Chances at UCSF, BWH, MGH? (and related questions)

[footballnerd]

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[jdh71]

Hey Guys,
Really appreciate all the great advice here. Just had a question about my chances specifically at UCSF, MGH, BWH?

Stats:
Medical School: Highly ranked/regarded

USMLE: Step 1 -246, Step IICK, Not taken yet

Grades: First two years P/F, 3rd year grades, Honors (IM, Surgery, Peds, Neuro), High Pass (Ob, Fam Med), Pass (Psych)

Research: Probably my strength. 6 publications during med school in great journals (2 first author, 2 second author, 1 third author, 1 fourth author), 4 pubs in undergrad, not as directly "medicine related" (1 first author, 2 second author, 1 third author). In med school I've also had two podium presentations at big national/international meetings, two other abstracts for oral presentations that I co-authored (but did not present), and a handful of poster presentations.
Also have two first author pubs that are submitted to big journals.

Other stuff: MPH at great institution

Extracurric: TA'ed two classes at my med school, other random volunteer stuff, international health work.

Given what I've been reading here about these awesome candidates with great stats not getting interviews at these specific institutions, just wondering if anyone could provide insight/input on what my chances are at UCSF/MGH/BWH?

Other questions
1) Is it a big deal if I take my SubI early or not since I honored in medicine?
2) Step 2CK, should I put this off (even though I know UCSF wants it by Feb 15th) as much as possible
3) All of my med school research/pubs is stuff I did over 3 years that is with the same research team, but not IM or IM subspecialty related (except one). How much will this hurt my app?

Really would appreciate any input/advice. Thank you!

AOA at your school?

 

[footballnerd]

AOA at your school?

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[indiamacbean]

you'll do great. I bet you get into one of the top programs but perhaps you won't get to pick (though you may):
Other questions
1) Is it a big deal if I take my SubI early or not since I honored in medicine?
I would take it and honor it.
2) Step 2CK, should I put this off (even though I know UCSF wants it by Feb 15th) as much as possible
I would put this off since you got a good step 1 score. Im a UC resident and didn't take mine until late.
3) All of my med school research/pubs is stuff I did over 3 years that is with the same research team, but not IM or IM subspecialty related (except one). How much will this hurt my app?
probably not at all as long as you can explain what you want to do moving forward. hint: should be IM or IM subspecialty related.

good luck. don't stress it will work out for you.

 

[footballnerd]

you'll do great. I bet you get into one of the top programs but perhaps you won't get to pick (though you may):
Other questions
1) Is it a big deal if I take my SubI early or not since I honored in medicine?
I would take it and honor it.
2) Step 2CK, should I put this off (even though I know UCSF wants it by Feb 15th) as much as possible
I would put this off since you got a good step 1 score. Im a UC resident and didn't take mine until late.
3) All of my med school research/pubs is stuff I did over 3 years that is with the same research team, but not IM or IM subspecialty related (except one). How much will this hurt my app?
probably not at all as long as you can explain what you want to do moving forward. hint: should be IM or IM subspecialty related.

good luck. don't stress it will work out for you.

Thank you Indiamacbean. Appreciate the insight. Anymore input out there????

 

[HopkinsOslerDoc]

Great app! I agree with the other suggestions. Honor your subI and don't worry about taking Step II prior to submitting your app

 

[jdh71]

Thank you Indiamacbean. Appreciate the insight. Anymore input out there????

Sure.

AOA would have clinched the deal in my mind . . . in other words, if you would have had that I would have felt very comfortable telling you not to worry at all. With that said, I think your chances are good for interviews at any of the places your are interested in going. I imagine you'll get an interview at, at least one of those place and I would not be surprised at all if you got an interview at all three. The research shouldn't be an issue, just be ready to explain it if anyone asks. I had some research, non-IM (though related), on my application and it wasn't that much of an issue as long as you give the people who ask some context.

I have no strong feelings about the SubI. I think the honors in IM is enough, take the SubI whenever.

Good luck. I have no doubt you'll find an awesome match.

 

[footballnerd]

Sure.

