CC or Post-Bac?

[Jowo]

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Trying for Med-School but since i am a business major for undergrad i would need to get my preqs out of the way. Do you guys suggest a CC or a post-bac?
From my understand post-bac is more formulated towards med-school and a CC will require more self-motivation but cost a boat load of money less.
Do med schools look at the institution that you did your preqs at?
And what are the classes that I would need to take from a CC if I decide to go that route and save some money?


Thanks in advance

 

[EdLongshanks]

Trying for Med-School but since i am a business major for undergrad i would need to get my preqs out of the way. Do you guys suggest a CC or a post-bac?
From my understand post-bac is more formulated towards med-school and a CC will require more self-motivation but cost a boat load of money less.
Do med schools look at the institution that you did your preqs at?
And what are the classes that I would need to take from a CC if I decide to go that route and save some money?


Thanks in advance

Yes, medical admissions pay attention to which school that you got your pre-reqs in. This is not the most important criterion in admissions, but it is one of them. If you choose the easy and cheap road here, understand that your application has to be made correspondingly strong somewhere else.

 

[Jowo]

Any ideas on the weights that are placed on which school i choose? I am considering CC because of the money savings not because its easier.

And can you elaborate on which areas you were implying when you said "your application has to be made correspondingly strong somewhere else"?

 

[TriagePreMed]

My suggestion is that if you can afford a 4-year, go there. If you're applying as economically disadvantaged, they may cut you some more slack, but that's a route to take for students that can't afford the 4-year. An alternative would be to take some courses at the CC (like Bio and Gen Chem) and leave the big dogs (Physics and O.Chem) to the 4-year.

 

[EdLongshanks]

Any ideas on the weights that are placed on which school i choose? I am considering CC because of the money savings not because its easier.

And can you elaborate on which areas you were implying when you said "your application has to be made correspondingly strong somewhere else"?

Every medical school places different weights on these things. Some will not accept CC credits at all, some welcome them. Since you want to apply broadly, then assume that CC a significant detraction from your application.

Every application has strong and weak points. Let's say that one student has a GPA of 3.9 and MCAT of 34, but comes from a CC, another has a 31 MCAT and 3.5, but it's from a respected Ivy League. The CC will almost certainly cancel the higher GPA and might even detract from the MCAT a little.

You need to understand that a community college is a weakness in your application. Now if you have an incredible GPA and you know that you do really, really well on standardized tests - if you have been volunteering since 6 years old and working in a nursing home since high school - then your application might be able to withstand a weakness or two. But if you are only average in volunteer activities and have little or no clinical experience and you will have to struggle for a 30 on the MCAT, then another weakness might be an app killer.

I guess I'll put it plainer. Don't waste years of year life and tens of thousands of dollars trying to get into medical school that will eventually cost you a quarter of a million dollars - just to fail because you cheapskated on a couple thousand dollars in undergrad.

 

[Jowo]

the above poster makes a good point i will seriously consider a post-bac program.

 

[stefspets]

How exactly would going to a CC detract a good MCAT score?

I think this really depends on which schools you are applying to. My state school specifically said that because of the economy, blah blah blah, CC credits are an ok way to go to save money before medical school (but I'm sure this does not apply if you're in the middle of your undergrad at a 4-year). The DO schools I spoke to didn't care at all. But some MD schools will tell you outright that they look down on CC or don't take them at all.

Going 4-year is going to be safer. I went CC but I haven't applied yet so I don't know how it's going to play out. I'm mainly applying places where I got good feedback about the CC classes.

 

[TigerlilyDC]

This topic always intrigues me.

As a DC resident, I only qualify for out of state tuition to the 4-year public schools in the area or can pay the private schools rates for the schools that are close by (which are pretty much the same as the out of state public rates). Due to the cost factor and the fact that very few of these schools actually offer nighttime classes, I am doing ALL of my pre-recs at a CC.

Will this come back to bite me on the rear? I guess we'll see.

I do not think that taking CC classes will detract from your MCAT score. A standardized test is just that - standardized. If you do well in CC courses and do well on the MCAT, that I believe that will send a message that your CC courses did indeed prepare you well to acquire the necessary information that is needed. If you did well in your CC courses and don't do well on the MCAT, then that may be interpreted as possible grade inflation. I would argue that for any school, though...if you ace your pre-recs, theroretically you should be doing decently on the MCAT.


