Cardio application discussion thread: '08-09 version

[bulldog3]

Rejection from Cedars Sinai after keeping on hold for 2 months!!! I don't care now. Does anyone have the feeling that competition this year is slightly less than last year???

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[Ashrouf]

I have several friends agonizing through the process - so for those of you cancelling interviews, I would urge you to do it as soon as you have decided not to go - you never know, it could make the difference for another applicant. This is directed at anyone, I figure most people are cancelling expediently.

I agree 100%. This interview process has been just flat out wierd.

Anyone hear anything about University of Missouri - Columbia. I have heard some chatter that they are getting cited. Is that true?

 

[anxiousagain]

am just trying 2 get an idea what pple out there r thinking ?

Its the first week of April, so am assuming that almost all programs r done inviting..My last interview is on May 8th and I just got the invite last week..I think its crazy late, but am not complaining one bit (considering I only have 7 interviews) and haven't recieved any flirtatious offers from any of the programs so far....

Are many programs conducting late interviews this season ? Also,has anyone heard from Temple, MCG etc...

Good luck !

 

[TONY MOSCU]

Hallo, my name is Toni Moscu and I am from Romania (east Europe), cardiology specialist and I am looking to initiate a private office, and first of all I need a heart ecograph.Romania is a werry Low budget country, I am looking for a second hand well conditioning ultrasound system. If somebody can tell me where can I search for it I will be thankfull.
Regardes Dr. Tony Moscu

 

[dragonfly99]

Dr. Moscu,
I just did a Google search using the words, "used medical equipment" and I got a lot of results. I think you could get a good result by trying that.

 

[Larry Renal]

Rejection from Cedars Sinai after keeping on hold for 2 months!!! I don't care now. Does anyone have the feeling that competition this year is slightly less than last year???

I didn't apply last year...what gives you the idea competition is down? I hope so...

Lar

 

[bulldog3]

I didn't apply last year...what gives you the idea competition is down? I hope so...

Lar

People are getting 6-8 interviews with weak CV like me contrary to many well qualified candidates last year who got less than 3-4 interviews

 

[bulldog3]

Future cardiologist, This forum has been extraordinarily helpful to all of us in giving us an idea about where we stand! Now that IV/REJ process is almost over, it will be helpful if you can post your experiences with the interviews. I recently interviewed at Toledo, program is nice, but I felt associate PD is very arrogant. They also raised a question about my visa status. This is definitely not my first choice again!

 

[California]

USC (University of Southern California) is offering interviews. Finally, heard from Scripps Clinic as well, which is notoriously slow and only offers less than 20 interviews. Good luck to everyone.

 

[OnePointSixOne]

If a program sends you a thank you letter should you take it as a good sign? If they do not, should you assume they were not impressed? Is there any bearing on your potential place in their rank order list?

I guess thats allot of questions.

 

[Jac1]

UT Houston

 

[OptimusPrime]

well this week i heard back from the last few programs i was waiting on. All in all can't complain too much about my final numbers, well I can but I'll just be greatful ;-)

Now to finish up the interviews and the MATCH... dun dun dun!!!

It seems the '08-09 thread is coming to an end. thanks for all the feedback and help. it has been a pleasure y'all. best of luck with interviews and good luck with the match.

Hopefully next time I'll make my way back to these forums will be when I apply for interventional... haha j/k

OP

 

[liveinsea]

People are getting 6-8 interviews with weak CV like me contrary to many well qualified candidates last year who got less than 3-4 interviews

I agree. During my interviews, almost every candidates got more than 6 IV this year.

 

[dukeblue01]

While at Cleveland Clinic, the PD said that this was the most competitive group he had interviewed in over 10 years. This is probably confounded by selection bias (his interview pool vs. the entire applicant pool) but I thought it was an interesting statement.

 

[doc20]

question for the applicants with masters degree or just anyone!
does have a masters such as MPH really help in getting cardio or spot? how so or why not?

 

[dragonfly99]

If a program sends you a thank you letter should you take it as a good sign? If they do not, should you assume they were not impressed? Is there any bearing on your potential place in their rank order list?

I guess thats allot of questions.

No I do not think it means anything one way or the other. I never got a letter from a program when I went through the cards match and matched. If they are sending a letter it's just probably a form letter to everyone, to try to get people to rank THEM higher. Not getting a letter means nothing either.

