Peach Newport

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I always thought that Caribbean students were lucky to match at all, and if they did it was pretty much only to primary care. Everything my advisor told me said that American DOs will pretty much always to better at finding residency, and get better residencies, than Caribbean students. But then I looked at the match lists for Caribbean schools like Ross and St. George and they have great matches! tons of gen surg, urology, ophthalmology, derm, anaesthesia... all the big 3 match lists were better than any DO school list. What's going on here?
 
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Wjldenver

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I always thought that Caribbean students were lucky to match at all, and if they did it was pretty much only to primary care. Everything my advisor told me said that American DOs will pretty much always to better at finding residency, and get better residencies, than Caribbean students. But then I looked at the match lists for Caribbean schools like Ross and St. George and they have great matches! tons of gen surg, urology, ophthalmology, derm, anaesthesia... all the big 3 match lists were better than any DO school list. What's going on here?
OP, yep Caribbean is where it is at. Send a PM to one of Goro's buddies who got banned five times in one day and he will give you the scoop!

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/carribbean-vs-waiting-to-hear-from-dos.1214772/
 

MADD!!!

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OP has a point! I've seen the match lists as well as the resident bios on the hospital websites. But OP, a big difference is that although their matches are good, they're not 99%+ like most DO schools.

Also in terms of specialty, you can't just look at how many matched, but rather the percentage that matched to the total class overall. Also because of the merger, DO's will be gaining more recognition at more MD residencies that may have been biased against DO's

Alsooooo, I said this a while back, we have about 18k MD students in the U.S. And about 28-29k ACGME residency slots. We've got an additional 10k slots that will be empty, about 5k DO grads (who have roughly 3k AOA slots)... So who's going to fill up the rest of the residencies? Carribean grads and Int'l's. So there are slots, but mostly in primary care and in random areas. They fill the holes wherever they're empty.
 

Scrubs101

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DO school: quite a few a mission based and are trying to selectively choose students that want to match primary care. Some are not. Match rate = 99%

Carib: some match into competitive specialties. After a 40% attrition rate(not 100% sure might be more), not everyone is allowed to take the boards, a lot of students struggling to make it back to the US, etc etc.

Look past the shiny occasional "neuro/ortho" matches and see the truth OP


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SLC

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…Also because of the merger, DO's will be gaining more recognition at more MD residencies that may have been biased against DO's
It's true, I'm seeing this at my institutions other residency programs. I'm in primary care, my program has been DO friendly, but I'm starting to see DO's in the IM, Psych, Peds, and Surgery departments which have traditionally been very DO unfriendly. IM and GenSurg are watershed matches IMO, if you see DO's being taken into IM and GenSurg, other departments are generally soon to follow.
 

MADD!!!

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It's true, I'm seeing this at my institutions other residency programs. I'm in primary care, my program has been DO friendly, but I'm starting to see DO's in the IM, Psych, Peds, and Surgery departments which have traditionally been very DO unfriendly. IM and GenSurg are watershed matches IMO, if you see DO's being taken into IM and GenSurg, other departments are generally soon to follow.
This is a big deal coming from you. I follow your posts and you seem to be one of the most well informed members when it comes to residencies!
 

ortnakas

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The people that survive Caribbean schools do tend to match well. The problem is that surviving the Caribbean and getting TO the match is a long shot. I'll take a 99% chance at being a physician (maybe a specialist) over a 60% chance any day.
 

MADD!!!

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At the end of the day, as it's said over and over again, it all comes down to you. There are students every year who are from US M.D. Schools that don't match and people from the Carribean every year that do. Ive heard horror stories of people from U.S. MD schools who barely passed the USMLE (less than 200) and can't get a residency anywhere.
 

SLC

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This is a big deal coming from you. I follow your posts and you seem to be one of the most well informed members when it comes to residencies!
Yeah, the general vibe I get around here is just as I hoped/imagined it would be. Conversations seem to indicate the feeling that If DO's are falling under the ACGME blanket, they need to be given a fair and equal shake.

I can't say that's a universal opinion here, I obviously haven't talked to everyone. But those that I have spoken with seem to feel that way. My institution is probably not unique, but I also don't imagine this attitude is extremely widespread nationwide just yet either.