I think you have to do what's right for you. If you have access to a 4-year school and can pay in-state tuition, by all means go for it as it does seem to be the preferred route. The difference for me is about $20,000 which just doesn't seem worth it. I just ignore all the posts that make it seem like you won't get in if you do your classes at a CC, 'cause for me, they're just going to have to do. 🙂

 

[May143]

Currently, I am taking BIO and Chem at CC because it is 2-3 time cheaper than university here. After I finish these courses, I will take PHY and O Chem at the university.


I do no know about another one idea but for me I think CC is a good for study . I think the school cannot build and make your quality, but only student who have to study and practice for them self. You have to take time for you study as study at U. I do believe if you practice and practice enough for building your own knowledge, you will be rock on the MCAT that the medical school will use to check your quality.

Make sure what you want then move up and keep up.

 

[theseeker4]

How exactly would going to a CC detract a good MCAT score?

I think this really depends on which schools you are applying to. My state school specifically said that because of the economy, blah blah blah, CC credits are an ok way to go to save money before medical school (but I'm sure this does not apply if you're in the middle of your undergrad at a 4-year). The DO schools I spoke to didn't care at all. But some MD schools will tell you outright that they look down on CC or don't take them at all.

Going 4-year is going to be safer. I went CC but I haven't applied yet so I don't know how it's going to play out. I'm mainly applying places where I got good feedback about the CC classes.

That is a good question (bolded above). If anything, wouldn't the higher MCAT reinforce the higher GPA, since a lower MCAT would indicate the GPA was due to the ease of the school, not the student's abilities?

 

[Jowo]

after reading a few forums and talking to a few ppl I believe taking my preqs at a CC is out.

Therefore there are only 2 chooses left on the table and they are.

1) A post-bac program starting in August 2012 which is 1.5 years away lasting two years.

2) Go back to my Cal-State and get a second bachelor with some kind of science major and getting my preqs out that way. Which will take about 3 years as well.

Any comments on which might be better and what major i should pick if i do decide to go back for a second - bac?

 

[TriagePreMed]

The CC will almost certainly cancel the higher GPA and might even detract from the MCAT a little.

And yet another great post by Mr. Know-nothing. If anything, I respect the CC student with 39 than some privileged kid from Dartmouth with a 34 MCAT. We all know Ed is a republican, so in his mind rich > poor even if the poor had to go through more **** and accomplished more with limited resources.

 

[QofQuimica]

Folks, let's please keep this discussion civil.

OP, as others have said, different med schools evaluate CC credits differently. Some are fine with them, some will take them but prefer university credits, and some won't accept them at all. My med school is in the middle group--the adcom strongly discourages CC credits but will consider them on a case-by-case basis. If you have CC credits, you really need to check with each school about their policy before you apply. Also, if you're going to take classes at a CC, it's a good idea to take some upper level science classes at a university afterward. Finally, as others have also mentioned, a strong MCAT score is essential for those who come from a CC.

Ed, I wouldn't say that taking CC classes detracts from the MCAT score, but it definitely does make the MCAT score more important as a basis for evaluation. The issue is that CC classes are perceived as being less rigorous than four year school classes are, and therefore the MCAT is the main way that we are able to compare apples with apples. I had a similar issue coming from a college that didn't give grades, even though their admissions is highly selective.

 

[EdLongshanks]

Ed, I wouldn't say that taking CC classes detracts from the MCAT score, but it definitely does make the MCAT score more important as a basis for evaluation. The issue is that CC classes are perceived as being less rigorous than four year school classes are, and therefore the MCAT is the main way that we are able to compare apples with apples. I had a similar issue coming from a college that didn't give grades, even though their admissions is highly selective.

Let me explain what I meant, since some have focused on that single sentence. Let's compare 2 medium high MCAT scores (an extremely high score wasn't what I referred to, I specifically referred to a 34, not a 39). Say you have 1 student with a 3.9 in BioChemistry from Rice and another with a 3.9 from Podunk County Community College. Both score a 34 on the MCAT. Now the adcom knows that the Rice grad can handle rigorous classes, but is only an average standardized test taker. On the other hand, the adcom has less information about the CC student. He may have coasted through classes and be an incredibly good test taker (I use myself as an example here. I scored 33 and I haven't taken a class seriously yet) or he could have truly worked in the classes and the MCAT represents his knowledge, not his test-taking skills. So the CC classes means that the adcom doesn't know, for sure, what the MCAT represents.

