CAP paints rosy job market

[Unty]

CAP paints rosy picture of pathology jobs

CAP leaders tackled workforce issues and pessimistic sentiment among residents about the outlook for employment in pathology during a panel at the meeting, which runs from September 21-25 at the Gaylord Palms Resort and Convention Center in Kissimmee, FL, near Orlando.

www.labpulse.com

However, results from CAP's own research paint a positive picture of the market. In a survey conducted in 2018 that reflects data acquired in 2017, 2,709 practice leaders and managers were canvassed and 346 responded, including 253 who addressed questions about the job market in particular.

Approximately 45% said they were hiring pathologists, and, of these, half were hiring for more than one position. Respondents reported a total of 249 planned open positions and 60 that were being eliminated, for a net gain of 189.

"At least among these practices, the job market seems to be growing," said David Gross, PhD, an economist and director of CAP's Policy Roundtable.

Wait....2709 practice leaders were canvassed but only 346 RESPONDED? That’s a 13% response rate. CAP you guys can do better than that.

And out of the 346 respondents, only 45% said they were hiring pathologists. 189 net gain in jobs with a total of 600 pathologists entering the workforce every year? Isn’t that a surplus in pathologists or am I wrong? 189 net gain to the existing jobs from the previous year?

There have been reports of a lack of job opportunities, and these have been widely publicized on social media, but these reports are based on small, flawed, and misinterpreted datasets, he said. Nevertheless, he fears that the pessimistic outlook on jobs among residents has potential to damage the profession.
"Be careful what you say because you may be believed," he said. "I take that to heart myself."

Pathology work will still need to be done -- but there is a risk that in the future it may be done by people who are not skilled pathologists with unique qualifications, he warned. Black-Schaffer suggested that it is "scary" to think of how pathologists and the healthcare services that pathologists provide may be degraded if the workforce is not replenished.”

What do you mean by degraded? LOL.

You mean all the residency spots currently being filled by Weak candidates because of the low barrier to entry of this profession? The field is not competitive because of the oversupply of training programs. Cut the number of spots and protect our field if you don’t want it to get degraded.

“Not skilled pathologists with unique qualifications”-so trainees currently graduating from residency programs aren’t considered skilled enough for you? They are able to match into a pathology program and finish training but aren’t considered skilled? What you really mean are candidates, who probably wouldn’t have matched if the field was competitive to get into, are getting in and joining the workforce.

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[pathslides]

CAP has become such a garbage organization with out of touch leadership. Why would anyone actually pay money from their own pockets to be a member. Who uses a 13% response rate to make a determination of the job market? CAP leadership does absolutely nothing good for this profession.

 

[Alteran]

According to the paper (assuming I'm reading it correctly) there were 249 positions open for 2017-2018. The NRMP match data for 2019 has 569 matched positions for pathology this year. There are about 2,500 pathology residents in the US currently, and about 500 are eligible to go into the workforce every year. By no stretch am I a mathematician, but it seems we have a mismatch here......

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

I like this quote because he is using a small dataset.

"There have been reports of a lack of job opportunities, and these have been widely publicized on social media, but these reports are based on small, flawed, and misinterpreted datasets, he said. Nevertheless, he fears that the pessimistic outlook on jobs among residents has potential to damage the profession."

Trying to figure out the pathology job market is virtually impossible since most jobs are word of mouth and aren't posted. CAP better be offering workshops in how to make friends and network (without being annoying).

 

[rirriri]

I rarely agree with CAP but I agree now. The job market has been great where I live for the residents and fellows I’ve worked with. I definitely see growth...

 

[Unty]

I rarely agree with CAP but I agree now. The job market has been great where I live for the residents and fellows I’ve worked with. I definitely see growth...

Which state are you in? Also where are the people you work with been finding their jobs? Pathoutlines, word of mouth? Residents are doing how many fellowships?

 

[tiredguy]

According to the paper (assuming I'm reading it correctly) there were 249 positions open for 2017-2018. The NRMP match data for 2019 has 569 matched positions for pathology this year. There are about 2,500 pathology residents in the US currently, and about 500 are eligible to go into the workforce every year. By no stretch am I a mathematician, but it seems we have a mismatch here......

The 249 positions are from the 13% of respondents, from my understanding. We don't know whether the 87% of people who didn't respond are hiring. We also don't know whether 2,709 people canvassed are representative of all the people who might be hiring a pathologist. We also don't know how many of these jobs are considered "desirable" to those who are looking for jobs or whether all the pathologists entering the job market are qualified for those jobs.

 

[Med Director New England]

This again....med students do your own due diligence. Talk to path trainees near the end of training who are looking for jobs Or recent hires about their views on the job market.

Also consider the fact that no one here who is a practicing pathologist who opines that the job market is bad has anything to gain by saying this (I.e no reason to lie).

I am of the view that we are overtraining and this has already adversely effected the field. I don’t think me coming here will suddenly cause the ABP/ACGME to reduce the # of spots. I only come on here to let folks know what is happening so they can make the best career decision.

I do think their is data that is known that the ABP ought to share which indirectly gets at the demand for pathologists -which is the average number of fellowships current residents are doing now compared to 5,10,and 15 yrs ago. They have this data and interestingly have never publicized it. The session by cAP in Orlando would havebeen an ideal time to share this.

 

[y2k_free_radical]

I rarely agree with CAP but I agree now. The job market has been great where I live for the residents and fellows I’ve worked with. I definitely see growth...

