Caribbean schools vs. Europe

[finding_knowledge]

Hello,

I have two semesters left to finish with my bachelors. As of right now my GPA is complete trash (2.6) I'm working really hard to get up on my last two semesters. I've been thinking about Caribbean med schools for a while now and for many other reasons beside the obvious. I have experienced in the med field; I've worked at a doctors office, shadowed a doctor and also volunteered at the hospital. I know I have the potential to be a successful physician but my grades however tells a different story.

I spoke to my advisor and this was her suggestion "Finish my bachelors on a strong note (better grades), then take post-grad courses, take the GRE and apply to a graduate school and get my masters with strong solid grades, and then proceed on to take the MCAT and then apply to medical school". She then suggested that maybe the medical field is not for me 🙁 I believe that taking her path would take approximately a few years (2 or 3 years). I hated the idea and went back to doing some more research.

I started looking at some schools in London and couldn't find their requirements for international students. So then, I refocus on the Caribbean (I have read as much thread as I can and they are quite informative). This is pretty lenghty, I just wanted to paint a picture to get more accurate answers.

I guess what I'm trying to say is should I listen to my advisor, or go with my guts and apply to medical school elsewhere. If so, where do you suggest? For the moment, I'm really liking SGU and Ross. Any information on med school in London would be appreciated as well.

Thank you all in advance.

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[MrLogan13]

Do a post bacc. A few years is nothing.

 

[doit4themunki]

I don't know anything about other international schools but AVOID THE CARIBBEAN. I am going through the interview and residency application process now and I feel SO BAD for the students coming from these schools. You are at a HUGE disadvantage for residency (I'm sure you can find many threads about this on SDN). I've just heard too many horror stories from these people on the interview trail.

You don't necessarily need to take the GRE and get like an MPH or something but I agree with above, do a post bacc. There are many well established respectable post bacc programs for people in your situation. Many of them put you through the exact same classes you would take first year of med school (anatomy, physiology, etc). If you can blow a post bacc program out of the water and kill your MCAT it will make adcoms much less weary of your undergrad GPA and show you are someone who will be able to handle the rigors of medical school as well as the endless standardized tests....

You can start here: https://services.aamc.org/postbac/getprogs.cfm. Make sure you do your research on these post bacc programs...the percentage of people who get into med school after they've gone through it, try to get a sense of how well established these programs are, etc. Also, some will have a minimum GPA for admission (quick glance looks like many are 3.0) so you may have to take some extra classes to get yourself there.

This all might take some time BUT it is 100% worth it to be able to go to an US med school.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I started looking at some schools in London and couldn't find their requirements for international students. So then, I refocus on the Caribbean (I have read as much thread as I can and they are quite informative). This is pretty lenghty, I just wanted to paint a picture to get more accurate answers.

I guess what I'm trying to say is should I listen to my advisor, or go with my guts and apply to medical school elsewhere. If so, where do you suggest? For the moment, I'm really liking SGU and Ross. Any information on med school in London would be appreciated as well.

Thank you all in advance.

In general, the requirements for Commonwealth countries are fairly stringent; thus, if you cannot get into a US school, you are unlikely to obtain admission to a school in London. SDN has international forums including one for the UK, you might wish to check there as I'm sure others have posted the requirements for admission to a UK medical school.

But as a piece of advice, rushing things is never good. You are in an unfortunate position and the additional schooling may not result in a medical school education but rushing to the Caribbean or elsewhere without trying to obtain admission here (after doing what your advisor has advised) is ill advised.

 

[NickNaylor]

"I know I have the potential to succeed as a physician but my grades tell a different story." You do understand that medical school is little more than an academic marathon, right? With all due respect, past performance predicts future behavior, and your predicted future behavior isn't that great. IMO your only shot at realistically having a fruitful medical career is to spend the time necessary to boost your resume and GPA, demonstrate that you can handle a medical curriculum, and get into a US MD or DO school. It looks like you haven't even considered DO schools based on your post. I would make that your goal. Going to the Caribbean is a very bad idea. The effects of that choice will be long-lasting, and while, yes, there are people who trained at SGU, Ross, etc. who now work in academic departments or are otherwise successful, understand that that is not a typical result, and it likely won't be yours. Your career potential is expanded infinitely by doing your training in the US. The time required to achieve that goal - in this case, possibly 2-3 years - is well worth not having to deal with the stress of being labeled a FMG.

And, frankly, 2-3 years isn't that much time. Build up your resume, have some fun and relax while doing it, and give the process a shot when you're ready.

