CAP paints rosy job market

[PathDoctor]

CAP Officers
Patrick E. Godbey, MD, FCAP
CAP President
Term 2019-2021
Emily Ellen Volk, MD, MBA, FCAP
CAP President-elect
Term 2019-2021
Richard R. Gomez, MD, FCAP
CAP Secretary-Treasurer
Term 2015-2021

CAP Officers

List of the current CAP Board of Governors.

www.cap.org

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[gbwillner]

Here is an example of a private pathology group with only two partners and then numerous non-partners who have worked for the group for quite a few years.

About The PAL Group Members

In my experience this is not seen in any other field of medicine and is a direct result of the oversupply of pathologists.

Here is the continued degradation of pathology by venture capitalists:
September 10, 2019
PathGroup, one of the largest private providers of pathology, clinical and molecular laboratory services in the United States, announced today that Southeastern Pathology Associates has joined the PathGroup family of pathology practices and laboratories.
Together, Nashville-based PathGroup and SEPA will include more than 175 pathologists representing every sub-specialty. This comprehensive pathology network will serve over 95 hospitals and thousands of physician practices across the United States.....
“We welcome Dr. Patrick Godbey, Dr. Mark Hanly, SEPA’s pathologists and employees to PathGroup’s growing team,” said Ben W. Davis, M.D., President and Chief Executive Officer of PathGroup. “SEPA’s dedication to providing unmatched pathology and laboratory services and their commitment to the health systems and physicians they serve provide an excellent complement to PathGroup’s core values.”
PathGroup is owned by Pritzker Private Capital along with management.

PathGroup Combines Forces with Southeastern Pathology Associates, Growing Pathology Services and Hospital Relationships

PathGroup, one of the largest private providers of pathology, clinical and molecular laboratory services in the United States, announced today that So

www.businesswire.com

Patrick Godbey is the CAP president. His group has sold out.

There are now thousands of pathologists working for corporate slide mills (Ameripath, Labcorp, Sonic, HCA etc.). All the mills benefit from pathologist oversupply since it lowers salaries.

“Salaries for most of our pathologists—and we’ve worked with 10 percent of all pathologists in the nation in the last 17 years—have been in a long, steady decline as pathology groups continue to consolidate.
A lot of these small regional dermatopathology companies being bought up. Ohio, for example, used to have 15 dermatopathology groups. Now they have three that are independent and everyone else is owned by a big dermatopathology rollout,” in the same way that pharmacies rolled up into CVS, Walgreens, and Rite Aid, he points out. “We are seeing the same thing in labs. They used to make a 20 percent margin; now it’s 10 percent or five percent and they are still holding on, but it doesn’t bode well.”

Shifting trends test labs’ financial mettle - CAP TODAY

September 2019—There’s nothing new about lab and pathology reimbursement cuts that threaten bottom lines. Over the past three or four decades they’ve become essentially part of the wallpaper in health care.

www.captodayonline.com

Comment: So if you want to have job satisfaction that is on par with a pharmacist at CVS, Walgreens, and Rite-Aid, then pathology is certainly the ideal field for you.
Or you could get a great locums job like this where you get to gross and sign out 100 cases per day:
JOB-2597298: An Indiana-based facility is currently seeking a pathologist to assist with locum tenens coverage. The assignment schedule is Monday - Friday from 8:00 am to 5:00 pm with no call, and you will see 100 cases per day on average. The covering physician must be board certified or board eligible. There will be enough time to obtain an IN state license before this assignment begins -- any interested physician can apply.
Are you interested? Give CompHealth a call to discuss all options and opportunities.

• Certification: BC/BE required
• License: IN state license needed
• Schedule: Monday - Friday 8:00 am - 5:00 pm
• Call: No
• Caseload: 100 reads per day
• Procedures: Grossing required

Jobs | Health Jobs Nationwide

101,034 Jobs - Job search on Health Jobs Nationwide.

www.healthjobsnationwide.com

Or you could do pathology residency followed by forensic fellowship and live on a salary of $182K-215K in Phoenix Arizona.

https://www.thename.org/assets/docs/Medical%20Examiner%20-%20Phoenix%20AZ%208%2015%202019%20-%2010-15-2019.pdf

Thanks for posting this. This is a HUGE issue for pathology, but is reflective of medicine in general. Get out and speak to Rads, Oncs, and other non-hospital based practitioners, and they will give a similar story- of consolidation. I am not certain this really has that much to do with over-supply. How can a small private practice compete for contracts with groups that have infrastructure and committed resources for marketing, sales, billing? The only hope is that you have leverage in your personal relationships with your clients (the clinicians you serve). But what good is that when those same practices are also bought and sold to similar corporations?

I know the oversupply issue is a hot topic and a low-hanging fruit to pin all our problems on. However, I urge you guys to take a broader view and see the issues are far more complex. There is no single magic bullet that will reverse course for this field. We are a small cog in a very large wheel. having fewer replacement cogs in the bucket is not going to change the wheel much.

 

[gbwillner]

Why shouldn’t a new path grad want to be able to get a decent job where they want to live? Is that really a huge ask....No other subspecialty is even having this discussion


Any body in family med, gen surgery, IM, rads, psych, hospital medicine (I could keep going) would have multiple offers in the most competitive markets. But for path this is not true. Something to think about..