It is obvious ACADEMIC PATHOLOGY and COMMUNITY PATHOLOGY are two different universes,often in conflict

 

[y2k_free_radical]

CAP paints rosy picture of pathology jobs

CAP leaders tackled workforce issues and pessimistic sentiment among residents about the outlook for employment in pathology during a panel at the meeting, which runs from September 21-25 at the Gaylord Palms Resort and Convention Center in Kissimmee, FL, near Orlando.

www.labpulse.com

However, results from CAP's own research paint a positive picture of the market. In a survey conducted in 2018 that reflects data acquired in 2017, 2,709 practice leaders and managers were canvassed and 346 responded, including 253 who addressed questions about the job market in particular.

Approximately 45% said they were hiring pathologists, and, of these, half were hiring for more than one position. Respondents reported a total of 249 planned open positions and 60 that were being eliminated, for a net gain of 189.

"At least among these practices, the job market seems to be growing," said David Gross, PhD, an economist and director of CAP's Policy Roundtable.

Wait....2709 practice leaders were canvassed but only 346 RESPONDED? That’s a 13% response rate. CAP you guys can do better than that.

And out of the 346 respondents, only 45% said they were hiring pathologists. 189 net gain in jobs with a total of 600 pathologists entering the workforce every year? Isn’t that a surplus in pathologists or am I wrong? 189 net gain to the existing jobs from the previous year?

There have been reports of a lack of job opportunities, and these have been widely publicized on social media, but these reports are based on small, flawed, and misinterpreted datasets, he said. Nevertheless, he fears that the pessimistic outlook on jobs among residents has potential to damage the profession.
"Be careful what you say because you may be believed," he said. "I take that to heart myself."

Pathology work will still need to be done -- but there is a risk that in the future it may be done by people who are not skilled pathologists with unique qualifications, he warned. Black-Schaffer suggested that it is "scary" to think of how pathologists and the healthcare services that pathologists provide may be degraded if the workforce is not replenished.”

What do you mean by degraded? LOL.

You mean all the residency spots currently being filled by Weak candidates because of the low barrier to entry of this profession? The field is not competitive because of the oversupply of training programs. Cut the number of spots and protect our field if you don’t want it to get degraded.

“Not skilled pathologists with unique qualifications”-so trainees currently graduating from residency programs aren’t considered skilled enough for you? They are able to match into a pathology program and finish training but aren’t considered skilled? What you really mean are candidates, who probably wouldn’t have matched if the field was competitive to get into, are getting in and joining the workforce.

If the job market is so strong why do some of us give up 50%-70% of our professional fee for work,face continual low balling from insurance companies, and get a relative pittance for laboratory directorship or locum tenens and why are CAP PROTESTS IGNORED ????

 

[PathDoctor]

MDA (Medical Doctor Associates) has been a long time partner with a Pathology group in Georgia and they are looking for help in the summer. This is NOT a solo practice and they are growing, they need help initially from June 25 - Aug 31. Ideally, if you can do that whole time, great, but let me know what parts you can do if you can't. It does take around 30-45 days to credential, and this has been a popular position for us in the past. We have had many Pathologists work here and the typical rate is $750 per day and $125/hour OT, but don't let the rate deter you, if you want me to present you at a higher offer, we can. Must be AP/CP Board Certified and licensed in GA. I am happy to provide all of the practice details.

Pathology Help in Georgia in Rome, Georgia at Cross Country Locums · DocCafe

Apply for Pathology Physician jobs in Rome, Georgia on DocCafe

www.doccafe.com

The per diem rates for locum tenens physicians paid by healthcare facilities and physician practices to locum tenens agencies vary, but surgical and diagnostic specialists tend to earn more than primary care physicians.

The range of daily rates for locum tenens physicians by specialty are estimated as follows:

Radiology — $1,900 to $2,500
Anesthesiology (Specialties) — $1,775 to $1,975
Anesthesiology (General) — $1,675 to $1,800
Orthopedic Surgery — $1,570 to $1,880
Urology — $1,360 to $1,640
Obstetrics/Gynecology — $1,350 to $1,550
Gastroenterology — $1,335 to $1,900
General Surgery — $1,300 to $1,500
Cardiology — $1,275 to $2,000
Psychiatry — $900 to $1,200
General Internal Medicine — $735 to $810
Family Practice — $735 to $800
Pediatrics — $735 to $800

Which locum tenens physician specialty is highest paid?

The per diem rates for locum tenens physicians paid by healthcare facilities and physician practices to locum tenens agencies vary, but surgical and diagnostic specialists tend to earn more than primary care physicians. The range of daily rates for locum tenens physicians by specialty are listed.

www.beckershospitalreview.com

 

[Unty]

Hey but everything is great in Pathology though!

 

[path24]

Confirming the future will be worse. Crappy/no jobs, decreased pay, no job security...etc.

Stay away med students, stay away.

 

[bauber]

I left fellowship at a major academic place with about 18 fellows this past June. All graduating fellows found jobs and most, including myself, found jobs in their desired location. Some with 2 fellowships and some with 1. So that was my experience.

This study and the conclusions they draw from it are silly...and there are definitely too many pathology training programs out there. I would be interested to see a list of programs and their total surgical accessions per year.

 

[Med Director New England]

Path doctor - Just out of curiosity did you by Chance call and verify the daily rate of 750? That annualizes to just over 172K assuming 46 weeks/ yr

I would imagine a company marching locums to sites needing the doctor match payment closely to market demand and would be quick to adjust based on supply vs demand. They only get paid when theymake a match - price too low or too high will deter one of the parties.

The market forces are not that complicated. All of lab medicine / pathology Has been consolidating now for a while. Hospitals have been merging into larger and larger systems. In many cases if similar services are offered at now partner hospitals that are geographically close one of them might shutter a service entirely. This can effect pathology in many ways but the most common effect is less onsite pathology services are needed at satellites and lab work and AP services consolidated to a central lab. This is how a major reduction in practicing pathologists over the last 10 yrs has not really improved the job market and not had any deleterious effects on patient care. Simply put we are more efficient b/c of scale and consolidation and don’t need as many paths as we did in the past.