But I do think we'll see things change for the better somewhat rapidly as the merger takes its full effect.
 

SLC

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The people that survive Caribbean schools do tend to match well. The problem is that surviving the Caribbean and getting TO the match is a long shot. I'll take a 99% chance at being a physician (maybe a specialist) over a 60% chance any day.
I will say this. My program is hesitant to take Carribbean grads, mainly because of fear for the perception they may bring to the program. We have none, and have had none that I'm aware of. We did interview a few, but they ended up at the bottom of the list, or not on it.

We're extremely DO friendly though, and even the top 25% of the rank list generally has DO's represented in proportion to the numbers in which they apply. I don't really detect any bias based on our rank meeting.
 
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AnatomyGrey12

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tons of gen surg, urology, ophthalmology, derm, anaesthesia...
tons? The last time I looked at a match list and saw tons of these specialties I was looking at the match list of UPenn... look at the number of matches to these specialties to the total of people matching. If someone matches neurosurgery at a great place but they are the only one out of 700+ matches then how is that a reasonable goal? None of the "big 3" match lists have "tons" of uro, derm, optho... maybe they have one or two (not unlike a DO match list) and they might have a n>1 in gen surg and anesthesia but look at how many prelim surg matches.. Don't see one wow match and think that is going to be you. Your chances at gen surg and anesthesia are much better at a DO program and I daresay you even have a better shot at a surgical sub coming from a DO program, and this is all just considering the 700 or so people who match from one of these "big 3." this isn't even taking into account the 40% who fail and never get to the match.
 

LutGholein

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Without actual percentages and hard data of the total # of students in that class that matriculated at SGU versus the total # of students that matched in that class...the list is meaningless.
 
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SLC

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...and this is all just considering the 700 or so people who match from one of these "big 3." this isn't even taking into account the 40% who fail and never get to the match.
Additionally, those lists don't specify how many of those matched are not on their first attempt with the match.

I don't have the data with me, but I'm fairly certain that even if you did survive to the match (which is already a long'ish shot); your chances in the match are something on the order of 50:50 at best. But if you somehow end up snagging a surgical prelim on your 5th year attempting to match, SGU is going to put your match up on their list without another word. They won't share the data on how many attempts each match may represent. Many schools don't even delineate prelim vs. Categorical matches.

I mean, if you want to see the horror up close and personal, just take a look in the SOAP thread down in the resident area of this forum. The overwhelming majority of folks in there are from off-shore schools. And the extremely overwhelming majority who don't succeed with the SOAP are from those schools as well. The few DO's and USMD's who are in there are generally picked up in the first round. By the second and third rounds it's a depressing blend of Carribean grads and FMG's.
 
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BeachBlondie

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I know people from SGU who do cards and GI now, but only after matching at mid/low tier med programs and having to work 5x as hard
I also know people from SGU/Ross/wherever that are 2 years out and still desperate to try and match ANYWHERE
 

LutGholein

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Caribbean refugee who dropped out after receiving a few secondaries and waitlist at DOs....It never came to fruition. He was convinced his GPA was the problem-- it wasn't. DOs and MDs don't want to take on carribean dropouts...so he lashed out at Goro--multiple times through multiple accounts. I gotta give it to him--he was persistent.
 

BeachBlondie

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Additionally, those lists don't specify how many of those matched are not on their first attempt with the match.

I don't have the data with me, but I'm fairly certain that even if you did survive to the match (which is already a long'ish shot); your chances in the match are something on the order of 50:50 at best.

I mean, just take a look in the SOAP thread down in the resident area of this forum. The overwhelming majority of folks in there are from off-shore schools. And the extremely overwhelming majority who don't succeed with the SOAP are from those schools as well. The few DO's and USMD's who are in there are generally picked up in the first round. By the second and third rounds it's a depressing blend of Carribean grads and FMG's.
I have a friend who recently finished anesthesia (yes, he's a DO) at--what was previously considered--an IMG-friendly institution in the South. This past year, he and his fellow residents had to BEG the PD to accept a single IMG. Her board scores were phenomenal and she was really well liked, but the Powers That Be have swiftly moved towards denying entry to those off-shore.