Yes, please think about it. If you expected to be able to practice pathology in any market of your choosing then you really chose the wrong field. Instead of comparing to PCPs like IM, psych, and family medicine, where this is essentially true because you have to cover 80-100% of covered lives and are limited to 15-30 patient interactions per day, please pick a more suitable comparator. Why not compare to Rad Onc? or nuclear med? or neuro surgery? Do you think those guys get to pick whatever location they want?

 

[Med Director New England]

Yes, please think about it. If you expected to be able to practice pathology in any market of your choosing then you really chose the wrong field. Instead of comparing to PCPs like IM, psych, and family medicine, where this is essentially true because you have to cover 80-100% of covered lives and are limited to 15-30 patient interactions per day, please pick a more suitable comparator. Why not compare to Rad Onc? or nuclear med? or neuro surgery? Do you think those guys get to pick whatever location they want?

You think rad onc, neurosurgery nuclear med are good comparables to pathology - they inherently will only work at tertiary care centers & knew this getting into the field. You mention patient coverage - what percentage of patients will ever need a neurosurgeon in their lifetime ? psych and hospital med is not primary care btw but good comparables because of they are needed everywhere.

general radiology is probably best comparable or a surgical subspecialty such as ENT or urology that has higher patient coverage as you mention. Patients only rarely need a neurosurgeon but many more need ENT or urology. General rads, urology, ENT - similar to path are needed in large cities, rural areas and places in between.

I do know the market for these 3 fields thru family and friends - much better market for these fields compared to path. It’s not even close.

 

[gbwillner]

You think rad onc, neurosurgery nuclear med are good comparables to pathology - they inherently will only work at tertiary care centers & knew this getting into the field. You mention patient coverage - what percentage of patients will ever need a neurosurgeon in their lifetime ? psych and hospital med is not primary care btw but good comparables because of they are needed everywhere.

general radiology is probably best comparable or a surgical subspecialty such as ENT or urology that has higher patient coverage as you mention. Patients only rarely need a neurosurgeon but many more need ENT or urology. General rads, urology, ENT - similar to path are needed in large cities, rural areas and places in between.

I do know the market for these 3 fields thru family and friends - much better market for these fields compared to path. It’s not even close.

My point is that patients also rarely need pathology. Of course I am excluding clinical chemistry and clinical path fields. Path is basically limited to a small subset of surgery, ENT, GI, GU, and GYN interactions. In addition, the number of interactions per path per day is very high, so few paths are needed in any one location compared to all the specialties you mention. It is a a niche market that does not compare well to other fields of medicine for this reason, and I think should be compared to other similar niche fields. Rads and the other fields not only have a better market, they have a better marketplace.

 

[y2k_free_radical]

So cool to hear about SEPA and path group. Looks like Dr. Godbey, former president of CAP, has happily pulled up the ladders to success after he climbed up them.

Similar to the the aurora (now sonic) acquisitions in the southeast, recruiting quality pathologists to work for a private venture firm will be difficult. PathGroup may think they have leverage because of their size, but the Quest and LabCorp-owned pathology groups beg to differ.

He is the ghost of CHRISTMAS present,not past.For most of SEPA history they were entwined with LAB CORP and even sold their chemistry and cytology divisions to it.

 

[yaah]

I will probably use a head hunter for this, but I've used pathologyoutlines in the past (on two occasions) and I didn't receive the promised quota of CVs as stated on SDN -- nowhere near 50 people tout. Most of the candidates were fellows looking for work in July (as expected) and a few journeymen pathologists who jumped from job to job every 2-3 years. I did encounter a pathologist with FOUR fellowships (did a fellowship in something then got a PP job --> left job/let-go --> proceeded to do THREE more fellowships) and that was quite the surprise but an all too telling sign as to the candidate's quality. I interviewed one pathologist who sat across from me at lunch picking their teeth with a toothpick for a good 10 minutes while espousing the good works and deeds of CAP and vilifying pathologists who aren't members of the organization, "If you're not apart of CAP, then don't complain about the condition of our specialty." One applicant told me they liked to do yoga in the morning and couldn't be at work until maybe 9-930AM and asked if that would be a problem. That person ended up getting a job at a glorified POD lab somewhere in AK. I don't know if I'm getting trolled IRL or what.

Overall, the experience has been underwhelming to say the least. It seems like for every 50 applicants, maybe 2-3 are quality and exactly what you're looking for.

I am afraid that I might be in the wrong market AKA not a big city. It's been stated here before that there are plenty of jobs in the US -- I tend to agree with this statement. Jobs exist but it just depends if you want to be in a so called "desirable location." I tell every applicant I interview that we have two international airports so finding a way to travel isn't an issue. We are not in a rural area. I try to hype up the fact that our area has an extremely low cost of living and you can practically live like a king and do all the stuff that the whitecoat investor tells you not to do while still maximizing your retirement account, HSA, etc.

Anyway, in case any of you are looking for a chance of scenery, maybe our paths will cross in the near future.

Our experience also. We get occasional possible fits from advertised jobs, but the best candidates we have attracted typically come from word of mouth. Exactly the same kind of problem - get a bunch of applicants who aren't at all fits for the job (poor skills, unqualified, won't do the things that the job ad asks for, etc). We are not in a coastal elite area either and I have no idea whether that is a significant issue - I know it is for some applicants, but they typically don't apply. Part of the issue is that every job often has a spouse who needs to find a job too, and when that spouse is also a pathologist...

we actually lost a candidate we were going to offer to a very rural place, and most have multiple job offers.

