Cardiogenic Shock What drips do you use?

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SilverStreak

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83 y.o. comes in full blown cardiogenic shock, taken to the OR for emergent redo CAB (first CAB 10 years before), doing as well as can be expected, but goes acidotic off pump, bp plummets, already had plans for IABP, so IABP goes in, LV in crappy shape to begin with definitely had anterior lateral wall MI. My question is when patient goes to the unit, what drips would you have going? I'm curious to see what you all think because there was a pissing match between cardiac surgery and cardiology the next day after surgery, and I'm caught in the middle, told the gtts I'm titrating "don't make sense hemodynamically", even though they 100% made sense to me, and they were what cardiac surgery and anesthesia ordered (who I think should be managing the gtts and not cardiology). The other issue was patient is essentially asystole under a temporary pacer using epicardial leads (few and far between P waves), consistently losing capture on the pacer having to keep going up the MA 5 times during my shift. Cardiology didn't want to do anything about the pacer, said we'd wait until she completely won't capture to transvenous pace because of "friable (?sp) heart tissue" What's your take on management?

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Personally, I don't care w/c drips norepi, dobut, etc. You can often accomplish what you need with many different mixtures.
I am a fan of calling in the family, giving them some time together and then turning off all the drips in this 83yo with very little cardiac function. But this is America and we don't do those types of things. So we keep them ticking, racking upi bills for their families and draining the system with essentially no chance at a quality lifestyle much less ever leaving the hospital.
 
I hear you, this is exactly what the nurses said from the get go, but we often have problems in these situations with our surgeons. I don't know if it is an ego thing (no offense) that they did surgery and can't admit to the families that pt still will not make it, or if they sincerely hope this 83 y.o. who ended up in renal failure, respiratory failure, cardiac failure may somehow with a miracle pull through.

The issue for me though was that she was a full code, the family had not been told what a dire situation she was in, and so we have to keep going. I even had one of the cardiac surgeons in the middle of the night rounding look at her and say "we're not going to fix this". Well, I know that and you that, but has anyone told the family that? I can't let a full code lay there with no CI, no bp, no UOP, and me not address it with the MD. Then it looks like I haven't done my job, what little we can do at this point.

We even told cardiology in the morning code status needed to be addressed with family by one of the MDs and he acted like we were *****s because she was only a day out from surgery. She ended up CRRT and they were talking traching her. It was ridiculous, and sadly we see it far too often. We should just let some of these pts lives take their natural course and not subject them to the things I see. It is so frustrating.
 
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Noyac said:
Personally, I don't care w/c drips norepi, dobut, etc. You can often accomplish what you need with many different mixtures.
I am a fan of calling in the family, giving them some time together and then turning off all the drips in this 83yo with very little cardiac function. But this is America and we don't do those types of things. So we keep them ticking, racking upi bills for their families and draining the system with essentially no chance at a quality lifestyle much less ever leaving the hospital.

Continuing on Noyac's snowboard-roostertail,

tomorrow I'm doing a craniotomy on a 29 year old gangsta who is comatose from a GSW to the head a month ago, S/P shunt, with a persistent CSF leak.

Dude has no family.

Dude is trached, and is unaware he is living on this planet.

Currently, and for the future, he has the cognitive capability of a shrimp.

Literature has shown a shrimp is not aware of its own existence.

And, no, he doesnt have Blue Cross .

Another example of wasted C-notes on a dead-dude that is still breathing.
 
🙂 I can tell we all get frustrated by these types of cases, but that's not why I originally posted. I wanted to know what gtts you guys would choose before I said what all we were on, just to see what you would say. So, here's the story on gtts:

Dobutrex 7.5 mcgs
Primacor 0.5 mcgs (weaned down to 0.35 mcgs when my bp crashed, I checked a CO/CI and my SVR was in the low 500s range, I thought backing of the primacor would help her not be so dilated out)
Epinephrine 0.02-0.03 mcgs
Neo 15 mcgs
dopamine 3 mcgs

Now, when the 7a nurse mentioned an EP study b/c we have nothing under the pacer, the cardio guy says it's not an electrical problem, she doesn't need an EP study, then he told the nurse to shut off the Dob b/c the patient didn't need it. Hello the lady barely has a bp and CI to begin with, and he wants to just turn it off?? She flat to him no, if he wanted to fine go ahead, but she would not do it.