...and this is one of the places that typically embraced them with open arms.

 
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BeachBlondie

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Caribbean refugee who dropped out after receiving a few secondaries and waitlist at DOs....It never came to fruition. He was convinced his GPA was the problem-- it wasn't. DOs and MDs don't want to take on carribean dropouts...so he lashed out at Goro--multiple times through multiple accounts. I gotta give it to him--he was persistent.
It was 3 pages of, "This totally isn't the same guy that just got banned, but I use the exact same syntax and happen to have free time--right now--in my busy surgical practice." :laugh::laugh::rofl::rofl:
 

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You also have to remember that there are Canadian Caribbean students that do make it through the program who had 30+ MCAT scores who for some reason couldn't get into their home schools, or Stubborn USA students who go MD or bust with high mcat scores. those are the ones matching surgery and the like, not the students who couldn't get into a DO program.

I would much rather spend a year focusing every ounce of concentration I have to this horrible test, then to gamble 250k on a 60% chance of being a doctor. DO schools will try their best to keep u once they accept you.
 

Mad Jack

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I always thought that Caribbean students were lucky to match at all, and if they did it was pretty much only to primary care. Everything my advisor told me said that American DOs will pretty much always to better at finding residency, and get better residencies, than Caribbean students. But then I looked at the match lists for Caribbean schools like Ross and St. George and they have great matches! tons of gen surg, urology, ophthalmology, derm, anaesthesia... all the big 3 match lists were better than any DO school list. What's going on here?
Carib schools have massive class sizes, and thus match a few people to most specialties. When you're trying to match nearly 1,000 people, some are bound to get lucky. Many more than that, however, end up in primary care or unmatched. Sure, you may be one of the four guys that gets into ortho, but far more likely you'll be one of the 400 that had to repeat a year or more or never matched, or one of the 600+ that ended up in primary care.
 

MADD!!!

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tons? The last time I looked at a match list and saw tons of these specialties I was looking at the match list of UPenn... look at the number of matches to these specialties to the total of people matching. If someone matches neurosurgery at a great place but they are the only one out of 700+ matches then how is that a reasonable goal? None of the "big 3" match lists have "tons" of uro, derm, optho... maybe they have one or two (not unlike a DO match list) and they might have a n>1 in gen surg and anesthesia but look at how many prelim surg matches.. Don't see one wow match and think that is going to be you. Your chances at gen surg and anesthesia are much better at a DO program and I daresay you even have a better shot at a surgical sub coming from a DO program, and this is all just considering the 700 or so people who match from one of these "big 3." this isn't even taking into account the 40% who fail and never get to the match.
Take a look for yourself:

https://postgrad.sgu.edu/ResidencyAppointmentDirectory.aspx?year=2016
 

LutGholein

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So many matches at Icahn!!!! How friendly is Icahn to DO's?
I saw that too....my money says since SGU typically pays a lot for rotation spots in the NYC area--I even saw an article about it not too long ago(they've been giving Touro-Harlem the squeeze) that perhaps PDs have had an amicable experience with them in the New York area and that in turn MAY lead them to be more receptive to SGU or other IMGs poaching rotation sites by virtue of exposure to them
 
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MADD!!!

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I saw that too....my money says since SGU typically pays a lot for rotation spots in the NYC area--I even saw an article about it not too long ago(they've been given Touro-Harlem the squeeze) that perhaps PDs have had an amicable experience with them in the New York area and that in turn MAY lead them to be more receptive to SGU or other IMGs poaching rotation sites by virtue of exposure to them
Yea, I've also heard they have a strong presence in NY. I mean again it's a numbers game more than anything else. One thing people on SDN almost never talk about is how many non-US IMG's match every year. It's a very high amount. If we didn't have foreign citizens matching into U.S. residencies, we have enough residency slots to match almost every student from US MD, DO, and IMG students combined.
 

AnatomyGrey12

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Ok so lets break it down, there are:
1 neurosurgery
2 Ortho
0 Uro
0 Optho
24 categorical Gen surg (pre-lims don't count)
27 gas

That is 54 matches in these specialties. The OP said a "ton." Lets keep breaking it down. According to the SGU website there were ~830 matched in 2016. 54/830= 6.5% of the class went into these specialties that had a "ton" of matches.