Some also have weird demands like salary guarantees or work hours or refusal to do certain common things or whatever.

But this is SDN, where positive experiences are irrelevant and non-informative outlier anecdotes but negative experiences (even if they are second-hand) are evidence of a massive, systemic trend.

I don't know who is more out of touch - our actual practice or the people on this forum. I know what we are though. I know what we get paid and what we do. We work harder than many but it isn't extreme or anything like that. And it's in a favorable environment and hospital management. So, WTF, who knows. We have hired a lot of people over the last 5 years and with every struggle I come on these forums and just shake my head.

So yes, jobs definitely exist. Many are in the wrong location for whoever the applicant is, but many also are not the right fit. Maybe there are just a load of people out there with minimal skill, and those are the people here doing all the complaining. I don't know anymore.

 

[Unty]

Our experience also. We get occasional possible fits from advertised jobs, but the best candidates we have attracted typically come from word of mouth. Exactly the same kind of problem - get a bunch of applicants who aren't at all fits for the job (poor skills, unqualified, won't do the things that the job ad asks for, etc). We are not in a coastal elite area either and I have no idea whether that is a significant issue - I know it is for some applicants, but they typically don't apply. Part of the issue is that every job often has a spouse who needs to find a job too, and when that spouse is also a pathologist...

we actually lost a candidate we were going to offer to a very rural place, and most have multiple job offers.

Some also have weird demands like salary guarantees or work hours or refusal to do certain common things or whatever.

But this is SDN, where positive experiences are irrelevant and non-informative outlier anecdotes but negative experiences (even if they are second-hand) are evidence of a massive, systemic trend.

I don't know who is more out of touch - our actual practice or the people on this forum. I know what we are though. I know what we get paid and what we do. We work harder than many but it isn't extreme or anything like that. And it's in a favorable environment and hospital management. So, WTF, who knows. We have hired a lot of people over the last 5 years and with every struggle I come on these forums and just shake my head.

So yes, jobs definitely exist. Many are in the wrong location for whoever the applicant is, but many also are not the right fit. Maybe there are just a load of people out there with minimal skill, and those are the people here doing all the complaining. I don't know anymore.

There are jobs. Everyone I know who is board certified has a job. The jobs are scattered across the country some in good locations and some not depending on what the applicant is looking for.

Comments like pathology is a downtrodden field is a little too much.

Some regions of the country have a tight job market. You may have to move to secure a job but you can always move later to a more favorable location after a few years.

As you have mentioned I think there are too many programs not training residents well or subpar candidates or both. That’s why you are seeing people that have poor diagnostic skills or whatever.

I’ve observed residents who only like to sign out one area like GI. Then they are asked to do gen surgpath and don’t want to. Some like heme abd you ask them to do Cyto abd they don’t want to do it.

I know there are people out there who do not feel comfortable signing out derm, heme or Cyto unless they did a fellowship in it.

I think most people that I have trained with don’t feel comfortable managing a lab. There are a lot of crap CP training out there. Or residents who are AP/CP but shy away from their CP training because they aren’t interested in it.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Our experience also. We get occasional possible fits from advertised jobs, but the best candidates we have attracted typically come from word of mouth. Exactly the same kind of problem - get a bunch of applicants who aren't at all fits for the job (poor skills, unqualified, won't do the things that the job ad asks for, etc). We are not in a coastal elite area either and I have no idea whether that is a significant issue - I know it is for some applicants, but they typically don't apply. Part of the issue is that every job often has a spouse who needs to find a job too, and when that spouse is also a pathologist...

we actually lost a candidate we were going to offer to a very rural place, and most have multiple job offers.

Some also have weird demands like salary guarantees or work hours or refusal to do certain common things or whatever.

But this is SDN, where positive experiences are irrelevant and non-informative outlier anecdotes but negative experiences (even if they are second-hand) are evidence of a massive, systemic trend.

I don't know who is more out of touch - our actual practice or the people on this forum. I know what we are though. I know what we get paid and what we do. We work harder than many but it isn't extreme or anything like that. And it's in a favorable environment and hospital management. So, WTF, who knows. We have hired a lot of people over the last 5 years and with every struggle I come on these forums and just shake my head.

So yes, jobs definitely exist. Many are in the wrong location for whoever the applicant is, but many also are not the right fit. Maybe there are just a load of people out there with minimal skill, and those are the people here doing all the complaining. I don't know anymore.

The candidate that decided to go rural made a great choice. He/she will be living like a king and building a nice empire. I've know some rural pathologists that retired in their 40s.

Go rural my friends. If the town doesn't have a Bass Pro Shop in a 20 mile radius, don't even consider it.

 

[Thaitanium]

The candidate that decided to go rural made a great choice. He/she will be living like a king and building a nice empire. I've know some rural pathologists that retired in their 40s.

Go rural my friends. If the town doesn't have a Bass Pro Shop in a 20 mile radius, don't even consider it.

How much do rural pathologists make on average. Any idea?

 

[path24]

Pathology leadership enjoying the oversupply.

Some owners/employers want a choice of candidates. Some people want the candidates to have the choice. In Path, we like to have the owners/employers have all the choices. Keep the oversupply coming. (every other specialty gives the candidates choices) Stay away from path, your options will be severely limited.

 

[YBNJay]

I know there are people out there who do not feel comfortable signing out derm, heme or Cyto unless they did a fellowship in it.

