Chances of matching as DO in acgme psych

[markb2]

I'm a current third year DO student who is considering a career in psychiatry. I took step 1 with a score in the 220s and comlex on 540s. Do I have a reasonable chance of matching into an acgme program or should I stick with osteopathic programs?

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[chicagochildpsych]

I think if you apply to programs that have taken DOs in the past and do away rotations and gather letters from faculty in acgme programs (and try to do a little better on step 2) you should be fine.


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[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I think if you apply to programs that have taken DOs in the past and do away rotations and gather letters from faculty in acgme programs (and try to do a little better on step 2) you should be fine.


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Has Psych really gotten that competitive? I was under the impression that the average applicant who gets in has a 220...

 

[chicagochildpsych]

Not really, but saying do better on step 2 is wamc tradition on sdn


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[Ψ-117]

I'm a DO, and I didn't see the need to take USMLE, so I didn't. Now, not taking it might have prevented me from getting interviews at some of the big name programs I applied to, but I don't really know. Anyway, my COMLEX 1 score was in the 540s as well, and I was invited to interview at about 20 ACGME programs (and I applied to 25-30). I don't think you'll be hurting.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

MD is better than DO, 230 is better than 220, USMLE is better than COMLEX, and yes, you can get in as a DO with only COMLEX. It is only a matter of where and how picky you need to be.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

MD is better than DO, 230 is better than 220, USMLE is better than COMLEX, and yes, you can get in as a DO with only COMLEX. It is only a matter of where and how picky you need to be.

I'm not going to say this is what I intend on getting next year on the boards. But for the sake of easing my worries about failing to match psych, how realistic is to for a middle of the class DO student with lets say a 480-500 COMLEX score or 210 USMLE to match somewhere relatively midrange ( Basically just decided to choose scores on the lowish end of the average deviation)?

I mean what I'm trying to say is whether or not the mood about psych getting competitive is really real or just hype and that still relatively open to almost any graduate?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I'm a DO, and I didn't see the need to take USMLE, so I didn't. Now, not taking it might have prevented me from getting interviews at some of the big name programs I applied to, but I don't really know. Anyway, my COMLEX 1 score was in the 540s as well, and I was invited to interview at about 20 ACGME programs (and I applied to 25-30). I don't think you'll be hurting.

What was your experience in applying to Psych programs as DO? Anything that a DO student interested in psych should do to up their chances? Did you feel like you needed to be a relatively competitive applicant to get in?

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

NRMP data from this year's match shows Step I was 211 in the 25%, 218 in the 50%, and 226 in the 75%. Step II was 211 in 25%, 230 in the 50%, and 237 in the 75%. If you assume MDs are favored in this process, average DO scores could be somewhat higher. An average DO USMLE score would probably be step I 230 and II, 233 among those who matched. I'm guessing, but guessing with the above data. Psych is still fairly wide open. It may have moved towards being more competitive, but it still remains among the least competitive specialties.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

NRMP data from this year's match shows Step I was 211 in the 25%, 218 in the 50%, and 226 in the 75%. Step II was 211 in 25%, 230 in the 50%, and 237 in the 75%. If you assume MDs are favored in this process, average DO scores could be somewhat higher. An average DO USMLE score would probably be step I 230 and II, 233 among those who matched. I'm guessing, but guessing with the above data. Psych is still fairly wide open. It may have moved towards being more competitive, but it still remains among the least competitive specialties.

Yes, but what percent of applicants with a 211 got accepted by a program though? What are the statistics post-SOAP/Scramble?

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Hard to say. We only know what data is given. I believe these are post SOAP numbers. The universe is those who match via the NRMP and soap is considered part of the match. I have never seen average scores of those who apply, only average scores of those who match.

 

[Dharma]

I'm not going to say this is what I intend on getting next year on the boards. But for the sake of easing my worries about failing to match psych, how realistic is to for a middle of the class DO student with lets say a 480-500 COMLEX score or 210 USMLE to match somewhere relatively midrange ( Basically just decided to choose scores on the lowish end of the average deviation)?

I mean what I'm trying to say is whether or not the mood about psych getting competitive is really real or just hype and that still relatively open to almost any graduate?

