Changing the System - Transparency in Admissons

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EsseQuamVideri

EsseQuamVideri

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So far, I've been pretty disappointed in the quality of data published on the medical school admissions process, even in the MSAR. It seems to be the norm, however, and becomes moot in the scheme things.

That is, until you see a shining example of what it could be: http://med.umich.edu/medschool/admissions/apply/profiles.html

1) Is there a reason for this lack of transparency in admissions?
2) Shouldn't we be advocating for better treatment in this grueling process?

I'd love to hear thoughts on why or why not medical school applicants deserve to be more informed and if anyone (LizzyM?) has an alternative opinion to offer in the debate.
 
Med schools like to be vague...

here's a humorous video though about affirmative action..

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWS_MDJSiEE[/YOUTUBE]


I like UMich's transparency as well. But truth be told, the adcoms I've spoken to say "Yes, now you and your application are at our mercy."

Diversity is the name of the game. I agree with including members of URMs, because the white guy isn't going to go help a clinic in the ghetto. What I don't agree with is that the African American guy who climbs the medical ladder and forgets where he came from. A sell out if you know what I mean. These people get up and out of the hood, and that's a good thing. But for them, it's all out of sight and out of mind.
 
EsseQuamVideri said:
So far, I've been pretty disappointed in the quality of data published on the medical school admissions process, even in the MSAR. It seems to be the norm, however, and becomes moot in the scheme things.

That is, until you see a shining example of what it could be: http://med.umich.edu/medschool/admissions/apply/profiles.html

1) Is there a reason for this lack of transparency in admissions?
2) Shouldn't we be advocating for better treatment in this grueling process?

I'd love to hear thoughts on why or why not medical school applicants deserve to be more informed and if anyone (LizzyM?) has an alternative opinion to offer in the debate.
Click to expand...

wow didn't realize how "name-heavy" Michigan was.
 
It would certainly be nice if the MSAR included matriculant data as well as accepted applicant data. It'd also be useful to have something along the lines of what the NRMP does where they rank the importance of certain qualifications and also attempt to quantify how important they are. I'm sure the reason that nothing of the sort exists is that it'd take a decent amount of extra work on the schools' and particularly on the AAMC's part. Obviously, they can only push the data so far since different adcoms will value different things and may be willing to make concessions to diversify the class, etc. That said, the AAMC definitely should up its game a bit and help us/you out some. It'd certainly be nice if they put out a good product instead of solely using (and enforcing) their monopoly to stiff everyone every year.

Also, here's the winner for WTF?! comment of the day, and we haven't even hit 8 AM yet.

I agree with including members of URMs, because the white guy isn't going to go help a clinic in the ghetto. What I don't agree with is that the African American guy who climbs the medical ladder and forgets where he came from. A sell out if you know what I mean. These people get up and out of the hood, and that's a good thing. But for them, it's all out of sight and out of mind.
Click to expand...
 
MilkmanAl said:
Also, here's the winner for WTF?! comment of the day, and we haven't even hit 8 AM yet.
Click to expand...

Do you need me to re-phrase it for you? Or bullet point it?
Adcoms hope URMs contribute back to their community in a positive manner. Instead, these URMs leave the community, and never look back on where they came from.
 
aSagacious said:
Source?
Click to expand...

Hahahah thanks aSag! Maybe I'm biased cuz I'm from Detroit. But most of my family are in medicine and this is the norm with most doctors from Detroit. This is based on what they tell me. But it's not hard to imagine how this happens.

The director of admissions at Wayne State however, he practiced correctional medicine. Working with prison inmates and their underserved needs. Now that's awesome. Cuz I don't know many people who'd want to help murderers and thieves.
 
CodeBlu said:
Do you need me to re-phrase it for you? Or bullet point it?
Adcoms hope URMs contribute back to their community in a positive manner. Instead, these URMs leave the community, and never look back on where they came from.
Click to expand...

So all URM's have to be required to practice in the communities they were raised in just because they are URM's? What about the foreign born URM's that train in America? What about URM's that weren't even born in the "ghetto" (as you passive-agressively insinuate that all URM's are born in places like this)? And all this because of a faulty assumption that adcoms "hope" that these people will go back to their "forsaken" communities to help in a positive manner...simply because of their race? Where is your source?

And you see nothing wrong with what you've said? 😕
 
CodeBlu said:
Hahahah thanks aSag!
Click to expand...
I like to keep 'em honest 😛

CodeBlu said:
Maybe I'm biased cuz I'm from Detroit. But most of my family are in medicine and this is the norm with most doctors from Detroit.
Click to expand...
Who could blame them? Detroit stinks (EL represent 😉).