 

[dadr]

If a program sends you a thank you letter should you take it as a good sign? If they do not, should you assume they were not impressed? Is there any bearing on your potential place in their rank order list?

A general thank you letter from a PD is a nice gesture, but is neither sensitive nor specific so to speak. If you get personalized correspondence (written or verbal) with details about your ranking potential, that is different, and may indicate you are a "person of interest" on their rank list.

However, as with all pre-match communication, you never know what it exactly means. I did get calls from two PDs stating that I would be "guaranteed" to match at their program. If true (and one can never be certain), I took it to mean if the program had n spots, I was ranked somewhere between 1 and n. One other PD wrote I would be in an "extremely favorable position" to match; this could mean that I was ranked somewhere in the range from which they historically fill.

I don't recall getting any special communication from my top choice program, and ended up matching there (the three programs alluded to above I ranked 2-3-4). But who knows, at my top program I could've been last on their rank list, hence no special communication, any they just had to go that deep to fill their spots.

In sum, take it with a grain of salt. On the applicant side, I sent multiple carefully worded letters about intent to rank programs highly. Not misleading; I sent one "top rank" letter, one other which was very strong but did not technically say "top rank" (I was still up in the air on that one), and a couple "highly rank" letters.

 

[OnePointSixOne]

A general thank you letter from a PD is a nice gesture, but is neither sensitive nor specific so to speak. If you get personalized correspondence (written or verbal) with details about your ranking potential, that is different, and may indicate you are a "person of interest" on their rank list.

However, as with all pre-match communication, you never know what it exactly means. I did get calls from two PDs stating that I would be "guaranteed" to match at their program. If true (and one can never be certain), I took it to mean if the program had n spots, I was ranked somewhere between 1 and n. One other PD wrote I would be in an "extremely favorable position" to match; this could mean that I was ranked somewhere in the range from which they historically fill.

I don't recall getting any special communication from my top choice program, and ended up matching there (the three programs alluded to above I ranked 2-3-4). But who knows, at my top program I could've been last on their rank list, hence no special communication, any they just had to go that deep to fill their spots.

In sum, take it with a grain of salt. On the applicant side, I sent multiple carefully worded letters about intent to rank programs highly. Not misleading; I sent one "top rank" letter, one other which was very strong but did not technically say "top rank" (I was still up in the air on that one), and a couple "highly rank" letters.

Thank you for the nice analysis. I guess it is relay impossible to have any certainty. That brings me to my next and newest dilemma. What do you do when offered a spot outside the match? (Normally this would be great news but if its not your top choice then you have to make a sacrifice.)

A bird in the hand or a bird in the tree?

 

[dragonfly99]

onepointsixone
This happened to me...well kind of. One place strongly hinted that they'd give me a contract outside the match, but that I'd have to ask for it/declare myself interested. I did not take the spot. There was another place where I interviewed that I know gives spots outside the match, but they didn't offer one to me...I would have taken the spot from this place, but not the one that offered me one. I thought there were problems with the training program, which was not the best, and I honestly thought that I could match so I was not desperate enough to take it.

I think what you have to think about is what is your overall chance of matching? How many interviews do you have? How likely are you to get a spot somewhere you like better? Does the place that offered you a spot take any people from the match, or give out all spots outside the match? If they still use the match, but just give out a few outside the match, then you might still get a spot from them in the match, as long as you don't burn any bridges. Remember, if you are still a PGY2 resident or something, there WILL be a next year if you don't get in now...of course, you might not have a free/guaranteed spot at that place next year, if you turn them down now...though you might, conceivably.

I think if I was offered some place that was not my top choice, but was somewhere the middle of my list and that I thought I would like OK, and I didn't want to do academics (so prestige doesn't matter), I might take the spot. If it's somewhere that would be @the bottom of your list, or you think you might not rank at all, then would lean away from taking it. No definite right answers here. Whatever you do, I would not burn any bridges...act really nice to the program, tell them you are flattered to be considered, and if you are planning to rank them, then tell them so. Do not feel pressured to accept an offer during the interview, though. If they really want you, likely they'll be willing to wait a few days to hear back from you.

