticked off the NP, there's a saying "you don't know what you don't know" and this was never more true than for midlevel providers. That being said, they're better off than MDs. But no, there is plenty of **** I see them not know and do wrong all the time. They should only do the tasks they have been trained for and an MD has delegated. Period. The one thing that is true is that the MD has thee greatest amount of training. But don't do MD for that reason.

The fact that more than half of docs in surveys would not do it if they had a time machine, or even if they would, would tell their own children (and you always look out more for your own kids) not to get an MD should tell you something. Or even go into healthcare.

Just sign up for your gen ed requirements and show up to college day one. Geez.

Research other jobs. You can do better.

Who ever said shadowing was like watching Scrubs? Did anyone mention that liking what doctors do "only" means helping people/hating science, etc.?

Shadowing is intended to help you see some of the problems doctors deal with and help you weigh them against the positives you experienced. It will show you if medicine certainly isn't for you and can also help you see if it certainly *is* for you. When I say that the negative things you read won't matter, it's implied that you discover that you're the type that "won't shut up about health topics."

Many of us have found that we love using science to treat people and are willing to wade through the bureaucratic BS nightmares that are required to get there.

 

[pageantry]

If I were still asking myself this question, I would test myself with three things:

1) Do I enjoy science classes and knowledge, especially about the human body and behavior?
2) Do I enjoy the clinical experience? (Even if you end up leaving the clinic, there are going to be some terrible years in there if you don't.)
3) Do I naturally veer toward leadership?

To me, that last one is critical. Because, honestly, leading is for the birds unless you can't help yourself. I have a feeling it's part of what makes so many doctors unhappy. Enjoying leadership will make the MD/DO degree a useful tool. Hating leadership will make it a burden.

This is all just speculative of course. Glad to be challenged, etc.

 

[AsianPersuasion]

Pas and doctors work well together because pas tend to understand their role well from working closely with med students and residents and attendings. Nurse practitioners get lectures from other nurses and clinical experience from other nurses. They don't have any idea what they're missing out on or how much they don't know which is why they have much less respect for our education.

But you're a nursing assistant. You don't work with doctors and you have little idea about how the icu is run. The doctor doesn't need to stay in house 24/7. They see the patient, make the diagnoses and write the plans which are implemented by the nurses and respiratory techs, etc. under parameters set by the doctors. The pa is not running the floor, most likely they are just putting in orders that the nurses need, making more minor decisions and responding to situations that arise.

And a midlevel should never do a consult. Ever.

You're right, I don't work directly with doctors and my knowledge is very limited. But after being there for 4 years now, with PA responding to minor decisions and situation like you said without direct supervision from the attending, and if that's not considered running the floor, I don't really know what would be.

 

[Pusheen]

You have no idea, as you said, "way happier as a pre-med." "From what you can tell." Mom docs are going part time more because full-time is miserable and go ahead look it up avg hours for doc after residency is 60-70hrs, not much better than residency hrs but bigger paycheck. With inflation and current trends in physician reimbursement many are finding that their misery and time just isn't well rewarded enough to be a stranger to their child depending on what your partner does.

I was happy as a pre-med too. That didn't last.

I'm really not sure what your point is. I think I know myself well enough to be an accurate judge of when I am happy and what I enjoy. I enjoy science, I enjoy medicine, I enjoy applying those things to real-life situations.

I'm not sure where all the doom and gloom is coming from. No one said becoming a doc is easy, and I think most of us know what we are getting into. And to me, and to many others, it is worth it.
Enough with the drama of never seeing your child, sinking into self-neglect, mental breakdowns, unpayable debt, ect, ect, ect. I'll defer that to the actual physicians on this forum. Most seem to find a great balance.

Anyway, you seem to just want to stir the pot, so I'll stop at that.

 

[IlDestriero]

Umm, the only thing hospitals care about is paying the person doing anesthesia as little as possible: so they will hire a bunch of CRNAs or AAs and a few anesthesiologists to oversee them if something happens put a blame on. So your scope of practice as a CRNA is not at all limited. Other docs are not immune, either.

explain what scope of practice is and what is limited

The scope of practice of a CRNA is extremely limited compared to NPs and PAs. You're, obviously, limited to anesthesia only.
Independent CRNA penetration into the anesthesia specialties is quite limited as well.

 

[Crayola227]

Who ever said shadowing was like watching Scrubs?

