Does anyone know students who have been accepted to St. George, or Ross Med Schools with taking some of their science prerequisites online and at a junior college?
Carribean Med School Prerequisites
- Thread starter WadeG
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If you're thinking about going to the Caribbean for medical school, I highly suggest you re-consider. A quick search of this forum will show you many, many reasons why this is a terrible idea. Any positive/success stories are usually rare and accomplished after an ungodly amount of hard work.
I will admit to being biased, but I honestly feel like these institutions should not exist, they take your money and give you false hope. If becoming a doctor is a strong desire for you, I would urge you to take a look at what you can do in an extra year or 2 to make your application better and apply to both US MD and DO schools. My two cents FWIW.
I will admit to being biased, but I honestly feel like these institutions should not exist, they take your money and give you false hope. If becoming a doctor is a strong desire for you, I would urge you to take a look at what you can do in an extra year or 2 to make your application better and apply to both US MD and DO schools. My two cents FWIW.
they dont care where you did them just as long as you passed
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Medicine is a study of population statistics. Yet, people still like to parade their anecdotes.
So...
On a population basis, at least with regards to the established and credible schools, your statement is wrong. The odds are that a matriculant will succeed at these schools, beyond a coin toss, and end up in primary care. That is meted out by decades of data.
Anecdotes? There are always horror and success stories... that ultimately prove nothing. In the end, statistics speak to the group, but individual stories seem to somehow provide more meaning to people. Why? I don’t know. But, they seem to.
As such, your statements don’t actually elucidate and inform to the experience of the majority who go this route. So, the next inclination is to talk about individual horror stories. How about a success story? Myself, I’m tracking to make $470k this year.
How does that factor into your warning? Am I the rare exception? I don’t think so. Just another story/anecdote/individual who succeeded going the Caribbean route in spite of admonitions from people like yourself. My post is as valid as yours, and the data are furthermore not on your side.
Everyone else? Do your own homework. And... Caveat emptor.
-Skip
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I was accepted at St. George, and know the island very well. You can take pre-requisites there, but...American students seem to find the organization of classes very hard to assimilate to. In addition, SGU is shifting to make a lot of their undergrad classes PBL (yuck)! Hopefully they don’t offer this for their online portion. What’s your end goal in all of this? Are you looking to matriculate to SGU Med? Or are you looking to take pre-med classes at SGU, and then apply to the US (I sincerely hope not)?
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I'm glad it worked out for you, but contrary to you touting your "470K" salary and your success story (defensive much?), there is more than ample amount of evidence not based on just SDN about the trap of Caribbean medical schools. I feel it is justified to let prospective candidates know the risks so they can themselves make an informed decision. It's difficult to get a true idea of the attrition rates and match rates because SGU and any other carib med school can try and spin the data in their favor to attract applicants, but anecdotally, residency match rates for a place like SGU are around 40-50% pre-SOAP and maybe up to ~60% afterwards, which is abysmal compared to US DO and MD schools which are generally somewhere in the mid to upper 90s and if you don't match, have fun getting out of that mountain of debt. Federal student aid also works differently, if at all, and the school's eligibility can be revoked at any time if they don't meet US standards.
In short, for the OP, and any others considering the Caribbean...do your own thorough research before deciding. This is not something to take lightly.
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At SGU (the "best" medical school in the Caribbean), only about two-third of entering students ultimately end up on the match list. If you don't believe me, go on SGU's website and compare entering class sizes (including both fall and winter admissions) with the lengths of their match lists. It's all there.
That's SGU, the Caribbean school that is known for having relatively high admission standards and relatively low attrition rates. At SGU, one-third of students get screwed over: no lousy medical degree, no primary care residency in rural West Virginia, no way to pay off their debt, no way to cover up the conspicuous gap in their resume. They end up with nothing, Skip. And here you are telling us about your $450K salary and how Caribbean medical school is worth it if one's odds are "beyond a coin toss."
Skip, I generally avoid this subforum, but I just want to tell you know that what you do here is borderline unethical. You tell people to "do their homework" when you know full well that Caribbean schools are known for their lack of transparency and their manipulation of data, and when you know full well that the data are very challenging to find in the first place. Let's be honest: many of the people who are interested in going to Caribbean medical school are impulsive, naïve, and lacking in critical thinking skills, so telling them to "do their homework" isn't doing them any favors. Tell them to boost their stats and try for DO, or to choose a different career altogether. Going to the Caribbean simply isn't worth it, especially since new schools are constantly opening up across the US.