The next day he comes in and surgery had ordered the primacor with low dose neo to hopefully help with CI since the Dob wasn't doing it. He's complaining the I have "competing gtts running" and he and his sidekick nurse are being so condescending acting like I'm stupid for what gtts are going. He says we should be able to manage anything with just 3 gtts, and the patient needs "some serious hemodyamic management from an experienced nurse".

We routinely use Dob on our IABP pts, we'll wean down to 5mcgs, but it stays on at 5 until the IABP is d/c'd. As for the primacor, it is a phosphodiasterase inhibitor (which he informed me, since he apparently thought I was too dumb to know), and surgery ordered it thinking it would help the heart some, but since it does dilate and drop bp, they said low dose neo to go with it to support bp. Typically we are also on low dose dopamine as well, and epi is a given with the cardiogenic shock. So, to me I understood all of the gtts, what they were being used for, and didn't see anything wrong with what we were doing, the only thing I told my preceptee that night was that they made want to add some vasopressin and get off maybe the neo and epi, b/c our surgeons love vaso in the sick hearts.

I even asked for vaso when the another surgeon rounded that night and he said her numbers look good now, just do what you're doing. The other thing cardio ordered Q8 CO/CI since the pt had an asystole episode when he was at the bedside and thought the swan may have contributed, so he didn't want us doing hourly CO/CI, but ICU policy is a minimum of Q4 with no gtts, and I did them Q2 b/c if I'm titrating stuff I think it's irresponsible not to check my numbers, and was griping at me for not doing them Q8.

So, is it just me or is he way out of line on some of what he's thinking. I think CADIAC sugery should be managing gtts POD 1, considering it was a CAB right? And, he refused to address the pacer issue at all, even though I had doubled my MA on the pacer and was worried about burning up the epicardial wires and having no pacing activity at all. He said if it came to that, hook her up to the crash cart, but if you're having trouble with leads screwed into the heart, how reliable it transcutaneous pacing going to be?

Now, I don't mind being told doing something else in my gtt management may have been better. I really want to learn and can take constructive criticism, but I thought the way he and his nurse handled it was all wrong. Especially considering, I came into this mess, and all these gtts were already going. So, would you guys have done anything differently? BTW, the lady did die few days later, coded in the EP lab.
 
jetproppilot said:
Continuing on Noyac's snowboard-roostertail,

tomorrow I'm doing a craniotomy on a 29 year old gangsta who is comatose from a GSW to the head a month ago, S/P shunt, with a persistent CSF leak.

Dude has no family.

Dude is trached, and is unaware he is living on this planet.

Currently, and for the future, he has the cognitive capability of a shrimp.

Literature has shown a shrimp is not aware of its own existence.

And, no, he doesnt have Blue Cross .

Another example of wasted C-notes on a dead-dude that is still breathing.

Jet, is there anything you can do, like consult the hospital's ethic committee on the terms of futile medical care. I know if I get strapped in the head, somebody better "pull the plug".
 
ultm8frisbee said:
Jet, is there anything you can do, like consult the hospital's ethic committee on the terms of futile medical care. I know if I get strapped in the head, somebody better "pull the plug".

I probably could make a big stink, Fris.

To tell you the truth, when I pre-opped the "shrimp", I was like, WTF??

I'll be honest with you.

I lack the NRG current day to pursue it. I'm overwhelmed personally from all of Katrina's sequelae on my existence.

Its easier for me to do the case.
 
Well hes right. You probably shouldnt be running dobutamine and milrinone together, but at this point, what could it hurt. Milrinone has been shown to positively affect these px as well as long term CHF px, but dobutamine has a much narrower range (i.e. not working for CHF px).

Thats mainly what I remember.
 
I agree, running the dobutamine with the primacor doesn't make a lot of sense and why the dopa?...see earlier thread on dopamine. If you got epi why the neo, especially when patients can become refractory to neo. EP lab.....wtf? EP lab is for conduction problems...am I right? If she was pacer dependent then she has no conduction. Seems like too many cooks stirring the soup. ****ty way to go out.
 