I didn't say shadowing was like watching Scrubs. I meant that shadowing is not the best way to decide if being a physician is for you. I referred to Scrubs to say that all of the dysfunction on that show, the condescension and frustration, is definitely waiting for you in medical training. That isn't to say people don't find it worth it, but studies show around half of docs practicing don't. I also have the hindsight of being a pre-med, shadowing, finishing med school, and starting residency. So don't try to give me some BS that I can't say that shadowing, while some of the best exposure you might get, is a pale shadow of the reality of practice. I don't know if your profile is accurate, but believe me last day even of MS4 was nothing like first day of internship. You will walk into a world nothing could have prepared you for. Even as an MS4 working side by side with residents, you really have no clue. Run my statement by other MDs such as myself and see what they make of it.

Did anyone mention that liking what doctors do "only" means helping people/hating science, etc.?

Didn't say that. Just making a point that someone who does not like/have an aptitude for science is going to be facing a helluva a lot of it not only in the preparation but in the performing of the job of being a physician or other healthcare worker. So that is a good first question to ask yourself in deciding if healthcare is the path you want for helping people.

Shadowing is intended to help you see some of the problems doctors deal with and help you weigh them against the positives you experienced. It will show you if medicine certainly isn't for you and can also help you see if it certainly *is* for you. When I say that the negative things you read won't matter, it's implied that you discover that you're the type that "won't shut up about health topics."

Many of us have found that we love using science to treat people and are willing to wade through the bureaucratic BS nightmares that are required to get there.

Addressed above re: what you may learn from shadowing.

As someone who is a physician, I think I have some perspective on the process.

If I were still asking myself this question, I would test myself with three things:

1) Do I enjoy science classes and knowledge, especially about the human body and behavior?
2) Do I enjoy the clinical experience? (Even if you end up leaving the clinic, there are going to be some terrible years in there if you don't.)
3) Do I naturally veer toward leadership?

To me, that last one is critical. Because, honestly, leading is for the birds unless you can't help yourself. I have a feeling it's part of what makes so many doctors unhappy. Enjoying leadership will make the MD/DO degree a useful tool. Hating leadership will make it a burden.

This is all just speculative of course. Glad to be challenged, etc.

Finally, some reasonable thinking on here that isnt just "I have no actual experience being a doc, but let's just cheerlead how much we have to worry about career path before day 1 of college. Part of a thoughtful process towards career choice isn't just shadowing the healthcare field but exploring your actual strengths/weaknesses, trying out different skills. Better off in another field and then coming to healthcare, than investing in a healthcare field and hating it. if you don't want to be the latter I suggest an open mind and broad education and experiences.

You're right, I don't work directly with doctors and my knowledge is very limited. But after being there for 4 years now, with PA responding to minor decisions and situation like you said without direct supervision from the attending, and if that's not considered running the floor, I don't really know what would be.

Exactly, you do not have the experience to actually know what running the floor actually would be. What you described is more like resident level work, and being a resident is not being an attending, or there wouldn't be residency.

I'm really not sure what your point is. I think I know myself well enough to be an accurate judge of when I am happy and what I enjoy. I enjoy science, I enjoy medicine, I enjoy applying those things to real-life situations.

I'm not sure where all the doom and gloom is coming from. No one said becoming a doc is easy, and I think most of us know what we are getting into. And to me, and to many others, it is worth it.
Enough with the drama of never seeing your child, sinking into self-neglect, mental breakdowns, unpayable debt, ect, ect, ect. I'll defer that to the actual physicians on this forum. Most seem to find a great balance.

Anyway, you seem to just want to stir the pot, so I'll stop at that.

You think you know, but the point is you don't.

What's the point of shadowing or even asking docs what they think if you all want to cling to what you think and inexperience.

I remember being told by a doc MS3 year that they would tell someone to avoid it, and thought that was crazy because I thought even at that point that I had enough experience to want to be a doc.

The fact you don't know where the doom and gloom is coming from just highlights my point. Other docs may not agree with the doom and gloom outlook for caveat reasons, but all of them would know where it was coming from or where that outlook was coming from even if they didn't feel the same way.

Whatever, you guys want to live in your bubble absent real experience (someone asked me what I would know about being a doc, hello, check out my profile info saying resident, and read my posts I write in way too much detail about intern life not to be for reals)

Sorry if I stirred the pot, please read my other posts if you would like perspective.

And my final advice to OP and others, keep your options open, study broadly, get broad life experience, and be willing to accept that being a doc is not what it once was and does not look much like what most of us wanted.

