Changing careers becuse of Obama???

[Can I Have Food]

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I had many doctors tell my friends that they recommend to not become a doctor because of Obama. Also, I'm shadowing a few doctors right now, and they all are VERY PISSED off at Obama. Their patients are also upset. I don't know much and I'm still learning, but a few of the things they told us:

1. People can no longer choose the doctors they want to see. Primary care doctors are in charged of controlling who gets to see specialized doctors and which specialist. Not only this, everyone is assigned a doctor.

2. For those who are going into medicine partially because of the pay, doctors will make as much as teachers... and the prices of certain procedures, examinations, etc... are set by the government.

3. It gives poor people health care, but many of the poor people are illegal immigrants.


What do you all think??

 

[droogdoc]

Some of this is true. Some advisors close to Obama have actually stated that the reason healthcare is so expensive is that doctors make too much money. Cant wait to have my salary mandated by the federal government.

Actually taking the time to read sections of what was drwan up in the House of Reps is time consuming but is worth it. From what I've read, it definitely doesnt look good, for docs or patients.

Also, read about Dr. Ezekieil Emmanuel, Obama's top healthcare advisor. The stuff this guy has written, in the JAMA no less, is pretty disgusting. Even more disgusting he calls himself a physician. He;s the brother of Rahm Emmanuel, Obama;s chief of staff. Every physician should be mad at Obama for the way he has demonized them, stating they purposefully choos to amputate limbs for more money or take out tonsils. Average reimbursement for an amputation is like 4000-6000, not 35,000 like Obama said.

Also, the 47 million uninsured is not true. After you subtract the numbers of people who are illegal residents, people who make 75000/year or more who choose not to get it, people between jobs the number is 10-11 million in the whole country who are chronically uninsured, and many of them qualify for Medicaid but havent applied for it. All of this info is available from the U.S. Census Bureau. But many people dont look anything up and just go by what they are told.

The docs I've talked to recently, including my own, have said that being "pissed off at Obama" is an understatement.

 

[DocHomer]

I had many doctors tell my friends that they recommend to not become a doctor because of Obama. Also, I'm shadowing a few doctors right now, and they all are VERY PISSED off at Obama. Their patients are also upset. I don't know much and I'm still learning, but a few of the things they told us:

1. People can no longer choose the doctors they want to see. Primary care doctors are in charged of controlling who gets to see specialized doctors and which specialist. Not only this, everyone is assigned a doctor.

2. For those who are going into medicine partially because of the pay, doctors will make as much as teachers... and the prices of certain procedures, examinations, etc... are set by the government.

3. It gives poor people health care, but many of the poor people are illegal immigrants.


What do you all think??

I think you need to do your own research because you obviously have been influenced by some hardcore right-wingers. I'm not saying I support his proposal (I don't), but a lot of what you stated sounds like RNC talking points. Remember, politics is driving this debate, not whether such policies will benefit patients.

I can rebut everything you cited, but you should seek it out on your own. Factcheck.org is a good place to start.

 

[droogdoc]

Remember, politics is driving this debate, not whether such policies will benefit patients.QUOTE]


I agree. But I do wish that 47 million number would stop being thrown around.
There are many things he has said that are just plain wrong.

 

[coffeeeandtea]

I had many doctors tell my friends that they recommend to not become a doctor because of Obama. Also, I'm shadowing a few doctors right now, and they all are VERY PISSED off at Obama. Their patients are also upset. I don't know much and I'm still learning, but a few of the things they told us:

1. People can no longer choose the doctors they want to see. Primary care doctors are in charged of controlling who gets to see specialized doctors and which specialist. Not only this, everyone is assigned a doctor.

2. For those who are going into medicine partially because of the pay, doctors will make as much as teachers... and the prices of certain procedures, examinations, etc... are set by the government.

3. It gives poor people health care, but many of the poor people are illegal immigrants.


What do you all think??

umm ... wouldn't this be more appropriate in the Sociopolitical Forum? In any case, these descriptions, especially 1 and 2, sound more like the Single-Payer System (that most first-world countries have), which Obama's plan isn't advocating. the public option is going to be an OPTION. you'll still be able to keep your private plan. this is actually how it works in Canada: you can use the public plan and then have a private plan on the side to make up for what the public one doesn't cover. also, re: illegal immigrants -- they probably already get free health care anyway, via emergency rooms (since ERs aren't allowed to turn anyone away).

personally, i'm not too sure about Obama's healthcare plan, but what i am sure of is that the current health care system definitely needs to be changed.

 

[YA7ES]

umm ... wouldn't this be more appropriate in the Sociopolitical Forum? In any case, these descriptions, especially 1 and 2, sound more like the Single-Payer System (that most first-world countries have), which Obama's plan isn't advocating. the public option is going to be an OPTION. you'll still be able to keep your private plan. this is actually how it works in Canada: you can use the public plan and then have a private plan on the side to make up for what the public one doesn't cover. also, re: illegal immigrants -- they probably already get free health care anyway, via emergency rooms (since ERs aren't allowed to turn anyone away).

personally, i'm not too sure about Obama's healthcare plan, but what i am sure of is that the current health care system definitely needs to be changed.

No one will choose the private plan because the public plan will be SOO MUCH CHEAPER... and will eventually drive private insurance companies bankrupt..

 

[droogdoc]

No one will choose the private plan because the public plan will be SOO MUCH CHEAPER... and will eventually drive private insurance companies bankrupt..

Exactly.

Also, how do you cut costs by keeping benefits the same.

 

[ffsparky26]

Well I spoke with a physician who got his MD at the end of WWII. He was an US Army doc and worked in the UK at one point when there were still docs in the UK who had experienced the free market system.

He said that the docs who had only worked in the socialist system had no complaints and others learned to adjust.

I am changing careers, becoming a physician for me is more for me than the money. I'm going to put my life on pause and stress my marriage.