AOA would have clinched the deal in my mind . . . in other words, if you would have had that I would have felt very comfortable telling you not to worry at all. With that said, I think your chances are good for interviews at any of the places your are interested in going. I imagine you'll get an interview at, at least one of those place and I would not be surprised at all if you got an interview at all three. The research shouldn't be an issue, just be ready to explain it if anyone asks. I had some research, non-IM (though related), on my application and it wasn't that much of an issue as long as you give the people who ask some context.

I have no strong feelings about the SubI. I think the honors in IM is enough, take the SubI whenever.

Good luck. I have no doubt you'll find an awesome match.

Thanks for the input JDH71. In regards to AOA, my school just doesn't have it (no ranking, p/f first two years). Is it looked down upon to not have AOA status even if your school does not have it?

Thank you!

 

[jdh71]

Thanks for the input JDH71. In regards to AOA, my school just doesn't have it (no ranking, p/f first two years). Is it looked down upon to not have AOA status even if your school does not have it?

Thank you!

It's not looked down upon per se, but it's just one of those mindless markers people can and do use when screening applications. Many time a unit/division secretary pick through apps WAY before a PD ever goes close to them with certain screening criteria, ie. only step 1 >230, Honors in Med, Something in the reseaech section, AOA etc. If you're coming from a well known med school I imagine PDs at the big name programs already know there is no AOA, so no biggie there, I was merely concerned about the initial screen by someone that may not know.

 

[dragonfly99]

I think you will do very well.
I agree with delaying the Step 2. It cannot help you, could only hurt you if you somehow screw up, which is unlikely in your case. Just don't be arrogant during your interview and you should be O.K.

 

[piptaz]

Responsible answers to the questions you posed depend in part on further facts about the history and current events within your own medical school - you offered us abstract strength measures but much more turns on concrete facts regarding 1) how well your school has placed residents into internal medicine at the programs in which you are interested and 2) how you rank internally with other people in your class who are also applying to IM at these programs. AOA helps schools sort out internal ranking among a cohort to some degree and in lieu of AOA testifying to the fact that your distribution of clinical grades actually places you in the top tier of your own medical school they will also look at the deans letter which will use magic language like "recommend" "highly recommned" "most highly recommend" which is tightly regulated code for placement within your class. This will help them make sense out of whether missing honors in multiple clerkships at your medical school, as you did, is compatible with excellence. Moreover, if there is a good history of these programs taking MULTIPLE people per year from your school as opposed to taking one person as a breakthrough every so often will give you an idea of how much slack you have for any given level of relative performance within your medical school. The plans of other people in your class also matter in as much as if there are others in your class who are also applying to these programs and have hit honors in all/more clerkships and there is not a tradition of sending multiple people from your school to these programs then you do not have much slack. There are a limited number of programs from which these programs are likely to consider taking multiple people and for other programs they are likely to rank highly only a single student. If you feel that there is plenty of slack for you based on these considerations then you can error more on putting off stuff like sub-i and step 2 (I would say that the step 1 doesn't exclude you at all (which is a big achievement) but it is not itself a help) but if you feel on these considerations that you have less/no slack then you should error on the side of cranking out a higher step 2 and honoring a sub-i in a timely fashion so they can still be considered. Good luck.

 

[jdh71]

Responsible answers to the questions you posed depend in part on further facts about the history and current events within your own medical school - you offered us abstract strength measures but much more turns on concrete facts regarding 1) how well your school has placed residents into internal medicine at the programs in which you are interested and 2) how you rank internally with other people in your class who are also applying to IM at these programs. AOA helps schools sort out internal ranking among a cohort to some degree and in lieu of AOA testifying to the fact that your distribution of clinical grades actually places you in the top tier of your own medical school they will also look at the deans letter which will use magic language like "recommend" "highly recommned" "most highly recommend" which is tightly regulated code for placement within your class. This will help them make sense out of whether missing honors in multiple clerkships at your medical school, as you did, is compatible with excellence. Moreover, if there is a good history of these programs taking MULTIPLE people per year from your school as opposed to taking one person as a breakthrough every so often will give you an idea of how much slack you have for any given level of relative performance within your medical school. The plans of other people in your class also matter in as much as if there are others in your class who are also applying to these programs and have hit honors in all/more clerkships and there is not a tradition of sending multiple people from your school to these programs then you do not have much slack. There are a limited number of programs from which these programs are likely to consider taking multiple people and for other programs they are likely to rank highly only a single student. If you feel that there is plenty of slack for you based on these considerations then you can error more on putting off stuff like sub-i and step 2 (I would say that the step 1 doesn't exclude you at all (which is a big achievement) but it is not itself a help) but if you feel on these considerations that you have less/no slack then you should error on the side of cranking out a higher step 2 and honoring a sub-i in a timely fashion so they can still be considered. Good luck.