I would ask, what is the point of doing a sub specialty fellowship if new general surg trainees are expected to be able to sign out Cyto, Derm, Heme, Nuro etc. on their own? Surely you cannot reasonably expect someone who spent a few months on a rotation 2+ years ago to be as proficient as a fellow who did nothing but study that discipline for an entire year.

 

[path24]

Here is a great opportunity to live in Lansing if you have 10+ years experience (all the other docs need 10+ years to work there also, right?). Welcome to the pathology job market. Correction: Rosy pathology job market.

Sparrow Health System (SHS) is seeking an enthusiastic and dedicated, full-time experienced BC Pathologist to join their department located in Lansing, Michigan.

Minimum Requirements:
AP/CP Board Certified
10 - 15 years experience
Cytology boards preferred

 

[deleted314957]

I wonder if the Pritzker private equity group is trying to go for an IPO or a buy out. I would bet on a buy out by labcorps or quest. Ameripath went private after a rather ”blah” IPO then went private with Welch, Carson Anderson and Stowe. They arranged the sale to Quest rather than a repeat IPO after “incubation”.

 

[Unty]

I would ask, what is the point of doing a sub specialty fellowship if new general surg trainees are expected to be able to sign out Cyto, Derm, Heme, Nuro etc. on their own? Surely you cannot reasonably expect someone who spent a few months on a rotation 2+ years ago to be as proficient as a fellow who did nothing but study that discipline for an entire year.

Yeah I know attendings who only sign out heme or only sign out surgpath and cyto. It’s a malpractice suit waiting to happen if someone forced you to sign out something you aren’t comfortable in signing out but some places expect you to do it all: surgpath, cyto and heme but you can show cases around.

 

[Unty]

Here is a great opportunity to live in Lansing if you have 10+ years experience (all the other docs need 10+ years to work there also, right?). Welcome to the pathology job market. Correction: Rosy pathology job market.

Sparrow Health System (SHS) is seeking an enthusiastic and dedicated, full-time experienced BC Pathologist to join their department located in Lansing, Michigan.

Minimum Requirements:
AP/CP Board Certified
10 - 15 years experience
Cytology boards preferred

There are jobs that will consider fresh grads out of fellowship.

Primary care has a better job market than Pathology if you consider only online job searches. Primary care you can also get a job in a big metropolitan city (if that’s your preference) while that’s not always the case in Pathology.

If anyone wants to challenge me on this I’m ready to listen.

 

[path24]

There are jobs that will consider fresh grads out of fellowship.

Primary care has a better job market than Pathology if you consider only online job searches. Primary care you can also get a job in a big metropolitan city (if that’s your preference) while that’s not always the case in Pathology.

If anyone wants to challenge me on this I’m ready to listen.

Its a basic pathology job. 10+ years experience needed. Really? What other type of docs needed 10+ years of experience to practice in Lansing? This job should consider fresh grads. They don't have to. They decide, due to the massive oversupply.

Just showing that once you go into pathology. A lot of things regarding your career are out of your hands. You are a commodity that brings virtually nothing to the table.

 

[gbwillner]

Its a basic pathology job. 10+ years experience needed. Really? What other type of docs needed 10+ years of experience to practice in Lansing? This job should consider fresh grads. They don't have to. They decide, due to the massive oversupply.

Just showing that once you go into pathology. A lot of things regarding your career are out of your hands. You are a commodity that brings virtually nothing to the table.

Not sure that it is a good argument to pick an ad for a single group and use it as evidence of the marketplace. They may be a bunch of old farts that sit around and yell at clouds and don't want a young person to spoil their grumpy old man party. Or maybe they really think it takes 10+ years to adequately sign out a Pap smear. Who knows?

The field is definitely changing. The future standard may be this, where it will be expected that all new grads take "clinical track" academic jobs or work for quest for 10 years before they are eligible to join a private group. MAYBE oversupply damages the private doc's ability to get adequate compensation, but it may also not change the landscape where corporations are slowly eating up all the private groups to create monopolies in health care. If the latter, decreasing pathology trainees may have no major effect on this process.

 

[Unty]

Not sure that it is a good argument to pick an ad for a single group and use it as evidence of the marketplace. They may be a bunch of old farts that sit around and yell at clouds and don't want a young person to spoil their grumpy old man party. Or maybe they really think it takes 10+ years to adequately sign out a Pap smear. Who knows?

The field is definitely changing. The future standard may be this, where it will be expected that all new grads take "clinical track" academic jobs or work for quest for 10 years before they are eligible to join a private group. MAYBE oversupply damages the private doc's ability to get adequate compensation, but it may also not change the landscape where corporations are slowly eating up all the private groups to create monopolies in health care. If the latter, decreasing pathology trainees may have no major effect on this process.

Private groups who want folks to signout everything in addition to manage a lab don’t want folks who only sign out biopsies and paps all day at Quest.

 

[Unty]

Its a basic pathology job. 10+ years experience needed. Really? What other type of docs needed 10+ years of experience to practice in Lansing? This job should consider fresh grads. They don't have to. They decide, due to the massive oversupply.

Just showing that once you go into pathology. A lot of things regarding your career are out of your hands. You are a commodity that brings virtually nothing to the table.

Yeah not sure that’s a good job ad to exemplify the job market. I saw that ad and it’s for a leadership position so they are looking for someone more experienced and senior like picking someone for a chair of an academic department.