I wanted to spend more time treating patients, which would include face to face talking about their experiences, using my hands in physical exam, maybe holding their hands, and having time to be very thoughtful about treatment and being a teacher to them to increase their health literacy to empower them to improve their lives and health. I wanted a good living and good worklife balance for me and my family. But most docs spend more time on paperwork on a computer and are very saddened by the way the system and payment structure has pushed patient care to the side. They are seeing more and more patients in less time and making less and less with more and more paperwork.

I still love caring for people as an MD. But I hate the kind of doctor I am forced to be in our current system.

Buyer beware. You don't get a refund on those loans or years of your life.

 

[pageantry]

Finally, some reasonable thinking on here

You obviously missed out on my "skies on fire" post earlier today in non-trads. I'll cling to the validation anyway. No take-backsies.

 

[Crayola227]

You obviously missed out on my "skies on fire" post earlier today in non-trads. I'll cling to the validation anyway. No take-backsies.

I would check it out but you restrict your profile so I'm having a hard time checking out your post.

And I didn't blanket endorse your views, just agreed with what you said are the foods for thoughts re: should I consider healthcare.

 

[pageantry]

I would check it out but you restrict your profile so I'm having a hard time checking out your post.

And I didn't blanket endorse your views, just agreed with what you said are the foods for thoughts re: should I consider healthcare.

No you definitely just endorsed my entire life and I feel grrrreat!
Jk. I feel tired. :/

 

[Psai]

You're right, I don't work directly with doctors and my knowledge is very limited. But after being there for 4 years now, with PA responding to minor decisions and situation like you said without direct supervision from the attending, and if that's not considered running the floor, I don't really know what would be.

Yes you're right when you say you don't really know what would be. Running the unit and babysitting are not the same thing. You're not qualified to make any judgment like that

 

[MyNameWasUsed]

I have seen that sentence repeated so often here and I am not even sure what it means... Sure that med students in their 20s have more time constraint than most other people, but you are not sacrificing your 20s because you are in med school... I am a non trad student and I have noticed my classmates that are in their 20s doing the same thing that I did when I was in my 20s, except that they are in med school and I was working. A lot of them party; they go to the beach, to the gym, and they travel because they can afford it (many are from upper middle class families)....I am in MS2; so maybe things will be different in MS3/MS4 and residency...

I guess sacrifice is based on perspective then. If you love medicine it will never be one. I'm just not that passionate about medicine. I don't want to go to school anymore TBH....sighhhh =/

 

[Crayola227]

I'm passionate about medicine which is why it ruined my life and I still love it and you find me writing essays about its practice on here.

Whoever said as an MS2 that it hasn't taken over your life.... yeah, MS3/4 & residency will teach you what sacrifice is.

 

[W19]

@MyNameWasUsed That's fair! I can tell you that based on invites that I got from some of my classmates and from our class Facebook page, I feel like a lot of these people are more socially active than the typical 20+ year old... That could be because our school is a low rank US school 😛...

 

[W19]

I'm passionate about medicine which is why it ruined my life and I still love it and you find me writing essays about its practice on here.

Whoever said as an MS2 that it hasn't taken over your life.... yeah, MS3/4 & residency will teach you what sacrifice is.

Like I said, I don't know too much about MS3/MS4, I have a good friend who just started MS4 and he did not think MS3 was crazy... Then again, he is very lay back individual whose motto is: 'Things could always be worst'.... I guess it's all about perspective.

 

[acleidigh]

gain kiddos, you don't have to have your healthcare pick major chosen now. Go to college a year and figure it the f*ck out.

unfortuntely, this is not prevalent anymore. You can't just "do a year" as most are looking into 5 year direct entry PA programs or 7/8 direct year MD programs. That's why it is very stressful for the OP and myself.

 

[TheUPSIDEdown]

MD, CRNA, N.P, or P.A?

If you've got the stats I would apply to those 6 year MD programs straight out of high school. Many pros and cons, but in the long run I see more Pros.

Biggest con would be you're missing any potential fun in your college years; arguably the most fun you'll ever have. Biggest pro is you're finished with medical school before your body can decide it's too stressed and make you lose all your hair -- Winning.

 

[getdown]

You have no idea, as you said, "way happier as a pre-med." "From what you can tell." Mom docs are going part time more because full-time is miserable and go ahead look it up avg hours for doc after residency is 60-70hrs, not much better than residency hrs but bigger paycheck. With inflation and current trends in physician reimbursement many are finding that their misery and time just isn't well rewarded enough to be a stranger to their child depending on what your partner does.

I was happy as a pre-med too. That didn't last.