Agree about the EP assessment. What good would that do? Apparently her only arrythmia is asystole, which you guys are keeping her out of. Unless they just want to milk the cow...an EP study, sheesh.

edit: i see now that she died in the EP lab, which is about right. The cardiologists had the right ideas, as in: no dobutamine and no EP study. Perhaps its for the best that someone did it, as she likely would have lingered on for a while.

BTW: that looks like a 'renal' dose of dopamine. I believe that dose actually increases M+M. I think you have to get over 20/mcg/kg/min to affect pressure substantially. It would have been a good one to adjust.
 
While on the topic of dobutamine vs milrinone...

Anyone ever take the kinetics into account? I've found milrinone can be more difficult to titrate/wean due to its long half-life, with persons weaning every 1-2 hours only to have the pt crump 4-5 hours later from too quick a wean.
 
Gator05 said:
While on the topic of dobutamine vs milrinone...

Anyone ever take the kinetics into account? I've found milrinone can be more difficult to titrate/wean due to its long half-life, with persons weaning every 1-2 hours only to have the pt crump 4-5 hours later from too quick a wean.

Generally, when I run mil. I also run something else like epi. The mechanics of the two jive well with regards to Ca++ utilization. In this case I ween the epi while the mil is constant. Hope that makes sense.
I like milrinone for pulm HTN pts otherwise I would be using the Dobutamine instead. I'll bet some ohte ICU guys have more knowledge in this area. I just use what works at the time. Withthis bad heart, I would probably be running Norepi and Dobut. I'd add some vasopressin as well if I wasn't getting anywhere with this.
 
Keep the Epi, Mil, and use Vaso/Levo (prefer Vaso) for pressure support if the patient begins to sag. Neo, DA, and Dbx are relatively superfluous with Epi and Mil on board, although anecdotally Dbx may add just a hair more contractility according to several CTS and CTA I have talked to.

Another major benefit of Epi aside from it's inotropic and chronotropic support is the preferential VC of larger epicardial arteries and VD of endocardial and subendocardial vascular beds effectively redistributing blood flow from larger epicardial arteries to smaller subendocardial arteries and the tissues that are likely to be hibernating at this point, if they aren't nonviable altogether.

Wean the Epi as tolerated and use Vaso for pressure support over Levo (coronary VD with Vaso, VC with Levo) if Mil's VD properties start to take control. Have used this mix of gtt's at UTSW and in private practice with great effect on the sickest of my patients.
 
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Noyac was spot on with the big picture. What else ya gonna do once you reach 83?-- discover a cure for AIDS? If ya haven't done most shiit in this world by the time ya reach that age, ya deserve to die. Put her on any drip(s) ya want, resign and find a job in a surgery center. No weekends, call or holidays so ya can get out and enjoy life so that when you're 83, you'll be content to fade away. And that's the gospel according Zip. Regards, ---Zippy
 
zippy2u said:
Noyac was spot on with the big picture. What else ya gonna do once you reach 83?-- discover a cure for AIDS? If ya haven't done most shiit in this world by the time ya reach that age, ya deserve to die. Put her on any drip(s) ya want, resign and find a job in a surgery center. No weekends, call or holidays so ya can get out and enjoy life so that when you're 83, you'll be content to fade away. And that's the gospel according Zip. Regards, ---Zippy

THE ZIPSTER HAS SPOKEN

jet laughs a ss off at zipsters uncanny realism, then genuflects in zipsters honor....
 
I guess part of why I wanted to hear different oppinions is because we tend to do things and run our gtts how the surgeons like them. On the heart side, Dopamine over 5 mcgs and they are having a panic attack, so usual dose for us is 3 mcgs of Dopa- their reasoning? It has a touch of inotropic effect, and "perks the heart up a little bit", and in some patients it helps with urine output, also if we have some pacer dependent, then they like it to try and help wean the pacer off.

As far as the Dobutrex and the Mil, yes I understand what some of you are saying that they may not be the best combo to use. But, I guess it makes sense to me, because again that's why the surgeons always do, you have an IABP in, they stay on Dob at 5 mcgs until it comes out. If Dob alone isn't doing it, them you add a different line of drug.

