Caregiver at Alzheimers special care facility count as clinical experience?

[ZaneKaiser]

I work at a Dementia care facility as a caregiver and wonder if counts as any meaningful experience, specifically clinical experience?

I work part time/casual and spend the entire job caring for the patient (brushing their teeth, toileting them, feeding them, putting them to bed.)

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[MedPR]

Yes

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[stevecoral155]

Yes.

 

[survivordo]

Absolutely!

 

[einstein1990]

Yes. Usually anything with patients = clinical. Depends on the setting, though.

 

[LizzyM]

I'm ambivalent about that as a clinical experience. It should be listed as "employment, non-military" and it should not be your only exposure to medicine/health care.

You are providing custodial care for people who are unable to care for themselves. By that logic, babysitting toddlers is clinical pediatrics. That said, no employment that has you interacting with the disabled is a bad job for a pre-med.

 

[TriagePreMed]

I'm ambivalent about that as a clinical experience. It should be listed as "employment, non-military" and it should not be your only exposure to medicine/health care.

You are providing custodial care for people who are unable to care for themselves. By that logic, babysitting toddlers is clinical pediatrics. That said, no employment that has you interacting with the disabled is a bad job for a pre-med.

I don't understand. Most hospital volunteering (e.g. emergency department) is even less hands-on as the position this person is working in yet we classy hospital volunteering as clinical.

 

[premedgrad]

But the OP can clearly "smell patients". And isn't that your own guideline, LizzyM? Also, I think the babysitting comparison is a bit off because sick patients are not involved in that hypothetical...

 

[LizzyM]

But the OP can clearly "smell patients". And isn't that your own guideline, LizzyM? Also, I think the babysitting comparison is a bit off because sick patients are not involved in that hypothetical...

Are they patients or are they "residents"? Are patients with physical or mental disabilities "patients" 24/7 or are they people who go about their lives?

If you babysit for a kid with a broken arm and help him brush his teeth and put him to bed is that clinical because he has a broken arm in a cast?

Hands on services doesn't make a service "clinical" or every barber in town could claim clinical experience with patients who have hypertension, diabetes, and other common chronic conditions treated in an outpatient setting.

How is brushing the teeth, feeding and putting to bed a demented adult a clinical service?

I'd be much happier calling it "clinical" if there are physicians present (as in the Emergency Department) or licensed profesisonals providing therapy under doctor's orders with your assistance (as in physical therapy or occupational therapy).

Is wheelchair basketball "clinical" because the people has disabilities that make it impossible to run on the court? Discuss.

 

[TriagePreMed]

I'd be much happier calling it "clinical" if there are physicians present (as in the Emergency Department) or licensed profesisonals providing therapy under doctor's orders with your assistance (as in physical therapy or occupational therapy).

So you think at a dementia care facility there aren't any nurses or or other health professionals around? And having a doctor around is all that's needed to make it clinical? So if I change a tire in a parking lot next to a doctor I can make it clinical?I think your examples are a clear hyperbole as my last question is. Do you seriously believe that anyone would want to claim babysitting and barbershop work as clinical or that it is remotely equal to someone working in a professional facility with patients suffering from real disorders requiring you to take it into account in all your interactions?

 

[ZaneKaiser]

Are they patients or are they "residents"? Are patients with physical or mental disabilities "patients" 24/7 or are they people who go about their lives?

If you babysit for a kid with a broken arm and help him brush his teeth and put him to bed is that clinical because he has a broken arm in a cast?

Hands on services doesn't make a service "clinical" or every barber in town could claim clinical experience with patients who have hypertension, diabetes, and other common chronic conditions treated in an outpatient setting.

How is brushing the teeth, feeding and putting to bed a demented adult a clinical service?

I'd be much happier calling it "clinical" if there are physicians present (as in the Emergency Department) or licensed profesisonals providing therapy under doctor's orders with your assistance (as in physical therapy or occupational therapy).

Is wheelchair basketball "clinical" because the people has disabilities that make it impossible to run on the court? Discuss.

I see nurses work on the patients on a daily basis. I assist and witness them giving enemas, treat bed sores, etc. I also document and report observations of patient behavior and physical symptoms to the charge nurses.

 

[LizzyM]

I see nurses work on the patients on a daily basis. I assist and witness them giving enemas, treat bed sores, etc. I also document and report observations of patient behavior and physical symptoms to the charge nurses.

