Career Change to Clinical Psychology

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InertiaESP

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Hi everyone,

I've been reading through the forum here for a few hours and wanted to get a little feedback regarding my personal plan.

I'm 29, dropped out of college a semester before graduation to earn six figure money in IT. I'm currently employed with arguably the best engineering/ tech company in Washington D.C. and support several of the U.S.'s agencies in the architecture of their computer systems in order to prevent cyber attacks. In short, I've essentially reached the top of my career... and it is extremely unfulfilling (this site needs to sort out its spell check).

I've had an unquenchable thirst for knowledge relating to psychology since I can remember. For the past ten years I've had subscriptions to psych mags, journals and newsletters. I had taken several psych courses in college and loved them. Understanding the fact that I'll have to revisit my undergrad and take several classes in order to change my original major; I wanted to know just how competitive admissions to solid PhD programs are? How intense is the coursework? Are job prospects really as abysmal as these boards would lead me to believe?

p.s. I'd love to hear from any non-trad students out there. And yes, I know admissions are competitive, but I'd appreciate some quantitative data mixed with anecdotal evidence. For example, the Navy SEALS attrition rate is 70%, but many of those guys never stood a chance and should have been a little more self-aware. Or... I'm one of the only people in my current position that doesn't have at least a B.S. in engineering ;).

Thanks for any advice you might be able to provide.

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Hi everyone,
For example, the Navy SEALS attrition rate is 70%, but many of those guys never stood a chance and should have been a little more self-aware.

From my layman's view... most don't know until they try... Most guys have it physically when they go through the door at BUD/S, mentally is another story. It's not a lack of insight, but a lack of experiencing what it's like. I wouldn't attribute it to a lack of self-awareness.

So you're making 6 figures now and you want to spend 6-8 years pursuing a Ph.D., Internship, a post-doc, then licensure before you can make substantially less money?

This could be a bad plan... but if it is where your heart is, start making changes now to live more frugally or find a way to make 6 figures going to grad school (which is unlikely, but possible if you have all the stars line up). I am a non-trad IT guy, FWIW, who @40 got accepted to graduate school and started undergraduate studies @38, and will finish my internship this year @45.
 
Hi everyone,

I've been reading through the forum here for a few hours and wanted to get a little feedback regarding my personal plan.

I'm 29, dropped out of college a semester before graduation to earn six figure money in IT. I'm currently employed with arguably the best engineering/ tech company in Washington D.C. and support several of the U.S.'s agencies in the architecture of their computer systems in order to prevent cyber attacks. In short, I've essentially reached the top of my career... and it is extremely unfulfilling (this site needs to sort out its spell check).

I've had an unquenchable thirst for knowledge relating to psychology since I can remember. For the past ten years I've had subscriptions to psych mags, journals and newsletters. I had taken several psych courses in college and loved them. Understanding the fact that I'll have to revisit my undergrad and take several classes in order to change my original major; I wanted to know just how competitive admissions to solid PhD programs are? How intense is the coursework? Are job prospects really as abysmal as these boards would lead me to believe?

p.s. I'd love to hear from any non-trad students out there. And yes, I know admissions are competitive, but I'd appreciate some quantitative data mixed with anecdotal evidence. For example, the Navy SEALS attrition rate is 70%, but many of those guys never stood a chance and should have been a little more self-aware. Or... I'm one of the only people in my current position that doesn't have at least a B.S. in engineering ;).

Thanks for any advice you might be able to provide.

You can make 6 figures in psychology if that is a priority. It may take you longer to get there, but it is doable.

Money will not make you happy in your career (no matter how much you earn) if you don't enjoy what you're doing. If psychology is your passion, it's probably worth exploring further if for no other reason than to learn if you do want to pursue it as a career.

One of the biggest, if not the biggest, questions you'll need to answer is whether you want to be an academic or a clinician. It's hard to do both and the training paths are different.
 
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Hi everyone,

I've been reading through the forum here for a few hours and wanted to get a little feedback regarding my personal plan.

I'm 29, dropped out of college a semester before graduation to earn six figure money in IT. I'm currently employed with arguably the best engineering/ tech company in Washington D.C. and support several of the U.S.'s agencies in the architecture of their computer systems in order to prevent cyber attacks. In short, I've essentially reached the top of my career... and it is extremely unfulfilling (this site needs to sort out its spell check).

I've had an unquenchable thirst for knowledge relating to psychology since I can remember. For the past ten years I've had subscriptions to psych mags, journals and newsletters. I had taken several psych courses in college and loved them. Understanding the fact that I'll have to revisit my undergrad and take several classes in order to change my original major; I wanted to know just how competitive admissions to solid PhD programs are? How intense is the coursework? Are job prospects really as abysmal as these boards would lead me to believe?

p.s. I'd love to hear from any non-trad students out there. And yes, I know admissions are competitive, but I'd appreciate some quantitative data mixed with anecdotal evidence. For example, the Navy SEALS attrition rate is 70%, but many of those guys never stood a chance and should have been a little more self-aware. Or... I'm one of the only people in my current position that doesn't have at least a B.S. in engineering ;).