CodeBlu said:
The director of admissions at Wayne State however, he practiced correctional medicine. Working with prison inmates and their underserved needs. Now that's awesome. Cuz I don't know many people who'd want to help murderers and thieves.
Click to expand...
While that is admirable, I don't think that this is a reasonable expectation for most URMs that are admitted to med schools.

As was mentioned in a prior AA flame war, I think we came to the consensus that it was more for patients who wanted a doc similar to themselves.
 
Gigantron said:
So all URM's have to be required to practice in the communities they were raised in just because they are URM's? What about the foreign born URM's that train in America? What about URM's that weren't even born in the "ghetto" (as you passive-agressively insinuate that all URM's are born in places like this)?

And you see nothing wrong with what you've said? 😕
Click to expand...

NO! This is NOT what I am saying. Forget it. It's pointless to argue about it.
Thread back on topic, transparency in admissions.
 
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MilkmanAl said:
It would certainly be nice if the MSAR included matriculant data as well as accepted applicant data. It'd also be useful to have something along the lines of what the NRMP does where they rank the importance of certain qualifications and also attempt to quantify how important they are. I'm sure the reason that nothing of the sort exists is that it'd take a decent amount of extra work on the schools' and particularly on the AAMC's part. Obviously, they can only push the data so far since different adcoms will value different things and may be willing to make concessions to diversify the class, etc. That said, the AAMC definitely should up its game a bit and help us/you out some. It'd certainly be nice if they put out a good product instead of solely using (and enforcing) their monopoly to stiff everyone every year.

Also, here's the winner for WTF?! comment of the day, and we haven't even hit 8 AM yet.
Click to expand...

It's 3PM where I am and I've been on SDN for more than 45 minutes. Pleeeeennty of WTF going on.

As for the affirmative action plug, I think the analogy is a little short-sighted. These areas (countries too) have the brain drain because there isn't a threshold bypassed for standard of living. I came from a ethnically homogenous poor farming community. I'm sure as hell not moving back there to practice but that doesn't mean I'm not supporting it in other ways.
 
aSagacious said:
As was mentioned in a prior AA flame war, I think we came to the consensus that it was more for patients who wanted a doc similar to themselves.
Click to expand...

Riiight... now tell that to my uncle's patients in the ED. My uncle is working up an African American male for chest pain. He's got a resident with him, and my uncle leaves the resident to finish some stuff up. Uncle goes to do some paper work and comes back to check on the patient after 15 minutes.

"Doctor can I speak to you alone?"

"Sure, what's up?"

"I don't want the resident doctor anywhere near me?"

"May I ask why sir? Did he behave inappropriately?"

"No, he's black, I want the white doctor"


Racism is racism. No matter which way you slice it.
 
CodeBlu said:
Racism is racism. No matter which way you slice it.
Click to expand...

Agreed (I'm not an advocate). Also described in the same prior AA flame war was the consensus that AA should be based on socioeconomic status rather than ethnicity.

Here's the thought behind AA:
Gratz v. Bollinger, 2003
The U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the University of Michigan's undergraduate admissions system, which granted extra "points" to minorities based on race, and which determined admissions status based on cumulative points, was unconstitutional because it is too mechanical and does not appear to consider the individual's actual contribution to the educational environment.
An attorney who filed an amicus brief on behalf of Pennsylvania legislators and former legislators in Grutter v. Bollinger, Rep. Mark B. Cohen of Philadelphia, said that "The cumulative effect of the Bakke, Grutter, and Bollinger cases is that no one has a legal right to have any demographic characteristic they possess be considered a favorable point on their behalf, but an employer has a right to take into account the goals of the organization and the interests of American society in making decisions. This is a moderate, inclusive position that ably balances the various legal interests involved."

Again, I'm not advocating the position, just voicing the logic behind the legislation.
 
aSagacious said:
Agreed (I'm not an advocate). Also described in the same prior AA flame war was the consensus that AA should be based on socioeconomic status rather than ethnicity.

Here's the thought behind AA:
Gratz v. Bollinger, 2003
The U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the University of Michigan's undergraduate admissions system, which granted extra "points" to minorities based on race, and which determined admissions status based on cumulative points, was unconstitutional because it is too mechanical and does not appear to consider the individual's actual contribution to the educational environment.
An attorney who filed an amicus brief on behalf of Pennsylvania legislators and former legislators in Grutter v. Bollinger, Rep. Mark B. Cohen of Philadelphia, said that "The cumulative effect of the Bakke, Grutter, and Bollinger cases is that no one has a legal right to have any demographic characteristic they possess be considered a favorable point on their behalf, but an employer has a right to take into account the goals of the organization and the interests of American society in making decisions. This is a moderate, inclusive position that ably balances the various legal interests involved."