My impression is that programs do this usually because there is something undesirable about the program (not always, but usually). They pick people who would be likely to do well as fellows, but who are not a shoe-in to match at some prestigious place, and they offer you the spot hoping you will take it. They think you are at least as good, or better, than what they would get in the Match. They play on the applicants' fear of not matching anywhere in order to fill their programs. Second group of programs that do this are ones that are fairly desirable, but tend to not do quite as well in the Match as they would like (cushy private hospital but maybe not a lot of academic prestige). These will go for pretty strong residents from fairly well known programs, offer them a spot in exchange for dropping out of the Match...they end up with good fellows, and if the fellow just wants to do private practice and/or just wants to know where they are going, this can be an OK outcome for the fellow.

If I were an IMG/FMG, I might just take any decent spot offered to me, because the odds of not matching appear to be greater than for US grads.

 

[Mixmaster]

Did anyone get off this UIC waitlist?

 

[openhorizons]

Thanks for all useful information , i am IMG (on J1 visa) currently PGY1 IM at community affiliated hospital, i realize how difficult it is for an IMG especially coming from small program to get into Cardio fellowship,but i don't believe it is impossible!
Since i am applying at the end of this year for a Cardio fellowship,i have average scores, i wonder what is best things to do to enhance my application, what kind of researches is favourable? (case reports, clinical trials.....etc).does poster presentation help? and which meetings are prefered to present? which journals are best to publish? i welcome any input.

best of luck for all..

 

[dragonfly99]

Any research helps, but in general case reports and posters are not as helpful as having done bench research or clinical research. This is because everyone knows it is pretty easy to put together a case report, but it takes more time and effort to produce original research. However, it can be hard to find good research projects as a resident. Anything is better than nothing.
If you can publish in a high impact journal that is of course better than some regional or state medical journal. If you can present at a cardiovascular meeting like the AHA or ACC, that will get people's notice...however, for most of us that wasn't possible. It would generally take a great mentor to get you that kind of experience as a resident.

 

[Angioplasty]

If a program sends you a thank you letter should you take it as a good sign? If they do not, should you assume they were not impressed? Is there any bearing on your potential place in their rank order list?

I guess thats allot of questions.

Let me tell you my experience last year.

In general nothing is guarenteed until you get a spot and sign the contract.

1 program send me 2 emails saying that I will be ranked very highly in their program. I also talked to him personally during ACC and he promised me I would be on their top ranks. I did not match there. This was 2nd choice.

The program I matched told me pretty much I am very high on the rank order list. Fellows from the program emailed me saying that I would be good fit. I matched in this program and later came to know I was ranked no. 1 in their program (I think it was true as the information was from a reliable source.(5th choice)

1 PD called me into my cell phone and told me I would be on top on their rank list (6th choice).

3 other PDs (4th choice, 9th, 11th), I got very positive feedback. Surely I did not match into my 4th choice.

"Cardiology is very competitive and many program not even go down beyond their number of spots. So if you are 6-10 ranks on a program with 5 spots, you are very competitively ranked, but still may not match there. PDs will convey the message and will give strong feed back, still you wont be matched there"

Also there will be lot of factors will come to play during the ranking process i.e. Some programs have their internal candidates, Chairman's candidate, PD's candidate, IM Chairman's candidate, Chief Residents in the same program.
Dont keep your hopes high until you get the match results (except if the PD says you are my no. 1 candidate)

Good Luck

 

[dragonfly99]

Agree...don't believe anything people tell you...but just be really nice to them. I do think getting the amount of feedback this poster got from programs was a bit unusual...he probably was ranked highly, even @some of the places he didn't match...just not high enough to match. A lot of programs don't know how deep into their rank list they will go, so they may phone, etc. the top 10-15 people, even though they only end up going down to #8 that year in the end.

I think some programs definitely go below #10 on their rank list...I know one place told me after the match (1st year I tried to get cards fellowship) that I was ranked 15 and they went down to #13 on their rank list. There was a program a couple years ago that interviewed 30 and then didn't match their 4 spots, so obviously some people didn't rank them, and/or all the people they interviewed were very competitive and got their higher-ranked programs.

I think you have to assume that if you made the interview, you'll likely get ranked unless you act weird @the interview or act like you don't want to go there. You pretty much need to make it into the top 1/3 of people they rank (likely higher, like top 15-20% or so) to get a spot, though. There are definitely places that go lower down into their rank lists, though many PD's try to tell you that they never do...it's an ego thing.