The pathologist at the central lab may see this as growth but it is just shifting of work.

This along with improved EMRs that allow us to work quicker, utilizing ancillary staff for grossing, taking the cost effective approach of utilizing other professionals or PhDs for CP work are other market forces that will allow fewer pathologists to take care of the same amount of work than in years past.

It is not necessarily a bad thing that we are becoming more efficient. In fact I think it is a good thing. But this needs to be recognized by all stakeholders in pathology so that we can carefully plan to train the correct number of future pathologists so that we don’t put our field in a position to become a commodity with no bargaining power. To those paying attention it is already clear this is happening.

 

[Unty]

I left fellowship at a major academic place with about 18 fellows this past June. All graduating fellows found jobs and most, including myself, found jobs in their desired location. Some with 2 fellowships and some with 1. So that was my experience.

This study and the conclusions they draw from it are silly...and there are definitely too many pathology training programs out there. I would be interested to see a list of programs and their total surgical accessions per year.

How did the fellows find their jobs by pathologyoutlines or word of mouth?

 

[LADoc00]

13% response rate with about 1/2 looking for a new hire. We can then infer from this: 6% of TOTAL pathology practices are actively hiring!

hahahahahaha

 

[y2k_free_radical]

13% response rate with about 1/2 looking for a new hire. We can then infer from this: 6% of TOTAL pathology practices are actively hiring!

hahahahahaha

There are lies,damn lies and statistics.Statistics will tell you anything you want if you torture them enough.

 

[Loulou77]

I am an academic pathologist and I have personally found the job market to be quite good. I finished my (only) fellowship in 2017 from a top tier training program. In my last year of training I applied to 5 faculty positions. I interviewed at all 5 and also received offers from all 5 places. Salary ranged from $180-$225. After a few years of being an attending, I started getting contacted and asked to consider other opportunities about once per month.

About a year ago, I accepted a better position ($300k/year plus $150k sign on bonus) in the city I am from and I could not be happier! I don’t have first hand experience with the private practice market but approximately 75% of the residents I trained with are working in private practice and they had no issues getting jobs in the $280-350k range right out of fellowship training in the locations of their choice.

Where you train is extremely important. If you decide to do pathology, aim for the best program you can get possibly get yourself into. A top tier pathology residency program should be well within the reach of any AMG.

In contrast, my first attending position was at a place with a low to mid tier pathology residency program and it was 80+% IMGs, many of which had very poor English and poor work ethic. The volume at this place was also very low compared to where I trained and I do not think the residents received adequate training, as they had ongoing problems with residents passing the boards. These residents typically went on to complete a minimum of 2 fellowships and struggled to find jobs. That being said, I can understand how someone with extremely poor English, inadequate diagnostic skills and poor work ethic would struggle to find employment.

Shoot for the top, work your butt off during training and take some English courses if necessary and you should be fine.

I love working in pathology! The clinical work is fascinating, my research is unbelievably exciting and the lifestyle is lovely. I truly wouldn’t trade it for any other specialty.

 

[bauber]

How did the fellows find their jobs by pathologyoutlines or word of mouth?

Mostly word of mouth. I don't think anyone mentioned getting a job they found through pathoutlines. I cold emailed a few places and never heard back. One place had filled the position by the time they got back to me. I found my job by sending out my CV with a short message on linkedin to the lab manager here.

 

[MetroPath]

Mostly word of mouth. I don't think anyone mentioned getting a job they found through pathoutlines. I cold emailed a few places and never heard back. One place had filled the position by the time they got back to me. I found my job by sending out my CV with a short message on linkedin to the lab manager here.

Yup seems like the best jobs are by word of mouth. That was my hunch that those that go to the well regarded programs get their jobs byway of mouth. Those that aren’t in the loop are left to jobs on pathoutlines.

 

[MetroPath]

I am an academic pathologist and I have personally found the job market to be quite good. I finished my (only) fellowship in 2017 from a top tier training program. In my last year of training I applied to 5 faculty positions. I interviewed at all 5 and also received offers from all 5 places. Salary ranged from $180-$225. After a few years of being an attending, I started getting contacted and asked to consider other opportunities about once per month.

About a year ago, I accepted a better position ($300k/year plus $150k sign on bonus) in the city I am from and I could not be happier! I don’t have first hand experience with the private practice market but approximately 75% of the residents I trained with are working in private practice and they had no issues getting jobs in the $280-350k range right out of fellowship training in the locations of their choice.

Where you train is extremely important. If you decide to do pathology, aim for the best program you can get possibly get yourself into. A top tier pathology residency program should be well within the reach of any AMG.

In contrast, my first attending position was at a place with a low to mid tier pathology residency program and it was 80+% IMGs, many of which had very poor English and poor work ethic. The volume at this place was also very low compared to where I trained and I do not think the residents received adequate training, as they had ongoing problems with residents passing the boards. These residents typically went on to complete a minimum of 2 fellowships and struggled to find jobs. That being said, I can understand how someone with extremely poor English, inadequate diagnostic skills and poor work ethic would struggle to find employment.

Shoot for the top, work your butt off during training and take some English courses if necessary and you should be fine.

I love working in pathology! The clinical work is fascinating, my research is unbelievably exciting and the lifestyle is lovely. I truly wouldn’t trade it for any other specialty.

Thanks for your input. It’s input from those practicing which are valuable to us on SDN. My friends got jobs starting at 180k-220. Not great jobs (semirural area, outpatient lab loooking at biopsies-job security was an issue ).