 

[yaah]

3 of the last 4 people we hired have been new grads (an anecdote that will be ignored be you all). None of them are going to be medical directors of large labs immediately or even within a year or two. They will all be full partners of our group within 3.5 years, with equalizing pay until then. They all have an equal say in our group meetings upon day of starting. Hopefully eventually though they will be ready to be medical directors. If you're looking for someone to take over medical directorship of a larger lab, you don't want a new grad. Use some common sense, people.

You guys are forever moving the goal posts. And your complaints lose a ton of credibility when people realize you've making making the same complaints for 15 years and yet here you are, still complaining and cherry picking anecdotes as evidence (Hey look, it's a job ad that looks like a good position - hey wait, it sucks because you need 10 years experience!). It doesn't have to be extreme - 100% bad vs 100% good. Every job and career has good and bad points. Compare to dermatology and family practice all you want - go into those fields if you want. You've all been here 15 years complaining which is more than enough time to go put in your 3-4 years of returning to residency and get that sweet job you think is out there.

It seems more that your real goal is to try to get OTHER people out of the field, so that you won't have to work as hard. If it's so easy to find someone, why don't you all hire someone really cheap to do your work for you and make the profits off of them? You can be just like those unethical groups that only make a couple of the members actual partners.

There are obviously ways to improve pathology. And there are obviously bad things about the field at present. And just as obviously there are good things about the field. (not speaking to the poster directly above me) Stop being so extreme, people might respect your opinions more.

I also get the sense that very few of you ever seem to be in the position of actually hiring new people and mentoring them.

 

[Med Director New England]

3 of the last 4 people we hired have been new grads (an anecdote that will be ignored be you all). None of them are going to be medical directors of large labs immediately or even within a year or two. They will all be full partners of our group within 3.5 years, with equalizing pay until then. They all have an equal say in our group meetings upon day of starting. Hopefully eventually though they will be ready to be medical directors. If you're looking for someone to take over medical directorship of a larger lab, you don't want a new grad. Use some common sense, people.

You guys are forever moving the goal posts. And your complaints lose a ton of credibility when people realize you've making making the same complaints for 15 years and yet here you are, still complaining and cherry picking anecdotes as evidence (Hey look, it's a job ad that looks like a good position - hey wait, it sucks because you need 10 years experience!). It doesn't have to be extreme - 100% bad vs 100% good. Every job and career has good and bad points. Compare to dermatology and family practice all you want - go into those fields if you want. You've all been here 15 years complaining which is more than enough time to go put in your 3-4 years of returning to residency and get that sweet job you think is out there.

It seems more that your real goal is to try to get OTHER people out of the field, so that you won't have to work as hard. If it's so easy to find someone, why don't you all hire someone really cheap to do your work for you and make the profits off of them? You can be just like those unethical groups that only make a couple of the members actual partners.

There are obviously ways to improve pathology. And there are obviously bad things about the field at present. And just as obviously there are good things about the field. (not speaking to the poster directly above me) Stop being so extreme, people might respect your opinions more.

I also get the sense that very few of you ever seem to be in the position of actually hiring new people and mentoring them.

I am in a leadership position now and previously in an academic setting. Also been involved in recruiting and hiring multiple pathologists in the last few years.

 

[path24]

Yeah not sure that’s a good job ad to exemplify the job market. I saw that ad and it’s for a leadership position so they are looking for someone more experienced and senior like picking someone for a chair of an academic department.

I missed the leadership position (whatever that means).

Moving the goal posts. Nope. When does that upcoming shortage start again? How many years is path going to move that freaking goal post?

When looking at Doc job markets. Pathology is very close or at the bottom. Med students deserve this knowledge (and has been down there for a long time).

 

[Unty]

I missed the leadership position (whatever that means).

Moving the goal posts. Nope. When does that upcoming shortage start again? How many years is path going to move that freaking goal post?

When looking at Doc job markets. Pathology is very close or at the bottom. Med students deserve this knowledge (and has been down there for a long time).

Yeah med students need to know about the job market. I guess we should go retrain in a different field.

I continue to rant because I see a disconnect between what some ppl say as a good job market versus what I’m seeing online or hearing from people.

 

[yaah]

Yeah med students need to know about the job market. I guess we should go retrain in a different field.

I continue to rant because I see a disconnect between what some ppl say as a good job market versus what I’m seeing online or hearing from people.

OK, and I continue to see a disconnect between what people say is a horrible job market on here vs what I'm seeing or hearing in real life. And I am not in academics, nor am I an employed physician or reference lab employee.

 

[Spikebd]

OK, and I continue to see a disconnect between what people say is a horrible job market on here vs what I'm seeing or hearing in real life. And I am not in academics, nor am I an employed physician or reference lab employee.

I don’t know any fellows from my program who didn’t get a job, some sounded pretty sweet. All seem happy with what they got. None academic either. Some of the pay sounded solid too. Not sure about the work hours or anything else was but they seemed happy! Im sure it’s different for everyone, and of course it’s not as easy as primary care, but it seems like there are jobs out there... I’m just gonna keep working and hope for the best

 

[yaah]

Yeah, all you can do is seek out multiple opinions (most helpfully from real people with something in common with your situation). So much of pathology job acquirement is based on timing. Your skills might be perfect for a certain group, but they just went through a hiring cycle and they aren't anticipating hiring anyone for years. If it's truly a job you think you would love, most of these groups will still be interested in hearing from you because you never know what happens in the future. We often keep names of people on file and go back to them years later. Hired 2 people in the past year precisely this way, one of whom interviewed with us 8 years ago and another 5 years ago.