Let's now look at the most recent match list of LMU-DCOM (usually talked about here as one of the "worst" DO schools)

http://www.lmunet.edu/uploads/_dcom/pdfs/2016-residency-placement-by-location.pdf.pdf

They had 21 matches into these specialties in a class of ~225. 21/225= 9.3% so even one of the "worst" DO schools has a higher percentage of their graduates going into these specialties. If we throw in the one ENT match then the percentage goes up to 9.7% The Carib offers no advantage as compared to going to a DO school, the data just isn't there. Throw in the 40% that fail out of the Carib and you have much lower chances of matching one of these specialties than at basically any DO program.
 

LutGholein

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Yea, I've also heard they have a strong presence in NY. I mean again it's a numbers game more than anything else. One thing people on SDN almost never talk about is how many non-US IMG's match every year. It's a very high amount. If we didn't have foreign citizens matching into U.S. residencies, we have enough residency slots to match almost every student from US MD, DO, and IMG students combined.
Very true, but unfortunately I think that's when the issue becomes far more politicized....so depending on your take where this country needs to head in-- it's a complicated discussion.
 

LutGholein

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Ok so lets break it down, there are:
1 neurosurgery
2 Ortho
0 Uro
0 Optho
24 categorical Gen surg (pre-lims don't count)
27 gas

That is 54 matches in these specialties. The OP said a "ton." Lets keep breaking it down. According to the SGU website there were ~830 matched in 2016. 54/830= 6.5% of the class went into these specialties that had a "ton" of matches.

Let's now look at the most recent match list of LMU-DCOM (usually talked about here as one of the "worst" DO schools)

http://www.lmunet.edu/uploads/_dcom/pdfs/2016-residency-placement-by-location.pdf.pdf

They had 21 matches into these specialties in a class of ~225. 21/225= 9.3% so even one of the "worst" DO schools has a higher percentage of their graduates going into these specialties. If we throw in the one ENT match then the percentage goes up to 9.7% The Carib offers no advantage as compared to going to a DO school, the data just isn't there. Throw in the 40% that fail out of the Carib and you have much lower chances of matching one of these specialties than at basically any DO program.
This. We need to copy and paste this for future reference.
 
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MADD!!!

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Ok so lets break it down, there are:
1 neurosurgery
2 Ortho
0 Uro
0 Optho
24 categorical Gen surg (pre-lims don't count)
27 gas

That is 54 matches in these specialties. The OP said a "ton." Lets keep breaking it down. According to the SGU website there were ~830 matched in 2016. 54/830= 6.5% of the class went into these specialties that had a "ton" of matches.

Let's now look at the most recent match list of LMU-DCOM (usually talked about here as one of the "worst" DO schools)

http://www.lmunet.edu/uploads/_dcom/pdfs/2016-residency-placement-by-location.pdf.pdf

They had 21 matches into these specialties in a class of ~225. 21/225= 9.3% so even one of the "worst" DO schools has a higher percentage of their graduates going into these specialties. If we throw in the one ENT match then the percentage goes up to 9.7% The Carib offers no advantage as compared to going to a DO school, the data just isn't there. Throw in the 40% that fail out of the Carib and you have much lower chances of matching one of these specialties than at basically any DO program.
How about all of those IM matches at top hospitals?!!! Most of which would give you a HUGE leg up for fellowships. If a DO matches into Icahn for IM, it's A BIG DEAL. And don't forget, these matches are all ACGME. DO's match into the AOA slots, which after the merger no one knows what's happening.
 

AnatomyGrey12

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How about all of those IM matches at top hospitals?!!!
What on earth are you talking about? As a pre-med I don't know much about residency programs but even I can tell you the vast majority of those are community matches at the types of programs DO's usually go to. How many of those Icahn matches are at the main teaching hospital? Most of those are at affiliates. Like how DO schools will put University of Chicago when it really is the Northshore program. You are being sucked into the trap, take a look at how they sprinkle the categorical matches with the prelim matches so unless you are specifically looking at that section of the match then you will just miss that a lot of those matches are pre-lims. Don't think that just because it's a "top hospital" that the residency program is good. DO's match at the Cleveland Clinic for IM, Meat Tornado has said that the Cleveland Clinic IM program is not a top program even though it carries a big name.
 