Again, I'm not advocating the position, just voicing the logic behind the legislation.
Click to expand...
zlxdht.jpg
 
CodeBlu said:
Med schools like to be vague...

here's a humorous video though about affirmative action..

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWS_MDJSiEE[/YOUTUBE]


I like UMich's transparency as well. But truth be told, the adcoms I've spoken to say "Yes, now you and your application are at our mercy."

Diversity is the name of the game. I agree with including members of URMs, because the white guy isn't going to go help a clinic in the ghetto. What I don't agree with is that the African American guy who climbs the medical ladder and forgets where he came from. A sell out if you know what I mean. These people get up and out of the hood, and that's a good thing. But for them, it's all out of sight and out of mind.
Click to expand...

Why? Why can't they do that if they want? It's out of sight and out of mind for most people period. Your comment could be taken as a bit racist. I'm interested in your reply to this, not because I want to argue but because maybe I'm missing a way to spin this into something not ignorant.

For the record, I have a feeling you're not as ignorant as that comment made you seem, but you have to agree it was a very stupid comment.
 
Last edited:
CodeBlu said:
Do you need me to re-phrase it for you? Or bullet point it?
Adcoms hope URMs contribute back to their community in a positive manner. Instead, these URMs leave the community, and never look back on where they came from.
Click to expand...

You do realize that black people that get into med school never made any promises about where they would work. They don't have to. They have the right to do whatever the hell they want with their MD without having to feel guilty about it. Just like you don't have to work in some getto neither do they.
 
ilton said:
Why? Why can't they do that if they want? It's out of sight and out of mind for most people period. Your comment could be taken as a bit racist. I'm interested in your reply to this, not because I want to argue but because maybe I'm missing a way to spin this into something not ignorant.
Click to expand...

Sure they can do it, and they do do it. But, I thought the goal of increasing URMs in medicine was to ENRICH the underserved communities.

From: http://www.amsa.org/AMSA/Homepage/about/priorities/diversity.aspx

"Having a diverse physician workforce is a critical component in making health care available to those who need it most. The lack of diversity of medical students, coupled with ineffective cultural competency education, continues to produce training and treatment environments that are biased, intolerant and contributory to health disparities.
Racial and ethnic minorities comprise 26% of the total population of the United States, yet only roughly 6% of practicing physicians are Latino, African American and Native American.*

(This is why URMs are important)

Under-represented minority (URM) faculty account for only about 4% of U.S. medical school faculty members, and approximately 20% of URM faculty is located at six schools-Howard University, Meharry Medical College, Morehouse School of Medicine, and the three Puerto Rican medical schools.*
Black physicians were found to practice in areas where the proportion of Black residents was nearly five times as high as where other physicians practice. Likewise, Hispanic physicians worked in communities with twice the proportion of Hispanic residents when compared to their non-Hispanic colleagues.*

(Also why URMs are extremely important.)

Nearly half of patients seen by African American physicians and one-third of patients seen by Asian and Pacific Islander and Hispanic physicians are Medicaid or uninsured patients.*
URM physicians are also more likely than their non-minority counterparts to conduct research to help reduce racial disparities in health care.*"

I am not ignorant in this matter at all. So don't claim superiority. It's my opinion. I live this every day at work and in and around Detroit.
 
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ilton said:
Why? Why can't they do that if they want? It's out of sight and out of mind for most people period. Your comment could be taken as a bit racist. I'm interested in your reply to this, not because I want to argue but because maybe I'm missing a way to spin this into something not ignorant.
Click to expand...

Then maybe URM advantage should be eliminated. The purpose of providing an easier chance of admission was in the hopes of the URM going back to their community to reach out to these underserved group of people. But, if the original purpose has been lost, then there is no reason to continue giving this aid and admission should be based solely on merits.
 
aSagacious said:
Andersen, I don't usually say this but... you are going to be a terrible doctor
Click to expand...

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CodeBlu said:
Sure they can do it, and they do do it. But, I thought the goal of increasing URMs in medicine was to ENRICH the underserved communities.