I am going to become a physician socialist system or not.

 

[tjaze]

I'm telling people to go into dentistry. How those people managed to isolate themselves from this whole health system is miraculous. They basically have autonomy from self-serving politicians and CEO's.

 

[DrYoda]

I had many doctors tell my friends that they recommend to not become a doctor because of Obama. Also, I'm shadowing a few doctors right now, and they all are VERY PISSED off at Obama. Their patients are also upset. I don't know much and I'm still learning, but a few of the things they told us:

1. People can no longer choose the doctors they want to see. Primary care doctors are in charged of controlling who gets to see specialized doctors and which specialist. Not only this, everyone is assigned a doctor.

2. For those who are going into medicine partially because of the pay, doctors will make as much as teachers... and the prices of certain procedures, examinations, etc... are set by the government.

3. It gives poor people health care, but many of the poor people are illegal immigrants.


What do you all think??

Nothing is set in stone yet. There will be changes (but there allways are in healthcare anyway) but what they are is still very much up in the air. Also, some of the stuff you're talking about(assigned doctors, salary of teachers) will probably never happen.

 

[Bacchus]

Instead of propogating myths, read this: http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/09/09/obama.plan.pdf

 

[droogdoc]

I dont see how they will manage this system when they cant manage Medicare and the VA system. I use the VA system, so trust me on that one.

Medicare has over $36 TRILLION in unfunded obligations as of 2008, according to the Medicare Board of Trustees. According to the Office of Budget & Management in the White House, it will cost 350% of GDP by 2050 if not fixed, which it wont be.

If the govt hasn't fixed the issues with Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, and Social Security, why should we believe this is so great??

There are a myriad of issues with the US Healthcare System, but just my personal opinion I dont think this is the answer, especially afte reading through some of the House Bill.

 

[PeterDO2B]

I had many doctors tell my friends that they recommend to not become a doctor because of Obama. Also, I'm shadowing a few doctors right now, and they all are VERY PISSED off at Obama. Their patients are also upset. I don't know much and I'm still learning, but a few of the things they told us:

1. People can no longer choose the doctors they want to see. Primary care doctors are in charged of controlling who gets to see specialized doctors and which specialist. Not only this, everyone is assigned a doctor.

2. For those who are going into medicine partially because of the pay, doctors will make as much as teachers... and the prices of certain procedures, examinations, etc... are set by the government.

3. It gives poor people health care, but many of the poor people are illegal immigrants.


What do you all think??

I personally think a lot of them are full of it. I seriously doubt the reform bill that Obama and the Democrats formulated will pass in its current form. I also believe than American physicians are the best compensated on Earth. I also hate people who whine and complain just because things got difficult. There is so much of it in today's America.

 

[wasvsdal]

A) You cant compare Medicare with this plan.
Reason: Its for senior citizens, and is funded by us. Like Obama said in his speech yesterday, it is a sacred trust that should be passed down. Because of Medicare, millions of senior citizens are able to go to a doctor. Imagine, if they didnt have Medicare, then doctors would be getting paid NOTHING, and ER units would be clogged because that would be the only place, where these senior citizens would actually get looked at.

B) Stop watching Fox News, or MSNBC. Watch CNN instead.
Reason: Those two channels are so biased, it makes me puke. Half of the things that were posted by the op are false rumors that are being spread by conservative Republicans. They are not true. Below is what will happen:

A Public Plan run by the Government:
Right now you get insurance coverage from Blue Cross Blue Shield, Aetna, Cigna, or one of the major insurance companies. Now add one more to the list. You pay them a premium, they provide you with insurance. In this public plan, doctors will get paid 5-10% more than what they would for their Medicare counterparts.

Once again, doctors who would normally get paid NOTHING will be PAID because of this insurance coverage.

I also believe they are planning on making it mandatory for everyone to have health coverage. This would benefit all insurance companies, because young adults, who are generally healthy and dont need to go to the doctor will also be paying premiums.

As far as the entire debate about 47 million uninsured vs. 11 million. It doesnt matter. Illegal immigrants are NOT allowed to sign up for this, but even if they were, they would still be obligated to pay a premium. I think they should let them get on this public plan because right now these illegal immigrants are clogging up our hospitals, and are more or less getting free service.

Also, in this health plan, businesses that make over $250k and fail to provide insurance to their employees get a health care tax. Plain and simple!

Simply put, MORE INSURED PATIENTS = MORE MONEY FOR DOCTORS!

Theres nothing wrong with this plan. Stop falling into these traps that are being setup by immoral lil shmucks.

Finally, you are becoming a doctor to help our society be healthier. As long as you do it for the love, and not for the money...you will be happy and you will be wealthy enough.

 

[supras2kracer]

I think you should fact check those claims.

There's no way in hell doctors are going to make as much as teachers. You seriously believe that a doctor is going to make 30k a year? Stop listening to extremists (left and right) and do your own research to make a judgment.

Yeah you're right about illegal immigrants getting healthcare. They already do get healthcare FOR FREE by visiting an ER. The government (in AZ) comps like 8 bucks per uninsured patient they see (source: ER doc/chairman of the ER).

 

[supras2kracer]

If the govt hasn't fixed the issues with Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, and Social Security, why should we believe this is so great??

Because the almighty OBAMA created it! (sarcasm)

 

[wasvsdal]

You pay now, you get now (this plan) vs. you pay now, you get later philosophy (Medicare, SS, VA).

It is expected that senior citizens, who are retired, will not be able to pay hefty private premiums for their coverage. That is the whole premise behind the idea. You cant reasonably come up with a plan that will fix that, unless you just jack up the tax rates.

Think of it like this: Insurance companies rake in billions of dollars in profit. Now imagine that money is being invested back in the ppl. (lame example i know but trynna get a point across here). Point being: this public plan will work just like a private insurance plan, except it will be NON-PROFIT.