From what I remember of college, you can start not knowing your major AT ALL. Some make you guess one just so they can hook you up with advising in that vein. As far as nursing vs pre-med bachelor's, yes, you do have to decide if you want liberal arts degree.

So yeah, I look down on someone not in college freaking out they have to have a major set in stone now. Use your brain, if you go to college do the courses that EVERYONE has to, and to hedge your bets, what science courses you do for bachelor's make sure it fits pre-reqs for MD (if you must, don't do MD) and RN. But you could do other liberal arts degree requirements and not touch too much science first year. Why? Start with easier classes not likely to f8ck with your GPA so you can first get the hang of college vs. HS. There IS a transition believe me. Thos allows you to explore more and do more shadowing before doing some of the hardest math and science there is in school, which is what pre-med IS.



"Impact of patients life" is not the big difference between fields. You get 8 min face to face time on average as MD, RNs actually care for patients, meaning a fair degree of ass-wiping in hospital. Not for the faint of heart. And inpt/outpt you do a lot of grunt work and stress but have more time to revel in patient gratitude (or misery take your pick). And not being able to Rx scheduled drugs as NP or PA is actually a GOOD thing. You will not have to deal with the nightmare of being treated like a drug dealer by the opiate addicted.



This is BS. You will likely like watching what they do because you've fastforwarded skipping the part where they spent at least 4 yrs undergrad trying to get straight A's, research, volunteering, trying to hit 60-80 hr work weeks to prove to adcom they can hack it, busting butt studying same amount of hours but greater volume of info in 4 years med school, (one person I hosted for med interview noted that with 4 hr exam stretch every other week giant exam takrn was like finals week every other week for 2 yrs) the constant mental abuse, inhumane treatment from the sadist workaholic docs in charge of you in med school, sleepless nights, medical self-neglect due to working mostly 6 days a week 80 hrs a week in the clinical years, accumulating $300K in debt, and then doing at least 3 years of the same but WORSE with more stress, ass-busting, maybe not even the field you want because whatever kind of doc you want to be, the competition doesn't end when you get to med school. And any hiccup along the way, even physical, can destroy your career. They say an MD opens a lot of doors, if you don't complete residency for any reason (like develop physical condition) MD is joked to stand for "Meaningless Degree." You see this doc who has survived all that and is now in practice, the person who does all that makes the practice they have look way easier than it is. Shadowing them you don't usually take call, work weekends, are sent home when they sit down to do hours of notes, and don't deal with all the administration bureaucracy they do. Or see their spouses and children who see little of them. Or juggle a bunch of things at once, and the money vs loans is not as sweet as you think it is.

You see the sexy "House" side of what they do, when it's more like "Scrubs" which you'll be told is the most accurate portrayal of medical culture. Only it's a lot less funny working for Dr. Cox and Dr. Kelso types IRL.

So yeah, when a patient says "Thanks Dr. Crayola," it's a great moment. The rest can make you want to die.

Don't do medicine to help people or make money or if you hate science. I've had so many people say they wanted to help people as a doc but hated science.

What do you think is being a doc? It's specifically using science to help people, or on people if you will. "Pumpkin, that's modern medicine, using advances to keep people alive long after they lost what made them people."

There's better ways to make money. Other more satisfying ways to help people. If you can't shut up about health topics maybe consider healthcare.



Again kiddos, you don't have to have your healthcare pick major chosen now. Go to college a year and figure it the f*ck out.

Yeah you're risking a lot going for MD, all of your 20s busting ass, all your relationships strained by how much you work, your entire financial future because of debt and if anything impacts your ability to work or do residency, mental breakdown from the cruelty of docs and the suffering, a lot of which is medically induced to the patients!



I don't know much about nursing in terms of their education, I know a good deal what their actual job looks like.

The first paragraph from the poster I quoted above was spot on.



Dumb post. CRNA scope of practice is definitely limited.

There are docs immune to midlevel takeover, mostly surgeons and radiologists and the like.



Putting off kids until mid 30s not a big deal. The poster above was spot on.



Do not get me started. It should not have ticked off the NP, there's a saying "you don't know what you don't know" and this was never more true than for midlevel providers. That being said, they're better off than MDs. But no, there is plenty of **** I see them not know and do wrong all the time. They should only do the tasks they have been trained for and an MD has delegated. Period. The one thing that is true is that the MD has thee greatest amount of training. But don't do MD for that reason.

The fact that more than half of docs in surveys would not do it if they had a time machine, or even if they would, would tell their own children (and you always look out more for your own kids) not to get an MD should tell you something. Or even go into healthcare.

Just sign up for your gen ed requirements and show up to college day one. Geez.