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Why are you emotionally invested in the lives of complete strangers on the Internet? If I hadn't done my own homework way-back-when and instead listened to the naysayers, I wouldn't be where I am today. I would have either wasted more time trying to improve my application having been out of school for almost ten years, or I wouldn't have gone at all.
There are ample other threads on this forum that tell the statistics. I'm not responsible (nor will I take any responsibility) for:
- Shortcut artists
- Bull****ers
- Self-delusionists
So, me unethical? I think you need to point that finger at yourself. The Caribbean, insofar as the reputable schools, are a viable pathway. It is unethical of you to necessarily steer people away from that because a minority of students who eventually choose that pathway and actually attend a well-established school, and for a plethora of reasons, will not make it. Most of those who drop out, fail out, etc. do so before massive debt is accrued. Part of doing your own homework is self-reflection and soul-searching. Again, the data back me up.
But, it's easier to steer people away out of fear. When, if you look at my vast posting history, you will see a balanced position that is far more aligned with most of the other posters who suggest caution and exhaustion of the U.S. route first.
Unethical? Lighten up, Francis.
-Skip
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You are almost completely factually wrong in this post. Doing your own homework should involve avoiding and ignoring garbage, throw-away posts like this one.
-Skip
P.S. I might make more than $470K this year. Who knows? We have a new neurosurgical team at our hospital that is bringing a lot of new business here. I work hard for every penny I make. The stakes are high; so should be the reward. That's not being defensive. That's simply the truth. None of this would have happened if I'd listened to the naysayers and said "no" 17 years ago because I believed your type of ginned-up assertions and fear-mongering disguised as "trying to help".
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Which factual claims in that post are incorrect? Please be specific and offer evidence.
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I wasn't addressing you. And, I don't take orders from you either. For the record.
Also for the record, "Dr.Elliott" quoted the match rates for SGU. My position is that she completely made that up. Nonetheless, she made the assertion. She can back them up. If she wants to. It's not my job to go on a fools errand to prove (or disprove) her point. It's hers. That's how this works.
-Skip
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This is most certainly from "doing my own homework". I considered going to med school at SGU (interviewed and was accepted) after not receiving any US acceptances the first time I applied to medical school and was freaking out, naive and compulsive because of it. Luckily, after doing my own research, decided against it and am 110% glad I did not end up going to the Caribbean. We all work hard, no one said you didn't. In all honesty, based on your attitude alone I wouldn't listen to you no matter how potentially "right" you could be. You are clearly defensive, but hey, deny it all you want. I have nothing else to say because there's no sense in 
.
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Like i said, the information is anectodal which is not the best or most reliable, but it's what's out there given, and i'll quote Osminog "Caribbean schools are known for their lack of transparency and their manipulation of data". I do not feel the need to post sources that are quite easily found by doing a google search. My job is also not to prove you wrong. I have my opinions and thoughts and you clearly have yours.
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This is most certainly from "doing my own homework". I considered going to med school at SGU (interviewed and was accepted) after not receiving any US acceptances the first time I applied to medical school and was freaking out, naive and compulsive because of it. Luckily, after doing my own research, decided against it and am 110% glad I did not end up going to the Caribbean. We all work hard, no one said you didn't. In all honesty, based on your attitude alone I wouldn't listen to you no matter how potentially "right" you could be. You are clearly defensive, but hey, deny it all you want. I have nothing else to say because there's no sense in
You said this...
... which is 100% pulled out of your own... ahem... nether regions. And, completely missing my original point about anecdotes (which was why I posted what I did in the first place), you go on to again post your own anecdote.
I'm not even going to comment on your "defensive" comment other than Freud would classify this as one of the immature ego defense mechanisms known as "projection".
Bottom line: No one should listen to your advice. It's not instructive.
-Skip
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They can't manipulate the Match data.
Some real questions for EVERYBODY posting on the Caribbean forum...
Do your homework. It's all out there. And, has been posted and discussed on this forum for the past several years, Johnny-Come-Lately's.