 

[Goro]

If you're doing so poorly now, why do you think that you can do well in ANY medical school, anywhere????

Bolded below is a classic example of cognitive dissonance. Fix that, will ya?

Hello,

I have two semesters left to finish with my bachelors. As of right now my GPA is complete trash (2.6) I'm working really hard to get up on my last two semesters. I've been thinking about Caribbean med schools for a while now and for many other reasons beside the obvious. I have experienced in the med field; I've worked at a doctors office, shadowed a doctor and also volunteered at the hospital. I know I have the potential to be a successful physician but my grades however tells a different story.

I spoke to my advisor and this was her suggestion "Finish my bachelors on a strong note (better grades), then take post-grad courses, take the GRE and apply to a graduate school and get my masters with strong solid grades, and then proceed on to take the MCAT and then apply to medical school". She then suggested that maybe the medical field is not for me 🙁 I believe that taking her path would take approximately a few years (2 or 3 years). I hated the idea and went back to doing some more research.

I started looking at some schools in London and couldn't find their requirements for international students. So then, I refocus on the Caribbean (I have read as much thread as I can and they are quite informative). This is pretty lenghty, I just wanted to paint a picture to get more accurate answers.

I guess what I'm trying to say is should I listen to my advisor, or go with my guts and apply to medical school elsewhere. If so, where do you suggest? For the moment, I'm really liking SGU and Ross. Any information on med school in London would be appreciated as well.

Thank you all in advance.

 

[Eppur Si Muove]

If you search the forums for info on the Caribbean you'll see why it's nothing more than a tropical money pit with low chance of success. If you really wanted to go to a med school then you would take the time to do it right instead of looking for a high-risk shortcut.

 

[Aloft085]

Hello,

I have two semesters left to finish with my bachelors. As of right now my GPA is complete trash (2.6) I'm working really hard to get up on my last two semesters.

Why do you have such a trash GPA? Are those same issues going to reappear when you're in medical school, which is likely several times more difficult than your undergraduate program? I also urge you to reconsider a field other than medicine. Life sucks for marginal students who try to do everything they can to become doctors. Just accept your fate and do something else with your life.

If you have your mind set on going to medical school, sign up for a master's degree and get a 4.0. Choose a degree in something that will enable you to get a job in the event that you do not go to medical school.

Edit: Let me actually be helpful here and provide you with a resource. Check out this forum for low-GPA/MCAT success stories: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...ntrads-already-accepted-to-med-school.675835/

 

[gyngyn]

The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors.

The differential diagnosis (the potential etiology) for this finding is not pretty.
It includes: Institutional Actions, parental pressure, egotism, weak judgement, inability to delay gratification, poor research skills, gullibility, high risk behavior...
This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to take risks too! So some do get interviews.

A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!

 

[freemontie]

Spend two years re-taking courses you got a B- or lower in. Apply to D.O. schools using grade-replacement. That would be the most sensible option.

 

[sliceofbread136]

This is easy, grade replace and DO

 

[DokterMom]

The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors.

The differential diagnosis (the potential etiology) for this finding is not pretty.
It includes: Institutional Actions, parental pressure, egotism, weak judgement, inability to delay gratification, poor research skills, gullibility, high risk behavior...
This is not to say that there are some who no longer have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to take risks too! So some do get interviews.

A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!

Beautifully articulated -- All the reasons why discrimination against Caribbean graduates isn't baseless.

 

[finding_knowledge]

Thank you all for your responses... Based on what was said, it seems like I have way more options than I thought. Caribbean is no longer option so thank you for clearing that up.

 

[Instatewaiter]

There are 3 possible and very similar paths you could take. The last of which if the Carribean. I don't think you would survive to graduation and residency match in the Carribean just given your history. Quite frankly, there is nothing in your post that actually makes me think you "have the potential to be a successful physician." You are far too early in this process and everything you are posting belies the idea you can make it in med school. If you gave it a good college try and still got a 2.6... you're not going to survive medical school. Sorry. Quit now to save yourself time and lots of money. However, if you really slacked off and partied and that is why you got poor grades... you might be able to make it. You really need to be honest with yourself because it is going to cost you several tens of thousands of dollars to get into medical school and at least a few years.

There are a few ways you can play this depending on how quickly you want to find out if you can hack it. The quickest way would be to use the MCAT to gauge if you have a reasonable shot of getting into medical school with grade remediation. If you totally bomb the MCAT with a 100% effort (studying for at least a semester), it's not worth you spending 3 years finishing school and rehabing your grades b/c you're unlikely to get into medical school with low grades and a crap MCAT.