I don’t know anyone getting a starting offer of 280 by the way.

I truly think with the number of candidates out there looking for a job, both good and bad, employers will start their search for a candidate from a well regarded program first and I don’t blame them especially with what you mentioned in regards to some with poor work ethic, etc and that goes back to the discussion that there are too many programs out there which are matching weaker candidates and shelling out subpar training.

I also wonder how many CVs employers get after posting a job on pathologyoutlines? That would be a good way to measure the job market.

 

[Med Director New England]

I am an academic pathologist and I have personally found the job market to be quite good. I finished my (only) fellowship in 2017 from a top tier training program. In my last year of training I applied to 5 faculty positions. I interviewed at all 5 and also received offers from all 5 places. Salary ranged from $180-$225. After a few years of being an attending, I started getting contacted and asked to consider other opportunities about once per month.

About a year ago, I accepted a better position ($300k/year plus $150k sign on bonus) in the city I am from and I could not be happier! I don’t have first hand experience with the private practice market but approximately 75% of the residents I trained with are working in private practice and they had no issues getting jobs in the $280-350k range right out of fellowship training in the locations of their choice.

Where you train is extremely important. If you decide to do pathology, aim for the best program you can get possibly get yourself into. A top tier pathology residency program should be well within the reach of any AMG.

In contrast, my first attending position was at a place with a low to mid tier pathology residency program and it was 80+% IMGs, many of which had very poor English and poor work ethic. The volume at this place was also very low compared to where I trained and I do not think the residents received adequate training, as they had ongoing problems with residents passing the boards. These residents typically went on to complete a minimum of 2 fellowships and struggled to find jobs. That being said, I can understand how someone with extremely poor English, inadequate diagnostic skills and poor work ethic would struggle to find employment.

Shoot for the top, work your butt off during training and take some English courses if necessary and you should be fine.

I love working in pathology! The clinical work is fascinating, my research is unbelievably exciting and the lifestyle is lovely. I truly wouldn’t trade it for any other specialty.

So just to make sure I understand.
You finished training in 2017 and started in academia. After a few yrs as attending you starting getting recruited but (Somehow) only a yr ago you took a different job still in academia, so started second job summer 2018.

making 300K in academia only one year out - I assume at the rank of assistant professor.
jeez do full profs make 500k in your dept?

That is certainly not the norm in academia. I spent a while in an academic job and about 1/2 of who I trained with are lifers in academia. none are doing as well as you 10 + yrs out, some of whom have progressed to high ranks full prof’s, division chiefs, vice chairs...

 

[Loulou77]

So just to make sure I understand.
You finished training in 2017 and started in academia. After a few yrs as attending you starting getting recruited but (Somehow) only a yr ago you took a different job still in academia, so started second job summer 2018.

making 300K in academia only one year out - I assume at the rank of assistant professor.
jeez do full profs make 500k in your dept?

That is certainly not the norm in academia. I spent a while in an academic job and about 1/2 of who I trained with are lifers in academia. none are doing as well as you 10 + yrs out, some of whom have progressed to high ranks full prof’s, division chiefs, vice chairs...

I finished training in 2012**** certainly NOT 2017. Bad typo but at least I got a good laugh out of it!

Associate Professor level was required for the promotion/raise as well as a clinical directorship role. I agree that this would most likely be impossible for someone only one year out of training.

My academic colleagues on my level make similar to what I make regionally. However, I do have a pretty decent productivity incentive which is measured by publications and grants that helps bump up my pay once my yearly benchmarks are met. It is an extreme effective motivator! However, I do work much harder in my current position than in my prior position that didn’t have this perk. It is far from a casual 9am-4pm gig...

 

[Med Director New England]

I finished training in 2012**** certainly NOT 2017. Bad typo but at least I got a good laugh out of it!

Associate Professor level was required for the promotion/raise as well as a clinical directorship role. I agree that this would most likely be impossible for someone only one year out of training.

My academic colleagues on my level make similar to what I make regionally. However, I do have a pretty decent productivity incentive which is measured by publications and grants that helps bump up my pay once my yearly benchmarks are met. It is an extreme effective motivator! However, I do work much harder in my current position than in my prior position that didn’t have this perk. It is far from a casual 9am-4pm gig...

Hmm..Yeah I would say 300k salary in second yr of academic setting to not be improbable but rather impossible.
Would also say the same about 150k sign on bonus in academia
Would also wonder what region of the US do mid levels in academia make On average 300k

 

[caffeinegirl]

I have heard of this (300K) first-hand - the South academics dermpath. Lots of academic dermpaths make $$, especially if paid separately from outreach business.

 

[Med Director New England]

I have heard of this (300K) first-hand - the South academics dermpath. Lots of academic dermpaths make $$, especially if paid separately from outreach business.

I suppose dermpath in the south, mixing in a few grants and doing some clinical directorships could be the ticket..
You buy the 150k sign on bonus too?

this 1st time post from a person who only signed up a few days ago strikes me as odd

 

[caffeinegirl]

Agree. The 150K sign on bonus is a little far-fetched, but the salary is feasible. Always be weary of first-time posts.

 

[Med Director New England]

Not just the bonus to me that sounds fishy.
- every single trainee from this mysterious program coming right out with salaries around 300k everyone in the place they want to be
- the OP spending 5 yrs languishing at some middling academic program with sub-standard residency program (probably without much support or opportunity for scholarship) and then smoothly transition back to some other place now landing grants and being Uber successful
- and the overall summation message that everything is fine, enter path, work hard... seems like the whole post has an underlying agenda

I think it is more likely that someone already regularly posting in SDN created a second profile than the post being genuine

 

[MetroPath]

I am an academic pathologist and I have personally found the job market to be quite good. I finished my (only) fellowship in 2017 from a top tier training program. In my last year of training I applied to 5 faculty positions. I interviewed at all 5 and also received offers from all 5 places. Salary ranged from $180-$225. After a few years of being an attending, I started getting contacted and asked to consider other opportunities about once per month.