Medical school needs students who are hard workers, not people who have learned how to coast. I'm concerned about myself here and I am doing something to change. I went to a fairly good CC and I know that I didn't get a good education. I just graduated with a 3.75 and there is no way that I earned it. My education does not even begin to compare with those who got this kind of GPA completely at a university.

There may be no adcom in the world who thinks like me, but I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't at least a few.

 

[PharMed2016]

Let me explain what I meant, since some have focused on that single sentence. Let's compare 2 medium high MCAT scores (an extremely high score wasn't what I referred to, I specifically referred to a 34, not a 39). Say you have 1 student with a 3.9 in BioChemistry from Rice and another with a 3.9 from Podunk County Community College. Both score a 34 on the MCAT. Now the adcom knows that the Rice grad can handle rigorous classes, but is only an average standardized test taker. On the other hand, the adcom has less information about the CC student. He may have coasted through classes and be an incredibly good test taker (I use myself as an example here. I scored 33 and I haven't taken a class seriously yet) or he could have truly worked in the classes and the MCAT represents his knowledge, not his test-taking skills. So the CC classes means that the adcom doesn't know, for sure, what the MCAT represents.

Medical school needs students who are hard workers, not people who have learned how to coast. I'm concerned about myself here and I am doing something to change. I went to a fairly good CC and I know that I didn't get a good education. I just graduated with a 3.75 and there is no way that I earned it. My education does not even begin to compare with those who got this kind of GPA completely at a university.

There may be no adcom in the world who thinks like me, but I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't at least a few.

I can definitely see your reasoning Ed but in the end there is no way to definitively say one school is better than another regardless of whether its a CC or a 4-year from the adcom's standpoint. It's for that reasoning in my opinion that adcoms weigh the course grades roughly similar.

I like to think that I went to a hard institution for undergrad comparatively but I was probably one of the least competitive at least on paper and I have been told that by adcoms when I went for pharmacy interviews compared to my fellow peers. They didn't care where I went but rather what was my GPA there. Granted it was for pharmacy interviews but I've also talked to members on the medical school admissions committee who pretty much said the same thing.

Let's me pose this scenario, let's say you and I was applying. Everything being roughly equal - MCAT, ECs, LORs, and Interview... I have a 3.35 from a 4-year institution and you have a 3.75 from a CC. Who would they choose?

You would be accepted even if there was a slightly lower MCAT score regardless of institution.

***Flip side, I do however think many times that 4-year institutions are harder than CC from my own experiences. If I was admission, I would follow your train of logic but unfortunately I am not. I'm just hoping that medical schools will see my performance in professional school as proof enough that I can survive medical school over someone who has a 3.9 from a CC compared to my 3.35. =/

 

[envirocopy512]

Poor Ed doesn't realize how much a joke 4-year institutions can be as well. I know people that went to top schools and didn't earn anything either. I recently took a course at Berkeley. I earned an "A" even though I barely did my work. Same course at a community college and I might have gotten a lower score. On hindsight, I should have whored the hell out of ratemyprofessor and forgotten to double major. I know kids with 3.8s that have it only because they selected every easy class on campus.

Agreed. One or two Ed posts and I need to stay off the forum for a few weeks.

 

[jsp132]

http://faculty.mc3.edu/charendz/Penn&Montco.htm

basically comparing university of pennsylvania versus the community college I attended

granted the year is outdated but I think it still hold water

why also do pharmaceutical schools accept cc credits if they're so bad apparantly?

at my calculus class, there were numerous people who were there thinking it would be easier then the 4 year university they were attending

i think there are some differences like more advanced technology and access to laboratories and more varying opportunities

but I think they're generally the same

 

[EdLongshanks]

http://faculty.mc3.edu/charendz/Penn&Montco.htm

basically comparing university of pennsylvania versus the community college I attended

granted the year is outdated but I think it still hold water

why also do pharmaceutical schools accept cc credits if they're so bad apparantly?

at my calculus class, there were numerous people who were there thinking it would be easier then the 4 year university they were attending

i think there are some differences like more advanced technology and access to laboratories and more varying opportunities

but I think they're generally the same

CC's may or may not be as good as 4-year universities, but the question is not whether the CC's are actually as good, but whether an applicant is as competitive with courses from a CC. I haven't seen anyone here say that an applicant is equally as competitive at all or most medical schools whether they have CC courses or only 4-university courses. Is that anyone's position?