It's getting tougher. Yes, it does depend on where you apply to/interview. But I didn't match at programs that would have been a shoe-in for someone like me a couple of years back. Game is changing; IMGs have already felt the crunch and D.O.s on their way as well. Less of this will be felt in the midwestern (minus Chicago), southern, and IMG-heavy sweatshop programs in larger cities (I'm looking at you NYC).

I commented about this in another post.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/i-think-i-need-a-mentor-any-takers.1195621/#post-17680700

Feel free to PM me.

 

[Ψ-117]

What was your experience in applying to Psych programs as DO? Anything that a DO student interested in psych should do to up their chances? Did you feel like you needed to be a relatively competitive applicant to get in?

I applied mostly to mid-tier programs. I think I was probably a decent applicant but I wouldn't have considered myself super competitive. I was in the top 25% of my class and had average or slightly better than average exam scores. I wasn't involved with research but I was an active member of some interest groups at school with leadership roles. Honestly, I think the best thing you can do if you are interested in a specific program is to do a rotation there, where the residents and faculty can get to know you personally. It may depend on the program, but I think if they know you and see that you're a hard worker with a good personality, you would probably be given the edge over someone else who may otherwise be more qualified than you.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Honestly, I think the best thing you can do if you are interested in a specific program is to do a rotation there, where the residents and faculty can get to know you personally. It may depend on the program, but I think if they know you and see that you're a hard worker with a good personality, you would probably be given the edge over someone else who may otherwise be more qualified than you.

 

[Blitz2006]

I'm not going to say this is what I intend on getting next year on the boards. But for the sake of easing my worries about failing to match psych, how realistic is to for a middle of the class DO student with lets say a 480-500 COMLEX score or 210 USMLE to match somewhere relatively midrange ( Basically just decided to choose scores on the lowish end of the average deviation)?

I mean what I'm trying to say is whether or not the mood about psych getting competitive is really real or just hype and that still relatively open to almost any graduate?

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Advance-Data-Tables-2016_Final.pdf

If you look at table 7, 10% increase in US MDs in each of the last 2 years, highest increase among all specialties.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Charting-Outcomes-2014-Final.pdf

Refer to Psych, page 253. In 2014, Step 1 Avg. = 220, Step 2 Avg = 231. In 2010, Step 1 Avg = 214.

So I think its safe to predict the average this year (2016) for Step 1 was probably around 224 +/- 1. Step 2, I'm gonna guess an average of around 234. And I suspect for both, it will go up again by 1-2 points for 2017 match. But obviously, take into account inflation (everyone's scores is going up, but my hunch is that psych is increasing at a faster rate relatively and closing in on other specialities).

Is Psych impossible for DOs? Of course not. Since you got 220s, you're WILL match. No doubt. But unlike 5 years ago, you probably won't be cherry picking university programs on the coasts, unless you have stacked research and/or 235s. So if you want to bang into places like Beth Israel in NYC/St. Lukes Roosevelt/LIJ or Jefferson in Philly or Georgetown in D.C, I would aim for a 240 on Step 2, and throw in a case report or a poster, psych related. I'm not saying you can't get into these places with a step 2 of 230-235, but 240 and I think you're breathing easy. BUT, if you just want to match into any ACGME program, anywhere in the country, then you can just coast 4th year, and you'll still be fine. Like others have mentionned, geography and academic of program will impact your rank list, greatly.

IMGs/DOs will be feeling the crunch in the upcoming matches, as Psych closes in on specialities like IM/Rads (Diagnostic, NOT IR)/Anesthesia over the next 4-5 years (which is when IMGs I think will be shut out of psych (2020), and DOs will have to be super competitive). Also, psych will most likely overtake Peds/FM/PMR/Path comfortably in the next 1-2 years (if psych hasn't already, which I think it has for FM/Peds).

I mean, in terms of US MD %, Psych is way head of IM/FM (61% vs. 43/45%). But IM is still ahead of psych in terms of USMLE Avg. (step 1 231 vs. 222, 2014 averages). But as I mentioned earlier, I suspect this gap will close in the next few years. It should be noted that this year, for the first time in 15 years, IM DROPPED in number of US MDs that matched into the specialty. This is a big deal, in a speciality that over the years has seen an increase in over 100-200 US MDs/year, on average. While I have no stats to back this up, I think its safe to say that the IM Step 1 231 average of 2014 has most likely been stagnate, and maybe even dropped 1-2 points this past match.

Just my 2 cents/prediction.