Thanks for any advice you might be able to provide.


PhD programs in clinical psychology are EXTREMELY competitive. Exceptional student = average student in clinical psychology. Ten percent of applicants gain admission, the other 90 percent are rejected. Many qualified applicants are denied admission because it is so competitive. It can be done, but it will be an uphill battle. Clinical PhDs range from 6 to 8 years and the salary will most likely not be close to six figures. If you are content with where you are in your job, I would not recommend changing careers into clinical psychology, because it will involve a lot of sacrafices, not only financial sacrifice.
 
...but I'd appreciate some quantitative data mixed with anecdotal evidence. For example, the Navy SEALS attrition rate is 70%, but many of those guys never stood a chance and should have been a little more self-aware. Or... I'm one of the only people in my current position that doesn't have at least a B.S. in engineering ;).

Thanks for any advice you might be able to provide.

Re: that last point--I unfortunately don't have any quantitative data available (and I'm honestly not sure anyone would), but I can say over the years, I've gotten the feeling that a somewhat sizable minority (if I had to completely guess at a figure, maybe 15-20%?) of clinical psych applicants fall into this "should have been a little more self-aware" category. That is, they a) applied to grad school because they majored in psych in undergrad and it just seemed like the thing to do after graduating, b) didn't research the process (applications, training, etc.) as much as they should have, or c) unfortunately just don't have the minimum credentials necessary to be seriously considered for admittance.

Once you get past that initial cut "wave," though, things can tend to become significantly more competitive. I will say, though, that the factors on which applicants are judged can also concomittantly become much more varied, especially at the interview phase. Each year I participated in interviews in my program, for example, there was generally a healthy mix of people with great scores (GPA, GRE, etc.), great research, great prior training (think: master's, RA/psychometrist work in solid labs), and/or great personality. Very few,if any, were STELLAR on all of those things, but most people were at least respectable in their areas of "weakness."
 
PhD programs in clinical psychology are EXTREMELY competitive. Exceptional student = average student in clinical psychology. Ten percent of applicants gain admission, the other 90 percent are rejected.

This seems to be the conventional wisdom, but I'm not sure that psych is more competitive than other academic (not applied/professional) doctoral programs in terms of percentage admitted. I think my social science doc program was more selective than 10% admission. But it's certainly true that psych folks have to do more than others to get into that upper 10%. There are folks who were accepted into my program with no research or teaching experience, no background in our discipline. I don't think that would happen in psych. And many other academic disciplines don't require you to interview either; rather they court you and compete for you. And clin psych folks have to do a lot more work to complete the degree than folks in many other disciplines.
 
This seems to be the conventional wisdom, but I'm not sure that psych is more competitive than other academic (not applied/professional) doctoral programs in terms of percentage admitted. I think my social science doc program was more selective than 10% admission. But it's certainly true that psych folks have to do more than others to get into that upper 10%. There are folks who were accepted into my program with no research or teaching experience, no background in our discipline. I don't think that would happen in psych. And many other academic disciplines don't require you to interview either; rather they court you and compete for you. And clin psych folks have to do a lot more work to complete the degree than folks in many other disciplines.

I noticed this difference quite often when spending time with my non-psych grad student friends. Their applications processes were often much less-formalized and/or they were "spoiled" quite a bit more during their interviews (airfare, hotel, and dinner paid for), which definitely made me a bit jealous :) Even in other areas of psych (other than perhaps school and counseling), interviews seem to be the exception rather than the norm.

I think part of reasoning for this is the increased number of applicants, and thus reviewers may need an additional step to help them separate the top choices from the rest of the very strong applicants. Also, given the clinical aspect of the degree, they likely want to make sure (as much as is possible, anyway) that you have some interpersonal savvy.

As for the 10%...that can vary substantially by program. Most of the funded slots to which I applied seemed to fall in the 5-8% range (e.g., 200-250 applicants for 10-12 spots); however, there are also programs that admit roughly 50% of applicants.
 
I think part of reasoning for this is the increased number of applicants, and thus reviewers may need an additional step to help them separate the top choices from the rest of the very strong applicants.

Unfortunately, there is quite a bit of empirical support AGAINST this additional step (e.g. interview) being a valid means of gaining additional useful information regarding the likelihood of success/failure of the applicant. I'd like to think that other disciplines don't rely so much on interviews because they are aware of and guided by the research. That said, clinical psych student sure tend to be a good looking, well dressed, pleasant smelling group of people (even the ones who fail miserably at grad school;))
 
I'd like to think that other disciplines don't rely so much on interviews because they are aware of and guided by the research.

I doubt that's true of my (non-psych) discipline; most of those types of decisions seem to be ideologically driven, or related to faculty laziness. They don't want that additional work of interviewing prospectives.