 

[ProgCoordinator]

Although there is an ego thing about match numbers, they don't necessarily mean the same thing from year to year. As you know, building a rank list isn't black and white. There's a finesse. Neither side of the process should submit a wish list as their rank list. It's an exercise in balancing desire and clairvoyance. An odds game. Some years we hit the nail on the head and match all of our top spots nearly down the line. Then again…we have years when we dip. Perplexing.

Another thing: Yes, some people bend the truth which makes everyone a little paranoid. I've read here that candidates have been mislead and it pisses me off. Some candidates do it to us, as well. Whether blatant lying or a shadowing of the truth. But, this is what I want to say...appreciate the broader scope. You started your careers when you applied and interviewed for residency. We've had candidates who had applied to us and/or interviewed with us and/or been rude and/or burned us during this process only to come back years later applying for faculty positions. And we remember. Conduct yourselves accordingly.

Don't burn bridges. Don't say number one if you don't mean it. And if you do say number one and then change your mind…let us know. Even if it's at the last minute or after the close of the rank list. It's ok to change your mind. Just let us know. I'm not saying this because I care about my numbers. I'm saying it for you because it's a matter of character in the very long run.

I'm off my soapbox now and continue to wish each of you good luck.

 

[ADH]

PROG Coordinator: Could you clarify your comment "There's a finesse. Neither side of the process should submit a wish list as their rank list. It’s an exercise in balancing desire and clairvoyance. An odds game."

I am trying to understand the match as well as I can. I knew I was in for residency so didn't have to devote many brain cells. What "strategy" is there beyond impressing the programs and then ranking the order in which you would like to go to them? Isn't your rank list essentially a wish list? If a program ranks me #1 and I rank them #8, I've still got a spot even if the first 7 don't rank me don't I? thanks

 

[ProgCoordinator]

Okay. Let me go back and beg your pardons because I probably wasn't looking too far beyond my own nose on that point. You guys have a bit of an advantage in building your rank lists. While yours may be a little closer to a wish list than ours, be realistic.

If you'd interviewed with a program with which you didn't exactly click – whether it be personality or research or culture or geography – maybe you shouldn't make them your #1. If had an interview that you didn't have a great gut feeling about after a visit….if the program that you'd initially thought would be your #1, but came away with a different impression…don't rank them #1. On the other side of the coin…if you absolutely loved a program, but you're not sure whether they're in love with you…reach out to them to let them know you're interested. Certainly go ahead and rank them #1 if you want to. I think your numbers 1-3 give you a little more to play with than ours.

Our job is a little different. Sometimes there's someone we really want – they may even be an internal candidate – but we know that they're gunning for another program (whether it be for geography or a better fit for their interests)…then we may still rank them within striking distance to match with us, but we won't rank them in the top slots so that we can put other people there who we like, are very strong and we have a better chance of getting. We will also lower a candidate who we may be very interested in, but haven't heard from after their interview. We'll rank them, but not in our top slots. If we feel a candidate didn't click....they'll be lower. If they were rude or bizarre in some way...we probably won't rank them at all. If they were a little rude or a little bizarre, yet absolutely brilliant in some way...we may rank them, but rather low.

The whole thing is pretty precarious. Everyone has an opinion. And you all know what they say about opinions, right? Don't take anyone's as gospel. In the end, submit a list that you're happy about at your core so you won't have any regrets.

 

[tibor75]

nm

 

[ProgCoordinator]

If a program ranks me #1 and I rank them #8, I've still got a spot even if the first 7 don't rank me don't I? thanks

This is a little sticky and perhaps someone else can give you facts on it. I'm not mathematically inclined which is probably why I'm a coordinator.

One of the factors is how many positions any given program actually has to fill. If we rank you #1 and you ranked us #8 you may get snatched up by your 1-7 before we can get you. If you ranked us #1 and we ranked you #8, bit we only have three slots to fill…there’s a noticeable chance that you won’t come to us. However, we may have 10 slots and the odds are better that you’ll come to us. Then throw in the whole prestige factor of any given program and the odds shift a little more. Maybe everyone wants us…or only the desperate.

This makes my head spin!