 

[Tuckermans]

A) You cant compare Medicare with this plan.
Reason: Its for senior citizens, and is funded by us. Like Obama said in his speech yesterday, it is a sacred trust that should be passed down. Because of Medicare, millions of senior citizens are able to go to a doctor. Imagine, if they didnt have Medicare, then doctors would be getting paid NOTHING, and ER units would be clogged because that would be the only place, where these senior citizens would actually get looked at.

B) Stop watching Fox News, or MSNBC. Watch CNN instead.
Reason: Those two channels are so biased, it makes me puke. Half of the things that were posted by the op are false rumors that are being spread by conservative Republicans. They are not true. Below is what will happen:

A Public Plan run by the Government:
Right now you get insurance coverage from Blue Cross Blue Shield, Aetna, Cigna, or one of the major insurance companies. Now add one more to the list. You pay them a premium, they provide you with insurance. In this public plan, doctors will get paid 5-10% more than what they would for their Medicare counterparts.

Once again, doctors who would normally get paid NOTHING will be PAID because of this insurance coverage.

I also believe they are planning on making it mandatory for everyone to have health coverage. This would benefit all insurance companies, because young adults, who are generally healthy and dont need to go to the doctor will also be paying premiums.

As far as the entire debate about 47 million uninsured vs. 11 million. It doesnt matter. Illegal immigrants are NOT allowed to sign up for this, but even if they were, they would still be obligated to pay a premium. I think they should let them get on this public plan because right now these illegal immigrants are clogging up our hospitals, and are more or less getting free service.

Also, in this health plan, businesses that make over $250k and fail to provide insurance to their employees get a health care tax. Plain and simple!

Simply put, MORE INSURED PATIENTS = MORE MONEY FOR DOCTORS!

Theres nothing wrong with this plan. Stop falling into these traps that are being setup by immoral lil shmucks.

Finally, you are becoming a doctor to help our society be healthier. As long as you do it for the love, and not for the money...you will be happy and you will be wealthy enough.

CNN unbiased???? Really? I mean, I am as independent as they come (voted for Obama last year and Bush the election before that) but the idea that CNN isn't as biased as the rest of them is a little absurd. They just try a little harder to hide their opinions.

 

[wasvsdal]

CNN is probably slightly liberal, but out of the three major news channels (Fox News, CNN, MSNBC), they are the most unbiased.

I watch CNN, and read the Wall Street Journal. No form of journalism can be unbiased, its an innate limitation of the profession. The goal is to try and overcome that limitation as much as possible. WSJ is slightly conservative, and CNN is slightly liberal. MSNBC and Fox News piss me off. Seriously, its more reality tv than news.

 

[MissIrish]

...

 

[DrMcKittrick]

I had many doctors tell my friends that they recommend to not become a doctor because of Obama. Also, I'm shadowing a few doctors right now, and they all are VERY PISSED off at Obama. Their patients are also upset. I don't know much and I'm still learning, but a few of the things they told us:

1. People can no longer choose the doctors they want to see. Primary care doctors are in charged of controlling who gets to see specialized doctors and which specialist. Not only this, everyone is assigned a doctor.

2. For those who are going into medicine partially because of the pay, doctors will make as much as teachers... and the prices of certain procedures, examinations, etc... are set by the government.

3. It gives poor people health care, but many of the poor people are illegal immigrants.


What do you all think??

1. That is already being done with managed care HMO's. You can't just go see anyone if you have an HMO.

2. The bill proposed by the house was just a draft and taken out of context by many right wingers (ie. Fox News, Rush Limbaugh). I can tell you right now that exams, radiographs, and other healthcare procedures are already set by insurance companies and in many cases like United Healthcare those reimubursements have decreased while premiums have gone up. Who keeps the money? Not the doctors.

3. As stated by others, illegals are sometimes getting better care then those who pay for it right now, and the bill goes to those who pay the monthly premiums. Monthly premiums already go up at least 20% each year even if you don't file a claim, while salaries do not. This is extremely unbalanced and it is only a matter of time before it deflates like the housing market did.

 

[droogdoc]

To answer the question, no. I am not so short-sighted as to allow policies that aren't even in place yet dictate my career choices. I'm not worried about the money. I am a non-trad, college graduate, not even clearing $40K right now in yearly salary, living a pretty good life as it is, having come from a lower class upbringing where neither of my parents were college graduates. Perspective helps in these times.

I am in the same situation, and upbringing.

Also, people asking where the BILLIONS go from procedures is a good question. Not the doctors, true. But if they go to the insurance companies, why is the average profit margin for insurance companies 3.3%?? Damn, even Frito-Lay and Pepsi post profits of 26%.

Where does that money go?

 

[Duluth]

Total socialization of health care or total laissez-faire, I am going to have the same desire to help people.

 

[Tuckermans]

Total socialization of health care or total laissez-faire, I am going to have the same desire to help people.

I feel the same way. However after 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school and minimum 3 years of residency (and the loans keep stacking up) I would like to be compensated accordingly. I don't need/want/expect to be a millionaire, but being paid according to the sacrifices we have all made would be nice.

 

[Cannonball]

There is too much noise out there for anyone to really make an informed opinion about all of this. It constantly amazes me how how much the talking heads think they know about what is going on. The fact is nothing is set in stone yet, and in America (the greatest place in the world) nothing ever is. I believe in the people of this land-if we don't like what is going on we can always hire a new guy to come in and change it back.

I think we all need to be a bit more open minded. And, if those claims the talking heads make sound absurd, they probably are....Docs making $30,000/year? come on.

 

[123165]

Issue #1

There will be no tort reform, regardless of what president Obama has said. He will not take on the trial lawyers. What is a medical malpractice demonstration grant anyway?

Issue #2

He seems to have changed his tone on preexisting conditions. The original plan disallowed rate adjustment based on health, now you cannot be denied coverage because of it, major difference. It may still cost a ton.