That said, clinical psych student sure tend to be a good looking, well dressed, pleasant smelling group of people (even the ones who fail miserably at grad school;))

This is what worries me the most. My mentor as an undergrad watched with interest the file of an applicant with strong research experience, publications, "everything the committee says it's looking for" in admitted grad students. This excellent candidate was also fat, older, and transgendered. Result: rejection (though she did gain acceptance elsewhere). Same with my current school--when it occurred to me that I could at least try to laterally transfer into psych, I started talking to my POI's students, who, to a person, were young, thin, attractive, fresh-faced, perky, and to be honest, kind of bland. When I realized that POI was creating a cheerleading section, I knew I probably wouldn't have a shot.

I'm moving forward with the assumption that any interviews I'm lucky enough to eventually get will be muddied by prejudices related to my age, body size, and other aspects of appearance.
 
I'm moving forward with the assumption that any interviews I'm lucky enough to eventually get will be muddied by prejudices related to my age, body size, and other aspects of appearance.

If you think like that you're just doing yourself a disservice in the interview.
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If you think like that you're just doing yourself a disservice in the interview.
.

If you are suggesting that I don't barrel in there with a chip on my shoulder, or an attitude that contributes to the rejection I dread, your point is well taken. But nothing I've read or seen leads me to believe that academics are magically immune to the kinds of prejudices that they study in the population at large. And multiple people have recounted that their mentors advised weight loss prior to going on the (academic) job market. Trust me, spanx ain't gonna do it. :laugh:
 
If you are suggesting that I don't barrel in there with a chip on my shoulder, or an attitude that contributes to the rejection I dread, your point is well taken. But nothing I've read or seen leads me to believe that academics are magically immune to the kinds of prejudices that they study in the population at large. And multiple people have recounted that their mentors advised weight loss prior to going on the (academic) job market. Trust me, spanx ain't gonna do it. :laugh:

I'm not trying to sound like some naive, all we need is love, hippie but I'm a firm believer in positive thinking. You are right that academics are not immune to prejudices. Numerous studies have shown that taller and more attractive people earn more money. And I'm not going to lie. If I get an interview this year, I'm hitting the gym and the tanning bed, and buying a new suit.
 
I'm not trying to sound like some naive, all we need is love, hippie but I'm a firm believer in positive thinking. You are right that academics are not immune to prejudices. Numerous studies have shown that taller and more attractive people earn more money. And I'm not going to lie. If I get an interview this year, I'm hitting the gym and the tanning bed, and buying a new suit.

I genuinely wish you good luck. :)

But jesus, now we have to be tan too?!?! Perhaps I should get a face lift, or better yet, hire a young model to stand in for me.
:eek:
 
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I genuinely wish you good luck. :)

But jesus, now we have to be tan too?!?! Perhaps I should get a face lift, or better yet, hire a young model to stand in for me.
:eek:

:laugh: Good idea on the model and thank you!
 
:laugh: Good idea on the model and thank you!

Idk about tanning and all, but the style/fashion impairment of many psychologists drives me up a wall. I'm talking permanent style basics here (colors, pattern matching, fit), not "trends" and fads. Big difference. Styles that compliment the body shape and highlight the face, people. Always. :D
 
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Idk about tanning and all, but the style/fashion impairment of many psychologists drives me up a wall. I'm talking permanent style basics here now (colors, pattern matching, fit) not trends and fads. Big difference. Styles that compliment the body style and highlight the face, people. Always. :D

WWKMW? (What Would Keith Moon Wear?)
 
WWKMW? (What Would Keith Moon Wear?)

Knowing his history and demented personality, Cowboy boots, chaps, and nothing else. :laugh:
 
For grad school at least, at many places the interview is less about "qualifications" and more about "Can I work with this person". Interviews tell you little about whether or not someone is likely to succeed, but it can certainly tell you a lot about whether the person is likable, someone you would want as a colleague, etc.

Qualifications are (obviously) important, but don't think that's all there is to it. Many graduate programs have students operating essentially as junior colleagues rather than "students" in the undergrad sense. Don't underestimate the importance of just being an interesting, fun person in the interview process. We've all met people who are very driven and quite successful who we would never, ever, ever want to work with. Some faculty members probably won't care if they hate you if you help them get out 20 publications, but at least among faculty I've met - they are likely a minority.
 
Interviews tell you little about whether or not someone is likely to succeed, but it can certainly tell you a lot about whether the person is likable, someone you would want as a colleague, etc.

Unfortunately, this is more of a perception than a reality, at least where face-to-face interviewers are concerned. Research on interviewing consistently indicates that interviewers make judgments based on physical cues (e.g. attractivenes, weight) that they don't make when all else is held equal. Interviewers simply have a difficult time "blocking-out" visual information regarding the interviewee, and the interviewers make attributions about the interviewees often immediately upon seeing them. Though I haven't looked at the interview research in depth for some time, I am not aware of studies that indicate the that interviews can reliably "tell you a lot about whether the person is likable, someone you would want as a colleague, etc."As much as we would like this to be the case (it would make a lot of our jobs a lot easier) , it just isn't so.