I know that you guys realize that internal candidates may have an edge, but that depends on the year (and how many of the candidates we actually want). We may have 15 internal candidates applying or we may only have 3. And we may not care to keep more than one of them...or any. Here's a fact...one year we had a handful of internal candidates. Fewer of them than slots we had to fill. We were a little on the fence about most of them, but there was one who we loved. That candidate wanted a program closer to family, though, so s/he was not ranked in a top slot with us. We placed that candidate just below striking distance.

I've also seen a couple very strong candidates go unmatched altogether in recent years because they didn't rank enough programs. So keep that in mind. That’s one of the situations I was thinking of when I advised you to be realistic. At my program, we interview the best of the best (on paper) and yet I’ve seen candidates we’d interviewed go unmatched every year.

Ranking sucks.

 

[astropilot]

Personally, I think we should hold to the rules and none of this "I'm going to rank you #1." There is nothing good that comes out of lying. Besides, when you do mean it, the PD or applicant won't know whether to believe it or not.

The process loses its integrity.

 

[dragonfly99]

In response to the question above, if a program loves you, and ranks you #1, but you only rank it #8 because you liked other programs better, it really does not hurt your chances to match there at all. If the program ranked you #1, you will STILL match there PROVIDED YOUR #1-7 DIDN'T RANK YOU HIGH ENOUGH TO MATCH AT THEIR PROGRAMS. Do not be confused by the match, and do not rank a weaker program higher than you want to just because you are insecure and want to match. You should, however, RANK EVERY PROGRAM WHERE YOU WOULD BE WILLING TO TRAIN.

As far as the comment immediately above, I agree with you in principle, but the problem is that the process has already lost some of its integrity, in the sense that the programs are ranking candidates highly subjectively, on factors such as how much they perceive that a candidate wants to go to their program (not necessarily just how strong a candidate they believe he is). Some programs also pressure candidates a lot, in the sense that they'll basically tell you that you aren't going to match there unless they are your first choice (so you may be forced to tell them they are, or realize that if you don't you'll have pretty much zero chance to get ranked high enough to match...even if that happens to be your 2nd or 3rd choice, and you'd be happy to go there). In this environment, it is important for candidates to express a high degree of interest in the programs at the top of their list, and to do so blatantly. Otherwise, you might not match. I'm not saying to lie, but if you just go to your interviews, make your rank list, and let the process proceed without you lobbying for a spot after the interview, you are much more likely to become one of the folks who doesn't match.

 

[tibor75]

Some programs also pressure candidates a lot, in the sense that they'll basically tell you that you aren't going to match there unless they are your first choice (so you may be forced to tell them they are, or realize that if you don't you'll have pretty much zero chance to get ranked high enough to match...even if that happens to be your 2nd or 3rd choice, and you'd be happy to go there). In this environment, it is important for candidates to express a high degree of interest in the programs at the top of their list, and to do so blatantly. Otherwise, you might not match. I'm not saying to lie, but if you just go to your interviews, make your rank list, and let the process proceed without you lobbying for a spot after the interview, you are much more likely to become one of the folks who doesn't match.

Bingo. This idea that you have to be honest with every program even to the point of telling them that you hvae moved them from #1 to #2 is just ridiculous. Don't feel bad about lying to them. This is your career - for them it's just a match. And this idea that you can't lie because it will catch up to you later is a 100 to 1 shot. There are plenty of great cards programs out there for faculty members and if you are black-balled from one of them because you as a resident changed your rank list at the last possible minute, then so be it.

I told a program they were my first choice and they ended up being #3. I didn't lose any sleep over it. And I got a faculty interview there years later.

 

[dragonfly99]

I don't like being dishonest and I try not to stretch the truth even, if at all possible. However, telling a program you have moved them from #1 to #2 or 3 is generally a good way to make sure you never match there.

I think that most of this dishonesty and jockeying for position on the rank list could be eliminated if programs didn't pressure applicants to tell the program they are ranking them #1, or risk not being ranked high enough to ever match there. Not all programs do this, but I'd say at least a good 1/4 - 1/3 of them do. This violates the spirit of the Match, if not the letter of the Match, and it does put candidates in the position of either having to lie or just accepting they effectively have one less program on their rank list. This problem starts and ends with the programs, not the candidates, IMHO.