About a year ago, I accepted a better position ($300k/year plus $150k sign on bonus) in the city I am from and I could not be happier! I don’t have first hand experience with the private practice market but approximately 75% of the residents I trained with are working in private practice and they had no issues getting jobs in the $280-350k range right out of fellowship training in the locations of their choice.

Where you train is extremely important. If you decide to do pathology, aim for the best program you can get possibly get yourself into. A top tier pathology residency program should be well within the reach of any AMG.

In contrast, my first attending position was at a place with a low to mid tier pathology residency program and it was 80+% IMGs, many of which had very poor English and poor work ethic. The volume at this place was also very low compared to where I trained and I do not think the residents received adequate training, as they had ongoing problems with residents passing the boards. These residents typically went on to complete a minimum of 2 fellowships and struggled to find jobs. That being said, I can understand how someone with extremely poor English, inadequate diagnostic skills and poor work ethic would struggle to find employment.

Shoot for the top, work your butt off during training and take some English courses if necessary and you should be fine.

I love working in pathology! The clinical work is fascinating, my research is unbelievably exciting and the lifestyle is lovely. I truly wouldn’t trade it for any other specialty.

I’ve worked with a bunch of FMGs from attendings, residents and fellows (n of more than 50-100). Although some have a heavier accent than others I was able to understand each and every one of them. Not sure why people can’t jbderstand some foreigners. They had to pass the CS with decent English speaking skills.

 

[Euchromatin]

Not just the bonus to me that sounds fishy.
- every single trainee from this mysterious program coming right out with salaries around 300k everyone in the place they want to be
- the OP spending 5 yrs languishing at some middling academic program with sub-standard residency program (probably without much support or opportunity for scholarship) and then smoothly transition back to some elite place now landing grants and being Uber successful
- and the overall summation message that everything is fine, enter path, work hard... seems like the whole post has an underlying agenda

I think it is more likely that someone already regularly posting in SDN created a second profile than the post being genuine

I also find some parts of Loulou's story pretty hard to swallow. I have never heard of anyone getting a signing bonus in pathology. Maybe a modest amount for relocation/travel expenses, but a signing bonus of half of annual salary just sounds ridiculous. Maybe if you were like one of the top 3 best known pathologists in some subspecialty (e.g. regularly invited to present at educational meetings, written a bunch of textbooks, dozens of highly cited papers, etc.) and you were moving to a new department and got a sweet deal in exchange for bringing a your lucrative consult work with you.

The $300k salary for an associate prof with directorship role I think could be feasible, but would depend a lot on location (also not clear if this is including the mentioned bonuses or not). I wouldn't necessarily infer that the new place Loulou moved to is "elite" based on their story. If anything, I think a good portion of the biggest name "elite" places probably get away with paying less because prestige is so important to the type of person that would want to work there anyway. It also didn't sound like they were getting grants (which are nearly impossible to get from what I've heard), just that they get a bonus from their department for achieving some specified amount of academic productivity. That was one of the things I didn't care for about academics - depending on how the promotions/bonuses are structured, it often creates perverse incentives to try and divide any research work done into the largest number of separate individual publications. And the politics involved in trying to get one's name listed as an author on every project possible (and/or arguing about who is going to be first and last authors). Not my cup of tea.

 

[cmz]

I am not so sure about the $300K salary starting right out of the gate in private practice. We are talking about someone with zero independent sign out experience. I have heard this number pop up, but I want to say that the number being thrown around is considered total compensation (salary, health insurance, med-mal, 401K/SEP, etc). A total compensation package worth 300k is believable but a base salary of 300K ... not so much. I've heard of a lot of Dallas groups offer "300K" salary to their new hires coming out of fellowship, but these are essentially 1099 employees with zero benefits. That 300K quickly disappears into finding your own med-mal, your own health insurance, and funding your retirement...

I won't say that these salaries do not exist because I was potentially offered something that high with the first PP group I joined. However, the group decided on two hires instead of one. I did have independent sign out experience though. My salary for the first year was what someone might call a decent salary as an associate professor, but it wasn't near 300K. The job was a nice 8-4PM job with every Friday off after your week of call, so the work was definitely proportionate to the salary you earned. The owners of the contract certainly made A LOT more, but that's what was to be expected.

 

[ScubaV]

I got 275k base salary fresh out of fellowship, but I'm in an employed position not private practice. My pay went up starting Year 2, but it's not at the level I imagine a partner would make if our case load was in a private group.

 

[gbwillner]

This again....med students do your own due diligence. Talk to path trainees near the end of training who are looking for jobs Or recent hires about their views on the job market.

Also consider the fact that no one here who is a practicing pathologist who opines that the job market is bad has anything to gain by saying this (I.e no reason to lie).

I....

I disagree with this statement. There are certainly negative voices out there that believe that if they scare away enough applicants, then there will be less competition for their jobs and their contracts. This would be of direct benefit to them. However, they are misguided, because there will always be applicants- probably worse ones, as you are only scaring off the AMGs that are reading these threads.

 

[Med Director New England]

I disagree with this statement. There are certainly negative voices out there that believe that if they scare away enough applicants, then there will be less competition for their jobs and their contracts. This would be of direct benefit to them. However, they are misguided, because there will always be applicants- probably worse ones, as you are only scaring off the AMGs that are reading these threads.