Also, I was thinking about a conference I went to that talked about the beta cells becoming down regulated to Dobutrex, so hence the reason Mil may help. The conference did talk about shutting off the Dob cold turkey and starting something else, but once again our heart surgeons would have a stroke if any of us did this, and as much bp problems as we were having, I would be inclined to agree that shutting it off without something else made no sense clinically. I did ask for vasopressin, it is wonderful especially in the post op hearts, but when the surgeon made rounds she had decent augment numbers considering her overall picture, so he said just to leave it all as it was. What else can you do? On the one hand, they're all saying she's not going to make it no matter what, but on the other they're fighting over gtts and management and being more aggressive by the hour (she went on CRRT), the whole situation made no sense to me.
 
The reason there are so many different approaches to vasoactive drug infusions is because...IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW YOU DO IT.These drugs don't make the patient better...they don't heal the patient. All the vasoactive drugs do is artifically augment a weak heart when the normal compensatory mechanisms are insufficient to generate enough oxygen delivery to your vitals.

These vasoactive drugs artificially augment the pumping function while the heart heals enough to do the job on its own...

Soooooo....let me repeat....none of your reasoning, theories, algorithms matter ....as long as the vitals are getting enough oxygen.
 
jetproppilot said:
Continuing on Noyac's snowboard-roostertail,

tomorrow I'm doing a craniotomy on a 29 year old gangsta who is comatose from a GSW to the head a month ago, S/P shunt, with a persistent CSF leak.

Dude has no family.

Dude is trached, and is unaware he is living on this planet.

Currently, and for the future, he has the cognitive capability of a shrimp.

Literature has shown a shrimp is not aware of its own existence.

And, no, he doesnt have Blue Cross .

Another example of wasted C-notes on a dead-dude that is still breathing.


would u feel differently if instead of a "gangsta" he was your first kin? yes, the outlook is bleak as hell, but **** lets give hiim a chance. once neurosurgey does their thing i would have neurology reasses the patient in a couple weeks and have them give the patients prospects.
 
MedicinePowder said:
would u feel differently if instead of a "gangsta" he was your first kin? yes, the outlook is bleak as hell, but **** lets give hiim a chance. once neurosurgey does their thing i would have neurology reasses the patient in a couple weeks and have them give the patients prospects.

I'm pretty sure about jet's response.....

I know I wouldn't feel differently...
 
MedicinePowder said:
would u feel differently if instead of a "gangsta" he was your first kin? yes, the outlook is bleak as hell, but **** lets give hiim a chance. once neurosurgey does their thing i would have neurology reasses the patient in a couple weeks and have them give the patients prospects.


No!
I have a living will (as all of you should) and while it doesn't directly address a GSW to the Head it does address this type of scenario. this guy will never be the same and if he survives, its not the way I want to live.
Your argument is what is wrong with this country and its medical system. I don't blame you or others for feeling this way but I do question the logic. It makes no sense to me.
 
militarymd said:
I'm pretty sure about jet's response.....

I know I wouldn't feel differently...

from some of ur past arguments advocating your own ethnocentrism, your lack of compassion does not surprise but most importantly i don't care about your point of view on this topic.
 
MedicinePowder said:
from some of ur past arguments advocating your own ethnocentrism, your lack of compassion does not surprise but most importantly i don't care about your point of view on this topic.

It is not lack of compassion that I have....it is almost 10 years of experience practicing critical care medicine.
 
jetproppilot said:
Its difficult for me to feel compassion when treating an individual involved in violent crime...I live in New Orleans, remember?

This is a politically incorrect statement, but these dudes involved in gun battles endanger our lives. The murder rate here before the storm was incredible. Robberies/carjackings etc were also outta site.
So compassion?

Sorry. Guess that rules out sainthood for me.

Compassion, no. Actually apathy is a more applicable term. These dudes arent on their way to church with their family when they get capped.

If that was my next of kin laying there with a trach and a diaper, theres no way they'd be having ANY surgery, let alone a craniotomy. Nor would I want it myself.

Additionally, I feel the care we give sometimes just doesnt make sense.

Don't you think the millions that'll be spent on this one dude (our tax dollars by the way) would be better spent on, say, poverty stricken children's health care? It's not the kid's fault they're poor. Its the dude's fault that he got shot. He made choices that were bad choices. And yet, even though he's in a chronic vegetative state, millions (literally) will be spent on him.
 