The research tells me that when I need to hire or recruit someone, the best evidence of their ability to do the job is how they have done similar things in the past. None of their job responsibilities will involve them sitting with me in a room and telling me about their work and educational history and how they think they'll do in the job, so I shouldn't judge their ability to do the actual work based on the skills they demonstrate during an interview. Conversely, if I'm interviewing for a position, the research tells me that I better damn well make sure that I look and smell as good as possible, smile a lot, and make appropriate eye contact.
 
Unfortunately, this is more of a perception than a reality, at least where face-to-face interviewers are concerned. Research on interviewing consistently indicates that interviewers make judgments based on physical cues (e.g. attractivenes, weight) that they don't make when all else is held equal. Interviewers simply have a difficult time "blocking-out" visual information regarding the interviewee, and the interviewers make attributions about the interviewees often immediately upon seeing them. Though I haven't looked at the interview research in depth for some time, I am not aware of studies that indicate the that interviews can reliably "tell you a lot about whether the person is likable, someone you would want as a colleague, etc."As much as we would like this to be the case (it would make a lot of our jobs a lot easier) , it just isn't so.

The research tells me that when I need to hire or recruit someone, the best evidence of their ability to do the job is how they have done similar things in the past. None of their job responsibilities will involve them sitting with me in a room and telling me about their work and educational history and how they think they'll do in the job, so I shouldn't judge their ability to do the actual work based on the skills they demonstrate during an interview. Conversely, if I'm interviewing for a position, the research tells me that I better damn well make sure that I look and smell as good as possible, smile a lot, and make appropriate eye contact.

I believe every word you've written above.

But I feel like throwing up now.
 
?
I'm not even certain we are disagreeing ClinicalABA.

I don't think there is any doubt that, unfortunately, many other things factor into these interviews (e.g. appearance, etc.). That's not even a question, its unfortunate, but true. There is definitely reason to question about whether interviews are at all effective for determining who will be an effective psychologist.

My only point was that qualifications are only one of several things interviews are meant to determine. Faculty aren't even necessarily approaching it with the view that the interview helps them find who is "best". Many are quite open about the fact that they are looking for someone likable, that they can "hang out" with for 5 years. I don't know about you, but at least half my interviews were not solely about work and education history, they covered things like sports, pets, places we've visited, etc. At the interview point for the more competitive programs, nearly everyone will be qualified. Faculty aren't necessarily looking for who will be the most prolific, the best therapist, etc. They are looking for someone they can see themselves hanging out with in lab meetings, at conferences, having daily interactions with, etc. over the next 5-6 years.

I find it difficult to believe you are arguing that face-to-face meetings with a person wouldn't tell you anything about whether or not the person was someone you would like and get along with. That flies in the face of decades of social psychology research. Certainly interviews are very different then meeting someone at a bar, etc. but I certainly am not aware of any research suggesting early interactions can't predict how likely two people are to get along...just that it doesn't necessarily predict job performance. I'm saying that among those who make it to the interview phase, job performance isn't necessarily the only thing they are looking for. For better or worse, at that point they want to know if you will get along with them and unfortunately, things like appearance will quite likely factor into that (as do many other things of course - communication style, etc., don't forget about that!). We all know people who are incredibly successful at what they do, but we would never, ever, want to work with. An argument can certainly be made that meeting face to face holds no value in predicting someones GPA,, publications, etc. I'm not certain one can make the argument (or that you were trying to - since some of your post seems to say the opposite!) that a face-to-face meeting says nothing about how much you will like the person.
 
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Ollie,

We are sort of agreeing, yet a few points of clarification may be needed. I really am trying to rely on the literature here. I am not arguing that you get different information from a face to face interview, and that some of that information might be useful. What I am saying is that the research that I am aware of (just this afternoon I augmented my psychinfo search with one in a business oriented database) points to there being a lot of problems with decisions based on both structured and unstructured interviews. As you point out, by the time someone gets to the interview stage, they have already been vetted based on potentially more relevant info. It could be argued that this creates a biased sample (e.g. a group that is likely to do well, regardless of the interview). As a result, whoever is picked after the interview phase is likely to be successful, largely because of the information gathered pre-interview. This sets up a situation where no-one who is not interviewed ever gets the position.
 
Faculty aren't necessarily looking for who will be the most prolific, the best therapist, etc. They are looking for someone they can see themselves hanging out with in lab meetings, at conferences, having daily interactions with, etc. over the next 5-6 years...and unfortunately, things like appearance will quite likely factor into that

If the rumors of sexual harassment in my (and other) departments are true, I expect at least some profs are looking for a lot more than someone to hang out with.

Back to throwing up now.
 
I actually think we are agreeing here.

There is no question that interviews will inherently involve bias. Though don't throw the baby out with the bathwater here. There is a difference between "biased" and "provides no useful information" and ways to extract more objective information from interviews. Something like appearance can certainly affect interview ratings, but that is VERY VERY different from saying that interviews have no predictive utility. The latter may very well be true too, I'm just saying we need to be careful here exactly what we infer from the literature.

I think in your attempt to rely on the literature, you are missing my primary point. I'm (somewhat) familiar with the literature on interviewing. You haven't said anything that isn't correct. You keep returning to the point that interviews may not be good predictors of who will succeed, and that the process may not be ideal for determining that. Certainly important information, but its completely irrelevant to my point.