You're making this too complicated

 

[footballnerd]

You're making this too complicated

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[piptaz]

I'd say your are more on the "having slack" side and could consider holding off on Step 2

The history of taking multiple residents in a year from a given medical school is a strong sign of how an in-demand residency program regards/respects a given medical school in as much as a high degree of respect for that school (and correlative tolerance/slack for less than top-of-the-class applicants) is all but a neccesary precondition for highly ranking and ultimately taking multiple folks from a given medical school in a given year. One can thus more or less reliably infer the former from the later (not perfectly - we are talking heurisitcs here, my friend! Also, this heurisitc has high (not perfect) PPV but not high NPV as there are many reasons other than lack of respect why there might not be a history of multiple folks going in a single year). Its also obviously a matter of degrees and not a binary of high respect/low respect - some schools will consistently place multiple people in a given year, others only rarely, and still others never. Its also only one consideration among others - don't rely on this or other single consideration alone in making the call.

The importance of whether and how you measure up to other classmates who are also applying to these IM programs is a function of that first consideration. The easiest and most reliable comparison that residencies have to make is between you and others from your school - nearly eveything is fully comensuarble and you may even have letters from some of the same faculty. Some programs take it a bit further to directly compare you to your classmates - the MGH group hug/interview is set so that everyone from the same school will interview with the same group to streamline and sharpen that comparison. If you fair poorly in head to head comparison with your own classmates - the most reliable cohart the program has to compare you against - and the program has mid-marginal respect for your program, that will drop you.

 

[EaglesPA]

Thanks so much for all the great feedback. It's really helpful to get some perspective on where I stand so I can figure out how many places to apply too, how many backups to apply too etc...

Piptaz, to answer your questions.
Our med schools class size is smaller than most places. It's really hard to compare myself to everyone given the fact the fact that I feel that the majority of our class is excellent and does more than the "average med student" all around.

As far as rotation grades, it's pretty hard to honor at our school. For example, people in last years class indicated to us that on their deans letters it indicated that only 8% of the graduating class honor peds, and 12% ob/gyn, 15-20% internal medicine. According to one of our deans, only one person in the last four years honored all their rotations. I worked my butt off on internal med, was told that I was functioning at the level of an intern multiple times, and aced that shelf and STILL didn't feel like I was anywhere close to locking an honors until I got my grade (lotsa horror stories about similar performances resulting in HP). My SubI does not start till September so I guess I'll have to send an application update for that.

Overall, "high passing" all your rotations is considered "average" for our med school.
People that have applied to IM in the last couple years have gotten into places like Brigham, Mass Gen, JHU, Columbia, Mayo, Stanford, Cornell, U Mich etc.... Majority going to high ranking programs vs. not.

Thanks again everyone for the insight!

OP,
I think you fretting unnecessarily. It is highly likely that you will get interviews at MGH, BWH, UCSF and JHU based on your step 1, research + pubs, honors in medicine and the track record of your med school.

I agree with others about waiting to take step 2. Taking and honoring Medicine subI is probably not essential in your case.

I was sure I knew which med school you went to (except that the one I was thinking of has AOA)

 

[Dirt]

I have a question that is somewhat related to this thread.

First some stats:
MS3
Step 1-265
Honored every class first two years
Not AOA yet but would be shocked if I wasn't
Some good community stuff

No research in med school, one medical poster before school and a couple of humanities pubs.

Mid-low tier mid-atlantic school.

I am not totally sold on medicine yet but I definitely want to limit myself to the following geographic locations:
New York (not including NYC)
Mass
Vermont
NH
Maine
Connecticut
Rhode Island

Would it be worth my while to do an away at like MGH or B&W to either improve my chances at that institution or at least get a letter from a big place in the geographical location I am looking to move into?