Jetman, Powder and perfume that crani gangsta up and then unload him on Medicine Powder's front doorstep; he's goin' to love playin' Daddy. I'll send over a free truck load of Depends for Powder. Yo Powder, it's goin' to be 24/7 and there ain't no escapin'. -----Bukuboy
 
jetproppilot said:
The murder rate here before the storm was incredible. Robberies/carjackings etc were also outta site.

An ER attending who did his residency @ Charity can tell stories for days. Every now and then we get a body dumped in the ambulance bay, but he said that would happen multiple times a week and sometimes a shift. I've been to NO once for Mardi Gras, and I knew better than to stray into any backalley. I stayed with the party, no matter how drunk i was I kept that thought in the back of my mind.

As far as jet's situation, I wouldn't wanna live like that. had a 20yo black male get dropped off last night with GSW to head & neck. Came in unresponsive, got a rhythm. C2 and C3 were toast on CT. Speculation was anoxic brain injury as ct showed minimal brain involvement. He is more than likely an organ donor, but I wouldn't want to live 50+ years as a quad on a vent.
 
militarymd said:
. All the vasoactive drugs do is artifically augment a weak heart when the normal compensatory mechanisms are insufficient to generate enough oxygen delivery to your vitals.

Brilliant!
 
SilverStreak said:
As far as the Dobutrex and the Mil, yes I understand what some of you are saying that they may not be the best combo to use. But, I guess it makes sense to me, because again that's why the surgeons always do, you have an IABP in, they stay on Dob at 5 mcgs until it comes out. If Dob alone isn't doing it, them you add a different line of drug.

'that's what the surgeons always do' is not an adequate justification for therapy.

though i'm biased (going into Cards) i think that CT surgery patients should be assisted by Cardiology post-op, especially in the mantter of drips. surgery people have strange voodoo justifications for their regimens (well, this one patient did well on epi, so...) while cardiologists tend to be more evidence base. i agree with an above poster, however, who mentioned there's no good data regarding inotropic therapy.

so in terms of physiology I agree with the fellow who told you not to run milrinone with neo (or dobutamine with neo, I forget which). you're using milrinone to augment cardiac contractility. yes, it can vasodilate, but you're hoping the CO increase will be relatively greater to increase perfusion. if you add neo you vasoconstrict and may DECREASE CO, so what was the point of adding the milrinone then?

Flow = Pressure/Resistance CO = ABP - RAP/R

if R goes up, CO goes down.

there's no good evidence for low dose dopamine in renal failure, but it can promote diuresis, so i don't have so much of a problem with it.

with our IABPs, we wean without dobutamine, just decrease the frequency of the IABP.

i also don't agree that epi is a given in cardiogenic shock.

p diddy
 
P Diddy said:
'that's what the surgeons always do' is not an adequate justification for therapy.

though i'm biased (going into Cards) i think that CT surgery patients should be assisted by Cardiology post-op, especially in the mantter of drips. surgery people have strange voodoo justifications for their regimens (well, this one patient did well on epi, so...) while cardiologists tend to be more evidence base. i agree with an above poster, however, who mentioned there's no good ................
p diddy

The post bypass state of the heart is a unique state that most cardiologists are not familiar with......completely different from other myocardial failure states......so how can you provide evidence based therapy when there is no evidence....and what little evidence that does exists lies with the CT surgeons.
 
militarymd said:
The post bypass state of the heart is a unique state that most cardiologists are not familiar with......completely different from other myocardial failure states......so how can you provide evidence based therapy when there is no evidence....and what little evidence that does exists lies with the CT surgeons.

i disagree that cardiologists are not familiar with the 'post bypass heart' since in my institution they are closely invested in the care of these patients. at many institutions cards and CT surgery are part of a team taking care of CT surg patients. i agree that there is little evidence, but have not been confronted by evidence offered from the welcoming arms of a CT surgeon. any pointers?

p diddy
 
P Diddy said:
i disagree that cardiologists are not familiar with the 'post bypass heart' since in my institution they are closely invested in the care of these patients. at many institutions cards and CT surgery are part of a team taking care of CT surg patients. i agree that there is little evidence, but have not been confronted by evidence offered from the welcoming arms of a CT surgeon. any pointers?

p diddy

So what evidence do the cardiologists possess about drips that the surgeons don't?
 
militarymd said:
So what evidence do the cardiologists possess about drips that the surgeons don't?