You might question my motivations - but note I have consistently urged students considering path to do their own due diligence. My motivation for posting here Is not to be malicious or deceitful or scare off applicants, but rather to help inform anyone contemplating entering path what to expect.

I have resigned myself to the fact that nothing will change regarding pathology training slots in my career, but I am pretty far along.The folks here who are experienced pathologists also know that the current Q of training slots are loaded with trainees. So even if tomorrow the ABP closed every program it would take 6 yrs for all the residents and fellows to work thru the system - so there would be literally no effect for 6 or 7 yrs and even longer for any real effect. Of course that won’t happen, perhaps a modest reduction or closure of struggling programs, which might be impactful in 20 yrs. By that time I’ll be sipping margaritas and playing shuffleboard down by the pool... So I stand by my point that no amount of banter here will really effect the career of an established pathologist, thus little motivation to lie.

I do suspect in this string that there was a non-genuine post, at best grossly exaggerated and at worst completely fabricated and deceitful.

 

[y2k_free_radical]

I disagree with this statement. There are certainly negative voices out there that believe that if they scare away enough applicants, then there will be less competition for their jobs and their contracts. This would be of direct benefit to them. However, they are misguided, because there will always be applicants- probably worse ones, as you are only scaring off the AMGs that are reading these threads.

Seems to me that ACADEMICS have a stronger financial motive to cheerlead.Why does BOSTON U have so few AMGs but DR REMICK is the ACADEMIC SPOKESMAN here

 

[MetroPath]

I disagree with this statement. There are certainly negative voices out there that believe that if they scare away enough applicants, then there will be less competition for their jobs and their contracts. This would be of direct benefit to them. However, they are misguided, because there will always be applicants- probably worse ones, as you are only scaring off the AMGs that are reading these threads.

If you can scare off an AMG by a forum then their heart most likely isn’t in Path anyways. I think if you enjoy Pathology and can’t see yourself doing anything other than Pathology you will go into it.

Although both fields lack patient contact, they are very different. I think if you are a AMG you are in two camps: those that want or need patient contact and those that would be ok without it.

If you are ok with not seeing patients, then you are left with radiology or pathology. The two fields like I said are entirely different. If you truly enjoy and find your interests more in line with pathology, you would go into it despite whatever anyone says.

I “maybe” can only see myself in radiology but I’ve concluded Pathology was the best fit for me based on my interests and past.

Radiology has a much better job market and average pay than Pathology however. If you disagree with me on that, then you are clueless.

If more money and an abundance of jobs is important for you consider Radiology.

I’m currently looking at jobs now and they are limited. My job search has been limited to online searches. I have not been lucky in regards to word of mouth. I am currently at an academic institution and one of the big names only has connections with mostly academics which I have no interest in.

There are jobs scattered around the country. Not many near my hometown. I may have to moce to a city I’m not willing to move to to secure a job. I’m not trying to scare anyone away. I’m just giving you my experience.

I will eventually find a job and will be happy somewhere but where that is I’m not sure. Whether I’ll be happy in my first job I don’t know. I can see myself moving to another job after I get some signout experience under my belt.

If you guys are finding great jobs by word of mouth good for you. That is not the case with me thus far or a bunch of my friends who found their jobs online.

I just wonder how many CVs some of these folks are getting that are posting their jobs online.

 

[PathDoctor]

Here is an email I received from CompHealth. I deleted the name of the CompHealth representative.


I hope you are enjoying what’s left of summer! I’ve been trying to track down some pathology work and have struggled to track anything down. Please let me know if you or anyone you know is looking for any extra help.

Sincerely,
XXXXXXXXXXXX
Client Developer | Pathology
Locum Tenens Division
CompHealth

 

[MetroPath]

Here is an email I received from CompHealth. I deleted the name of the CompHealth representative.


I hope you are enjoying what’s left of summer! I’ve been trying to track down some pathology work and have struggled to track anything down. Please let me know if you or anyone you know is looking for any extra help.

Sincerely,
XXXXXXXXXXXX
Client Developer | Pathology
Locum Tenens Division
CompHealth

Thanks for contributing. It’s emails like this that shows how weak the job market is.

There are jobs out there but they are limited. I just wonder how many CVs these employers are getting. With 600 candidates entering the workforce every year and the number of jobs in seeing online it doesn’t look good.

CAP tries to paint a rosy job market but I’m not seeing it for myself.

I asked a recruiter for six states I was interested in and this is what I received (since you shared):

As of right now, we don’t have anything in those areas. I will let you know when something becomes available.


Thank you,

Xxxxxxxx c Consultant IM Subs Permanent Placement Division

Maybe it’s too early?

 

[cmz]

I need 6 - 10 pathologists right now.

 

[Unty]

I need 6 - 10 pathologists right now.

Put up an ad and let us know how many CVs you get.

 

[cmz]

Put up an ad and let us know how many CVs you get.

I will probably use a head hunter for this, but I've used pathologyoutlines in the past (on two occasions) and I didn't receive the promised quota of CVs as stated on SDN -- nowhere near 50 people tout. Most of the candidates were fellows looking for work in July (as expected) and a few journeymen pathologists who jumped from job to job every 2-3 years. I did encounter a pathologist with FOUR fellowships (did a fellowship in something then got a PP job --> left job/let-go --> proceeded to do THREE more fellowships) and that was quite the surprise but an all too telling sign as to the candidate's quality. I interviewed one pathologist who sat across from me at lunch picking their teeth with a toothpick for a good 10 minutes while espousing the good works and deeds of CAP and vilifying pathologists who aren't members of the organization, "If you're not apart of CAP, then don't complain about the condition of our specialty." One applicant told me they liked to do yoga in the morning and couldn't be at work until maybe 9-930AM and asked if that would be a problem. That person ended up getting a job at a glorified POD lab somewhere in AK. I don't know if I'm getting trolled IRL or what.