All I'm saying is that many faculty will report that the purpose of interviews is not "I need to figure out who is going to be the best student". True that is anecdotal, but either way its a descriptive question, not an inferential one. If you want to stick to the literature, there are literally thousands of articles on what leads someone to like another person, including some of the factors you mentioned that may be "unfair" (e.g appearance) and many others that you may or may not consider fair (e.g. how much the other person talks in the conversation, communication style, etc.). I don't think you are denying that this literature exists since you've cited it yourself.

Again, all I'm saying is that we seemed stuck on the idea that the systems are INTENDED solely to determine who will be the best psychologist. That is what is objectively false. We can debate the merits of it, we can discuss whether or not it should be that way, we can even discuss how good we are at predicting how much we will like someone based off such an artificial interaction, though even there I think the literature clearly shows that we can (keeping in mind that "liking someone" itself is inherently biased). I'm not sure there is any way you could convince me that faculty are approaching the interview solely to determine who is most likely to be successful - we can debate the degrees of it, but saying that all interviews are only about determining who will be the "best" candidate is objectively false.
 
If the rumors of sexual harassment in my (and other) departments are true, I expect at least some profs are looking for a lot more than someone to hang out with.

Back to throwing up now.

Hah - unfortunately I'm certain there is some truth to that though fortunately it seems to be a small minority - at least when it comes to more overt forms.

Even faculty with a perfectly healthy view of advisor-advisee relationships want students they like and will get along with though. That shouldn't be a big news flash to anyone with any experience in the workforce and is all I'm trying to get across here.
 
Well, let's also not forget the Halo Effect. Attractive people are just viewed as nicer, smarter, and all around more awesome.
 
Hah - unfortunately I'm certain there is some truth to that though fortunately it seems to be a small minority - at least when it comes to more overt forms.

Even faculty with a perfectly healthy view of advisor-advisee relationships want students they like and will get along with though. That shouldn't be a big news flash to anyone with any experience in the workforce and is all I'm trying to get across here.

I'm curious if Ollie or others know which other fields require interviews prior to admission offers being given. I thought it was just clin psych until I recently overheard a cognitive psych applicant talking about interviews. I don't think you see this elsewhere in the humanities or social sciences, but I'm wrong about plenty...why not this? Do STEM fields interview?

And perhaps this has been answered above (if so, my apologies), but how do psychology faculty talk to each other about the interview process? Are you saying (Ollie, others) that faculty openly acknowledge that they're not really screening for clinical or academic success in interviews and that they freely admit that they're looking instead for pleasant and perhaps even pretty people? Or is this something that they admit to themselves privately? All of this chills my bones and turns my stomach (though it's not surprising or really "news") not only because few people would consider me perky or humpy, but because the clin psych profs I've met (only a few) are amongst the most socially awkward goofs I've ever encountered. What does it mean to be judged pleasant, fun, and socially adept by the man who comports himself with all the ease and grace of a bear in a tutu?
 
Oh and Ollie, on a previous thread you asked me to PM you with UCLA adjunct guy's CV/link. I went back and couldn't find him. Don't know if department took him down because he's not adjuncting next term or what, but I don't have a CV to send because it was only a link, not a downloadable PDF, and I don't recall the guy's name. Sorry.
 
Those mixers they have with students at grad school interviews and internship interviews. . . they ask the students what they think.

I agree with everything in JS's post above, although did want to note that this point about asking students seems to vary from program to program. At some sites (particularly with respect to grad school), while students may have limited input, their feedback generally doesn't weigh very heavily in the admissions decision. In other departments, students' opinions are given higher billing. I wouldn't say you need to be "on guard" and anxious at the more-social events, such as if you're invited to an informal dinner and/or gathering by current students, but do realize that if you come across as a complete jerk, it'll likely get back to the POI at some point. Whether or not the professor chooses to pay any attention to that opinion will vary.
 
I've done many interviews at academic departments. You generally spend two days, from the AM to the PM (including dinner and lunch) interviewing with as many people in the dept (including students) as possible, giving lectures, talking to support staff, etc. . . And, everyone has an opinion.

This sounds like you're talking about fly-outs for job talks as a job candidate for a faculty position...surely prospective psych grad students aren't grilled for two full days?? We're talking about interviews as the gateway to admission to doctoral study in psych, not the academic job market, right?
 
About being attractive/looking good for interviews, I know this is a dumb question, but would being attractive apply to internship too?
 
About being attractive/looking good for interviews, I know this is a dumb question, but would being attractive apply to internship too?

...Yes, all interviews. Unfortunately, internship directors are not magically immune to these biases. (But the world might be a better place if they were!). :)
 
About being attractive/looking good for interviews, I know this is a dumb question, but would being attractive apply to internship too?
I don't think it's a dumb question at all - I have no doubt that this factors in, how could it not? Interested to hear opinions from prior applicants and interviewers on the internship circuit.
 
About being attractive/looking good for interviews, I know this is a dumb question, but would being attractive apply to internship too?