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Ho0v-man

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Yea, I've also heard they have a strong presence in NY. I mean again it's a numbers game more than anything else. One thing people on SDN almost never talk about is how many non-US IMG's match every year. It's a very high amount. If we didn't have foreign citizens matching into U.S. residencies, we have enough residency slots to match almost every student from US MD, DO, and IMG students combined.
Yeah, but FMGs are traditionally residency trained physicians. You telling me if you were a PD you wouldn't want a physician who's already trained that you know you probably wouldn't have to babysit at all?


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AnatomyGrey12

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Yeah, but FMGs are traditionally residency trained physicians. You telling me if you were a PD you wouldn't want a physician who's already trained that you know you probably wouldn't have to babysit at all?


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Not to mention that the guy (or lady) is most likely a genius that will be an asset to the American healthcare system. Usually the type of FMG's who make it to the US are head and shoulders above most IMG's, DO's, and low-tier MD students in the US.
 

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Additionally, those lists don't specify how many of those matched are not on their first attempt with the match.

I don't have the data with me, but I'm fairly certain that even if you did survive to the match (which is already a long'ish shot); your chances in the match are something on the order of 50:50 at best. But if you somehow end up snagging a surgical prelim on your 5th year attempting to match, SGU is going to put your match up on their list without another word. They won't share the data on how many attempts each match may represent. Many schools don't even delineate prelim vs. Categorical matches.

I mean, if you want to see the horror up close and personal, just take a look in the SOAP thread down in the resident area of this forum. The overwhelming majority of folks in there are from off-shore schools. And the extremely overwhelming majority who don't succeed with the SOAP are from those schools as well. The few DO's and USMD's who are in there are generally picked up in the first round. By the second and third rounds it's a depressing blend of Carribean grads and FMG's.
Didn't you have to SOAP?
 

MADD!!!

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What on earth are you talking about? As a pre-med I don't know much about residency programs but even I can tell you the vast majority of those are community matches at the types of programs DO's usually go to. How many of those Icahn matches are at the main teaching hospital? Most of those are at affiliates. Like how DO schools will put University of Chicago when it really is the Northshore program. You are being sucked into the trap, take a look at how they sprinkle the categorical matches with the prelim matches so unless you are specifically looking at that section of the match then you will just miss that a lot of those matches are pre-lims. Don't think that just because it's a "top hospital" that the residency program is good. DO's match at the Cleveland Clinic for IM, Meat Tornado has said that the Cleveland Clinic IM program is not a top program even though it carries a big name.
However you want to look at it... big picture: Carribean grad, residency in IM, big name hospital. period. We just jumped from being lucky to getting matched, to being nitpicky about it being a top residency program in the U.S. or not.

I'm not arguing people should go to Carribean (I didn't and will not apply), but the chances of matching aren't AS BLEAK as everyone here makes it sound.
 

AnatomyGrey12

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However you want to look at it... big picture: Carribean grad, residency in IM, big name hospital. period. We just jumped from being lucky to getting matched, to being nitpicky about it being a top residency program in the U.S. or not.

I'm not arguing people should go to Carribean (I didn't and will not apply), but the chances of matching aren't AS BLEAK as everyone here makes it sound.
No they aren't as bleak as we say if you are aiming for just any FM, IM, Peds residency. If you want something remotely competitive you have a better chance at a DO school and your chances as an IMG are just as bleak as we always say. This whole thread is about OP claiming how there were "tons of gen surg, urology, ophthalmology, derm, anaesthesia."

We did not make that jump, you said to look at all those "top IM matches" and all I did was point out that there were very few, if any. Remember, 40% of the class didn't even get to the point of being able to match to those community IM or FM spots. DO schools can get you to the same programs without worrying about 40% attrition.
 

SLC

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Didn't you have to SOAP?
Yeah, though I'm not sure what that has to do with anything I wrote. I snagged a really awesome spot immediately (as a DO), while the majority of the IMG's struggled and ultimately didn't get in to a program. My situation was kinda wonky too, and I definitely made some strategic mistakes in how I went about dealing with the match. Plenty of DO applicants with weaker apps than I had matched just fine.

