Cheated on attendance

[22031 Alum]

I just don't see how the student was lying.

Credit for attendance is contingent upon being present when attendance is checked.

Student is present for class but not present when attendance is checked.

Student fabricates evidence that they were present when attendance was checked.

I don't see how you don't see how that is a lie.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Salt Salt]

Yes.

I'm going to need more than a yes. Do you have a copy of the class syllabus spelling out exactly the protocol for how attendance should be represented? Or anything more than a gut impression of the OP's character?

I'm just saying that I don't think I ever had a professor who would have considered this even "technically" cheating. And they would have never given me an F.

 

[Salt Salt]

Credit for attendance is contingent upon being present when attendance is checked.

Student is present for class but not present when attendance is checked.

Student fabricates evidence that they were present when attendance was checked.

I don't see how you don't see how that is a lie.

Simple: the OP never said their prof defined "attending" as "being present for the exact 30 seconds when attendance was checked." As far as I can tell, that's just an assumption that people on this forum made.

 

[gyngyn]

Simple: the OP never said their prof defined "attending" as "being present for the exact 30 seconds when attendance was checked." As far as I can tell, that's just an assumption that people on this forum made.

We are using the OP's own assessment of his behavior.
His concern is the harm to his application from what he perceives as the harshness of his punishment.
We are merely noting that similar lapses will result in much more serious repercussions in this profession.

How about the harm OP caused to the person who falsified the attendance/presence?

 

[Salt Salt]

We are using the OP's own assessment of his behavior.
His concern is the harm to his application from what he perceives as the harshness of his punishment.
We are merely noting that similar lapses will result in much more serious repercussions in this profession.

I can't help but agree with him, even then. The punishment simply doesn't fit the crime, in my judgment.

Still, I suppose that's why I like SDN: I'm glad to see the opinions and judgments of adcoms/working professionals like yourself.

 

[Salt Salt]

How about the harm OP caused to the person who falsified the attendance?

But what I'm trying to say is that the OP DIDN'T falsify his/her attendance. They attended!

 

[gyngyn]

But what I'm trying to say is that the OP DIDN'T falsify his/her attendance. They attended!

The conditions of attendance were not met. He asked his friend to click him in. His friend was harmed by this incident if he was identified.
I saw no remorse for the harm to others in OP's statement.

 

[sephora89]

The conditions of attendance were not met. He asked his friend to click him in. His friend was harmed by this incident if he was identified.
I saw no remorse for this in OP's statement.

His friend shouldn't have agreed to it in the first place.

 

[gyngyn]

His friend shouldn't have agreed to it in the first place.

Of course not, but for OP he would not have been harmed. He could have had more time to mature (or grow a spine).

 

[Salt Salt]

He asked his friend to click him in. His friend was harmed by this incident if he was identified.
I saw no remorse for this in OP's statement.

We need to stop making assumptions about the situation. Two assumptions were made here:

1. That OP's friend befell punishment for this (and yes, I would assume that, rationally, any professor who would fail a student for simply reporting attendance despite actually being in the bathroom would also give his/her friend an F... but I also wouldn't expect this prof to behave in a 100% rational way).

2. That the OP is unconcerned about friend just because they didn't mention them here.

 

[gyngyn]

We need to stop making assumptions about the situation. Two assumptions were made here:

1. That OP's friend befell punishment for this (and yes, I would assume that, rationally, any professor who would fail a student for simply reporting attendance despite actually being in the bathroom would also give his/her friend an F... but I also wouldn't expect this prof to behave in a 100% rational way).

2. That the OP is unconcerned about friend just because they didn't mention them here.

I can only report on what is presented.

 

[Salt Salt]

The conditions of attendance were not met.

But the student attended! What else were the conditions for attendance?

And don't say "being present during the exact minute of the attendance check", because we have no evidence for this. In fact, we have evidence against it: according to OP, the prof was only mad because he/she thought OP had been skipping class entirely, and doing so regularly.

 

[ZedsDed]

You know, I sometimes feel that I haven't really changed all that much as a person since my college days. I don't feel that different after all...

Then I read a string of pre-meds trying to justify cheating/dishonesty as long as it's small, or doesn't affect anyone, or the policy is dumb in the first place, etc. And I think, "Maybe I am a real grownup."

I'm a little surprised how oblivious AdCom members are to the mindset of most premeds. In my experience, about 2/3 of the premed population consists of ambitious box-checkers who are exponentially more concerned with the prestige of being a doctor than with ethics. I'm not saying this applies to anyone in here, and I do think most of them grow out of it, but yeah...

 

[ZedsDed]

I'm going to need more than a yes. Do you have a copy of the class syllabus spelling out exactly the protocol for how attendance should be represented? Or anything more than a gut impression of the OP's character?

I'm just saying that I don't think I ever had a professor who would have considered this even "technically" cheating. And they would have never given me an F.

Most of the Unis in my state would consider this cheating.

 

[Goro]

What part of "you can't have anyone else click your clicker for you to pretend you're attending the class and/or when attendance is taken" don't you understand???

Go re-read Mimelim's posts in this thread. And stop trying to play Perry Mason; you're not good at it.

But the student attended! What else were the conditions for attendance?

And don't say "being present during the exact minute of the attendance check", because we have no evidence for this. In fact, we have evidence against it: according to OP, the prof was only mad because he/she thought OP had been skipping class entirely, and doing so regularly.

Zeds, who do you think DOESN'T get into med school????