 

[jdh71]

I have a question that is somewhat related to this thread.

First some stats:
MS3
Step 1-265
Honored every class first two years
Not AOA yet but would be shocked if I wasn't
Some good community stuff

No research in med school, one medical poster before school and a couple of humanities pubs.

Mid-low tier mid-atlantic school.

I am not totally sold on medicine yet but I definitely want to limit myself to the following geographic locations:
New York (not including NYC)
Mass
Vermont
NH
Maine
Connecticut
Rhode Island

Would it be worth my while to do an away at like MGH or B&W to either improve my chances at that institution or at least get a letter from a big place in the geographical location I am looking to move into?

The letter could help. But don't do an away Sub-I do a subspecialty rotation.

 

[truth617]

Hey Guys,
Really appreciate all the great advice here. Just had a question about my chances specifically at UCSF, MGH, BWH?

You'll totally get interviews with that CV. Don't worry about it. If your med school is truly top, then you won't even need to worry about some geographic bias when it comes time for rank lists.

 

[mystma0621]

Hey guys, Don't mean to hijack the thread, but was wondering what you guys think (though I think I know) about my chances for some of the following "dream" programs of mine:
MGH, BWH, BIDMC, NYP-Cornell, NYP-Columbia, NYU, MSSM

Currently a 3rd year at a mid-tier (top-50 MD) school (on the West Coast)
Average to slightly abv average at my school
Step 1: 230/99

Have a top-5 undergrad pedigree, varied extracurricular background, pretty significant research background, but in med school, just the summer btw 1st and 2nd yr at one of the abv hospitals, mid-author on an abstract.

any chances whatsoever at any of those programs? thx!

 

[chitown82]

Hey guys, Don't mean to hijack the thread, but was wondering what you guys think (though I think I know) about my chances for some of the following "dream" programs of mine:
MGH, BWH, BIDMC, NYP-Cornell, NYP-Columbia, NYU, MSSM

Currently a 3rd year at a mid-tier (top-50 MD) school (on the West Coast)
Average to slightly abv average at my school
Step 1: 230/99

Have a top-5 undergrad pedigree, varied extracurricular background, pretty significant research background, but in med school, just the summer btw 1st and 2nd yr at one of the abv hospitals, mid-author on an abstract.

any chances whatsoever at any of those programs? thx!

Obviously apply to all programs you are interested in - the application process can be unpredictable at times.

You have a few things working against you - Step 1 score is probably below average for most of the programs you listed. I'd take Step 2 early and aim for a super high score and have it released on ERAS. Your class ranking won't help you either -again not too late to improve on it during third year and get into the top quartile in your class. Great you did research in undergrad but nothing significant in med school isn't ideal. Try to get involved in some projects this year and maybe get a few abstracts/posters or better yet publications. Get great LORs and this may help.

Most of the programs you mentioned are very competitive. You probably won't have a shot at MGH, BWH, or Columbia. Might have chance at BIDMC, Cornell, Mt. Sinai if you are able to improve your app between now and 4th year. Should get an invite from NYU. If you do an away at one of these programs and blow them away, you will help your chances although there is no guarantee.

If you have an "x-factor" or a "pull," use it.

Good luck and remember there are many excellent programs you will be competitive for...don't ignore them!

 

[RonBurgandy]

Hey guys, Don't mean to hijack the thread, but was wondering what you guys think (though I think I know) about my chances for some of the following "dream" programs of mine:
MGH, BWH, BIDMC, NYP-Cornell, NYP-Columbia, NYU, MSSM

Currently a 3rd year at a mid-tier (top-50 MD) school (on the West Coast)
Average to slightly abv average at my school
Step 1: 230/99

Have a top-5 undergrad pedigree, varied extracurricular background, pretty significant research background, but in med school, just the summer btw 1st and 2nd yr at one of the abv hospitals, mid-author on an abstract.

any chances whatsoever at any of those programs? thx!

Hi, here's my $.02.

First, talk to your home program's PD and get his opinion, he or she will have the best insight into the application process for you.

That said, here are my thoughts having gone through the process last year.