From: http://www.amsa.org/AMSA/Homepage/about/priorities/diversity.aspx

"Having a diverse physician workforce is a critical component in making health care available to those who need it most. The lack of diversity of medical students, coupled with ineffective cultural competency education, continues to produce training and treatment environments that are biased, intolerant and contributory to health disparities.
Racial and ethnic minorities comprise 26% of the total population of the United States, yet only roughly 6% of practicing physicians are Latino, African American and Native American.*

(This is why URMs are important)

Under-represented minority (URM) faculty account for only about 4% of U.S. medical school faculty members, and approximately 20% of URM faculty is located at six schools-Howard University, Meharry Medical College, Morehouse School of Medicine, and the three Puerto Rican medical schools.*
Black physicians were found to practice in areas where the proportion of Black residents was nearly five times as high as where other physicians practice. Likewise, Hispanic physicians worked in communities with twice the proportion of Hispanic residents when compared to their non-Hispanic colleagues.*

(Also why URMs are extremely important.)

Nearly half of patients seen by African American physicians and one-third of patients seen by Asian and Pacific Islander and Hispanic physicians are Medicaid or uninsured patients.*
URM physicians are also more likely than their non-minority counterparts to conduct research to help reduce racial disparities in health care.*"

I am not ignorant in this matter at all. So don't claim superiority. It's my opinion. I live this every day at work and in and around Detroit.
Click to expand...


I'm not disagreeing with you on the goals of recruiting URMs. But to say that URMs have to do as med schools hope is very stupid because they don't. By the way, I retract my previous statement you are as ignorant as you seem.
 
ilton said:
I'm not disagreeing with you on the goals of recruiting URMs. But to say that URMs have to do as med schools hope is very stupid because they don't. By the way, I retract my previous statement you are as ignorant as you seem.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Duly noted. You've clearly contributed a lot to the discussion.

Oh and... I did not say they have to do as med schools hope. But then why admit them under lax admissions standards?
 
CodeBlu said:
Thanks. Duly noted. You've clearly contributed a lot to the discussion.
Click to expand...

We have a shortage of primary care doctors. Do med students have to choose primary care? No. Would it help if they did? Yes.

It's similar to URMs working with underserved communities. They could, and it would be great. But they don't have to and should not feel obligated simply because they themselves are minorities. I have no idea how you don't think your comment is stupid. White people can as easily work in underserved areas, some do, the majority don't. That's their choice.
 
CodeBlu said:
Med schools like to be vague...

here's a humorous video though about affirmative action..

[YOUTUBE]hWS_MDJSiEE[/YOUTUBE]


I like UMich's transparency as well. But truth be told, the adcoms I've spoken to say "Yes, now you and your application are at our mercy."

Diversity is the name of the game. I agree with including members of URMs, because the white guy isn't going to go help a clinic in the ghetto. What I don't agree with is that the African American guy who climbs the medical ladder and forgets where he came from. A sell out if you know what I mean. These people get up and out of the hood, and that's a good thing. But for them, it's all out of sight and out of mind.
Click to expand...

lol, i love that video ^^^. There needs to be mystery to prevent lawsuits. Lets get off this URM topic, it gets ugly.
 
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CodeBlu said:
Thanks. Duly noted. You've clearly contributed a lot to the discussion.

Oh and... I did not say they have to do as med schools hope. But then why admit them under lax admissions standards?
Click to expand...

Not every minority is admitted under lax admission standards. You do realize that right? Some are, but not nearly all. For those that actually grew up in ghettos, perhaps it's because growing up in such environment and still being qualified (which doesn't mean a 35+, 4.00), is admirable.
 
aSagacious said:
We tried anyway 🙂
Click to expand...

I'll try also.

There should definitely be more transparency in this process. My three biggest concerns:
- Schools should take a little more consideration into who they give secondaries. If you don't meet their (unstated) cutoffs, they shouldn't be taking your money. (VCU is awesome about their secondary.)
- Many schools do calculations of some sort to determine if you'll be invited to interview or if you'll be accepted post-interview. Depending on the school, these calculations will weigh more heavily on certain factors. Why is it such a secret what each schools thinks is important in an applicant? People on SDN always say to save money by only applying to schools where you are a fit, but it seems impossible to determine where I'll be a good fit if schools aren't going to tell me what they're looking for.
- Ranked waitlists where they refuse to tell you your rank. Give me a break.
 
rossbossss said:
lol, i love that video ^^^. There needs to be mystery to prevent lawsuits.
Click to expand...

Here's the thought behind AA:
Gratz v. Bollinger, 2003
The U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the University of Michigan's undergraduate admissions system, which granted extra "points" to minorities based on race, and which determined admissions status based on cumulative points, was unconstitutional because it is too mechanical and does not appear to consider the individual's actual contribution to the educational environment.
An attorney who filed an amicus brief on behalf of Pennsylvania legislators and former legislators in Grutter v. Bollinger, Rep. Mark B. Cohen of Philadelphia, said that "The cumulative effect of the Bakke, Grutter, and Bollinger cases is that no one has a legal right to have any demographic characteristic they possess be considered a favorable point on their behalf, but an employer has a right to take into account the goals of the organization and the interests of American society in making decisions. This is a moderate, inclusive position that ably balances the various legal interests involved."