 

[Eik Ooc]

I thought the MCAT was the great equalizer??? 😱

 

[felixthekat]

I have taken classes at both. To me, the classes at the 4yr were easier. They have a lot more resources built in. Classes at the CC were (for the most part) taught by professors who wanted to teach, and expected students to learn. They were available to help, but wanted to see effort on the student's part as well. At the 4-yr, it was all about peer tutoring. Professors were generally unavailable, and taught standardized material.

Clearly, this is just my experience, but I would rather pay $900/ semester tuition than $9000, and have better access to professors.

 

[stefspets]

The MCAT is the equalizer here. I get what Ed is saying, that if GPA and MCAT are equal, then the person with the 4-year grades is going to come out on top of the person with the CC grades. But that's not because the adcom subtracts a point from the MCAT score, it's because the classes were taken at the CC and there is a stigma.

We all want our applications to be as strong as possible because this process is such a crapshoot. If your application is weak in another area, then you probably can't afford to risk taking prereqs at the CC.

 

[EETTOMD]

The location where I reside right now (Holyoke, MA), I have not found a single 4 year college where I can fit classes in my schedule (that is, no option for evening classes). In a situation like this, should I not take any classes at all or take them at a CC? ( I need to take Ochem and Bio as I already have a BS and MS in Electrical Engineering).

Is there anyone here in this forum who has made it to med school by taking classes at a CC?

Thanks for your input. Much appreciated🙂

 

[Avon Barksdale]

The MCAT is the equalizer here. I get what Ed is saying, that if GPA and MCAT are equal, then the person with the 4-year grades is going to come out on top of the person with the CC grades.

Why? That just shows the kid at the 4 year didn't learn any more than the kid at the CC. Isn't that the whole point of the "equalizer" argument....?

 

[EdLongshanks]

Why? That just shows the kid at the 4 year didn't learn any more than the kid at the CC. Isn't that the whole point of the "equalizer" argument....?

Most of the members of this forum are not the decision makers here, but the applicants, therefore the "why" question is informational only. We can't change the facts, but we can advise those who are applicants to make their applications as strong as possible.

Edit:

If some of you are interested in changing how applications are considered for this medical school, then you might consider publishing a study that shows that MCAT's from CC attendees are as high as 4-year-only students. Without seeing the data, I would predict the 4-years to be far ahead, but that is opinion, not evidence. Until evidence is published that shows CC's to be equal in some way, I would expect med-schools to continue their general anti-cc bias.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Ok, so we all have our pluses and minuses... I grew up poor, but I've never felt Ed has treated me badly, or noticed that his posts are condescending to 'poor' people. He took all his pre-reqs at a CC, so if that were true wouldn't he have done everything to take them at a 4yr? Personally, I have found CC classes to be far FAR easier than at a 4yr. However, that doesn't mean all classes or instructors are created equal. I would say that some CC may have a decent staff capable of teaching at a 4yr level, HOWEVER, most only require a MS or not even, sometimes just master's courses. Almost EVERY 4yr requires a PhD to teach, at least in the sciences...

OP, you don't need a second degree to get your courses done, however, if you need the financial aid, you will have to apply as degree seeking, there is no requirement that you complete it 😉 Personally, if you have a decent GPA from your original bachelors, you could get by with CC credits... Your BEST plan is to call or email the admissions people at your say top 5 schools of choice and ask THEM whether they'll accept the credits... We aren't the final word...

 

[JohnDopamine]

I've been hearing so many different remarks on whether CC credits work or not... or whether they're weighed less than a 4 year institution.... or how some might work and others will not.

So here's what I did... I got feedback from 5 medical schools, almost in all cases directly from the director of admissions themselves, and here's what they had to say:

Community colleges classes are just fine, as long as you perform well in them.

The schools I got feedback from were UCI, Stanford, Drew Medical, Michigan State, and last but not least... my alma mater, UCLA.

I just wanted to clear that up, although obviously they don't speak for all medical schools. But a lot of members here try to somewhat instill some type of information in others that isn't completely true. So if CC is what you want to do, then go for it... because I know of someone who did all their coursework in CC and matriculated into the Geffen Med School in UCLA. Anything is possible.