On all my SOAP interviews the people were floored that I went unmatched; they just didn't get it. I had a ton of offers when the first round of SOAP ended. And I knew I would. I was devastated finding out I didn't match; but when I saw the list of places still available I was fine since I knew I'd get one of the good ones. My program now is way better than any of the ones I had on my rank list; so in a way, it worked out for the best!

But that's another story for another thread. If anyone wants to talk about what I did wrong and what id do different if I were starting 4th year right now I'm happy to do that in another thread.

My point is, IMG's can have good, solid apps and still have a 50:50 chance of not matching, and subsequently not finding anything in the SOAP. It's a total crapshoot. This is what I was highlighting with my post.

I literally know zero DO students who didn't up in GME after graduation (and I know a LOT of DO graduates). I have met plenty of folks from the Carribbean who didn't land a spot at all. Some even after multiple years trying. I flew home from an interview with one last year who was on his 3rd attempt at the match, I got the whole story all the way home and it was pretty bleak!
 
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MADD!!!

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No they aren't as bleak as we say if you are aiming for just any FM, IM, Peds residency. If you want something remotely competitive you have a better chance at a DO school and your chances as an IMG are just as bleak as we always say. This whole thread is about OP claiming how there were "tons of gen surg, urology, ophthalmology, derm, anaesthesia."

We did not make that jump, you said to look at all those "top IM matches" and all I did was point out that there were very few, if any. Remember, 40% of the class didn't even get to the point of being able to match to those community IM or FM spots. DO schools can get you to the same programs without worrying about 40% attrition.
Yeah, though I'm not sure what that has to do with anything I wrote. I snagged a really awesome spot immediately, while the majority of the IMG's struggled and ultimately didn't get in to a program. This is what I was highlighting with my post.

I literally know zero DO students who didn't up in GME after graduation (and I know a LOT of DO graduates). I have met plenty of folks from the Carribbean who didn't land a spot at all. Some even after multiple years trying. I flew home from an interview with one last year who was on his 3rd attempt at the match, I got the whole story all the way home and it was pretty bleak!
After reading SLC's post, it hit me again. Just being one of those people who doesn't match would be the most devastating experience ever.

But do you guys know if these Icahn residencies (affiliates and/or main campus) consider DO students for their IM spots as well? From what I recall, I haven't seen any DO students match into Icahn for any specialty.
 

24blue8

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Yeah, though I'm not sure what that has to do with anything I wrote.
Well you called not matching a "horror" that Caribbean graduates may face. However you too went through this. You also said your program does not interview or rank these offshore grads because it will make the program look bad, but your program didn't fill the year you matched. You state that Caribbean grads end up at the bottom of ranking lists and not matching-- this also happened to you.

Whether you are an anomaly or not (you're not, many people don't match), it does seem weird the way you're stating these things as if it is a tragedy that only strikes them down.
 
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SLC

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Well you called not matching a "horror" that Caribbean graduates may face. However you too went through this. You also said your program does not interview or rank these offshore grads because it will make the program look bad, but your program didn't fill the year you matched. You state that Caribbean grads end up at the bottom of ranking lists and not matching-- this also happened to you.

Whether you are an anomaly or not (you're not, many people don't match), it does seem weird the way you're stating these things as if it is a tragedy that only strikes them down.
See my update to my last post. I made some huge mistakes when applying, the largest of which (if you can call it a mistake) was a last minute change of specialty (as in late September, after the application window had already opened.) I had to cobble together a whole new app in less than 1 week, with new letters that I had to politely rush my writers to complete and submit, and an entirely different PS. I also only knew of a handful of programs I was truly familiar with and interested in applying to. I definitely handicapped myself from the start. But like I said, it worked out just fine in the end.

And you're right, my program didn't fill; but it was the first year that had ever happened. We filled again this year with multiple Ivy League grads, and high on our list. Anomaly, which I was happy to be the beneficiary of. My program truly is very high quality!

I had some bad strategy and bad luck, which worked out in the end just fine for me. A huge percentage (even a majority) of the folks who were IMG's were not so fortunate and finished the app season with nothing to show for all the hard work they had put in to get there.