Research other jobs. You can do better.

http://www.somegif.com/gifs/13924742111596534766.GIF

I'm in my 3rd year of residency and after reading this whole damned thread I can't agree more or have said it better. It was very painful reading some of the things said here.

 

[Crayola227]

unfortuntely, this is not prevalent anymore. You can't just "do a year" as most are looking into 5 year direct entry PA programs or 7/8 direct year MD programs. That's why it is very stressful for the OP and myself.

Most? Really? I'm surprised. Does anyone have any numbers to back this up?

There were very few MD programs like that back when I applied, which was not long ago/ancient times depending how you look at it.

Malcom Gladwell is a well respected writer who has talked about how society thinks it will do the most to capitalize on human talent by getting putting junior high kids onto career tracks and 18 yr old kids right into med school like some countries, but argues that this does more of a disservice than a service to society.

I'm sorry if you guys who haven't graduated HS yet are having this kind of pressure.

If there's any way to explore things more or tread water in college gen ed, I hope you can.

I thought I would be an English teacher when I was your age. It wasn't until university requirements forced me that I took math and science and discovered an aptitude for that. I don't think I would have learned Spanish as a second language were it not for 2 yr liberal arts degree requirement that set me on my way, I continued to study with it after that.

People want to do away with the liberal arts degree and I think we are just cheating everyone. I'm sorry if you're being cheated out of the opportunity to grow as young adults and learners.

 

[Crayola227]

http://www.somegif.com/gifs/13924742111596534766.GIF

I'm in my 3rd year of residency and after reading this whole damned thread I can't agree more or have said it better. It was very painful reading some of the things said here.

Thanks for that. I was getting painted as a meanie. Most people I know who are really dissatisfied with medicine, or even still love it despite the problems, started out feeling like the people on this thread. And the docs I know who hate it for what it's become still love the dream. I do. It takes a lot for the idealism to go, and it's not because we weren't dreamers. To this day, I still don't know why medicine can't be what we want and know it should be, but it just isn't. Somehow I thought I could avoid the pitfalls but they catch up. Dr. Wible (I refer y'all to look her up) does a good job documenting the failures of medicine, and claims she's figured out how to live the dream. I don't know. I'll be calling her one day soon.

The learning goes both ways. There's high school kids getting advice from med schoolers, and what they need are docs to drop in here. And they're telling me that they can't just do a year of college anymore. So I can't claim to be down with what the kids are dealing with these days. So I'm glad to know.

I just hope they'll take heed of the good and the bad, and know that one doesn't undo the other, they both exist and it's hard to know if they're both worth it.

I'm really sad if they honestly don't get the chance to explore career paths.

Also kids, know that there are some who know their specialty as soon as they are exposed to it, but the majority of people feel like 3rd yr is not a good exposure to pick a specialty from.

Like war, who knows who's going to **** themselves until the bomb goes off?

 

[getdown]

Thanks for that. I was getting painted as a meanie. Most people I know who are really dissatisfied with medicine, or even still love it despite the problems, started out feeling like the people on this thread. And the docs I know who hate it for what it's become still love the dream. I do. It takes a lot for the idealism to go, and it's not because we weren't dreamers. To this day, I still don't know why medicine can't be what we want and know it should be, but it just isn't. Somehow I thought I could avoid the pitfalls but they catch up. Dr. Wible (I refer y'all to look her up) does a good job documenting the failures of medicine, and claims she's figured out how to live the dream. I don't know. I'll be calling her one day soon.

The learning goes both ways. There's high school kids getting advice from med schoolers, and what they need are docs to drop in here. And they're telling me that they can't just do a year of college anymore. So I can't claim to be down with what the kids are dealing with these days. So I'm glad to know.

I just hope they'll take heed of the good and the bad, and know that one doesn't undo the other, they both exist and it's hard to know if they're both worth it.

I'm really sad if they honestly don't get the chance to explore career paths.

Also kids, know that there are some who know their specialty as soon as they are exposed to it, but the majority of people feel like 3rd yr is not a good exposure to pick a specialty from.

Like war, who knows who's going to **** themselves until the bomb goes off?

Haha no worries Crayola. You don't have to thank me. Any resident going through the process we're going through would say the same thing. We residents have to stick together.