Your posts contain made-up data you whipped out of your noggin' and based only on your belief, not reality. They are not instructive. They should be ignored.
-Skip
To our left: Some random person who has never been to a Carib school (and likely never to the Caribbean at all)
To our right: a middle aged man who graduated from Ross 10+ years ago
2 completely useless "sources" of info on the Caribbean having a pissing contest in an anonymous forum.
To our right: a middle aged man who graduated from Ross 10+ years ago
2 completely useless "sources" of info on the Caribbean having a pissing contest in an anonymous forum.
D
deleted888443
and you, a self proclaimed "caribpro" who added absolutely nothing to the conversationTo our left: Some random person who has never been to a Carib school (and likely never to the Caribbean at all)
To our right: a middle aged man who graduated from Ross 10+ years ago
2 completely useless "sources" of info on the Caribbean having a pissing contest in an anonymous forum.
Raney Schauer
The impossible flavor of your own completion.
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63% of statistics are made up on the spot.
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SGU total four-year MD student population:
For the sake of approximation: 5,536/4 = ~1400 four-year MD students per class
SGU total US residency placements by year:
Let's use the average... ~900. Let's also add on the ~10 people who match into spots outside of the USA:
910/1400 = 65% student success rate.
Note that this figure is almost certainly inflated because (1) the match # includes students in the >4-year program that SGU offers, who aren't included in the total enrollment number I used, and (2) the current enrollment figure I used doesn't include those who would be in MS2-4 but who dropped/flunked out; SGU doesn't publicize its attrition rate.
So if we're being overly generous, over one-third of the students who enroll the best Caribbean medical school don't end up entering a residency program.
Here's the reality, Skip: The outcomes at SGU are absolutely abysmal -- so abysmal that SGU would be shut down in a matter of days if it were running inside the United States. Given what you now know about SGU, you can start to imagine the sort of outcomes you'd find at the "lesser" Caribbean schools.
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Are we talking “attrition”? Or are we talking “Match rates”?
You and “Dr.Elliott” need to agree on your terminology and what you’re hyperventilating about first before we can continue. Because, you’re not talking about the same things.
If you’re talking about attrition, first off you are making a lot of assumptions about enrollment. But, yes, overall attrition rates are higher at the Caribbean schools. I challenge you to go back over my nearly 16 year posting history - including this very post - where I’ve ever said otherwise. Again, most drop outs/fail outs/quitters happen early in the program.
If you’re instead talking about Match rates, which are the students who have made it past Step I and are eligible through the school to enter the Match, you’re just wrong. Again, the Match data don’t lie.
You two need to get your arguments straight. You’re talking about different things.
-Skip
You and “Dr.Elliott” need to agree on your terminology and what you’re hyperventilating about first before we can continue. Because, you’re not talking about the same things.
If you’re talking about attrition, first off you are making a lot of assumptions about enrollment. But, yes, overall attrition rates are higher at the Caribbean schools. I challenge you to go back over my nearly 16 year posting history - including this very post - where I’ve ever said otherwise. Again, most drop outs/fail outs/quitters happen early in the program.
If you’re instead talking about Match rates, which are the students who have made it past Step I and are eligible through the school to enter the Match, you’re just wrong. Again, the Match data don’t lie.
You two need to get your arguments straight. You’re talking about different things.
-Skip
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I'm comparing the number of people who enroll at SGU to the number of people who ultimately end up matching. Call that whatever you want.
Just to be clear, @DrElliotReid and I aren't a tag-team duo. My post doesn't rely on anything that that user said. My post stands on its own terms.
I literally used the enrollment figure that's published on the SGU website. What assumptions am I making?
And yeah, the match rate is high. It's 93%... after SGU weeds out one-third of its students. You can't just accept the match rate statistic at face value without considering the fact that one-third of students never make it to the match in the first place. Imagine if SGU started to only allow students with 260+ Step scores to participate in the match and that they were only allowed to match into FM or pathology. The match rate would almost certainly be 100%, even though a majority of the class would be kept out of the match. Would having that 100% match rate make SGU a great school?
No, we don't. Again, my post stands on its own terms.
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Here’s another problem with your argument/assumption...