The second step is to do grade remediation. This will depend on whether you want to shoot for MD or DO.
MD- take undergraduate courses until your GPA is ~3.0 and then do an SMP. This will take a minimum of 2 years
- reasoning- if you graduate with a overall GPA of 2.75 and have 120 credits, it would take a full year of getting a 4.0 just to get your GPA to 3.0. It would take roughly 5 years to bring your GPA to a 3.5 which is why I recommend an SMP.
- The likelihood of you successfully navigating this path is very low. SMPs are very, very difficult and are only for people with strong MCATs. They are also expensive (like 50K expensive)

DO- retake all courses you did poorly on and the new grades will replace your old ones. This again will likely take 1-2 years to bring you to the competitive range.

The third path is to go outside the US.
First, going to medical school outside the US and coming back for residency is much, much harder than staying in the US and to successfully do this you need to have exceptional grades in med school. For someone who has really crappy grades to begin, this is not a realistic option.
- you are not even close to competitive for western European so forget those. What is left are Eastern european medical schools or the carribean, both not very good options. The most common being the Carribean. Despite what SGU will tell you (with their skewed statistics) the Carribean attrition is very high. The match rate for those that enter first year, even at the best Carribean medical school, is about 50%. So to take on 300K of debt and not have a job is a terrible idea.

TL;DR version
1) My basic gestault based on your attitude and current grades is that you probably won't make it into medical school. So, to save yourself the money, effort, and time, you should study over the next 2 semesters and take the MCAT. If you score well, go after medical school. If you don't, forget it and get on with your life. This could save you 3 years and tens of thousands of dollars.
2) If you do well on the MCAT, decide on MD or DO and go after that path. For you DO is probably more realistic option.
3) Only choose the carribean or non-US school if you have no other options and ISIS has a gun to your family's head

 

[Omppu27]

There are 3 possible and very similar paths you could take. The last of which if the Carribean. I don't think you would survive to graduation and residency match in the Carribean just given your history. Quite frankly, there is nothing in your post that actually makes me think you "have the potential to be a successful physician." You are far too early in this process and everything you are posting belies the idea you can make it in med school. If you gave it a good college try and still got a 2.6... you're not going to survive medical school. Sorry. Quit now to save yourself time and lots of money. However, if you really slacked off and partied and that is why you got poor grades... you might be able to make it. You really need to be honest with yourself because it is going to cost you several tens of thousands of dollars to get into medical school and at least a few years.

There are a few ways you can play this depending on how quickly you want to find out if you can hack it. The quickest way would be to use the MCAT to gauge if you have a reasonable shot of getting into medical school with grade remediation. If you totally bomb the MCAT with a 100% effort (studying for at least a semester), it's not worth you spending 3 years finishing school and rehabing your grades b/c you're unlikely to get into medical school with low grades and a crap MCAT.

The second step is to do grade remediation. This will depend on whether you want to shoot for MD or DO.
MD- take undergraduate courses until your GPA is ~3.0 and then do an SMP. This will take a minimum of 2 years
- reasoning- if you graduate with a overall GPA of 2.75 and have 120 credits, it would take a full year of getting a 4.0 just to get your GPA to 3.0. It would take roughly 5 years to bring your GPA to a 3.5 which is why I recommend an SMP.
- The likelihood of you successfully navigating this path is very low. SMPs are very, very difficult and are only for people with strong MCATs. They are also expensive (like 50K expensive)

DO- retake all courses you did poorly on and the new grades will replace your old ones. This again will likely take 1-2 years to bring you to the competitive range.

The third path is to go outside the US.
First, going to medical school outside the US and coming back for residency is much, much harder than staying in the US and to successfully do this you need to have exceptional grades in med school. For someone who has really crappy grades to begin, this is not a realistic option.
- you are not even close to competitive for western European so forget those. What is left are Eastern european medical schools or the carribean, both not very good options. The most common being the Carribean. Despite what SGU will tell you (with their skewed statistics) the Carribean attrition is very high. The match rate for those that enter first year, even at the best Carribean medical school, is about 50%. So to take on 300K of debt and not have a job is a terrible idea.

TL;DR version
1) My basic gestault based on your attitude and current grades is that you probably won't make it into medical school. So, to save yourself the money, effort, and time, you should study over the next 2 semesters and take the MCAT. If you score well, go after medical school. If you don't, forget it and get on with your life. This could save you 3 years and tens of thousands of dollars.
2) If you do well on the MCAT, decide on MD or DO and go after that path. For you DO is probably more realistic option.
3) Only choose the carribean or non-US school if you have no other options and ISIS has a gun to your family's head

Considering OP's low GPA, there's a good chance he/she won't do well on the MCAT because he/she doesn't have a sound background of the sciences.