 

[Kuwonda]

Hearing rumors that Saint Louis University cardiology is about to explode into dust. If anyone considering this program, would reconsider. In danger of disaccredidation. Also, if you are considering going there for medicine residency (only god knows why you would), would not go there if you are planning to pursue cardiology.

 

[astropilot]

Hearing rumors that Saint Louis University cardiology is about to explode into dust. If anyone considering this program, would reconsider. In danger of disaccredidation. Also, if you are considering coming here for medicine residency (only god knows why you would), would not come here if you are planning to pursue cardiology.

When I interviewed there, I was told faculty members have left in the past 1 year and they were not sure if more were going to go. I think it has something to do with the vacant IM chair position.

I didn't like the program anyway.

 

[obamama]

Has anyone started receiving phone calls from programs? Anyone have an idea of how to handle this if that program is within the top 5, but not necessarily #1 in your mind?

 

[GP123]

Anyone have input on UT Houston and UMKC (St. Luke's Mid America Heart Institute).

 

[tibor75]

Has anyone started receiving phone calls from programs? Anyone have an idea of how to handle this if that program is within the top 5, but not necessarily #1 in your mind?

Tell them you loved their program and right now, they are either #1 or #2.

 

[Misterpeppers]

probably overthinking this, but....

Decided my #1-told the program, got a luke warm response from PD, but definately not anything that made me feel comfortable. Now, that makes me re-think whether they should be #1. How kosher is it to tell the previously #2, that they are #1? I dont wanna ruffle any feathers, but I'd like to match at one of my top choices also....Also, I kind of get the feeling that #2 will be far more responsive to "you're my #1". All in all, I really hate this game...sometimes wish I'd just chosen to be a hospitalist.

Any thoughts/experiences?

 

[guddoc]

Now I may sound real parnoid/ dumb- I interviewed at 7 places- emailed them thank you notes- received NO (I mean NONE) response from any PD/faculty. Is this bad prognosis? Shall I mail them again / call them??
Thankx

 

[gerald78]

Now I may sound real parnoid/ dumb- I interviewed at 7 places- emailed them thank you notes- received NO (I mean NONE) response from any PD/faculty. Is this bad prognosis? Shall I mail them again / call them??
Thankx

i would try to contact people again, especially now because i think programs are now making their rank lists. my experience has been that places that did not get back to me in response to emails earlier on are now starting to do so now that they have made their lists and have a better idea of where i am on their lists. i think they sometimes wait to get back to people until they have done this, so another contact would probably good. just my 2 cents

 

[synergy32]

Couple of questions:
1) If a program calls you to say they are interested in you, would you assume that you were at the top of the list to match (meaning that you are ranked in the top 3 or 4, in a program that has 3 or 4 slots).
2) If programs do not call you, are you at risk of not matching? In other words would you assume that means no one is ranking you.

 

[hookaman]

Anyone have input on UT Houston and UMKC (St. Luke's Mid America Heart Institute).

I would actually like some input on these two programs as well if anyone has an opinion. Thanks

 

[dragonfly99]

Nobody called me or emailed me and I ended up matching at my #1 choice.
Some programs (as a policy I think) do not contact applicants. That said, it is fine to show interest...if you called your #1 and they sounded lukewarm, I would in that situation be tempted to go on to #2. However, #1 may just not want to lead people on...perhaps you are ranked highly there, but not high enough they know you are sure to match.

Mid America Heart - I know it has an OK reputation, but I think most fellows go into private practice, not academics. They do some clinical research, but not bench research as far as I know. I know that some fellows c/o the house staff/medicine residents - that some were not great.

 

[JayneCobb]

Remember: The deadline to submit your ROL is 9:00 pm eastern time on Wednesday, June 3, 2009.

 

[Thunderstorm]

Any one knows how good the cardiology fellowship traing program at Oregon OHSU is?. I appreciate any input

 

[Star trek]

Could any one provide me with some thoughts regarding cardiology training at Beth Israel Deaconess in Boston and Case western in Cleveland. Comparing them would be helpful

 

[Jac1]

Deadline for certifying ROL is tomorrow! Make it Green!

 

[Masahiro]

After the ROL Certified, anything else we have to do other than waiting until the match day June 17 noon??

Best of luck to everyone!

 

[The spleen]

Do you have to log onto the web page to see where you matched too, or will it show up on email too?