Issue #3

Preventative care. I agree with the encouragement of preventative care as long as it is through a care plan outlined by physician. For instance, lowering the age of initial mammogram testing will catch cancer quicker, but is not necessarily cost-effective.

Issue #4

Medicare. I think medicare is wonderful, however the recent speech was unclear about the future of medicare advantage. There was something about reducing medicare payments to providers by $550 million, how can you do that with no reduction in care?

Issue #5

Illegal aliens. How will they check the status of these immigrants. If there is too much verification it will not be cost effective, and if there is too little then we will be insuring them.

Thumbs up #1

Insurance Exchange, sounds awesome to me, I think they should also allow coverage competition across state borders. I am all for this free-market solution.

Thumbs up #2

Tax credits for premiums. Another great solution.

Ponderings

What is the penalty for not having insurance? It would have to be stiffer than the insurance premiums in order to force people to have converage.

As for the self-sufficient public option. I believe that by not screening, this company could operate at costs much lower than the public companies. What happens if they set the industry standard for reimbursements? What if they pay the same as medicare? If the premiums are low enough, and the reimbursements low enough, the private industry will not be able to compete.

And for the "high-risk" national pool, the speech makes it sound like catastrophe insurance. If someone is in poor enough health, catastrophic insurance will do little for them, it is their monthly bills that are financially killing them.

The panel of experts looking for waste in healthcare will have a laundry list of things about medicare they cannot change, like benefits and eligibility. reimbursement is not on that list.

I really would like to see a bill.

"I am Not the First President to Take Up This Cause, But I am Determined to Be the Last"

That scares me. The ability to change is what makes democracy great. President Obama likely does not mean the things I read between the lines in this quote, but it still scares me.

 

[PeterDO2B]

I had many doctors tell my friends that they recommend to not become a doctor because of Obama. Also, I'm shadowing a few doctors right now, and they all are VERY PISSED off at Obama. Their patients are also upset. I don't know much and I'm still learning, but a few of the things they told us:

1. People can no longer choose the doctors they want to see. Primary care doctors are in charged of controlling who gets to see specialized doctors and which specialist. Not only this, everyone is assigned a doctor.

2. For those who are going into medicine partially because of the pay, doctors will make as much as teachers... and the prices of certain procedures, examinations, etc... are set by the government.

3. It gives poor people health care, but many of the poor people are illegal immigrants.


What do you all think??

Actually Doctors in Canada earn about the same amount that they do in the US. In fact, with the US Dollar headed to peso status, I bet they will earn more in the near future. Even British doctors do really well. I have an uncle in Germany who is a family doctor there, and they make around 100,000 Euros a year, that is about 150k a year in American money.

 

[Longshanks]

ITT: The sky is falling

This whole debate has lost logic, and if the original knee jerk reactions weren't bad enough, all is left is gut reactions that spit in the face of reality. I've given up debating on this forum about this topic because people are either for it without thinking it through just to support their political ideology or people are against it strictly based on party line and without contemplating the facts. Try reading some independent resources and making up your own minds rather than listening to the fear mongering rants of Limbaugh and Beck. Reading Chicken Little might be the start of independent reading. Once you see the sky isn't falling maybe then people can work logically through the issues of our current health care system and see reform is needed, and that the reform trying to be put through is the best workable option we have in America for such a broad country with varying demographics. Abandon the lies and distortions and base your opinions on fact. Keep in mind too that people always talk about 'their day' being better than 'your day'. Doctors in the 60s told students in the 70s is just wasn't the same anymore, it continues on and on generation to generation. Music today just isn't the same as music before, right guys and girls?

 

[Longshanks]

I am in the same situation, and upbringing.

Also, people asking where the BILLIONS go from procedures is a good question. Not the doctors, true. But if they go to the insurance companies, why is the average profit margin for insurance companies 3.3%?? Damn, even Frito-Lay and Pepsi post profits of 26%.

Where does that money go?

Profit margin is 20-25% for private for profit insurance [this is from United Health records], 15-18%(during the 90s) and 18-22% currently for non-profit insurance [this number is from what Blue Cross/Blue Shield representative told our hospital at a meeting last month]. Almost every procedure would be paid for if it was 3.3%, who ever gave you that number is lying. Maybe we forgot what insurance is: saving money to pay for bad times, accidents, etc, and spreading liability out to decrease costs for everyone.

Another interesting thing is that its illegal for Vegas casinos to take home more than 30%, and Atlantic City to take more than 27%. I'll let you figure why that is.

 

[DrYoda]

Profit margin is 20-25% for private for profit insurance [this is from United Health records], 15-18%(during the 90s) and 18-22% currently for non-profit insurance [this number is from what Blue Cross/Blue Shield representative told our hospital at a meeting last month]. Almost every procedure would be paid for if it was 3.3%, who ever gave you that number is lying. Maybe we forgot what insurance is: saving money to pay for bad times, accidents, etc, and spreading liability out to decrease costs for everyone.

Another interesting thing is that its illegal for Vegas casinos to take home more than 30%, and Atlantic City to take more than 27%. I'll let you figure why that is.

I didn't belive it when he posted that either... but I just checked.

United Health Group (UNH)-4.1%
Wellpoint (WLP)-4.0%
Humana (HUM)-2.8%
Aetna (AET)- 3.8%

and for comparison.
Pepsi(PEP)- 11.9%
McDonalds (MCD)- 18.8%
Aflac(AFL)- 6.9%

Now maybe it's that way because they give insane bonuses or something. But for some reason their margins are suprisingly low.