But you're right. I definitely have become less idealistic as the years and training has beaten it out of me. It's always so surprising to see and talk to these kids who are shadowing or doing a summer program about their experiences and why they want to be doctors. They always look so surprised when I give them the low down on how things work. They just don't have a ****ing clue and why should they? No one in their right mind would willingly subject themselves to this if they didn't have a true passion for it. On the other hand, I feel as residents this is our time when we're the lowest. We work long hours, paid poorly, are tired, stressed, constantly under-appreciated by attendings, nurses and patients and we have to take it because we're "training". I feel that we will have more of that idealism return once done with residency.

The one thing I can definitely say that has made medicine worse is the business of medicine. When you have MBAs running the hospitals looking only at the bottom line there will undoubtedly be areas that will suffer and that is patient care and resident education. I want to spend time knowing the patients and their families but when you're alone in the SICU taking care of 20-30 sick as **** patients you don't have that luxury. I want to care more but with the notes I have to write, pages from nurses asking for orders, calls from pharmacy about correcting my orders and putting out little fires here and there I barely have enough time to even drink water. And people ask why residents get so jaded.

 

[jl lin]

You have no idea, as you said, "way happier as a pre-med." "From what you can tell." Mom docs are going part time more because full-time is miserable and go ahead look it up avg hours for doc after residency is 60-70hrs, not much better than residency hrs but bigger paycheck. With inflation and current trends in physician reimbursement many are finding that their misery and time just isn't well rewarded enough to be a stranger to their child depending on what your partner does.

I was happy as a pre-med too. That didn't last.



From what I remember of college, you can start not knowing your major AT ALL. Some make you guess one just so they can hook you up with advising in that vein. As far as nursing vs pre-med bachelor's, yes, you do have to decide if you want liberal arts degree.

So yeah, I look down on someone not in college freaking out they have to have a major set in stone now. Use your brain, if you go to college do the courses that EVERYONE has to, and to hedge your bets, what science courses you do for bachelor's make sure it fits pre-reqs for MD (if you must, don't do MD) and RN. But you could do other liberal arts degree requirements and not touch too much science first year. Why? Start with easier classes not likely to f8ck with your GPA so you can first get the hang of college vs. HS. There IS a transition believe me. Thos allows you to explore more and do more shadowing before doing some of the hardest math and science there is in school, which is what pre-med IS.



"Impact of patients life" is not the big difference between fields. You get 8 min face to face time on average as MD, RNs actually care for patients, meaning a fair degree of ass-wiping in hospital. Not for the faint of heart. And inpt/outpt you do a lot of grunt work and stress but have more time to revel in patient gratitude (or misery take your pick). And not being able to Rx scheduled drugs as NP or PA is actually a GOOD thing. You will not have to deal with the nightmare of being treated like a drug dealer by the opiate addicted.



This is BS. You will likely like watching what they do because you've fastforwarded skipping the part where they spent at least 4 yrs undergrad trying to get straight A's, research, volunteering, trying to hit 60-80 hr work weeks to prove to adcom they can hack it, busting butt studying same amount of hours but greater volume of info in 4 years med school, (one person I hosted for med interview noted that with 4 hr exam stretch every other week giant exam takrn was like finals week every other week for 2 yrs) the constant mental abuse, inhumane treatment from the sadist workaholic docs in charge of you in med school, sleepless nights, medical self-neglect due to working mostly 6 days a week 80 hrs a week in the clinical years, accumulating $300K in debt, and then doing at least 3 years of the same but WORSE with more stress, ass-busting, maybe not even the field you want because whatever kind of doc you want to be, the competition doesn't end when you get to med school. And any hiccup along the way, even physical, can destroy your career. They say an MD opens a lot of doors, if you don't complete residency for any reason (like develop physical condition) MD is joked to stand for "Meaningless Degree." You see this doc who has survived all that and is now in practice, the person who does all that makes the practice they have look way easier than it is. Shadowing them you don't usually take call, work weekends, are sent home when they sit down to do hours of notes, and don't deal with all the administration bureaucracy they do. Or see their spouses and children who see little of them. Or juggle a bunch of things at once, and the money vs loans is not as sweet as you think it is.

You see the sexy "House" side of what they do, when it's more like "Scrubs" which you'll be told is the most accurate portrayal of medical culture. Only it's a lot less funny working for Dr. Cox and Dr. Kelso types IRL.

So yeah, when a patient says "Thanks Dr. Crayola," it's a great moment. The rest can make you want to die.

Don't do medicine to help people or make money or if you hate science. I've had so many people say they wanted to help people as a doc but hated science.

What do you think is being a doc? It's specifically using science to help people, or on people if you will. "Pumpkin, that's modern medicine, using advances to keep people alive long after they lost what made them people."