Basically... CYA (cover your anatomical location that you defecate through)
 
CodeBlu said:
Med schools like to be vague...

here's a humorous video though about affirmative action..

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWS_MDJSiEE[/YOUTUBE]


I like UMich's transparency as well. But truth be told, the adcoms I've spoken to say "Yes, now you and your application are at our mercy."

Diversity is the name of the game. I agree with including members of URMs, because the white guy isn't going to go help a clinic in the ghetto. What I don't agree with is that the African American guy who climbs the medical ladder and forgets where he came from. A sell out if you know what I mean. These people get up and out of the hood, and that's a good thing. But for them, it's all out of sight and out of mind.
Click to expand...

So if URMs don't work in the "ghetto," they shouldn't receive the benefits of URM status?

Wow. Good thing as a white man I have the benefit of working wherever I want.
 
RookTookIt said:
I'll try also.

There should definitely be more transparency in this process. My three biggest concerns:
- Schools should take a little more consideration into who they give secondaries. If you don't meet their (unstated) cutoffs, they shouldn't be taking your money. (VCU is awesome about their secondary.)
- Many schools do calculations of some sort to determine if you'll be invited to interview or if you'll be accepted post-interview. Depending on the school, these calculations will weigh more heavily on certain factors. Why is it such a secret what each schools thinks is important in an applicant? People on SDN always say to save money by only applying to schools where you are a fit, but it seems impossible to determine where I'll be a good fit if schools aren't going to tell me what they're looking for.
- Ranked waitlists where they refuse to tell you your rank. Give me a break.
Click to expand...

I hate this and I haven't been subjected to it yet.
 
CodeBlu said:
I hate this and I haven't been subjected to it yet.
Click to expand...

Haha, yeah what is the purpose of this? If they've already done the work, why keep the information undisclosed? Are they worried that the applicants toward the bottom will withdraw and they'll be left with an unfilled class? (unlikely)
 
NickNaylor said:
So if URMs don't work in the "ghetto," they shouldn't receive the benefits of URM status?

Wow. Good thing as a white man I have the benefit of working wherever I want.
Click to expand...

I think we agree. Thank you. I was beginning to think I was the only one with half a brain on this thread.
 
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aSagacious said:
Haha, yeah what is the purpose of this? If they've already done the work, why keep the information undisclosed? Are they worried that the applicants toward the bottom will withdraw and they'll be left with an unfilled class? (unlikely)
Click to expand...

I think that's precisely the issue. I wouldn't stay on Harvard's waitlist if I was #72. If you make your waitlist known, your more qualified applicants are going to take offers elsewhere instead of hanging on, thereby diminishing the schools "fallback" applicants (or at least, the perceived calibre of the pile).
 
EsseQuamVideri said:
I think that's precisely the issue. I wouldn't stay on Harvard's waitlist if I was #72. If you make your waitlist known, your more qualified applicants are going to take offers elsewhere instead of hanging on, thereby diminishing the schools "fallback" applicants (or at least, the perceived calibre of the pile).
Click to expand...

#72 on harvards waitlist???

I'd like to be there. Why not?? Most waitlists have considerable movement.
 
ilton said:
I was just trying to not single out codeblue anymore that I already have. Lol
Click to expand...

There's no E on the end.... just saying :laugh:

Single me out, doesn't really bother me. I'd rather have something to discuss than pretend that the world is all sunflowers and fairies.
 
CodeBlu said:
#72 on harvards waitlist???

I'd like to be there. Why not?? Most waitlists have considerable movement.
Click to expand...

I don't think many have that much turnover after considering their overacceptances, but who knows.
 
aSagacious said:
That's true... but I'd be hard-pressed to find 72 individuals across the US who would give up their Harvard acceptance.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't. Definitely not.

Ranked waitlists are annoying. I know of a few dental schools that tell you your rank though. I also have heard of some schools in Canada telling you if you are in their traditionally accepted range on the waitlist. That could also be advantageous.
 
The thing I hate the most:

1 - Someone starts a very promising thread.
2 - A responder derails it and diverts it to discussing a non-productive and controversial topic like affirmative action.
3 - Everyone else starts arguing and debating about affirmative action
4 - A beautiful thread is destroyed.

Happens all the time! All the time!
 
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