 

[Unty]

OK, and I continue to see a disconnect between what people say is a horrible job market on here vs what I'm seeing or hearing in real life. And I am not in academics, nor am I an employed physician or reference lab employee.

This is my third time saying this.

Post jobs online in regards to jobs in the NE, Chicagoland area and the LA area and we can compare with the number of graduating residents from those areas.

I’m not saying the job market sucks but it’s not good in certain regions of the country. You can just post the number of jobs you found (nonacademic). Pathoutlines lists 3 hemepath jobs from the same company in Tinley Park, IL. That’s it for the whole friggin Chicagoland area.

Hematogenix-needs 3 hemepath trained folks. I’ve seen this job listing there for the past year or two. That’s it. The other are academic jobs at Northwestern and UIC and in those cases if you arent trained in a particular fellowship then you’re out of luck. I’ve see a handful of jobs in the Chicagoland area in the past 5 YEARS.

Now let’s talk about the NE, Massachusetts job market. BUPath posted a GU job in the jobs thread in Manchester, CT. I think there is a job in the Boston area at Hallmark Pathology looking for a GI/Surgpath trained path. There are two jobs at University Pathologists in Mass for a surgpath and GI Path which require at least 3 years experience in each job. Now if you don’t have these fellowships or experience under your belt, tough luck.

I think I saw another job in CT online somewhere and two other jobs in the Boston area. That’s it.

In these two regions, there must be 40+ residents graduating per year. Where do these folks get their jobs?????

I guess you are left with cold calling practices to see if there are any openings.

Now what I think is that jobs in these areas may be by word of mouth and those in these areas may be getting jobs via that route (to stay in the area). Someone in private practice sends an email to the program directors asking for someone they’d recommend and others will never hear about it. I think that’s what may be happening because I don’t know where all these residents get jobs?

In that case, if you aren’t in the loop, tough luck.

I mean just think about it. Why would you want to pay Nat Pernick and Pathoutlines $1000 or so bucks to post a job when you can just email a program director ir someone you trained with who you trust?

I was once told in an interview that there were no jobs, if any, in the particular state I interviewed at in the NE. I also have seen few jobs in the NE online as I just mentioned. There are some, but considering all the folks graduating from these programs and the number of jobs I’m seeing online, it doesn’t look good to me.

Feel free to prove me wrong by showing me jobs I may have missed online.

CAP Data is great but I dont see a reflection of a good job market in those areas I mentioned in an online job search.

I also do think there are good job markets out there, Texas may be one.

 

[yaah]

I have also said, many, many times, that regional considerations are a huge factor. I don't disagree with anything you posted except that saying there isn't much point in paying $ to post your job ad. Because there are dozens of open jobs on path outlines. So there clearly is a point to it. Regional factors are huge. So many new grads are married to other new grads or other professional people who need to be in bigger metro areas. It's hard! As difficult as the job search can be, it's orders of magnitudes tougher when you have to find jobs for two people. Then there are the two-pathologist couples.

But yes, there has been pretty significant consolidation in certain regions (especially northeast). Not many private groups left I don't think. This is sad.

 

[Unty]

I have also said, many, many times, that regional considerations are a huge factor. I don't disagree with anything you posted except that saying there isn't much point in paying $ to post your job ad. Because there are dozens of open jobs on path outlines. So there clearly is a point to it. Regional factors are huge. So many new grads are married to other new grads or other professional people who need to be in bigger metro areas. It's hard! As difficult as the job search can be, it's orders of magnitudes tougher when you have to find jobs for two people. Then there are the two-pathologist couples.

But yes, there has been pretty significant consolidation in certain regions (especially northeast). Not many private groups left I don't think. This is sad.

Good to hear you agree. The job market is not good in those areas.

 

[yaah]

Good to hear you agree. The job market is not good in those areas.

Is that just assumption or hearsay though? I understand all the data you are posting. It makes sense that it would be a bad job market. It's a valid assumption given data we have. But it would also be a valid assumption that we would have 5-10 excellent candidates for our open positions, and we don't. Is there anyone in existing groups in these areas that has tried to hire?

The other question is how pathology is changing relative to the rest of medicine. So much of medicine is changing to employment-based practice - private groups and independent doctors are going away in favor of large multispecialty groups or hospital employment, I know this is happening in path too but there are still outliers. Hospital consolidation reduces that and IMHO often reduces number of pathologists covering each hospital. Part of the irony - hospital consolidation seems to lead to increased demand for some specialties but decreased demand for others because of efficiency and such.

 

[gbwillner]

This is my third time saying this.

Post jobs online in regards to jobs in the NE, Chicagoland area and the LA area and we can compare with the number of graduating residents from those areas.

I’m not saying the job market sucks but it’s not good in certain regions of the country. You can just post the number of jobs you found (nonacademic). Pathoutlines lists 3 hemepath jobs from the same company in Tinley Park, IL. That’s it for the whole friggin Chicagoland area.

Hematogenix-needs 3 hemepath trained folks. I’ve seen this job listing there for the past year or two. That’s it. The other are academic jobs at Northwestern and UIC and in those cases if you arent trained in a particular fellowship then you’re out of luck. I’ve see a handful of jobs in the Chicagoland area in the past 5 YEARS.