 

[spicedmanna]

ITT: The sky is falling

This whole debate has lost logic, and if the original knee jerk reactions weren't bad enough, all is left is gut reactions that spit in the face of reality. I've given up debating on this forum about this topic because people are either for it without thinking it through just to support their political ideology or people are against it strictly based on party line and without contemplating the facts. Try reading some independent resources and making up your own minds rather than listening to the fear mongering rants of Limbaugh and Beck. Reading Chicken Little might be the start of independent reading. Once you see the sky isn't falling maybe then people can work logically through the issues of our current health care system and see reform is needed, and that the reform trying to be put through is the best workable option we have in America for such a broad country with varying demographics. Abandon the lies and distortions and base your opinions on fact. Keep in mind too that people always talk about 'their day' being better than 'your day'. Doctors in the 60s told students in the 70s is just wasn't the same anymore, it continues on and on generation to generation. Music today just isn't the same as music before, right guys and girls?

Very wise words, indeed. 👍

Fear of change or the unknown is pretty normal, as is resistance to change. It's natural; a part of being human. Just don't let it run your life. There are lots of people and groups, right now, using fear in an attempt to manipulate the masses, in order to further their agendas. They think we are dumb, prisoners of our own "reptilian brain." They think we can't see the man behind the curtain. Prove them wrong: don't buy into the hype.

I don't know how all this heath care policy stuff is going to play out. Nobody does. As far as I know, everything is still up in the air. Maybe it will look nothing like we think it will, or maybe nothing will come of it at this time. Truthfully, I don't have a clue. I do know this, though: our current system is essentially defunct and unsustainable. A major change is all but inevitable, sooner or later.

All things change, whether we like it or not, but major shifts in society tend to bring the most fear and resistance, obviously. If I recall my social theories correctly, cultures tend to resist the inevitable, for better or worse (worse usually), until a certain critical crisis point or mass is reached. We like to ride the train of familiarity as long as possible, even when it has worn down to it's last bolt. Sometimes, the equivalent of a "cultural earthquake" is needed before a major change will occur in society. Perhaps this has something to do with the fundamental fear of dying, or perhaps, even more fundamental than that, the fear of the unknown. Even our classic literature challenges us to "Rage, rage against the dying of the light." This is not necessary a bad challenge, when founded in knowledge, wisdom, and courage. However, I suspect a lot of it is based in ignorance. Educate yourself and let knowledge guide you through the transitions.

Anyway, whatever happens with the health care system, for better or worse (or just different), I don't think the guiding commitments, the foundations of what it means be to a doctor, will change significantly. It hasn't since the time of the first physicians and it is a tradition that continues on. We are, and will always be, the advocates of our patients' health. Everything else may change around that principle, including the ways we do that, and what we must battle to make it happen, but our commitment to our patients and to our society should never change. If that's not sufficient reason to be a physician, then perhaps you do need to consider a different course of study, regardless of what happens to health care. Even though there are lots of practical reasons to be or not be a physician, and they are not insignificant nor unimportant reasons, I'd like to think that at the top of the list, is my desire to honor that guiding commitment.

I think I'm going to be okay adapting to whatever happens to health care as long as I can continue to honor that commitment. I have faith that things will eventually work themselves out. If being the primary advocates of your patient's health is important to you and you like doing that at the level of a physician, I challenge you to stay in the game and make good on that commitment, and if that doesn't interest you, then do what makes you happy.

 

[ShinyDome19]

To answer the question, no. I am not so short-sighted as to allow policies that aren't even in place yet dictate my career choices. I'm not worried about the money. I am a non-trad, college graduate, not even clearing $40K right now in yearly salary, living a pretty good life as it is, having come from a lower class upbringing where neither of my parents were college graduates. Perspective helps in these times.

I am right there with you MissIrish. I too am a non-trad. and have been making less than $40K a year with a bachelors and masters in microbiology and am living quite well. I honestly would be more than happy to go through medical school with less loans and come out of residency making 50-80K a year, loving my career.... than making >200K and be stuck with 200K+ in loans and having to deal with a ton of political B.S. when it comes to treating patients.

In fact, I hope the salaries for all physicians decreases tremendously. Get rid of the people that do it simply to make a buck, and get people in there that want to be there to help people.

 

[wasvsdal]

"I am Not the First President to Take Up This Cause, But I am Determined to Be the Last"

That scares me. The ability to change is what makes democracy great. President Obama likely does not mean the things I read between the lines in this quote, but it still scares me.

They have been trying to reform health care since Roosevelt. That is ~60 years without success. It is obviously a need, more now then it was then. All Obama is saying that this time around a reform will happen. Democracy is about inputting your opinions and being able to change this plan; it has nothing to do with it being (un)successful. This health care reform, and all the current events associated with it are the best examples of the greatest democracy in the world.

 

[tjaze]

I am right there with you MissIrish. I too am a non-trad. and have been making less than $40K a year with a bachelors and masters in microbiology and am living quite well. I honestly would be more than happy to go through medical school with less loans and come out of residency making 50-80K a year, loving my career.... than making >200K and be stuck with 200K+ in loans and having to deal with a ton of political B.S. when it comes to treating patients.

In fact, I hope the salaries for all physicians decreases tremendously. Get rid of the people that do it simply to make a buck, and get people in there that want to be there to help people.

if that happens, the doctors in this country will be third-world quality, and those that are competent will be from asia and won't understand the culture of america. i know that if i need surgery, i want the guy performing it to be happy with his pay. don't kid yourself. if you take away a high salary, the number of intelligent medical school applicants would decrease tremendously. naive premeds make funny comments.

 

[Ariee]

if that happens, the doctors in this country will be third-world quality, and those that are competent will be from asia and won't understand the culture of america. i know that if i need surgery, i want the guy performing it to be happy with his pay. don't kid yourself. if you take away a high salary, the number of intelligent medical school applicants would decrease tremendously. naive premeds make funny comments.