Hello. Indeed, cardiac surgeons and cardiologists should both know what they are doing in the ICU. Further, a good cardiologist should be familiar with cardiac patients immediately post-op. This case is disappointing to hear on multiple levels, but I find the interaction between the surgeons and cardiologists especially disturbing.

I believe the cardiologist does have a place in the care of these post-op patients. There is continuity of care, because the cardiologist usually refers the patient for surgery, and he/she will be taking care of the patient after the surgery (if the patient survives, that is...). I agree with the previous poster who stated that both parties are equally invested in the outcome of this patient. Because this patient is post-op, I assume she is in the SICU. The cardiologist SHOULD know better than to be insulting and condescending to involved team members. Further, he/she should be trying to teach you more, because if you (I assume a housestaff physician) are not confident with strategy for hemodynamic management of the patient, there is an impact on the quality of care. The lack of professional courtesy in this case is troubling, especially since this isn't even his/her home turf (i.e. the CCU). At the institutioin where I work, the surgeons are usually thrilled with the contributions of the cardiologists, and are always trying to get us more involved. In fact, the patient's care is usually better for it. Collaboration is the name of the game, and it should streamline and clarify the patient's management. Not muddy it.

As for this patient, I can't tell you with any certainty the optimal pressor management because I don't know what's wrong with her. What I can say is that one of the most potent factors in her hemodynamics is her IABP. The milrinone/epi combination is standard post-CABG. What I see as a problem is that there appears to be no clear idea of what her physiology is, i.e. cardiogenic vs. distributive/vasoplegic vs other, so the kitchen sink is being thrown at her. Pressor management is as much art as science, and one way to clarify the picture is to pare down the combinations such that you have a clear picture of the outcome from manipulating a specific drug. I question titrating vasoconstrictors when the patient is on an IABP (the most potent afterload reducer, and kinda like spitting in the wind). If the patient is vasoplegic, is the BP better with the IABP weaned? The combination of Neo with Dobutrex or Milrinone doesn't make much sense either (opposing physiology). Aside from the pressor management, why is this patient not flying? Is the patient incompletely revascularized? Is she infected? What does the ECHO look like pre and post surgery? Is there right-sided dysfunction? Does she have pulmonary hypertension? Any new valvular abnormalities (like MR)?

Irrespective of this patient's outcome, it appears that the surgeons and cardiologists in this case need to work on their professional relationship. Unfortunately, it appears that you are caught in the middle. When the team works well together in a collaborative environment, the patient gets better care, and all the participants learn from each other. If anything, the communication may clarify the team's stance regarding overall disposition.

In any case, I really wish you and this patient much luck.
Cheers.
 
medoc said:
Hello. Indeed, cardiac surgeons and cardiologists should both know what they are doing in the ICU. Further, a good cardiologist should be familiar with cardiac patients immediately post-op. This case is disappointing to hear on multiple levels, but I find the interaction between the surgeons and cardiologists especially disturbing.

I believe the cardiologist does have a place in the care of these post-op patients. There is continuity of care, because the cardiologist usually refers the patient for surgery, and he/she will be taking care of the patient after the surgery (if the patient survives, that is...). I agree with the previous poster who stated that both parties are equally invested in the outcome of this patient. Because this patient is post-op, I assume she is in the SICU. The cardiologist SHOULD know better than to be insulting and condescending to involved team members. Further, he/she should be trying to teach you more, because if you (I assume a housestaff physician) are not confident with strategy for hemodynamic management of the patient, there is an impact on the quality of care. The lack of professional courtesy in this case is troubling, especially since this isn't even his/her home turf (i.e. the CCU). At the institutioin where I work, the surgeons are usually thrilled with the contributions of the cardiologists, and are always trying to get us more involved. In fact, the patient's care is usually better for it. Collaboration is the name of the game, and it should streamline and clarify the patient's management. Not muddy it.