Now let’s talk about the NE, Massachusetts job market. BUPath posted a GU job in the jobs thread in Manchester, CT. I think there is a job in the Boston area at Hallmark Pathology looking for a GI/Surgpath trained path. There are two jobs at University Pathologists in Mass for a surgpath and GI Path which require at least 3 years experience in each job. Now if you don’t have these fellowships or experience under your belt, tough luck.

I think I saw another job in CT online somewhere and two other jobs in the Boston area. That’s it.

In these two regions, there must be 40+ residents graduating per year. Where do these folks get their jobs?????

I guess you are left with cold calling practices to see if there are any openings.

Now what I think is that jobs in these areas may be by word of mouth and those in these areas may be getting jobs via that route (to stay in the area). Someone in private practice sends an email to the program directors asking for someone they’d recommend and others will never hear about it. I think that’s what may be happening because I don’t know where all these residents get jobs?

In that case, if you aren’t in the loop, tough luck.

I mean just think about it. Why would you want to pay Nat Pernick and Pathoutlines $1000 or so bucks to post a job when you can just email a program director ir someone you trained with who you trust?

I was once told in an interview that there were no jobs, if any, in the particular state I interviewed at in the NE. I also have seen few jobs in the NE online as I just mentioned. There are some, but considering all the folks graduating from these programs and the number of jobs I’m seeing online, it doesn’t look good to me.

Feel free to prove me wrong by showing me jobs I may have missed online.

CAP Data is great but I dont see a reflection of a good job market in those areas I mentioned in an online job search.

I also do think there are good job markets out there, Texas may be one.

I think many of us here just talk past each other. Your main argument does not seem to be that the pathology market is bad, even in the chicago area, as much as your lament that the hiring process does not leverage the internet and instead relies on word-of-mouth.

Look, path is a small field. When I wanted to hire a few years ago I did not rely on postings. I reached out to my buddies running top programs and asked them to recommend their top candidates. My goal was top candidates, not a fair process for all trainees.

 

[Unty]

Is that just assumption or hearsay though? I understand all the data you are posting. It makes sense that it would be a bad job market. It's a valid assumption given data we have. But it would also be a valid assumption that we would have 5-10 excellent candidates for our open positions, and we don't. Is there anyone in existing groups in these areas that has tried to hire?

The other question is how pathology is changing relative to the rest of medicine. So much of medicine is changing to employment-based practice - private groups and independent doctors are going away in favor of large multispecialty groups or hospital employment, I know this is happening in path too but there are still outliers. Hospital consolidation reduces that and IMHO often reduces number of pathologists covering each hospital. Part of the irony - hospital consolidation seems to lead to increased demand for some specialties but decreased demand for others because of efficiency and such.

I haven’t seen many jobs posted in the Chicagoland area for the past 5-10 years since I’ve been on SDN. Have the practices in these areas been looking to hire? I don’t know if they have or have not. I’m wondering if these practices just call up the local program director and ask for the best candidate and hence the lack of online job postings. Or is it really that there are no jobs. So where do all the graduates go for jobs?

If you take only online job postings into account the market does not look good in Chicago or Boston relative to the number of grads per year.

 

[Unty]

I think many of us here just talk past each other. Your main argument does not seem to be that the pathology market is bad, even in the chicago area, as much as your lament that the hiring process does not leverage the internet and instead relies on word-of-mouth.

Look, path is a small field. When I wanted to hire a few years ago I did not rely on postings. I reached out to my buddies running top programs and asked them to recommend their top candidates. My goal was top candidates, not a fair process for all trainees.

My argument is that the path job market is not good in bigger cities, like Boston and Chicago. From private messages from people here in the past and colleagues, they said the Path job market in Chicago is tight.

I wish someone from a program in these cities could let us know where graduates go for jobs and how did they obtain their job. That would be something I’d like to know.

The fact that you call your buddies means new grads are getting jobs by word of mouth (which I already know occurs). Others who are not so lucky are left to look for jobs online which does not look good for those that want to be in or near Chicago for example.

The job market isn’t bad overall since everyone I know has a job. From reading what other people have posted here there seems to be different experiences from grads. Some get multiple job offers and some only get one offer after applying to 20-30 jobs (a friend of mine).

 

[cmz]

I need THREE pathologists right this very moment. All candidates must be able to manage/handle general surgical pathology and general clinical laboratory issues, especially blood bank. I am in dire need of a cytopathologist who can interpret EUS/EBUS specimens. I am also in need of a neuropathologist because we have a high volume of neuro surgicals. I am also in need of a solid hematopathologist. I am offering competitive pay based on experience, med-mal, health insurance, 401K, and the possibility of partnership track.

If you're interested in making a move, shoot me a PM. I can provide more details if you're absolutely serious.

In the coming months, there will be another wave of hiring for additional spots that I can foresee opening up.

Jobs exist, folks.

 

[yaah]

My argument is that the path job market is not good in bigger cities, like Boston and Chicago. From private messages from people here in the past and colleagues, they said the Path job market in Chicago is tight.

I wish someone from a program in these cities could let us know where graduates go for jobs and how did they obtain their job. That would be something I’d like to know.

The fact that you call your buddies means new grads are getting jobs by word of mouth (which I already know occurs). Others who are not so lucky are left to look for jobs online which does not look good for those that want to be in or near Chicago for example.