 

[ShinyDome19]

if that happens, the doctors in this country will be third-world quality, and those that are competent will be from asia and won't understand the culture of america. i know that if i need surgery, i want the guy performing it to be happy with his pay. don't kid yourself. if you take away a high salary, the number of intelligent medical school applicants would decrease tremendously. naive premeds make funny comments.

Your kidding me, right? Take yourself off your little pedestal for a minute and think about what you just wrote. Your saying that someone's income correlates to their level of intelligence and people who are intelligent are more likely to go after jobs that pay more? By that logic, people with PhDs in social work and the sciences, who on average gross 40-50K a year, are complete idiots compared to the future you, oh and the future you is an idiot compared to football/hockey players that gross in the millions.

Also, seeing that only, what, 30% of the thousands of applicants actually get into medical school; a decrease in applicant pool every year consisting of those who actually want to be there to learn to care for people, rather than those that are there for the big pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, I somehow see that as improving the level of care we receive.

 

[lmnguye4]

Your kidding me, right? Take yourself off your little pedestal for a minute and think about what you just wrote. Your saying that someone’s income correlates to their level of intelligence and people who are intelligent are more likely to go after jobs that pay more? By that logic, people with PhDs in social work and the sciences, who on average gross 40-50K a year, are complete idiots compared to the future you, oh and the future you is an idiot compared to football/hockey players that gross in the millions.

Also, seeing that only, what, 30% of the thousands of applicants actually get into medical school; a decrease in applicant pool every year consisting of those who actually want to be there to learn to care for people, rather than those that are there for the big pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, I somehow see that as improving the level of care we receive.

+1 👍

 

[lmnguye4]

if that happens, the doctors in this country will be third-world quality, and those that are competent will be from asia and won't understand the culture of america. i know that if i need surgery, i want the guy performing it to be happy with his pay. don't kid yourself. if you take away a high salary, the number of intelligent medical school applicants would decrease tremendously. naive premeds make funny comments.

 

[Jamers]

I think you should fact check those claims.

There's no way in hell doctors are going to make as much as teachers. You seriously believe that a doctor is going to make 30k a year? Stop listening to extremists (left and right) and do your own research to make a judgment.

Yeah you're right about illegal immigrants getting healthcare. They already do get healthcare FOR FREE by visiting an ER. The government (in AZ) comps like 8 bucks per uninsured patient they see (source: ER doc/chairman of the ER).

Not only that but if you actually take the time to look up the average salaries of those "socialists" over in the UK you are alarmed to find out they are earning about the same as our physicians over here. In fact, "Salaried GPs employed directly by PCTs earn between £53,249 to 80,354, dependent on, among other factors, length of service and experience." Everyone worries about the pay cuts but even the big wigs in government know that no one is going to go through 8 years or education and years of residency to make chump change.


http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/details/Default.aspx?Id=553

 

[123165]

They have been trying to reform health care since Roosevelt. That is ~60 years without success. It is obviously a need, more now then it was then. All Obama is saying that this time around a reform will happen. Democracy is about inputting your opinions and being able to change this plan; it has nothing to do with it being (un)successful. This health care reform, and all the current events associated with it are the best examples of the greatest democracy in the world.

You completely ignored my point.

 

[123165]

In fact, I hope the salaries for all physicians decreases tremendously. Get rid of the people that do it simply to make a buck, and get people in there that want to be there to help people.

I would disagree with this. If there was a large decrease in physician salary, I truly believe that the caliber of applicants would decrease as well. Also, there are much easier ways to make a buck than becoming a physician, and I would argue that most are not just in it for the money. I am not sure whose skills I would trust more, a physician just in it for the money, or one who just wants to help people. Neither are a guarantee of quality care.

Do people really believe that the quality of medicine would not decrease, if the quality of medical school applicants decreased?

 

[tjaze]

+1 👍

Your kidding me, right? Take yourself off your little pedestal for a minute and think about what you just wrote. Your saying that someone’s income correlates to their level of intelligence and people who are intelligent are more likely to go after jobs that pay more? By that logic, people with PhDs in social work and the sciences, who on average gross 40-50K a year, are complete idiots compared to the future you, oh and the future you is an idiot compared to football/hockey players that gross in the millions.

Also, seeing that only, what, 30% of the thousands of applicants actually get into medical school; a decrease in applicant pool every year consisting of those who actually want to be there to learn to care for people, rather than those that are there for the big pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, I somehow see that as improving the level of care we receive.

you'll figure it out when you're an M3.

 

[123165]

you'll figure it out when you're an M3.

While I think tjaze is using a bit of hyperbole, at least I hope, because no one believes our physicians will be 3rd world quality. However, a comparison between professional sports and other professions is just as silly. What do you think would happen to the quality of applicants if burger joints paid $15 an hour? Increased competition, which leads to more driven individuals to fill the role.

And actually, to return to the professional sports analogy, if the athletes were paid $50,00 a year, I would doubt that they would train as much as they currently do. This is just my opinion though.

 

[USArmyDoc]

Total socialization of health care or total laissez-faire, I am going to have the same desire to help people.

Give me a break.....wait till you are in this disaster called medical school then let us know. 👎rolleyes:😡

 

[USArmyDoc]

if that happens, the doctors in this country will be third-world quality, and those that are competent will be from asia and won't understand the culture of america. i know that if i need surgery, i want the guy performing it to be happy with his pay. don't kid yourself. if you take away a high salary, the number of intelligent medical school applicants would decrease tremendously. naive premeds make funny comments.

👍👍👍

Don't listen to the rest of them. As a medical student, I understand how difficult this $hit really is and anyone who gets themselves into this to "help people" are in for a biggg surprise. Compensation is a necessity.

I can't stand this I want to help people crap. Yes when you are on the floors it is awesome to have the ability to change someone's life, but it is also difficult. No one is going to work hard and enjoy what they are doing if there is not proper compensation....Everyone can deny it here but money is essential in this world and if money is essential we want to feel that we are paid appropriately for what we do.