Overall, the experience has been underwhelming to say the least. It seems like for every 50 applicants, maybe 2-3 are quality and exactly what you're looking for.

I am afraid that I might be in the wrong market AKA not a big city. It's been stated here before that there are plenty of jobs in the US -- I tend to agree with this statement. Jobs exist but it just depends if you want to be in a so called "desirable location." I tell every applicant I interview that we have two international airports so finding a way to travel isn't an issue. We are not in a rural area. I try to hype up the fact that our area has an extremely low cost of living and you can practically live like a king and do all the stuff that the whitecoat investor tells you not to do while still maximizing your retirement account, HSA, etc.

Anyway, in case any of you are looking for a chance of scenery, maybe our paths will cross in the near future.

 

[Pathological_Liar]

I've been out of training (in private practice) for three years, and here are my observations from periodically interviewing as an applicant and from participation in our own recruiting efforts:

Private practice jobs in "desirable" locations posted to PathOutlines will get 90+ applicants (Seattle, Hawaii, LA, etc). These are rarely advertised, so I suppose it makes sense that everyone throws their hat in the ring when they see an opportunity. These groups are offering experienced pathologists around $250K starting, with maybe $20K annual bonus.

Jobs in less desirable but still livable cities (Sacramento, Milwaukee, etc), will yield 40+ applicants, and have marginally better salaries.

Kaiser is the only group I've seen offering >$300K base to experienced hires. There was also one employed position in a very rural location that offered $350K, but had average turnover of 1-2 years.

Signing bonuses range from $10-20K (nothing remotely close to the $150K quoted earlier), and essentially function as a relocation stipend.

Posting on PathOutlines tends to repeatedly yield the same group of destitute pathologists looking for work in perpetuity, with a turnover of maybe 5% per quarter. Having said this, I think there's a large percentage of good pathologists who want to move, but don't due to the scant supply of desirable new jobs, the small field making it awkward to interview in a confidential way, and the general fear of the unknown that comes with not having direct control over what comes across your desk (ie, new job could be all inflammatory derm and garbage bronch washes).

The vast majority of new grads are spoiled af and refuse to even consider relocating to a semi-rural area to start out.

 

[MetroPath]

I've been out of training (in private practice) for three years, and here are my observations from periodically interviewing as an applicant and from participation in our own recruiting efforts:

Private practice jobs in "desirable" locations posted to PathOutlines will get 90+ applicants (Seattle, Hawaii, LA, etc). These are rarely advertised, so I suppose it makes sense that everyone throws their hat in the ring when they see an opportunity. These groups are offering experienced pathologists around $250K starting, with maybe $20K annual bonus.

Jobs in less desirable but still livable cities (Sacramento, Milwaukee, etc), will yield 40+ applicants, and have marginally better salaries.

Kaiser is the only group I've seen offering >$300K base to experienced hires. There was also one employed position in a very rural location that offered $350K, but had average turnover of 1-2 years.

Signing bonuses range from $10-20K (nothing remotely close to the $150K quoted earlier), and essentially function as a relocation stipend.

Posting on PathOutlines tends to repeatedly yield the same group of destitute pathologists looking for work in perpetuity, with a turnover of maybe 5% per quarter. Having said this, I think there's a large percentage of good pathologists who want to move, but don't due to the scant supply of desirable new jobs, the small field making it awkward to interview in a confidential way, and the general fear of the unknown that comes with not having direct control over what comes across your desk (ie, new job could be all inflammatory derm and garbage bronch washes).

The vast majority of new grads are spoiled af and refuse to even consider relocating to a semi-rural area to start out.

New grads are considered spoiled to have to move to a semirural area to start out? Some folks have family and the significant other may not be willing to move to a semi rural or rural area.

Some may not want to raise theirs kids in a rural area. I don’t think you can call someone spoiled for not wanting to move to a semirural area.

Some want to be close to family and a rural area may be far from family.

I do understand what you are trying to say especially with this pathology market and it may be necessary as a first job to get signout experience but you can’t call someone spoiled for not wanting to live in a semirural area.

 

[Unty]

I've been out of training (in private practice) for three years, and here are my observations from periodically interviewing as an applicant and from participation in our own recruiting efforts:

Private practice jobs in "desirable" locations posted to PathOutlines will get 90+ applicants (Seattle, Hawaii, LA, etc). These are rarely advertised, so I suppose it makes sense that everyone throws their hat in the ring when they see an opportunity. These groups are offering experienced pathologists around $250K starting, with maybe $20K annual bonus.

Jobs in less desirable but still livable cities (Sacramento, Milwaukee, etc), will yield 40+ applicants, and have marginally better salaries.

Kaiser is the only group I've seen offering >$300K base to experienced hires. There was also one employed position in a very rural location that offered $350K, but had average turnover of 1-2 years.

Signing bonuses range from $10-20K (nothing remotely close to the $150K quoted earlier), and essentially function as a relocation stipend.

Posting on PathOutlines tends to repeatedly yield the same group of destitute pathologists looking for work in perpetuity, with a turnover of maybe 5% per quarter. Having said this, I think there's a large percentage of good pathologists who want to move, but don't due to the scant supply of desirable new jobs, the small field making it awkward to interview in a confidential way, and the general fear of the unknown that comes with not having direct control over what comes across your desk (ie, new job could be all inflammatory derm and garbage bronch washes).

The vast majority of new grads are spoiled af and refuse to even consider relocating to a semi-rural area to start out.