The job market isn’t bad overall since everyone I know has a job. From reading what other people have posted here there seems to be different experiences from grads. Some get multiple job offers and some only get one offer after applying to 20-30 jobs (a friend of mine).

Isn't that in part because big cities are mostly academic center territory? Are there actually good private jobs in chicago? Some reference lab jobs, I'm sure, although I thought a lot of those were outside of bigger cities to save the expense of being in a city. Has always seemed to me like medium sized cities (like 100-200,000 population) or suburbs are the best places to find better private jobs.

 

[Unty]

Isn't that in part because big cities are mostly academic center territory? Are there actually good private jobs in chicago? Some reference lab jobs, I'm sure, although I thought a lot of those were outside of bigger cities to save the expense of being in a city. Has always seemed to me like medium sized cities (like 100-200,000 population) or suburbs are the best places to find better private jobs.

Yes there are private practice groups in the neighboring suburbs. Maybe not in Chicago proper as in downtown where Northwestern, Rush, etc are but there are groups that send pathologists to hospitals in the north suburbs of Chicago (Advocate health) . There are groups in the west suburbs of Chicago. I agree downtown Chicago are all academic programs but there are groups in the surrounding suburbs like 15-20 minutes from downtown or even 30 minutes out. No jobs posted. Are these ppl calling the academic programs and asking for the best candidate? Maybe. That may be the reason why we aren’t seeing many if any jobs posted online within a 1-2 hour radius of Chicago.

I’ve seen jobs in Peoria abd Decatur which are 2-3 hours out but none nearby Chicago. Like one job from each of those places.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Not living in or near Chicago is a blessing. Hate that place. Last time I was there there were some dudes kicking cars for fun.

Go rural

 

[Unty]

Not living in or near Chicago is a blessing. Hate that place. Last time I was there there were some dudes kicking cars for fun.

Go rural

You shoulda put a bass pro shop fishing pole where that sun don’t shine then!!!!

Bunch of cornfields 2 hours out of Chicago. You can at least pick corn, do some fishing, freeze your ass off in the winters while working as a pathologist.

 

[tiredguy]

.

 

[turtle1966]

That's fine to have that preference, but they shouldn't be surprised when the best thing they can find in the 90 mile radius they're willing to live is an instructor position for $120k.
When new grads talk to me looking for $300k+ starting salaries with 8 weeks PTO in downtown major cities, I just tell them good luck.

Unlike tech/finance/big law, doctors actually have to staff the sprawling post-apocolyptic cultural wasteland of rural America. I can guarantee if our group has an opening for one of our downtown hospitals in a highly desirable location, it will be staffed internally (or rarely with an experienced external candidate).

Sorry to bring this up here. 200, 300, 350K, etc a year?

Did you know that a DDS, oral surgeon charges 2800.00 for less than one hour of work for a dental implant? Did you know a DDS, endodontist charges at least 1000.00 for 20 -30 min of work? What is wrong here?

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

You shoulda put a bass pro shop fishing pole where that sun don’t shine then!!!!

Bunch of cornfields 2 hours out of Chicago. You can at least pick corn, do some fishing, freeze your ass off in the winters while working as a pathologist.

I'm quite content living in Kentucky on thousands of acres, making millions each year.

Go rural, best decision you will ever make.

 

[Guest8]

I'm quite content living in Kentucky on thousands of acres, making millions each year.

Go rural, best decision you will ever make.

No thanks. I'd rather make thousands and live near the ocean any day.

 

[Unty]

No thanks. I'd rather make thousands and live near the ocean any day.

agree give me a nice house on the beach by the ocean I will be happy. Laguna beach, Manhattan beach in Los Angeles. A place on the beach in Hawaii. Wake up go surfing, jog along the beach or just listen to the waves.

 

[Spikebd]

Sorry to bring this up here. 200, 300, 350K, etc a year?

Did you know that a DDS, oral surgeon charges 2800.00 for less than one hour of work for a dental implant? Did you know a DDS, endodontist charges at least 1000.00 for 20 -30 min of work? What is wrong here?

Pathology is absolutely dominated by academicians. In these environments, any thoughts or comments that are even slightly to the right of Hillary clinton will Get you put on a “disrupter” list. So if you say you support low taxes, gun rights, and feel hard work should be rewarded with high pay... well, prepare to be blacklisted.

 

[deleted314957]

Sorry to bring this up here. 200, 300, 350K, etc a year?

Did you know that a DDS, oral surgeon charges 2800.00 for less than one hour of work for a dental implant? Did you know a DDS, endodontist charges at least 1000.00 for 20 -30 min of work? What is wrong here?

The problem is a fundamental difference in the way physicians and dentists are paid. Dental insurance is not like medical insurance. Also, their fees are not controlled with the draconian hand of CMS/medicare.

Sucks when you can’t get into med school.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[deleted314957]

I'm quite content living in Kentucky on thousands of acres, making millions each year.

Go rural, best decision you will ever make.

I don’t mind rural but you are in real poverty/heroin hell, aren’t you. (i mean geographically)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Thr0mbus]

Pathology is absolutely dominated by academicians. In these environments, any thoughts or comments that are even slightly to the right of Hillary clinton will Get you put on a “disrupter” list. So if you say you support low taxes, gun rights, and feel hard work should be rewarded with high pay... well, prepare to be blacklisted.

ACADEMICS = a bunch of DOG FACED PONY SOLDIERS!

 

[MetroPath]

 

[ScubaV]

Looks like Thrombus needs to get a Twitter account