Oh... and on another related note, most of these admission officials warned me about getting the wrong information from online sources... and one in particular, SDN. Lmao. 🙄

 

[Avon Barksdale]

Oh... and on another related note, most of these admission officials warned me about getting the wrong information from online sources... and one in particular, SDN. Lmao. 🙄

ha! 👍

 

[TriagePreMed]

Ok, so we all have our pluses and minuses... I grew up poor, but I've never felt Ed has treated me badly, or noticed that his posts are condescending to 'poor' people. He took all his pre-reqs at a CC, so if that were true wouldn't he have done everything to take them at a 4yr?

I don't actually believe that about Ed. I'm purposely poking at him. Sorry if it seemed like a genuine sentiment. I know Ed doesn't mean harm. However, I do find much of his advice questionable.

 

[EdLongshanks]

I've been hearing so many different remarks on whether CC credits work or not... or whether they're weighed less than a 4 year institution.... or how some might work and others will not.

So here's what I did... I got feedback from 5 medical schools, almost in all cases directly from the director of admissions themselves, and here's what they had to say:

Community colleges classes are just fine, as long as you perform well in them.

The schools I got feedback from were UCI, Stanford, Drew Medical, Michigan State, and last but not least... my alma mater, UCLA.

I just wanted to clear that up, although obviously they don't speak for all medical schools. But a lot of members here try to somewhat instill some type of information in others that isn't completely true. So if CC is what you want to do, then go for it... because I know of someone who did all their coursework in CC and matriculated into the Geffen Med School in UCLA. Anything is possible.

Oh... and on another related note, most of these admission officials warned me about getting the wrong information from online sources... and one in particular, SDN. Lmao. 🙄

While I was applying I spoke to the admissions directors of Duke and Yale and got the exact opposite answer. I also spoke to some schools ( I don't remember which ) who said that it did not matter. Therefore I concluded that it mattered some places and not others. Even within a single school, it matters to some adcoms and not others. It definitely mattered at Mayo, where I interviewed. My interviewer was the former dean of the local community college in Rochester, and she did NOT have a good view of my classes at the Tulsa CC.

So, my conclusion is this. Since most applicants are going to apply to many places, and since they do not actually know which places those are, until they are actually in the process of applying. It is better to be safe than sorry.

As far as getting information from SDN, without this website I would have made many more mistakes than I did. It is precisely because of this forum and the dedicated people who attempt to give good advice here that I am accepted today.

Yes, this is an open forum where anyone may comment, so there is both good and bad advice posted. This is not a source of authority, but it is a place of useful and honest debate with many knowledgeable participants.

 

[EETTOMD]

LOL hundreds, if not thousands, of folks have made it into to top schools including Stanford, UCSF, and Harvard with community college credits. Nobody is going to question your ability at science if you take your last 4 courses at a community college.

Thanks for the reply TriagePreMed. I graduated with a 3.7 cGPA (Electrical Engr.)and have A(s) in all science courses except gen chem II (well I haven't taken orgo and bio yet). From what I understand taking a class online is out of the question ( I personally wouldn't want to do that either). Hence, it is either a CC or 4- year, and I understand that the latter option is preferred. So should I take bio at a CC and orgo at a 4-year ( I would also like to take biochem and a class in genetics/anatomy or something similar). Finding a class at a 4-yr instituition in close proximity to fit my schedule is the main issue. My goal is to apply for Fall 2015 matriculation.
Thanks for your input. Much appreciated.🙂

 

[TriagePreMed]

Thanks for the reply TriagePreMed. I graduated with a 3.7 cGPA (Electrical Engr.)and have A(s) in all science courses except gen chem II (well I haven't taken orgo and bio yet). From what I understand taking a class online is out of the question ( I personally wouldn't want to do that either). Hence, it is either a CC or 4- year, and I understand that the latter option is preferred. So should I take bio at a CC and orgo at a 4-year ( I would also like to take biochem and a class in genetics/anatomy or something similar). Finding a class at a 4-yr instituition in close proximity to fit my schedule is the main issue. My goal is to apply for Fall 2015 matriculation.
Thanks for your input. Much appreciated.🙂

Personally, I don't think anyone would question your capability to do science with the backbone of Electrical Engineering. Remember, medical schools are not in the business of trying to keep people from going to med school. They are in the business of attracting applicants that as a unit go in accordance to school philosophy. Academically, you've already satisfied that aspect.

If you're taking biochem, genetics, etc., it may be easier to just take everything at the 4 year, but if you're thinking of cost containment, don't think people will question your CC prereqs, especially once you dominate the MCAT.