It is a much more nuanced judgment, as the vast majority of people won't even consciously realize that they are doing it. It isn't like a casting call for a photoshoot where they have people that go, "Yes, No, No, Yes". I'd be more concerned about Appropriate v. Inappropriate dress, behavior, comments, etc.
 
This sounds like you're talking about fly-outs for job talks as a job candidate for a faculty position...surely prospective psych grad students aren't grilled for two full days?? We're talking about interviews as the gateway to admission to doctoral study in psych, not the academic job market, right?

Not the actual interview, but usually you spend two days touring the department, going out to dinner, maybe going to a social, and often you stay with a grad student. So although the actual interviewing is usually only a few hours, you still have to be "on" for the whole interview weekend.

Not every school does it that way, though. American University only has a few hours of interviewing and you're done, for instance.

As for your earlier question, our Experimental Psych program interviews applicants, too.
 
I'm curious if Ollie or others know which other fields require interviews prior to admission offers being given. I thought it was just clin psych until I recently overheard a cognitive psych applicant talking about interviews. I don't think you see this elsewhere in the humanities or social sciences, but I'm wrong about plenty...why not this? Do STEM fields interview?

And perhaps this has been answered above (if so, my apologies), but how do psychology faculty talk to each other about the interview process? Are you saying (Ollie, others) that faculty openly acknowledge that they're not really screening for clinical or academic success in interviews and that they freely admit that they're looking instead for pleasant and perhaps even pretty people? Or is this something that they admit to themselves privately? All of this chills my bones and turns my stomach (though it's not surprising or really "news") not only because few people would consider me perky or humpy, but because the clin psych profs I've met (only a few) are amongst the most socially awkward goofs I've ever encountered. What does it mean to be judged pleasant, fun, and socially adept by the man who comports himself with all the ease and grace of a bear in a tutu?


First, many areas of psychology interview, not just clinical. Every interview I went on, you arrived in the afternoon one day, had evening events (e.g. dinner with faculty and students, post-dinner activities) than a full solid day of interviewing at the department with more evening activities, and you flew out the next morning. I know some STEM fields that interview, or at least have an "open house" - others do not. A lot of it probably depends on the culture of the department, how closely students and advisors work together, etc. At least here, students and faculty spend a LOT of time together. I'm with my advisor probably a minimum of 3-4 hours a week, and that's as a senior student who is operating fairly independently - it was a LOT more early on. The programs where advisors are more like "The person who sorta does similar research you meet with twice a year" are far less likely to interview.

Second, appearance will play SOME role in any interview. That said, why are people so caught up on this issue? Yes, in a perfect world that wouldn't matter but we live in reality. There's a reason you should wear a suit and not pajama pants, etc. I've noticed several times that folks on this board tend to have an almost media-esque black & white view of certain topics. Just because appearance matters doesn't by any stretch of the imagination mean its the ONLY thing that matters. This is Stats 101 - just because something is statistically significant doesn't mean it accounts for 100% of the variance. Most of what we study actually accounts for a very small amount of the variance and while I haven't seen a meta on this, I have little reason to believe the role of appearance in interviews is any different.

RE: the process. Yes, I am saying that faculty quite openly acknowledge that interviews are not all about determining academic qualifications (though again...this needs to stop getting made into a black & white issue where they are ONLY interview for one purpose or another). Our faculty tell our undergrads who are applying that information. Grad students are involved in the interview process, and we are told that. We have a yearly "How to get into grad school" meeting for our RAs and they are told this. This is not any big secret. You aren't going to get anyone outright saying they look for "pretty" people (again, you seem to be very focused on appearance). I've never heard that discussed, I was just making the point previously that we know it certainly factors into subjective ratings of individuals (along with many other things).

The main point is that if you are an *******, people aren't going to like you and aren't going to want to accept you. That's a big part of what faculty are looking for at interviews, not whether or not you can get a good GPA, publish a lot of papers, etc. Whether you are going to be a miserable, nasty human being who they will dread every moment they have to spend interacting with over the next 5 years is obviously going to factor into the odds of acceptance. Obviously its a bit more nuanced than that, but I'm using extremes because my point seems to be getting lost in here. This doesn't mean anyone who doesn't skip in singing about rainbows is going to get rejected. Some awkward faculty might prefer slightly awkward students. Some particularly aggressive faculty might look for students who are more submissive regarding their research direction, or perhaps the opposite and will want students who are willing to step over their mother's grave to get one more publication. Some laid back faculty might want someone who they think will be smart and productive, but is just a generally nice and fun person. This is the elusive "fit" characteristic that always gets labeled. Departments have a culture, labs have a culture, etc. This is what faculty (or at least many of the ones I've met) are trying to determine with the interview, not necessarily who will be the most productive, who knows their research area the best, etc. With a handful of exceptions, most of the faculty I've met seem pretty normal, but I imagine this process is different with those who aren't.