That is still "employment, non-military". Describe your job responsibilities in the free text section and let adcoms decide. What you've written here is a little more clinical than brushing their teeth and tucking them into bed. Enemas and treatment of decubiti are things done under doctor's orders, the custodial care is not.

 

[Omppu27]

Very surprised an admin is not considering this as a clinical experience.... Makes me sorta reconsider what clinical ex. actually is...

 

[487806]

I work at a Dementia care facility as a caregiver and wonder if counts as any meaningful experience, specifically clinical experience?

I work part time/casual and spend the entire job caring for the patient (brushing their teeth, toileting them, feeding them, putting them to bed.)

Initially, I was unsure of this matter, but thanks to LizzyM's input, I think I understood. Your activities are similar to what i'm doing at a local nursing home, but I wouldn't consider that as a clinical experience. Rather, clinical experience refers mainly to shadowing doctors or hospital volunteering. Of course, these cases might not always be hands-on, which makes sense since you need to be certified to adequately treat them. In your case, you're simply helping a resident out, which is actually a non-clinical experience. Instead, I would work as a technician in a local hospital if you want clinical experience

 

[loveoforganic2]

Yeah, no comprende. Wheeling someone around in a hospital = clinical. Helping with ADL's for Alzheimers patients is not? As a med student having no stake in this game anymore, I'm not seeing it. A significant amount of my clinical experience ("clinical experience"?) was working with patients in a psychiatric hospital. I see this as more detached from what a lay person would consider "medicine" than what the OP described. Are the interpersonal skills very different between

A) providing ADL's for individuals in a manner that avoids deprecation and promotes self respect and empowerment
and
B) wheeling someone in an enfeebled state from their hospital bed to dialysis?

If you want to argue that this doesn't provide insight into the career of a physician, I completely agree - you need to shadow or gain insight into that in some other way. But this is clearly clinical experience that requires similar skills (at least to do the job well) as are required in interacting with any other patients in any other role

LizzyM, obviously your opinion holds as fact, at least for your applicants at your school, but I have a hard time seeing this being anywhere near a universal opinion

 

[487806]

So you think at a dementia care facility there aren't any nurses or or other health professionals around? And having a doctor around is all that's needed to make it clinical? So if I change a tire in a parking lot next to a doctor I can make it clinical?I think your examples are a clear hyperbole as my last question is. Do you seriously believe that anyone would want to claim babysitting and barbershop work as clinical or that it is remotely equal to someone working in a professional facility with patients suffering from real disorders requiring you to take it into account in all your interactions?

That's still non-clinical no matter how you spin it. If op were instead working as a nursing assistant, such experience would be clinical.

 

[487806]

Yeah, no comprende. Wheeling someone around in a hospital = clinical. Helping with ADL's for Alzheimers patients is not? As a med student having no stake in this game anymore, I'm not seeing it

Usually, if something is clinical, it involves working at a hospital or in a clinic. Technicians and nursing assistants are clinical, but merely caring for someone is non-clinical

 

[loveoforganic2]

Usually, if something is clinical, it involves working at a hospital or in a clinic. Technicians and nursing assistants are clinical, but merely caring for someone is non-clinical

Question: Is hospice work, in which you go to see individuals at their place of residence, a clinical activity?

 

[TriagePreMed]

That's still non-clinical no matter how you spin it. If op were instead working as a nursing assistant, such experience would be clinical.

But you're telling me that things like handing water or giving a pillow as ED volunteer is? Come on.

 

[LizzyM]

Sick and injured people in the hospital are patients. Assisting then and assisting those hired to provide clinical services to them is a clinical experience if you are close enough to smell the patients. (i.e. not in the gift shop).

People who are living in their own home, in a nursing home, in a board and care home, participating in sports programs, playing bingo do not wear the label patients. If they are not patients, how can it be a clinical experience?

That said, some adcoms seem to be looking for "volunteer, non-clinical" activities and also value employment so there is no harm in having been employed in a setting that required hands-on care of other individuals, or in settings where you attended to the needs of the poor, dying, illiterate or others with unmet needs.

Clinical experiences are meant, I think based on what I see adcom members value, on seeing what it is that physicians do and what the environment is like where health care is being delivered by physicians and others.

 

[loveoforganic2]

Clinical experiences are meant, I think based on what I see adcom members value, on seeing what it is that physicians do and what the environment is like where health care is being delivered by physicians and others.

I don't see how that isn't fully taken care of by shadowing. Clinical experience, to me, is the actual interaction with patients (defining the term more liberally than you).