OP, as others have mentioned, retake the classes you did poorly in, take the MCAT, apply DO. While you're taking these classes, build your resume as well with volunteering, shadowing, clinical experience, ect. BUT make sure your classes take priority and that you get A's. Good luck!

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

The second step is to do grade remediation. This will depend on whether you want to shoot for MD or DO.
MD- take undergraduate courses until your GPA is ~3.0 and then do an SMP. This will take a minimum of 2 years
- reasoning- if you graduate with a overall GPA of 2.75 and have 120 credits, it would take a full year of getting a 4.0 just to get your GPA to 3.0. It would take roughly 5 years to bring your GPA to a 3.5 which is why I recommend an SMP.
- The likelihood of you successfully navigating this path is very low. SMPs are very, very difficult and are only for people with strong MCATs. They are also expensive (like 50K expensive)

DO- retake all courses you did poorly on and the new grades will replace your old ones. This again will likely take 1-2 years to bring you to the competitive range.

Why would any sane person want to add another year of rigorous schooling and $50,000 on to their tab for an SMP? Do people really want an MD vs a DO that badly?

The rest of your post is gold, based on my experience. 👍

 

[aprimenumber]

Why would any sane person want to add another year of rigorous schooling and $50,000 on to their tab for an SMP? Do people really want an MD vs a DO that badly?

The rest of your post is gold, based on my experience. 👍

The way I see it, a SMP is essentially a lower risk/cost (time-wise and financially) version of the Caribbean, in that if you do really well, it can greatly boost your chances of becoming a physician, and if you do poorly, it can essentially kill that career option. Of course, with the lower risk also comes a lower reward.

For an applicant with a low GPA (particularly in higher-level courses, where a post-bacc would probably be useless), but with a decent MCAT, this option really isn't that bad since it attacks their weakness directly, especially if it's a program that serves as a backdoor to the medical school that it's affiliated with. I'm still not a fan of SMP's in general, as I view them as being another part of the market that's arisen to prey on pre-med desperation.

 

[Aloft085]

Why would any sane person want to add another year of rigorous schooling and $50,000 on to their tab for an SMP? Do people really want an MD vs a DO that badly?

The rest of your post is gold, based on my experience. 👍

Yeah, I don't get that either. The MD is valuable, but hell, you can take all of the same courses at your local university and save 80% of the cost. You're also more likely to get good grades doing it that way.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Why would any sane person want to add another year of rigorous schooling and $50,000 on to their tab for an SMP? Do people really want an MD vs a DO that badly?

The rest of your post is gold, based on my experience. 👍

Well it gives you more bang for your buck than retaking coures and proves you can hack it in medical school.
Also if you want to do something competitive or have your options wide open for residency, it makes sense to do an SMP.

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

Yeah, I don't get that either. The MD is valuable, but hell, you can take all of the same courses at your local university and save 80% of the cost. You're also more likely to get good grades doing it that way.

You made a great point about taking classes at your local uni and saving a boatload of cash. I did just that. $10,000 for 2.5 years of pre-med + upper level science courses was a much better investment than tuition for my private undergrad. Small state schools for the win!

Like @SouthernSurgeon mentioned, an SMP is probably a more efficient way of doing things, particularly if you've never taken any of the pre-reqs. I had not considered that case. 🙂

 

[Instatewaiter]

It's also a good option for non-trads who never took the pre-reqs to begin with. It's a comprehensive curriculum that gives you everything you need to meet the med school entrance requirements, and has a track record of successfully placing students into med school.

No you're thinking of an undergraduate post-bac program which are essentially the prerecs. An smp is different. It is the first year of medical school and are graduate level courses

 

[Instatewaiter]

You made a great point about taking classes at your local uni and saving a boatload of cash. I did just that. $10,000 for 2.5 years of pre-med + upper level science courses was a much better investment than tuition for my private undergrad. Small state schools for the win!

Like @SouthernSurgeon mentioned, an SMP is probably a more efficient way of doing things, particularly if you've never taken any of the pre-reqs. I had not considered that case. 🙂

In the vast majority of cases, need to have already taken the pre-recs for an smp.

 

[Instatewaiter]

You need to have already taken the pre-recs for an smp.

For those reading this thread, there is an entire post-bac forum where you can ask questions and get informed answers if you are interested