You assume that the enrollment is balanced across the four years. That is, that there is always “1400 students” in each class. This doesn’t account for (1) decels/repeats (2) differing class sizes based on rolling admissions, and (3) scheduling conflicts/delays that occur during the clinical years (which were especially problematic at Ross). We already know that a higher percentage of eventual graduates take longer to get their degrees at the Carib schools in comparison to U.S. students. We also know that enrollment numbers are not arbitrarily fixed by the AAMC and AOA like they are in the U.S., so enrollment will vary widely year-to-year based on a multitude of factors.
These arguments arw getting exhausting with people like you. These issues you raised are not new and have literally already been hashed out ad nauseum on this forum. I’m actually answering you now while I’m out running errands post call. When I get to an actual computer, I will redirect you. But, really, no amount of honesty and attempt at presenting facts are going to convince people like yourself that you only ultimately have your opinion underneath your attempted arguments and assumptions.
-Skip
You assume that the enrollment is balanced across the four years. That is, that there is always “1400 students” in each class. This doesn’t account for (1) decels/repeats (2) differing class sizes based on rolling admissions, and (3) scheduling conflicts/delays that occur during the clinical years (which were especially problematic at Ross). We already know that a higher percentage of eventual graduates take longer to get their degrees at the Carib schools in comparison to U.S. students. We also know that enrollment numbers are not arbitrarily fixed by the AAMC and AOA like they are in the U.S., so enrollment will vary widely year-to-year based on a multitude of factors.
These arguments arw getting exhausting with people like you. These issues you raised are not new and have literally already been hashed out ad nauseum on this forum. I’m actually answering you now while I’m out running errands post call. When I get to an actual computer, I will redirect you. But, really, no amount of honesty and attempt at presenting facts are going to convince people like yourself that you only ultimately have your opinion underneath your attempted arguments and assumptions.
-Skip
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Okay... I'm home. I'm so irritated with this, I don't even know where to start...
Just so we're clear:
- Dr.Elliott was either talking about the Match rate, or she is confusing her terms (or doesn't know what she's talking about and is just badly paraphrasing/playing grapevine/misunderstanding/misrepresenting something she probably read from another poster on this or the Pre-Med subforum).
- I'm not conflating your arguments; I was responding to her, then you jumped in and moved the goalposts/created a straw man and wanted to speak about something other than the Match
- You are specifically discussing attrition.
First, the bar at the reputable schools is very high for getting through the first two years and actually being allowed to sit for Step 1. Let's just, for the sake of argument, exclude discussion about the other medical schools in the Caribbean that are either complete scams, have almost no history of placing the majority of their grads into residency, or are so bad that the majority of students drop out, fail out, leave, etc. Let's focus just on the big schools who have literally placed thousands of doctors into practice in the U.S.
Okay, next assumption (which we have to make because, as you aptly point out, these schools aren't compelled to be forthcoming with these data) is that not all starting classes (Fall, Winter, Spring) in the rolling admissions will (1) graduate on-time in four years and (2) have an equal distribution and number of students. The Fall entering class is usually the biggest and, at the "big" schools, will have anywhere between 450-700 students. The Winter class is next. And, the Spring class usually has the fewest, on the order of maybe 200-250. The way it's stratified, there might be upwards of 2500 students in the various stages of MS1, MS2 on each individual island doing their pre-clinical work. And, even this may be an underestimation.
There are also a substantial number of students who will either decel or fail-out during this pre-clinical/MS1-MS2 time period. This is where the bulk of the attrition occurs.
Next, one of the biggest criticisms I had at Ross, and I'm sure some SGU students may echo this (although I've heard it's not as bad), is scheduling clinical rotations. Depending on when you started on the island, you could theoretically not make the Spring graduation date for a particular year and get lumped into next year's Match. This happens, as many will attest.
Lastly, there are no "set number" of students like there are in the U.S. At any school (AAMC at least), there are a prescribed number of students who will get an acceptance. Not so in the Caribbean. In fact, each year it is highly dependent on the number of students who overall apply to U.S. medical school. This is like the bulge moving through the demographic snake. Some years are going to have more students than others. And, they will necessarily be at different stages of their undergraduate medical training as a result. Trying to "average" that number is sophomoric. I would agree that we need more transparency from the Big Carib about how many fail, when, and why.