As for this patient, I can't tell you with any certainty the optimal pressor management because I don't know what's wrong with her. What I can say is that one of the most potent factors in her hemodynamics is her IABP. The milrinone/epi combination is standard post-CABG. What I see as a problem is that there appears to be no clear idea of what her physiology is, i.e. cardiogenic vs. distributive/vasoplegic vs other, so the kitchen sink is being thrown at her. Pressor management is as much art as science, and one way to clarify the picture is to pare down the combinations such that you have a clear picture of the outcome from manipulating a specific drug. I question titrating vasoconstrictors when the patient is on an IABP (the most potent afterload reducer, and kinda like spitting in the wind). If the patient is vasoplegic, is the BP better with the IABP weaned? The combination of Neo with Dobutrex or Milrinone doesn't make much sense either (opposing physiology). Aside from the pressor management, why is this patient not flying? Is the patient incompletely revascularized? Is she infected? What does the ECHO look like pre and post surgery? Is there right-sided dysfunction? Does she have pulmonary hypertension? Any new valvular abnormalities (like MR)?

Irrespective of this patient's outcome, it appears that the surgeons and cardiologists in this case need to work on their professional relationship. Unfortunately, it appears that you are caught in the middle. When the team works well together in a collaborative environment, the patient gets better care, and all the participants learn from each other. If anything, the communication may clarify the team's stance regarding overall disposition.

In any case, I really wish you and this patient much luck.
Cheers.

Some of you may not know if you haven't seen my previous posts, but this situation was extremely difficult for me because I am an ICU nurse. Yes, I realize the gtts we are on and their desired effects, but the fact is I can't start anything without an order. We have very large standing order set with a lot of freedom, but in a heart this sick I feel that it should be physician guided with respect to exactly what they want as far as gtts, IABP frequency, pacer, etc. The lady was definitely in cardiogenic shock when she hit the door, had a CAB some years before, had a MI back then, knew what her symptoms this time meant, she just didn't want to come in and go through the whole process again. She is 83, can't say I blame her, but by the time she did come in, there wasn't much to work with in terms of heart muscle from this injury on top of prior injury.

Echo showed a 30% EF at best, and that's with the IABP in and every gtt known to man going. The MI she had took out the LV, so that was part of our bp problem right there. She did have a significant history of pulmonary hypertension as well, renal insufficiency, diabetes, the whole works. She had some ventricular remodeling from the previous MI, cardiomyopathy, etc. etc.

I like MilMDs perspective that the gtts are augmenting what a weak heart is unable or ineffectively doing-pumping blood to the tissues. But, when you start adding a med like Mil that decreases afterload and lets the heart pump easier against less resistance, we were already having pressure problems to begin with, so you add a med like Neo to tighten her up, but when you're on meds to vasoconstrict, then how much O2 are the tissues getting? But if you've got a mean arterial pressure of 50-52, then you know they're not getting tissue perfusion in that case either. So, you're screwed either way. I guess that was my point to the cardiologist, I came into this mess, she had all this crap running, he wants to start critiquing gtt management, but is there really a good way in this type of patient to get effective hemodynamic management? I don't think so, but he acted like I was an idiot. Just wondering what other physician oppinions would be like.

We tend to see these situations sadly with the same group of cards, but since cards refers to CV and CV can't make their money without the referrals, it gets to be a headache sometimes. CV doesn't want to make cards mad and not get future business. It is ridiculous these games we play with our patients. Thanks for everyone's input. You guys give me a better perspective on seeing more in depth the whole picture from where you're coming from in patient care.
 
militarymd said:
So what evidence do the cardiologists possess about drips that the surgeons don't?

Depends on what day you ask them. Monday, this medicine is the newest and most recommended for this type of patient. Tuesday it's something else, and no they didn't tell you the opposite yesterday, you just misunderstood the patient population that he was referring to. Now by Wednesday, another drug rep has come in and there's something bigger and better than the drugs you were using on Monday and Tuesday. Then at the end of the week on Friday, you end up on the old tried and true drug that has been around forever, is the cheapest with usually the fewest side effects.

Sorry, just couldn't resist. Sometimes, this is how it seems to me patient treatment is approached. One day the docs want this, the next day it's that. There doesn't seem to be any consistency to what we do or how we do it.
 
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