Anecdotally, I have definitely seen a much stronger interest among medical students in psych these past 2 years at my institution. Interest in electives/sub-i has shot up, no question.

 

[Dharma]

Is Psych impossible for DOs? Of course not. Since you got 220s, you're WILL match. No doubt. But unlike 5 years ago, you probably won't be cherry picking university programs on the coasts, unless you have stacked research and/or 235s. So if you want to bang into places like Beth Israel in NYC/St. Lukes Roosevelt/LIJ or Jefferson in Philly or Georgetown in D.C, I would aim for a 240 on Step 2, and throw in a case report or a poster, psych related. I'm not saying you can't get into these places with a step 2 of 230-235, but 240 and I think you're breathing easy. BUT, if you just want to match into any ACGME program, anywhere in the country, then you can just coast 4th year, and you'll still be fine. Like others have mentionned, geography and academic of program will impact your rank list, greatly.

Just an n=1 here, but I had the numbers (230s/250 but no research) and didn't match a program in this list here, although received invites from them. I think an away rotation done well will definitely help at these places. Have friends who matched last year at said programs following aways but with lesser scores. Just food for thought.

I think Blitz has been on to something. Psych is getting hot!

 

[markb2]

I'm a DO, and I didn't see the need to take USMLE, so I didn't. Now, not taking it might have prevented me from getting interviews at some of the big name programs I applied to, but I don't really know. Anyway, my COMLEX 1 score was in the 540s as well, and I was invited to interview at about 20 ACGME programs (and I applied to 25-30). I don't think you'll be hurting.

Nice, did you apply during this last cycle? Also did you bother taking step 2?

 

[kirkirkir]

Nice, did you apply during this last cycle? Also did you bother taking step 2?

to tag onto this...whats the step 2 CS situation for DOs?

 

[Ψ-117]

Nice, did you apply during this last cycle? Also did you bother taking step 2?

I started residency in 2012. I didn't take any of the USMLE steps, but I had completed levels 1 and 2 of the COMLEX, including PE, by the time I applied for residency.

 

[Ψ-117]

to tag onto this...whats the step 2 CS situation for DOs?

DOs take COMLEX Level 2-PE, for which everyone travels to a site where they examine a dozen standardized patient actors. When I took the exam I had to travel from the west coast all the way to Conshohocken, PA as that was the only test location, but I just learned that they now offer the exam in Chicago.

 

[kirkirkir]

DOs take COMLEX Level 2-PE, for which everyone travels to a site where they examine a dozen standardized patient actors. When I took the exam I had to travel from the west coast all the way to Conshohocken, PA as that was the only test location, but I just learned that they now offer the exam in Chicago.

Thanks but I think some places may (UCSF I've heard) require step2 cs of DOs too.

 

[Ψ-117]

Thanks but I think some places may (UCSF I've heard) require step2 cs of DOs too.

Oh, I see what you mean. I haven't heard of that before. I guess if you're interested in a specific program like that it would be best to ask them. Personally, I don't know if I would want to train in an environment that requires DOs to take extra exams just to prove that they're on par with the MDs. It does appear that UCSF accepts DOs (currently 2 of their 64 residents are DOs), but I couldn't find anything on their website specifically stating that DOs have to take the USMLE exams. Their website does state that everyone needs to have passing scores on the USMLE, and makes no reference to the COMLEX, but that was also the case for some of the programs I applied to which did in fact accept the COMLEX.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

It is all about perspective and perception and a little about marketing. Do AOA training programs take allopathic graduates? If they did, would it be fair of them to require COMLEX so they could be measured by the same yard stick? The burden of fairness to DO graduates doesn’t weigh heavy on the heads of medical school deans or university chancellors. They are very likely to be puzzled by any reference to “extra exams” and point out that these are the exams. These are what they use for entrance into graduate medical education and you are welcome not to take them or come to their training program. Some of the best allopathic students are specifically looking at programs with s*** head attitudes. I’m not saying it is right, it is just the current reality. I believe there are efforts to unify the ACGME and AOA. I believe this will help to cut down on these hard feelings. It will break down slowly, as the culture of exclusivity in Universities has a very long tradition.

 

[Dharma]

$#!+heads 4eva, in every walk of life, at most places. They ain't going anywhere. Can't blame them though.

In 100 years... all new people (mostly)... but there will still be plenty of $#!+heads. I don't waste much time thinking about them, except times like these.