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Now, on a separate note, I find it exhausting when people, like yourself, come late to an argument and then arrogantly think they are offering a novel perspective or even believe they are instructing me. Many of us have literally been discussing these issues on this forum for years. In fact, you were probably in kindergarten when I first started bringing-up these issues on this forum.
And, the bigger irony is I agree with a lot of what you're saying. It's your arrogant and "winner take all" attitude that I mostly object to, as well as your unnecessarily flagrant and hyperbolic criticism of my position, which you've tried to encapsulate and over-interpret into some monstrous recklessness on my behalf, which only tells me that you have no real clue what my actual position is and are only interested in making some "drive by" point when you freely admit you don't even frequent this sub-forum that often.
Nonetheless, for your additional edification and perspective of the evolution of this, I invite you to click below and read:
My Thoughts on Ross University
Carribean is my only hope..... but do i have a chance?
Ross high failure rate?
Are SGU and Ross still interviewing for Fall semester spots?
Any chance at SGU?
Low GPA: chances into Carribbean Med School?
Get back to me when you're done.
-Skip
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If you were to (wrongfully) insinuate that 1/3 of students were allowed to make it to graduation and then not get into residency, you may have a point. Likewise, if the majority of students were racked with $300k+ of debt and nothing to show for it, you’d have a stronger position for your outrage.
This isn’t what routinely happens.
The majority of students who enroll will end up with a degree and in residency. The majority of those who don’t make it wash out early in the program, often well before they’ve amassed a lot of school debt. That’s the reality. As I said above, any potential student should know this going in. You can’t “fake” or “sweet talk” your way into a medical degree. The only fault of the school in that regard is giving the bull****ers a chance in the first place. It’s a hardcore weeding-out process that occurs after you get your spot. If you can’t do the work, don’t take the seat. In other words, don’t bull*** yourself.
And, I’ve been saying that for well over a decade.
-Skip
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The mean attrition rate at MD schools is <5%. The mean attrition rate at DO schools is around 10%. The attrition rate at SGU is >35%. In one of the posts you linked for me to read, you told the OP, "don't worry about attrition [at Ross]." People should worry, Skip. If you're one of the hundreds of people whom SGU goes out of its way to weed out, you'll never, ever become a physician. For people with mediocre academic qualifications, it's often better to do an SMP or a gap year and then go DO than to go straight to the Caribbean.
SGU doesn't publish its attrition data, nor does any other major Caribbean medical school. How do you know that most of those who flunked out were MS1's or MS2's? You don't cite any data to support this -- and you can't, because no such data actually exists. Are we supposed to take your word for it? Are we supposed to just depend on various anecdotes? What happened to your "ignore anecdotes/do your homework" routine?
Anyway, Skip, congratulations on graduating from a Caribbean medical school and becoming a wealthy anesthesiologist. That's great. We're all very happy for you. But please don't be the guy who jumps down the Niagara Falls in a barrel, miraculously survives, and then tells others that they can pull it off too. I'm not sure if you say the things you say out of ignorance or out of sheer maliciousness, but you're not doing anybody any favors. Your posts fuel the naivety and overconfidence of desperate, confused people.
Quite frankly, I think we agree on a lot of the facts. What I take serious issue with is your approach: you never ask people for their stats; you never recommend people delay a year and then apply DO; you never suggest the option of podiatry school; etc. In essence, you don't try to broaden people's horizons and show them their options. Also, you say things like, "If I can do it, most of you can" (see: "Ross high failure rate?" thread); honestly, that's just sickening.
Raney Schauer
The impossible flavor of your own completion.
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Why is it your expectation that he has to join that chorus line? Plenty of other people have that ground well covered. Yours is a "If you're not with us, you're against us" mentality, which is just as dangerous.
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^ This. Pure hyperbole. You're equating going this route to a game of Russian roulette. THAT is reckless, unfounded, and over-the-top.
Again, I ask, why do you want to be emotionally involved in the lives of complete strangers? Are you suggesting that people should not pursue their dreams? At their own peril? (How paternalistic!)
And, this...
Are SGU and Ross still interviewing for Fall semester spots?