First, apply to all the programs you're interested in, but I think MGH, BW, and Columbia will all be reaches. They seem to interview only top quartile applicants from mid tier med schools, though I think honoring your medicine clerkship will mean a great deal. I'll point out that several AOA from my med school (but who high passed medicine) did not get interviews at these places, and they all had scores in the 250s for step 1.

Depending on your school's relationship with Cornell, MSSM, and BID you may have an easier shot at one of those, but again they are very popular and can be tough to match to as well.

I'd guess you have a good shot at NYU.

I think your research may be a wild card in the process, but it's tough to rely on. My med school PD once told me that research is often a secondary factor and used to separate two candidates who are similar clinically.

Given your location preferences, I'd also add Yale to your list, as its an easy train ride to the City and a short car ride to Boston.

I hope that's helpful.

Good luck!

 

[Jimmer Fredette]

I am wondering the same question as the above posters...

Step1: 256
1st-2nd year: Mostly honors
3rd year: honors (medicine, surgery, psychiatry) in 3/6
AOA: not junior AOA but I might be senior AOA, we will see
Med school: hm, probably upper-mid tier at best
Research: 1 publication in anesthesia (4th author), 1 textbook publication (2nd author)- the textbook isn't all that great and only used at our institution. I am working on another project, this time in medicine
Other: I lived in Boston for 2 years, but I am at a school in a totally different region. My home medicine program is average, they have matched people at MGH in the past but it is not a yearly occurance.

Questions:
1. Do I have a great shot? If not, how can I improve?
2. Should I play up my time living in Boston? (I am not as interested in UCSF although its an awesome program, I realize).
3. I am not planning on doing an away rotation, I will probably go abroad instead. Is this going to hurt me?

 

[Deferoxamine]

I am wondering the same question as the above posters...

Step1: 256
1st-2nd year: Mostly honors
3rd year: honors (medicine, surgery, psychiatry) in 3/6
AOA: not junior AOA but I might be senior AOA, we will see
Med school: hm, probably upper-mid tier at best
Research: 1 publication in anesthesia (4th author), 1 textbook publication (2nd author)- the textbook isn't all that great and only used at our institution. I am working on another project, this time in medicine
Other: I lived in Boston for 2 years, but I am at a school in a totally different region. My home medicine program is average, they have matched people at MGH in the past but it is not a yearly occurance.

Questions:
1. Do I have a great shot? If not, how can I improve?
2. Should I play up my time living in Boston? (I am not as interested in UCSF although its an awesome program, I realize).
3. I am not planning on doing an away rotation, I will probably go abroad instead. Is this going to hurt me?

You're in a good spot, I think. You should aim high.

I landed interviews at MGH, BWH, and Hopkins (didn't apply to UCSF), and I barely broke 240 on Step 1. Your H in Medicine (and arguably Surgery) helps you. Your Step 1 is killer and is a nice buffer for any H's you missed out on in third year. You have more to show for your research than I did. I don't see any "X-factor" in your post - you may have one - do you? X-factors are HUGE. There are too many applicants these days who fulfill the minimum criteria they are willing to accept into their program, so they have to look at other things. I had no clue going in that my activities from 5+ years ago that seemed mundane to me actually may have got me those reach interviews - I am drawing this conclusion based on what my interviewers told me at almost all of my interviews.

Bottom line: Your stats are great. Secure good LOR's. If you have a potential X-factor, touch on it in your Personal Statement.

 

[mrjohndaniels]

I am wondering the same question as the above posters...

Step1: 256
1st-2nd year: Mostly honors
3rd year: honors (medicine, surgery, psychiatry) in 3/6
AOA: not junior AOA but I might be senior AOA, we will see
Med school: hm, probably upper-mid tier at best
Research: 1 publication in anesthesia (4th author), 1 textbook publication (2nd author)- the textbook isn't all that great and only used at our institution. I am working on another project, this time in medicine
Other: I lived in Boston for 2 years, but I am at a school in a totally different region. My home medicine program is average, they have matched people at MGH in the past but it is not a yearly occurance.

Questions:
1. Do I have a great shot? If not, how can I improve?
2. Should I play up my time living in Boston? (I am not as interested in UCSF although its an awesome program, I realize).
3. I am not planning on doing an away rotation, I will probably go abroad instead. Is this going to hurt me?