There's better ways to make money. Other more satisfying ways to help people. If you can't shut up about health topics maybe consider healthcare.



Again kiddos, you don't have to have your healthcare pick major chosen now. Go to college a year and figure it the f*ck out.

Yeah you're risking a lot going for MD, all of your 20s busting ass, all your relationships strained by how much you work, your entire financial future because of debt and if anything impacts your ability to work or do residency, mental breakdown from the cruelty of docs and the suffering, a lot of which is medically induced to the patients!



I don't know much about nursing in terms of their education, I know a good deal what their actual job looks like.

The first paragraph from the poster I quoted above was spot on.



Dumb post. CRNA scope of practice is definitely limited.

There are docs immune to midlevel takeover, mostly surgeons and radiologists and the like.



Putting off kids until mid 30s not a big deal. The poster above was spot on.



Do not get me started. It should not have ticked off the NP, there's a saying "you don't know what you don't know" and this was never more true than for midlevel providers. That being said, they're better off than MDs. But no, there is plenty of **** I see them not know and do wrong all the time. They should only do the tasks they have been trained for and an MD has delegated. Period. The one thing that is true is that the MD has thee greatest amount of training. But don't do MD for that reason.

The fact that more than half of docs in surveys would not do it if they had a time machine, or even if they would, would tell their own children (and you always look out more for your own kids) not to get an MD should tell you something. Or even go into healthcare.

Just sign up for your gen ed requirements and show up to college day one. Geez.

Research other jobs. You can do better.

Hi, I said that in my reply--making a special note for those fewer folks like me that had a problem. Had I waited, I wouldn't have been able to have them for a few reasons. For one, I went into severe POF at 32 years of age. 2. Other options for fertility would have been highly problematic given the underlying disorder that caused the POF in the first place.


Some researchers believe that fertility peaks as early as a woman's late 20s, and there's a consensus that by her early 30s, both the quantity and the quality of her eggs have begun to decline.
In general, women >35 are even considered advanced maternal age. Sure, much has changed, but overall stats favor becoming pregnant before 30--actually 27 was the number I read.

So, my point was that most women should be fine; but that there are those that well may not be--and you don't necessarily know if you will have a problem until you are trying. It's fair, then, to say that women going into medicine might consider the delay or stresses involved with clinical MS years and residency/fellowship--depending. I mean for those that feel they will want to become moms. If the desire is there, it will cross your mind. On the average, MOST will not have a problem, as you say. OTOH, you never know. Reproduction and being a mom is a part of being a woman--at least for many, if not most women.

 

[Crayola227]

Hi, I said that in my reply--making a special note for those fewer folks like me that had a problem. Had I waited, I wouldn't have been able to have them for a few reasons. For one, I went into severe POF at 32 years of age. 2. Other options for fertility would have been highly problematic given the underlying disorder that caused the POF in the first place.


Some researchers believe that fertility peaks as early as a woman's late 20s, and there's a consensus that by her early 30s, both the quantity and the quality of her eggs have begun to decline.
In general, women >35 are even considered advanced maternal age. Sure, much has changed, but overall stats favor becoming pregnant before 30--actually 27 was the number I read.

So, my point was that most women should be fine; but that there are those that well may not be--and you don't necessarily know if you will have a problem until you are trying. It's fair, then, to say that women going into medicine might consider the delay or stresses involved with clinical MS years and residency/fellowship--depending. I mean for those that feel they will want to become moms. If the desire is there, it will cross your mind. On the average, MOST will not have a problem, as you say. OTOH, you never know. Reproduction and being a mom is a part of being a woman--at least for many, if not most women.

I agree with everything you said.

I just mean it's reasonable, not necessarily the safest bet, to go to med school and have kids in your 30s.

You have to weigh risks/benefits. Fertility in mom is one predictor. The women on both sides of my family have healthy kids into their late 30s. My relative that put it off to 40 had to do all kinds of medical intervention but ended up with a healthy kid.

At the same time, the trouble she had to go through getting a kid.... she didn't want to adopt either.

So like anything, you have to decide what's most important to you, how you want to prioritize and time things, how much risk you can tolerate, what you're willing to give up, etc etc.

Last I saw 1/4 women after 30 are infertile, but medically speaking that means no preggo after 1 year of frequent unprotected intercourse. I find that terrifying, but not necessarily insurmountable. Then you have to read the studies on outcomes after that. And each person is unique.

If you want bio kids out of your own womb or life just isn't worth living, and you don't want to adopt, there's no better time as a woman to have them than now (yes there's caveats to that). Sad fact of biology.