 

[Styria]

The only way for the government to keep health care costs down is to have less health care. That's why it's rationed in countries with socialized medicine and why people have to wait in line for months for procedures you can schedule in two weeks here.

 

[spicedmanna]

you'll figure it out when you're an M3.

Give me a break.....wait till you are in this disaster called medical school then let us know. 👎rolleyes:😡

👍👍👍

Don't listen to the rest of them. As a medical student, I understand how difficult this $hit really is and anyone who gets themselves into this to "help people" are in for a biggg surprise. Compensation is a necessity.

I can't stand this I want to help people crap. Yes when you are on the floors it is awesome to have the ability to change someone's life, but it is also difficult. No one is going to work hard and enjoy what they are doing if there is not proper compensation....Everyone can deny it here but money is essential in this world and if money is essential we want to feel that we are paid appropriately for what we do.

Yeah, the process is most certainly difficult and sometimes it brings you to your knees. It's also very long and expensive. You have to jump through seemingly endless hoops and rarely do you feel the pressure let up. You get abused, yelled at, and scutted out. Often, you feel like you never really know anything, and when you do, you have to move on to the next level where you don't know anything again. At any level, there always seems like there's more work to be done and not enough time to do it. I can't even remember the last time I had a truly good night's sleep. Some patient's talk to much, some give you a hard time, and some are just plain crazy. Your attendings pimp you, and you feel like the lowest scum of the Earth. Welcome to life! I've had worse situations (and jobs) in my life, for sure.

Yeah, we get it. It's hard. Sometimes it's so difficult that you feel like quiting. ****, I must have felt that way half a dozen times. The pressure and craziness sometimes makes me get really down on myself, but I pick myself off of the floor and move on. That's what we all do.

For me the first two years of medical were pretty much a complete drag. I force-fed myself a lot of information and it definitely didn't go down easy. I kept waiting for this stuff to get more fun, but it really never did. While studying for Step 1 was perhaps one of the more challenging academic activities I've ever done, it was intellectually satisfying because the pieces of the puzzle were finally coming together.

Third year is a blast and a completely different experience than my first two years. It's a complete 180. I'm really having fun. Sure it's difficult and all, but I get to work with patients and that automatically makes it better. How could you not have a good time learn clinical medicine and being actually involved in your patient's care? It was what I was waiting for, enduring all the crap for, all those endless nights of studying. Yeah, I get pimped, have to deal with "office" politics, the occasional annoying patient, or the patient who won't shut up (or is just plain crazy). Yes, there are a lot of non-compliant patients and certainly there is a lot to do and learn. It's definitely exhausting. I go home after work and just crash on my couch after attempting to read a few pages in my medical text about what I saw that day. Some days, I don't connect with my patients and it feels like a harder day and I go home more worn out, but when I do connect with at least a few patients, it feels like a much more fulfilling day. Granted, I am currently rotating in a field I enjoy.

I don't know. It sounds like I am having a different experience than many of you. I agree that medical school is very difficult. I would never do this **** over again. It's too painful. However, I don't understand how you think it's so difficult that the intrinsic rewards of the job are not worth the effort you putting in. It's sufficient for me. I'm not saying I wouldn't enjoy being justly compensated. I'm not saying that adequate compensation isn't important. Obviously it's a necessity in our world. I'm just not as money hungry as I used to be when I was younger and I don't need it to make things worthwhile. I do want to make enough to do everything I want to do, though, so money is part of the package; it just isn't at the very top of my list. Goodness knows I don't want this to happen, but if it did, and I were to be paid less, I wouldn't be embittered by that, as long as I still enjoyed the intrinsic rewards.

Perhaps my thoughts and feelings will change in time, but right now, I don't see why you feel like you have to "punch" pre-meds in the face with your jaded experiences and make light of their thoughts. Your statement that "No one is going to work hard and enjoy what they are doing if there is not proper compensation..." is an unfair generalization. However, perhaps it's not a bad jumping off point. Let's define "proper compensation." That is going to mean different things to different people. Some are going to want higher compensation to off-set the difficulty of their job and some can be happier with less as long as they find adequate intrinsic enjoyment out of what they are doing. Again, the balance can be different, depending on the individual.

Most days, I enjoy what I am doing, and while it's not much, I am making enough on my scholarship stipend to keep me satisfied at the moment. I'm not saying it's always going to be like this, but I feel like I can separate money from job satisfaction.

 

[womp]

I am right there with you MissIrish. I too am a non-trad. and have been making less than $40K a year with a bachelors and masters in microbiology and am living quite well. I honestly would be more than happy to go through medical school with less loans and come out of residency making 50-80K a year, loving my career.... than making >200K and be stuck with 200K+ in loans and having to deal with a ton of political B.S. when it comes to treating patients.

In fact, I hope the salaries for all physicians decreases tremendously. Get rid of the people that do it simply to make a buck, and get people in there that want to be there to help people.

You've got to be kidding me. Brain-dead post of the year at SDN. 👎

You are proposing that doctors make less money than entry-level nurses with an associate degree, make less than the insurance claims agent, and make less than the front desk lady scheduling your appointments.

I'm sure high school dropouts and people with MCATs sub-15 want to help people too. Maybe they should all be doctors too.

 

[womp]

Your kidding me, right? Take yourself off your little pedestal for a minute and think about what you just wrote. Your saying that someone's income correlates to their level of intelligence and people who are intelligent are more likely to go after jobs that pay more? By that logic, people with PhDs in social work and the sciences, who on average gross 40-50K a year, are complete idiots compared to the future you, oh and the future you is an idiot compared to football/hockey players that gross in the millions.