90+ applicants????? Wait I thought the job market was great like ririri says?

 

[Pathological_Liar]

New grads are considered spoiled to have to move to a semirural area to start out? Some folks have family and the significant other may not be willing to move to a semi rural or rural area.

Some may not want to raise theirs kids in a rural area. I don’t think you can call someone spoiled for not wanting to move to a semirural area.

Some want to be close to family and a rural area may be far from family.

I do understand what you are trying to say especially with this pathology market and it may be necessary as a first job to get signout experience but you can’t call someone spoiled for not wanting to live in a semirural area.

That's fine to have that preference, but they shouldn't be surprised when the best thing they can find in the 90 mile radius they're willing to live is an instructor position for $120k.
When new grads talk to me looking for $300k+ starting salaries with 8 weeks PTO in downtown major cities, I just tell them good luck.

Unlike tech/finance/big law, doctors actually have to staff the sprawling post-apocolyptic cultural wasteland of rural America. I can guarantee if our group has an opening for one of our downtown hospitals in a highly desirable location, it will be staffed internally (or rarely with an experienced external candidate).

 

[Med Director New England]

Why shouldn’t a new path grad want to be able to get a decent job where they want to live? Is that really a huge ask....No other subspecialty is even having this discussion


Any body in family med, gen surgery, IM, rads, psych, hospital medicine (I could keep going) would have multiple offers in the most competitive markets. But for path this is not true. Something to think about..

 

[Med Director New England]

Also one comment on the instructor for 120 idea. This is academia exploiting a labor surplus plain and simple.

 

[PathDoctor]

Here is an example of a private pathology group with only two partners and then numerous non-partners who have worked for the group for quite a few years.

About The PAL Group Members

In my experience this is not seen in any other field of medicine and is a direct result of the oversupply of pathologists.

Here is the continued degradation of pathology by venture capitalists:
September 10, 2019
PathGroup, one of the largest private providers of pathology, clinical and molecular laboratory services in the United States, announced today that Southeastern Pathology Associates has joined the PathGroup family of pathology practices and laboratories.
Together, Nashville-based PathGroup and SEPA will include more than 175 pathologists representing every sub-specialty. This comprehensive pathology network will serve over 95 hospitals and thousands of physician practices across the United States.....
“We welcome Dr. Patrick Godbey, Dr. Mark Hanly, SEPA’s pathologists and employees to PathGroup’s growing team,” said Ben W. Davis, M.D., President and Chief Executive Officer of PathGroup. “SEPA’s dedication to providing unmatched pathology and laboratory services and their commitment to the health systems and physicians they serve provide an excellent complement to PathGroup’s core values.”
PathGroup is owned by Pritzker Private Capital along with management.

PathGroup Combines Forces with Southeastern Pathology Associates, Growing Pathology Services and Hospital Relationships

PathGroup, one of the largest private providers of pathology, clinical and molecular laboratory services in the United States, announced today that So

www.businesswire.com

Patrick Godbey is the CAP president. His group has sold out.

There are now thousands of pathologists working for corporate slide mills (Ameripath, Labcorp, Sonic, HCA etc.). All the mills benefit from pathologist oversupply since it lowers salaries.

“Salaries for most of our pathologists—and we’ve worked with 10 percent of all pathologists in the nation in the last 17 years—have been in a long, steady decline as pathology groups continue to consolidate.
A lot of these small regional dermatopathology companies being bought up. Ohio, for example, used to have 15 dermatopathology groups. Now they have three that are independent and everyone else is owned by a big dermatopathology rollout,” in the same way that pharmacies rolled up into CVS, Walgreens, and Rite Aid, he points out. “We are seeing the same thing in labs. They used to make a 20 percent margin; now it’s 10 percent or five percent and they are still holding on, but it doesn’t bode well.”

Shifting trends test labs’ financial mettle - CAP TODAY

September 2019—There’s nothing new about lab and pathology reimbursement cuts that threaten bottom lines. Over the past three or four decades they’ve become essentially part of the wallpaper in health care.

www.captodayonline.com

Comment: So if you want to have job satisfaction that is on par with a pharmacist at CVS, Walgreens, and Rite-Aid, then pathology is certainly the ideal field for you.
Or you could get a great locums job like this where you get to gross and sign out 100 cases per day:
JOB-2597298: An Indiana-based facility is currently seeking a pathologist to assist with locum tenens coverage. The assignment schedule is Monday - Friday from 8:00 am to 5:00 pm with no call, and you will see 100 cases per day on average. The covering physician must be board certified or board eligible. There will be enough time to obtain an IN state license before this assignment begins -- any interested physician can apply.
Are you interested? Give CompHealth a call to discuss all options and opportunities.

• Certification: BC/BE required
• License: IN state license needed
• Schedule: Monday - Friday 8:00 am - 5:00 pm
• Call: No
• Caseload: 100 reads per day
• Procedures: Grossing required

Jobs | Health Jobs Nationwide

101,034 Jobs - Job search on Health Jobs Nationwide.

www.healthjobsnationwide.com

Or you could do pathology residency followed by forensic fellowship and live on a salary of $182K-215K in Phoenix Arizona.

https://www.thename.org/assets/docs/Medical%20Examiner%20-%20Phoenix%20AZ%208%2015%202019%20-%2010-15-2019.pdf

 

[Doormat]

So cool to hear about SEPA and path group. Looks like Dr. Godbey, former president of CAP, has happily pulled up the ladders to success after he climbed up them.

Similar to the the aurora (now sonic) acquisitions in the southeast, recruiting quality pathologists to work for a private venture firm will be difficult. PathGroup may think they have leverage because of their size, but the Quest and LabCorp-owned pathology groups beg to differ.