I love being a woman but birthing, breastfeeding, and medical career is such an infuriating difficult mix I really hate that about being a woman in medicine.

Anyway, you can have kids in your 30s usually, but not always. This is what most female docs end up doing, for what that's worth, which miight be nothing.

As you point out, you could end up with empty arms.

Everything in life is a bet. Pregnancy/childbirth could kill you. So could a career in medicine.

**** it, if I could go back in time I would have just been housewife with 2 kids, maybe a high school teacher if I had to work. And I don't say that because I don't love medicine or being a doctor.

 

[jl lin]

I agree with everything you said.

I just mean it's reasonable, not necessarily the safest bet, to go to med school and have kids in your 30s.

You have to weigh risks/benefits. Fertility in mom is one predictor. The women on both sides of my family have healthy kids into their late 30s. My relative that put it off to 40 had to do all kinds of medical intervention but ended up with a healthy kid.

At the same time, the trouble she had to go through getting a kid.... she didn't want to adopt either.

So like anything, you have to decide what's most important to you, how you want to prioritize and time things, how much risk you can tolerate, what you're willing to give up, etc etc.

Last I saw 1/4 women after 30 are infertile, but medically speaking that means no preggo after 1 year of frequent unprotected intercourse. I find that terrifying, but not necessarily insurmountable. Then you have to read the studies on outcomes after that. And each person is unique.

If you want bio kids out of your own womb or life just isn't worth living, and you don't want to adopt, there's no better time as a woman to have them than now (yes there's caveats to that). Sad fact of biology.

I love being a woman but birthing, breastfeeding, and medical career is such an infuriating difficult mix I really hate that about being a woman in medicine.

Anyway, you can have kids in your 30s usually, but not always. This is what most female docs end up doing, for what that's worth, which miight be nothing.

As you point out, you could end up with empty arms.

Everything in life is a bet. Pregnancy/childbirth could kill you. So could a career in medicine.

**** it, if I could go back in time I would have just been housewife with 2 kids, maybe a high school teacher if I had to work. And I don't say that because I don't love medicine or being a doctor.

Yes. I hear you. Initially, my problem wasn't fertility. I always said that my husband could mail me a letter, and I'd get pregnant. It's just that this autoimmune issue cause me to lose many pregnancies; but luckily we all put our heads together and figured it out. At that time, I really didn't think medicine would be something I would want to shoot for, b/c there was just so much going on in my life, and being a nurse with everything else was more than enough at that time. Interestingly, the last one was planned, but turned out to be a blessing. He's a sweet kid. He gave the others someone an adorable sibling, and I really appreciated the fact that I got pregnant, was high risk with him, and then,BOOM. Ovaries shut down completely. I am so thankful for all my children--even when life is challenging--or they are challenging. Life can be so funny. But more and more woman are having children after 30. So, it is definitely doable. I have no real issues with adoption either. It's just that out of all my children/pregnancies, only one was intently planned--lol, and that was the girl. Hahaha. Irony is she is such a challenging cookie; but she is beautiful and great--just very INTENSE. Thank God the last one is chill.

 

[acleidigh]

@Crayola227 may I ask what you ended up majoring in/current job.

 

[MySpirit]

It shouldn't even have to be said. You order a consult to obtain an expert opinion

You have a lot to learn. PAs work for our physician group. They consult a lot, and we trust them.

 

[Crayola227]

@Crayola227 may I ask what you ended up majoring in/current job.

I can tell you I had a "hard" science major (as opposed to the "soft" sciences) and I am an MD.

I tend to recommend people get a major in something that would be best for getting their 2nd choice of job, if choice 1 was a healthcare job. I don't tell people to just "study what you love." Use your education to make sure you can get a job you want/can stand. Minor in basketweaving if that makes you happy.

My major is very employable out of college, or to get more education out of, or to use for teaching since high school teaching just means another year of masters to teach something related to your major, and hard science high school subject teachers are in greater demand.

This was my approach.

Others major in astrozoology because they love it and they either make that work for a job or they don't care their job isn't related they just got a bachelor's for whatever reasons.

Just my life and approach. I wanted to be an astronaut, doctor, ballerina, singer, actress, physics genius, teacher, zookeeper, poet, writer, pianist, and, well, as life went on I feel like I narrowed things down and became pragmatic. I wanted a major that I liked, did well in, could use to get a job out of college. You can do that and take all your pre-med pre-health classes in my day, it just took more time and credits and loans to do it. If I had to go back I just would have done it faster maybe.

Others live life freer and more happily, different strokes and folks