Shadowing for me is a far more detached experience than actually interacting with patients. You might say, while shadowing, "wow, the patient really trusts the doctor with the information he gives" or "the doctor does a good job of keeping the patient from being uncomfortable." Actually being the individual with the responsibility for the patient is an entirely different experience, and obtaining that experience doesn't require seeing patients under the immediate care of a physician.

 

[amad01]

You have to remember the whole point of the requirement of clinical experience for med school... Changing an old person's diaper isn't going to make you a good doctor. The reason adcoms want clinical experience is so you know what a physician does, so that they know you are making a well informed decision.

"Patient care" is what I feel most of you are trying to refer to... but a pre-med isn't in the position to REALLY be able to get quality patient care experience... especially compared to the type of patient care doctors perform! Why would adcoms care if you have "cared" for patients by giving them water or blankets or changing diapers or took their blood etc..?

All they want to know is that you understand what a doctor does and that you are ready to invest a hell of a lot to become one.

 

[mehc012]

Sick and injured people in the hospital are patients. Assisting then and assisting those hired to provide clinical services to them is a clinical experience if you are close enough to smell the patients. (i.e. not in the gift shop).

People who are living in their own home, in a nursing home, in a board and care home, participating in sports programs, playing bingo do not wear the label patients. If they are not patients, how can it be a clinical experience?

That said, some adcoms seem to be looking for "volunteer, non-clinical" activities and also value employment so there is no harm in having been employed in a setting that required hands-on care of other individuals, or in settings where you attended to the needs of the poor, dying, illiterate or others with unmet needs.

Clinical experiences are meant, I think based on what I see adcom members value, on seeing what it is that physicians do and what the environment is like where health care is being delivered by physicians and others.

I...I think this is the first time I have ever disagreed with any aspect of something LizzyM has said.

I'm sorry, but nursing homes definitely have patients, refer to them as patients, etc...it is a facility for long-term management of medical conditions. You don't go to a nursing home unless you need medical care. Now, the ratio of doctors:nurses is ridiculously lower than in a hospital setting, but let's face it, the majority of interactions in many hospital volunteer positions tend to be with nursing staff as well. You still get to witness aspects such as medication compliance, wound care, suture removal, PT...

I'm not arguing that a nursing home volunteer position should count as clinical. I'm just saying that if it doesn't, "clinical volunteering" ought to be defined as "volunteering with a large amount of doctor contact" rather than "volunteering with a large amount of patient contact".

 

[LizzyM]

I...I think this is the first time I have ever disagreed with any aspect of something LizzyM has said.

I'm sorry, but nursing homes definitely have patients, refer to them as patients, etc...it is a facility for long-term management of medical conditions. You don't go to a nursing home unless you need medical care. <snip>

This is flat out wrong. Many nursing homes call the people who live there "residents" and the facility is considered their "home". Furthermore, many are there for custodial care meaning that they are too disabled, mentally and /or physically, to care for themselves but are not in need of services that could not be provided at home by a family member if they had a willing family member to do so (and the equipment such as a wheelchair, etc). This type of care is infrequently covered by Medicare and is either "self-pay" or, if someone has no assets (destitute), then Medicaid covers the difference between their income from social security/pension, etc and the cost of care.

Yes, there are nursing homes that take post-op patients, provide physical therapy and other services that in years past were provided in a hospital, and then discharge them in a matter of days. Typically, these servcies are covered by Medicare or other insurance plans provided the patient is continuing to make progress. Once progress stalls they must be discharged (same as rehab hospitals).

 

[pre med 2014]

I...I think this is the first time I have ever disagreed with any aspect of something LizzyM has said.

I'm sorry, but nursing homes definitely have patients, refer to them as patients, etc...it is a facility for long-term management of medical conditions. You don't go to a nursing home unless you need medical care. Now, the ratio of doctors:nurses is ridiculously lower than in a hospital setting, but let's face it, the majority of interactions in many hospital volunteer positions tend to be with nursing staff as well. You still get to witness aspects such as medication compliance, wound care, suture removal, PT...

I'm not arguing that a nursing home volunteer position should count as clinical. I'm just saying that if it doesn't, "clinical volunteering" ought to be defined as "volunteering with a large amount of doctor contact" rather than "volunteering with a large amount of patient contact".

I think LizzyM was mainly trying to make a point against listing it as a clinical experience rather than saying its not clinical at all. You very well could have some clinical experience from it administering meds, cleaning poops, etc...