The school has posted this information. If you make it past Step 1 and into clinical rotations, the odds of you failing out, to borrow your analogy, fall off the cliff. Again, don't confuse attrition with not matching. Totally different problems. If you are so skeptical that you are unwilling to accept that, then why believe anything? Question it all! Especially don't take my word (or the word of all the other students who actually went this route and saw it firsthand) for it.
You are not reading my posts very carefully.
First, the stats are irrelevant. When people come here posting "what are my chances" threads, I invariably re-direct them. Why? Because I have no clue what an admissions committee at a Carib school will say. To me, I simply don't care what their individual stats are. But, chances are that they will probably get accepted.
Secondly, I have said - repeatedly - that the Caribbean option should be someone's last resort. I don't know how many more times I can say this. But, what I'm not going to do is come here and **** on someone's dream. I am going to provide them the best unbiased information that I can. Most of you who criticize me are doing that from your own biased perspective and agenda. Furthermore, most of the critics are experts at talking the talk without ever having walked the walk. That's why you should instead listen to what posters like myself, the argus, bedevilled ben, and a few others who have actually been there and done it have to say about how to succeed. I've posted enough material on this forum over the years to have published probably two books on the subject. And, instead you and everyone else gets it for free!
Podiatry school? Do you know that I have to sign the H&P's of the outpatient podiatry patients when the come to the hospital for same-day surgery. Why? Because the podiatrists are not qualified or licensed to do an H&P. So, if you want to go to podiatry school and treat feet for the rest of your life, knock yourself out. I've met and worked with a lot of great podiatrists. Their scope of practice, though, is very limited.
Not much more to say, except for this...
Are SGU and Ross still interviewing for Fall semester spots?
-Skip
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I just want you guys to know that I envisioned Elliot Reed and Walter Sobchak, both dressed in business casual with white coats, having a heated debate on whether or not it's ethical to dissuade people from attending schools in the Caribbean.
They're sitting across from each other in the modest break room of a hospital. Elliot leans in as she makes each point, while Walter flails his hand around while holding a coffee cup. Elliot's actions are controlled, she appears to be deeply concerned. Walter is simultaneously having a bout of PTSD as he expertly defends his endorsement of Caribbean schools.
Also, every now and again an octopus plops itself onto the table. Without breaking eye contact, Elliot or Walter will reach over and nonchalantly swipe it off.
They're sitting across from each other in the modest break room of a hospital. Elliot leans in as she makes each point, while Walter flails his hand around while holding a coffee cup. Elliot's actions are controlled, she appears to be deeply concerned. Walter is simultaneously having a bout of PTSD as he expertly defends his endorsement of Caribbean schools.
Also, every now and again an octopus plops itself onto the table. Without breaking eye contact, Elliot or Walter will reach over and nonchalantly swipe it off.
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I have to disagree with this. I was a hard working student and applied to both MD and DO schools for two cycles. I did a post bacc and took the MCAT twice and still no luck. SGU has an amazing reputation in NY and where I was a scribe, half of the ER physicians were from SGU. I'm currently interviewing for residency and I was offered over 30 interviews. All of my other friends from SGU have at least 15 interviews from a multitude of specialties. If you put in the work you will be just fine. I also didn't have to put in an "ungodly amount of hard work." There are obviously people who aren't cut out for medical school and for those people it is unfortunate that they don't make it through but for those students who do what they're supposed to they should have no trouble getting a residency. If you'll only be happy doing derm or ortho then of course you are taking a bigger risk going to the Caribbean. You really have to know yourself and if you are fully confident in your academic ability then you will be fine. Program directors have specifically made the comment that they love SGU residents because we tend to work a little harder because we have always had a lot to lose. For prospective students don't be discouraged by everything you read. As everyone says there are people who don't make it through but these people also rarely reveal the red flags in their application.
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Anyone already drop in here to make the "Pre-requisites for Caribbean schools are a checkbook +/- a pulse" joke yet?
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- Reaction score
- 1,139
Honestly after everything’s said and done, if you’re not aiming for any of the ROAD UP specialties, and are confident in your test taking skills...I don’t see the problem with going Carib. Plus, IMG’s take a lot of the PCP spots, which is a relief. We need more of y’all, and I’m not willing to be a martyr for the cause
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