Most of the successful (as in providing real contribution) PhD's in the sciences make a lot more money than 40-50k, think 6 figures instead. Some also go into venture startups and become millionaires. It's pretty easy to get into PhD programs (at least the unfunded ones), but you still have to be in demand once you get out to generate a decent wage. If you did bullcrap, esoteric or trivial dissertations for your PhD, why should you be paid as much as doctors and engineers who are actually economically productive and demanded? Doctors have a lot of demand for their services, why should they be paid as much as someone who did their dissertation on the punctuation of Goethe or whose PhD was essentially an extended masters and has no additional value? This is a free country with a capitalistic framework where the laws of supply and demand apply. And yes, in such a environment you would be an idiot to do a worthless PhD topic while still expecting six figure salaries.

Furthermore, you should learn the concepts of probability, risk and reward. If you knew them, you wouldn't be making that idiotic football/hockey analogy. No one ever argued that book smart people would necessarily make a lot of money, but generally smart people understand the incentives and the odds of getting them and what they must do better than idiots. Many choose to ignore it, but that doesn't mean others are evil, greedy bastards and "less pure" than you. Remember that high school ***** who thought he would be the next Eminem? Do you want someone like that to be your doctor?

 

[USArmyDoc]

Yeah, the process is most certainly difficult and sometimes it brings you to your knees. It's also very long and expensive. You have to jump through seemingly endless hoops and rarely do you feel the pressure let up. You get abused, yelled at, and scutted out. Often, you feel like you never really know anything, and when you do, you have to move on to the next level where you don't know anything again. At any level, there always seems like there's more work to be done and not enough time to do it. I can't even remember the last time I had a truly good night's sleep. Some patient's talk to much, some give you a hard time, and some are just plain crazy. Your attendings pimp you, and you feel like the lowest scum of the Earth. Welcome to life! I've had worse situations (and jobs) in my life, for sure.

Yeah, we get it. It's hard. Sometimes it's so difficult that you feel like quiting. ****, I must have felt that way half a dozen times. The pressure and craziness sometimes makes me get really down on myself, but I pick myself off of the floor and move on. That's what we all do.

For me the first two years of medical were pretty much a complete drag. I force-fed myself a lot of information and it definitely didn't go down easy. I kept waiting for this stuff to get more fun, but it really never did. While studying for Step 1 was perhaps one of the more challenging academic activities I've ever done, it was intellectually satisfying because the pieces of the puzzle were finally coming together.

Third year is a blast and a completely different experience than my first two years. It's a complete 180. I'm really having fun. Sure it's difficult and all, but I get to work with patients and that automatically makes it better. How could you not have a good time learn clinical medicine and being actually involved in your patient's care? It was what I was waiting for, enduring all the crap for, all those endless nights of studying. Yeah, I get pimped, have to deal with "office" politics, the occasional annoying patient, or the patient who won't shut up (or is just plain crazy). Yes, there are a lot of non-compliant patients and certainly there is a lot to do and learn. It's definitely exhausting. I go home after work and just crash on my couch after attempting to read a few pages in my medical text about what I saw that day. Some days, I don't connect with my patients and it feels like a harder day and I go home more worn out, but when I do connect with at least a few patients, it feels like a much more fulfilling day. Granted, I am currently rotating in a field I enjoy.

I don't know. It sounds like I am having a different experience than many of you. I agree that medical school is very difficult. I would never do this **** over again. It's too painful. However, I don't understand how you think it's so difficult that the intrinsic rewards of the job are not worth the effort you putting in. It's sufficient for me. I'm not saying I wouldn't enjoy being justly compensated. I'm not saying that adequate compensation isn't important. Obviously it's a necessity in our world. I'm just not as money hungry as I used to be when I was younger and I don't need it to make things worthwhile. I do want to make enough to do everything I want to do, though, so money is part of the package; it just isn't at the very top of my list. Goodness knows I don't want this to happen, but if it did, and I were to be paid less, I wouldn't be embittered by that, as long as I still enjoyed the intrinsic rewards.

Perhaps my thoughts and feelings will change in time, but right now, I don't see why you feel like you have to "punch" pre-meds in the face with your jaded experiences and make light of their thoughts. Your statement that "No one is going to work hard and enjoy what they are doing if there is not proper compensation..." is an unfair generalization. However, perhaps it's not a bad jumping off point. Let's define "proper compensation." That is going to mean different things to different people. Some are going to want higher compensation to off-set the difficulty of their job and some can be happier with less as long as they find adequate intrinsic enjoyment out of what they are doing. Again, the balance can be different, depending on the individual.

Most days, I enjoy what I am doing, and while it's not much, I am making enough on my scholarship stipend to keep me satisfied at the moment. I'm not saying it's always going to be like this, but I feel like I can separate money from job satisfaction.

\

I hear ya on the first bolded comment.

Regarding you accusation of "punching" premeds in the face, it is hard for them to understand all the work it takes to do this. For that reason, I find it to be a rediculous statement from some of them that "regardless of what happens my desire to help people will not change." Its really not only about "helping people." Yes, its a big part of medicine. However, "helping people" will just not be enough when you are on call for 30 hours and listening to patients bitch about having an MI but are eating a cheeseburger as they speak to you. Medicine is a job just like any other job. You go to work everyday to make a difference but you also go to make money! Having been on the floors for a while now, if you speak to residents and doctors you lose the "passion" for medicine. I don't blame them! I watch them work like slaves yet they get treated like $hit from their patients and insurance companies.

You are into your 4th rotation. I am not sure which ones you have done but when you are rounding on your patients in the morning and you see a diabetic patient eating cake you feel jaded because we hear so much about "preventative medicine" and we will get paid by "quality not quantity." Yea well when you see 5 patients in a row who do not take their HTN meds then you start to wonder what the hell do they expect us to do.

If I remember correctly, you are in the military so you are receiving a stipend to live and rightfully so but we are not. It is easy to say all that when you actually have an "income" during medical school.

In summary, medicine is a job and a tough one. Jobs are used to make money.....medicine is no different.