But isn't clinical experience supposed to be for volunteer activities? If so, you can't just list 3000 hours or something for time you spent at work getting paid for.

 

[LizzyM]

I think LizzyM was mainly trying to make a point against listing it as a clinical experience rather than saying its not clinical at all. You very well could have some clinical experience from it administering meds, cleaning poops, etc...

But isn't clinical experience supposed to be for volunteer activities? If so, you can't just list 3000 hours or something for time you spent at work getting paid for.

AMCAS has a few different categories of "experience". One is "employment, military" and another is "employment, non-military". There is "volunteer, clinical" and "volunteer, non-clincal". Frankly, I've seen adcom members get more upset about not seeing "volunteer non-clinical" than anything else.

Clinical experience can be obtained as a volunteer or as an employee. I think that some adcoms will realize that learning how to deal with people are valuable experiences whether the experiences were obtained in a clinical setting (hospital/clinic in the presence of physicians) or in another setting (Special Olympics event, homeless shelter, retail pharmacy).

Separate from volunteering or working, the expectation is that applicants will have shadowing experiences. Frankly, I think that shadowing plus non-clinical volunteering is a good combination. Working or volunteering in a clincial setting is icing on the cake. There is something to be said for understanding how people live outside of the clinical setting, particularly people who are different from you (poorer, older, different race, etc) so that you have some knowledge of their lives outside of the clinical encounter to better understand where they are coming from.

 

[Geebeejay]

Very surprised an admin is not considering this as a clinical experience.... Makes me sorta reconsider what clinical ex. actually is...

From what I've always understood, clinical experience needs to happen in a clinic - that means there needs to be patients, but there also need to be medical staff (nurses, physicians, etc.) staffed in the facility. Working/volunteering in a "clinic" therefore affords the individual to witness and experience a medical setting related to what they will experience in medical school.

This sounds like good "patient-care experience", but not necessarily clinical experience. I understand what lizzy is saying; that this is a good experience but shouldn't substitute for one in a hospital/clinical setting.

 

[487806]

I...I think this is the first time I have ever disagreed with any aspect of something LizzyM has said.

I'm sorry, but nursing homes definitely have patients, refer to them as patients, etc...it is a facility for long-term management of medical conditions. You don't go to a nursing home unless you need medical care.

If I call my friends who reside in my local nursing home as patients, I will be thrown out of that place immediately. Simply put, you're incorrect and I don't understand the great deal of opposition to LizzyM's assessment (not surprisingly, most of the opposition comes from premeds ). Nursing home = non-clinical and people who reside there aren't patients, but residents (unless you are a nursing assistant). Hospital/clinic = clinical experience as long as you have patient contact (which many argue is a waste of time for delivering pillows, food etc... well, be a technician).

 

[Geebeejay]

I think LizzyM was mainly trying to make a point against listing it as a clinical experience rather than saying its not clinical at all. You very well could have some clinical experience from it administering meds, cleaning poops, etc...

But isn't clinical experience supposed to be for volunteer activities? If so, you can't just list 3000 hours or something for time you spent at work getting paid for.

I worked as a nursing assistant in an ED for 2.5 years (5000 hours) and listed it as "employment, non-military". But labelling and semantics aside, how is that anything BUT 5000 hours of paid clinical experience?

 

[mehc012]

This is flat out wrong. Many nursing homes call the people who live there "residents" and the facility is considered their "home". Furthermore, many are there for custodial care meaning that they are too disabled, mentally and /or physically, to care for themselves but are not in need of services that could not be provided at home by a family member if they had a willing family member to do so (and the equipment such as a wheelchair, etc). This type of care is infrequently covered by Medicare and is either "self-pay" or, if someone has no assets (destitute), then Medicaid covers the difference between their income from social security/pension, etc and the cost of care.

Yes, there are nursing homes that take post-op patients, provide physical therapy and other services that in years past were provided in a hospital, and then discharge them in a matter of days. Typically, these servcies are covered by Medicare or other insurance plans provided the patient is continuing to make progress. Once progress stalls they must be discharged (same as rehab hospitals).

Haha, I knew I'd get a ton of flak for that one...you don't mess with LizzyM! More importantly, I knew you would have a reasonable set of criteria to follow up with, which I appreciate.

I suppose that's what I get from going with personal experience...the nursing home I was thinking of I knew primarily through my mother, who did work there as a nurse. 'Resident' was quite often used, yes, but so was 'patient' (often depended on which wing you were in), and there was a good mix of long-term, short-term, and long-term-with-short-term-things-too. I've always heard the others referred to as "residential facilities" or "long-term-care" facilities, and there are a looot fewer nurses there and no doctors, compared to "nursing homes".