I agree with Deferoxamine. You should get interviews at these places and your chances to match are excellent. Just keep doing what you're doing. Don't apologize for where you come from (you've obviously learned a lot there), and you can definitely talk about Boston in interviews as a place you like and want to be. Don't worry about how you plan to spend your elective time.

Nothing is guaranteed, so depending on how the applicant pool is next year things could change. This year was a more competitive year than most, but even so your stats probably would have put you in a good position for interviews and possibly a match. Good luck!

 

[Dreemer005]

Has IM gotten much more competitive over the recent years? I think the majority of posters here blow my app away when I was applying (6-7 years ago). Just glancing at the stats, I don't think anyone on these boards have to worry.

I landed interviews at mgh, ucsf, etc. My stats at the time:

Step1: mid-230's
1st-2nd year: p/f
3rd year: honors in several rotations (but not IM)
AOA: not AOA
Med school: Highly regarded (one of the IM's mentioned among posts)
Research: Multiple abstracts, 4 pubs

I did have a mid-level faculty member making phone calls for me, not sure how much of an impact it had.

 

[jdh71]

Has IM gotten much more competitive over the recent years? I think the majority of posters here blow my app away when I was applying (6-7 years ago). Just glancing at the stats, I don't think anyone on these boards have to worry.

I landed interviews at mgh, ucsf, etc. My stats at the time:

Step1: mid-230's
1st-2nd year: p/f
3rd year: honors in several rotations (but not IM)
AOA: not AOA
Med school: Highly regarded (one of the IM's mentioned among posts)
Research: Multiple abstracts, 4 pubs

I did have a mid-level faculty member making phone calls for me, not sure how much of an impact it had.

Yup, getting more competitive. Hell, I'm not even sure I'd get into medical school anymore!

 

[Jimmer Fredette]

Yup, getting more competitive. Hell, I'm not even sure I'd get into medical school anymore!

Thanks to you all for your comments. I think part of the reason IM looks more competitive now could be due to grade inflation. The average step 1 score has been creeping up year after year for one reason or another but I don't think its because students are smarter or more competitive. I am not sure about research but at least at my institution it has become easier in recent years to get student research projects (I can't speak for other places).

 

[DrVanNostran]

My dream locations are either U of C or Northwestern. I'm originally from Chicago, but go to school in another midwestern state. Is AOA a must for both these schools?

Someone create a What Are My chances Thread? I love those!

 

[lockness21]

.

 

[jdh71]

My dream locations are either U of C or Northwestern. I'm originally from Chicago, but go to school in another midwestern state. Is AOA a must for both these schools?

Someone create a What Are My chances Thread? I love those!

U of Chicago is pretty selective, and AOA is probably more of a "must" there than NWern, but I think with an otherwise great application with a real Chicago connection will be more important at BOTH residency programs.

 

[Deferoxamine]

The point of the rant is that getting an interview is very different than having a realistic chance of matching at these top places.
...

I wish you all the best of luck, but don't go overboard thinking that getting an interview means you're a sure shot.

All of this is true.

For next year's applicants: By the latter end of the interview season, you should have a pretty good idea of whether or not you are a fit for the Big 4. By "a fit", I don't mean just stats or "are you tough enough", but rather whether or not you are the type of "person" they are looking for. At some programs, I wholeheartedly disagreed with the overall "message" or "theme" of the interview day and the program itself, and I'm sure it probably showed in some way at my visit (feigned enthusiasm, uncomfortable, unable to "be myself", lack of legit questions, etc.). I think knowing yourself is probably 50% of the battle here.

Just as an anecdote: I do know of someone who matched at the Big 4, to their surprise. They did not rank this program #1. In fact, they fell more than 1 spot (not matching at programs outside of the "top 10" that they ranked higher). So what they say is true... you just never know what your odds are at some of these places. So when the time comes, do what they tell you -- rank them in the order you like them.

 

[jdh71]

So when the time comes, do what they tell you -- rank them in the order you like them.

Yup. You can't game the system. It's slanted in the applicants favor, so rank how you like them and want to go.