Personally, I don't see the problem with it working like this. I think failure to consider things like this in interviews is how you often end up with some of those faculty members we may dislike (e.g. sexual harassment was mentioned earlier). I'd like it if appearance didn't matter. I'd like it if there was a better system for achieving this. I don't think there's anything wrong with whether or not a faculty member "clicks" with a student being a factor in admission.

Edit: PS - No worries regarding the CV, I was just curious. Though one quick point that may or may not be relevant in this case - not all adjuncts are created equal either. If you look at our department website, we will have several "adjuncts" (its technically a different label here, but the position is the same) listed who earn well into the 6 figures. Their adjunct appointment is not for teaching a class or two, its an academic affiliation when their primary appointment is elsewhere. Whether that was the case for the person you mentioned I obviously have no idea, but its important to keep in mind that at least in psychology, adjunct doesn't necessarily mean the person is being paid a few thousand dollars to teach a class or two.
 
Not the actual interview, but usually you spend two days touring the department, going out to dinner, maybe going to a social, and often you stay with a grad student. So although the actual interviewing is usually only a few hours, you still have to be "on" for the whole interview weekend.

Thanks Cara. That's fascinating. I'd been stupidly assuming that it was a 20-60 minute interview and you're out. In our social science doc program we offer all of the above, but to admits (usually referred to as "prospectives"). It's all about the department courting already admitted students, so the pressure is off of them (or at least so they believe), and they're relatively free to drop in or out of particular events (i.e. pass on din-din at Crappy's Slopalot with the current grad students if they like). Our grad students can be pretty inappropriate, so these events can feel kind of slimy.

I'm guessing, however, that all this is more associated with funded uni-based programs than with PsyD/pro schools. Seems like the pro schools would wanna get folks in and out and not dally, but again here, maybe I'm wrong.

edit: Thanks to you too, Ollie, delayed posting while untangling social worky problems for elderly parent--there we go again. Just noticed your generous reply.
 
Not the actual interview, but usually you spend two days touring the department, going out to dinner, maybe going to a social, and often you stay with a grad student. So although the actual interviewing is usually only a few hours, you still have to be "on" for the whole interview weekend.

I love hearing insane stories from grad students about the odd prospective students that have stayed with them. My favorites have been students that have no boundaries (using the grad students toothbrushes, razors, going through belongings, etc.) or the one student that just refused to leave after the weekend was over. Or the interviewees asking about the hook-up scene and wanting to go to the bar. Good times.
 
I love hearing insane stories from grad students about the odd prospective students that have stayed with them. My favorites have been students that have no boundaries (using the grad students toothbrushes, razors, going through belongings, etc.) or the one student that just refused to leave after the weekend was over. Or the interviewees asking about the hook-up scene and wanting to go to the bar. Good times.

I posted a story on here a couple of years ago about a prospective student who stayed with me. She missed her flight (life happens), so she made her b/f drive her (8+ hr). She finally arrived around 1:30am-2:00am, was really rude, and left my spare bedroom and bathroom a mess the next morning. The only redeeming part of the whole experience was that her boyfriend was a really nice guy and he apologized repeatedly for her. Evidently her awesomeness continued for her interview, as I didn't see her name on the offer list.

She was only slightly better than the guy who told me an anti-semetic joke during a Meet & Greet. I didn't have a nametag on identifying my affiliation, but come on! He had a stellar CV, but between that and his rude comments about one of the faculty members who interviewed him....his offer must have gotten lost in the mail. :laugh:

Then there was the girl who showed up to her interviews dressed like a lady of the night...

Moral of the above examples: Don't be an idiot.
 
New sticky. Interview horror stories. LOL
 
New sticky. Interview horror stories. LOL

I've got one from the other side of the equation. Friend is the (already admitted) prospective, and stays with Current Grad Student. Brings nice bottle of wine as hospitality gift. Response of Current Grad Student:

a. "Thank you, how thoughtful! Let's uncork this puppy quick!"
b. "Thank you, how thoughtful! I'll just put this aside for later."
c. (Recoils in horror and disgust as though prospective student has just thrown a scorpion at her).

I guess Religion X, to which Current Grad Student had recently converted, prohibited manners as well as consumption of alcohol.
 
I posted a story on here a couple of years ago about a prospective student who stayed with me. She missed her flight (life happens), so she made her b/f drive her (8+ hr). She finally arrived around 1:30am-2:00am, was really rude, and left my spare bedroom and bathroom a mess the next morning. The only redeeming part of the whole experience was that her boyfriend was a really nice guy and he apologized repeatedly for her. Evidently her awesomeness continued for her interview, as I didn't see her name on the offer list.

She was only slightly better than the guy who told me an anti-semetic joke during a Meet & Greet. I didn't have a nametag on identifying my affiliation, but come on! He had a stellar CV, but between that and his rude comments about one of the faculty members who interviewed him....his offer must have gotten lost in the mail. :laugh:

Then there was the girl who showed up to her interviews dressed like a lady of the night...

Moral of the above examples: Don't be an idiot.

We've had some real doozies the past few years. I shake my head at some of them and wonder if they really thought they could get away with it.