At any rate, neither of these would fulfill the goal of clinical volunteering, which is to gain exposure to doctors doing doctory things and interacting with patients (that's the technical phrasing). So, yeah, I didn't disagree with the conclusion, just with the assertion that there were no patients at nursing homes, because in my experience that's what I had seen That's why we have this forum, so we can benefit from a whole ton of different experiences and come up with more informed conclusions, right?

 

[mehc012]

If I call my friends who reside in my local nursing home as patients, I will be thrown out of that place immediately. Simply put, you're incorrect and I don't understand the great deal of opposition to LizzyM's assessment (not surprisingly, most of the opposition comes from premeds ). Nursing home = non-clinical and people who reside there aren't patients, but residents (unless you are a nursing assistant). Hospital/clinic = clinical experience as long as you have patient contact (which many argue is a waste of time for delivering pillows, food etc... well, be a technician).

Whoa, there...again, wasn't disagreeing with the conclusion, just the "they're not patients" aspect. At yours, apparently they are not called that. At mine, they were. And yeah, most of the discussion here is from premeds, because, you know, it's the premed forum.

 

[911 Turbo]

Just wondering,


Is an asylum an OK setting for clinical volunteering?

 

[amad01]

Just wondering,


Is an asylum an OK setting for clinical volunteering?

Or what about a hospice program that cares for certain individuals on hospice care in the old folk home...

 

[487806]

Whoa, there...again, wasn't disagreeing with the conclusion, just the "they're not patients" aspect. At yours, apparently they are not called that. At mine, they were. And yeah, most of the discussion here is from premeds, because, you know, it's the premed forum.

No worries. It seems a bit odd to see numerous premeds and a med student vs. an adcom in a thread, so I tried to level the playing field (which really wouldn't matter anyhow).

 

[mehc012]

No worries. It seems a bit odd to see numerous premeds and a med student vs. an adcom in a thread, so I tried to level the playing field (which really wouldn't matter anyhow).

...pretty sure that 50 premeds vs LizzyM is in no way an even playing field. We wouldn't stand a chance, and if we actually did "win" we'd just lose in the long run when we saw how well "but I won an internet argument saying it counts!" worked on the irl adcoms!
So, yeah...I did not make that post to win the clinical experience debate; my opinions of what an adcom would think are entirely irrelevant. I was just surprised, as the statement conflicted with my experience.

 

[487806]

...pretty sure that 50 premeds vs LizzyM is in no way an even playing field. We wouldn't stand a chance, and if we actually did "win" we'd just lose in the long run when we saw how well "but I won an internet argument saying it counts!" worked on the irl adcoms!
So, yeah...I did not make that post to win the clinical experience debate; my opinions of what an adcom would think are entirely irrelevant. I was just surprised, as the statement conflicted with my experience.

Understood, but THREE premeds destroyed a popular resident few days ago.

 

[mehc012]

Understood, but THREE premeds destroyed a popular resident few days ago.

If by 'destroyed' you mean 'made themselves look like tools', then sure.

Then again, this is a question specifically about how adcoms will see something...answered by an adcom. There's no 'winning' in this debate, there's "having your question answered by someone in a position to know" and "being too stubborn to accept that answer, and thus proceeding with incorrect assumptions." The second option may feel like winning, but it's really just a waste of a valuable resource.

The other, if we're thinking of the same thread, was just people being overly rude and confrontational about a tangent debate on a subject where no one is an expert, really. Very different...more akin to if I had followed proper internet protocol in this thread, aka gotten super insulted by your first post, written an angry, ad hominem attack in response, and started a flame war.

 

[487806]

If by 'destroyed' you mean 'made themselves look like tools', then sure.

Then again, this is a question specifically about how adcoms will see something...answered by an adcom. There's no 'winning' in this debate, there's "having your question answered by someone in a position to know" and "being too stubborn to accept that answer, and thus proceeding with incorrect assumptions." The second option may feel like winning, but it's really just a waste of a valuable resource.

The other, if we're thinking of the same thread, was just people being overly rude and confrontational about a tangent debate on a subject where no one is an expert, really. Very different...more akin to if I had followed proper internet protocol in this thread, aka gotten super insulted by your first post, written an angry, ad hominem attack in response, and started a flame war.

At least you understood what I meant. I think my radar mistingled.