Last year (I think), we had a student who teared up or broke down crying during an interview with one professor. Instead of going to the restroom and tidying herself before her next interview, she went that way to her next interview immediately afterward. It was obvious that she had been crying. The next prof was somewhat empathetic initially. Until the applicant started bashing the previous professor... and then started criticizing other applicants to boot (she had been doing the same thing during the faculty/applicant dinner the previous evening). It did not end well.

We've had gals show up in fishnet stockings. Who the frak does this? I have a pair or two, but sheesh, I'm not going to show up bedecked in glittery fishnets with holes in them. Then there was the gal who interviewed with no undergarments. Sharon Stone anyone? There were multiple folks (myself included) who caught an unfortunate full frontal view of this gal during her interviews. On multiple occasions. Deer in headlights. :eek: Must look away. Cannot look at applicant but if you don't then she wonders what is wrong. But if you do . . . Good Buddha almighty. Who. The. Frak. Does these things?
 
Sharon Stone anyone?

Speaking of skirts...that's another area of appearance-related insecurity for me. How tolerant do you think psych faculty in major metro centers are of a spectrum of gender expression? I'm identifiable as a woman, but consider skirts, makeup, and high heels to be "drag" for me. I wouldn't clomp on in to an interview in my beloved hiking boots, but I'd probably attend in a pants suit, or smart blouse and slacks with flats and no makeup. Unless I got the impression that this was a deal-breaking faux pas. I've been thinking about it because even the radical queer sexuality scholars I know femmed it up for the academic job market...
 
Speaking of skirts...that's another area of appearance-related insecurity for me. How tolerant do you think psych faculty in major metro centers are of a spectrum of gender expression? I'm identifiable as a woman, but consider skirts, makeup, and high heels to be "drag" for me. I wouldn't clomp on in to an interview in my beloved hiking boots, but I'd probably attend in a pants suit, or smart blouse and slacks with flats and no makeup. Unless I got the impression that this was a deal-breaking faux pas. I've been thinking about it because even the radical queer sexuality scholars I know femmed it up for the academic job market...

Pant suits are quite common, as are blouses and various similar setups. Common sense options seem to work just fine, but avoid the common undergrad look of leggings, tshirt, and a dazed look. :laugh:
 
Speaking of skirts...that's another area of appearance-related insecurity for me. How tolerant do you think psych faculty in major metro centers are of a spectrum of gender expression? I'm identifiable as a woman, but consider skirts, makeup, and high heels to be "drag" for me. I wouldn't clomp on in to an interview in my beloved hiking boots, but I'd probably attend in a pants suit, or smart blouse and slacks with flats and no makeup. Unless I got the impression that this was a deal-breaking faux pas. I've been thinking about it because even the radical queer sexuality scholars I know femmed it up for the academic job market...

I think you'll be fine as long as you're clean and properly groomed. I wore a pants suit (as do many folks--it's frakkin' cold in many of these places!), flats (or shoes with a minimum flat/stacked heel), and no make-up. I think the only folks who comment re: hair/make-up are the idjit grad students/applicants who think you need to be America's Next Top Model or whatever silly show they're watching now.
 
Speaking of skirts...that's another area of appearance-related insecurity for me. How tolerant do you think psych faculty in major metro centers are of a spectrum of gender expression? I'm identifiable as a woman, but consider skirts, makeup, and high heels to be "drag" for me. I wouldn't clomp on in to an interview in my beloved hiking boots, but I'd probably attend in a pants suit, or smart blouse and slacks with flats and no makeup. Unless I got the impression that this was a deal-breaking faux pas. I've been thinking about it because even the radical queer sexuality scholars I know femmed it up for the academic job market...

The make-up bit may or may not make a difference, unfortunately, depending on the people involved. Personally, I'd say that so long as you were just as well-groomed as everyone else (and you've said nothing to indicate you wouldn't be), it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

As for attire, every year I've attended interviews in my program, the majority of females have worn pantsuits. This might be in part due to interviews occurring when it's still somewhat chilly, but even to thesis/dissertation meetings, most female students in our department tend to wear slacks.

I think it was a fairly even split between slacks and skirts during internship interviews, as best I can remember. Again, possibly in part being due to those occurring in Dec/Jan.
 
The make-up bit may or may not make a difference, unfortunately, depending on the people involved. Personally, I'd say that so long as you were just as well-groomed as everyone else (and you've said nothing to indicate you wouldn't be), it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

As for attire, every year I've attended interviews in my program, the majority of females have worn pantsuits. This might be in part due to interviews occurring when it's still somewhat chilly, but even to thesis/dissertation meetings, most female students in our department tend to wear slacks.

I think it was a fairly even split between slacks and skirts during internship interviews, as best I can remember. Again, possibly in part being due to those occurring in Dec/Jan.

Yep, I'm actually surprised when I see an applicant (student or faculty candidate) wear a skirt as it seems that so many folks wear pant suits for the most part.

However, there does seem to be a trend in the past few years (in our program) that more female student applicants are wearing skirts for some reason. Not sure why. It's still cold as heck. It's cold. There's snow. It's windy as frak. Why would you put yourself through that torture? :scared:
 
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