'm a little surprised how oblivious AdCom members are to the mindset of most premeds. In my experience, about 2/3 of the premed population consists of ambitious box-checkers who are exponentially more concerned with the prestige of being a doctor than with ethics. I'm not saying this applies to anyone in here, and I do think most of them grow out of it, but yeah...

 

[Salt Salt]

What part of "you can't have anyone else click your clicker for you to pretend you're attending the class and/or when attendance is taken" don't you understand???

Go re-read Mimelim's posts in this thread. And stop trying to play Perry Mason; you're not good at it.

But OP never said that was the class rules! Correct me if I'm wrong but they never even mentioned the clicker (although I, too, assume that was the case). The point is that our judgment of OP rests upon too many assumptions for me to feel comfortable with our indictment of him/her.

And if I had any idea who Perry Mason was, I might dispute that

 

[22031 Alum]

And don't say "being present during the exact minute of the attendance check", because we have no evidence for this.

I appreciate your dedication to a "logical" breakdown, but the evidence of the policy being "be there during the check" is the simple fact that OP got punished for not being present for the check, and faking it.

I'm a little surprised how oblivious AdCom members are to the mindset of most premeds.

I've been spoiled by working with MS3's, MS4's, and residents, all of whom have journeyed farther into adulthood and (mostly) grasped such lessons as "telling not-the-truth is lying," "actions have consequences," and "sometimes you have to follow rules that everyone knows are stupid."

 

[You're My Boy Blue]

And if I had any idea who Perry Mason was, I might dispute that

A lawyer on an (old) tv show

Edit: apparently novels as well

 

[Salt Salt]

I appreciate your dedication to a "logical" breakdown, but the evidence of the policy being "be there during the check" is the simple fact that OP got punished for not being present for the check, and faking it.

But as the OP said, the professor was under the impression that the OP had been regularly skipping the entire class. Therefore it doesn't seem that the professor was upset that the student had merely reported attendance despite "not being present during the check". The honor board recognized that the OP was only temporarily not in class and encouraged the professor not to punish the student so harshly.

 

[Goro]

Pay attention to the OP's own words:

I just finished my freshman year at a top 25 undergrad. My class (lecture style, ~350 students) has an attendance system that counts as part of the final grade (about 2% of it). I had someone do it for me while I was in the bathroom because I thought I deserved points for the day. I have no idea why I did it when I SHOULD HAVE JUST HELD IT AND WAITED FOR CLASS TO BE OVER. The professor caught me and didn't believe my bathroom story and accused me of doing it the whole semester and filed for an F in the class. Even though the honor board found evidence that this in fact was a one time thing and I really was in the bathroom, all they could do was advise the professor about what they believe happened and ask to reduce my sentence, but the professor refused.

1) OP violated the rules and admits to doing so.
2) OP was caught
3) The honor board only found that the professor's assertion that OP was doing this chronically was untrue. They did NOT say OP didn't cheat on having someone else use the clicker in OP's place.

I'm worried about you, Salty. Have you taken the MCAT yet? If not, be extra careful on the VR section. Good reading comprehension is required for medical students.

But OP never said that was the class rules! Correct me if I'm wrong but they never even mentioned the clicker (although I, too, assume that was the case). The point is that our judgment of OP rests upon too many assumptions for me to feel comfortable with our indictment of him/her.

And if I had any idea who Perry Mason was, I might dispute that

Gyngyn will appreciate the reference.

A lawyer on an (old) tv show

Edit: apparently novels as well

 

[gyngyn]

Gyngyn will appreciate the reference.

Loved that show.

 

[Salt Salt]

I'm worried about you, Salty. Have you taken the MCAT yet? If not, be extra careful on the VR section. Good reading comprehension is required for medical students.

No need to worry about me. I literally tutor VR

In any case, I think I better call it quits for tonight. Truth be told, I'm procrastinating right now; plus, I don't like when things get personal. Good points were made by all, and best of luck to OP as he/she tries to make things right (whatever that might entail).

 

[ayylmao]

No need to worry about me. I literally tutor VR

In any case, I think I better call it quits for tonight. Truth be told, I'm procrastinating right now; plus, I don't like when things get personal. Good points were made by all, and best of luck to OP as he/she tries to make things right (whatever that might entail).

kek, no truer words.

 

[efle]

I mean the kinds of students that want to ditch class or skip homework or halfass important exams (edit: all through highschool) don't go to Top 25s. That you'd need an attendance policy to motivate good student behaviors there is totally bizarre to me. Do they also give stickers to students that turn in homework on time for a week?

ITT: People totally miss the point and think this is an issue concerning OPs attendance and not that he asked his friend to violate the rules they agreed to follow

 

[22031 Alum]

I mean the kinds of students that want to ditch class or skip homework or halfass important exams don't go to Top 25s.

Hilarious. I did all of the above at my Top 20 undergrad, and knew plenty of others who did as well. Your commitment to putting Top 25s and their students on a pedestal is admirable. I eagerly await the day you interact with a broader range of people and realize that really, you and everybody else were just kids at school- some who happened to catch on to topics more quickly, or perform better on standardized tests, than others. There's not "Top 25" magic.

 

[efle]

Hilarious. I did all of the above at my Top 20 undergrad, and knew plenty of others who did as well. Your commitment to putting Top 25s and their students on a pedestal is admirable. I eagerly await the day you interact with a broader range of people and realize that really, you and everybody else were just kids at school- some who happened to catch on to topics more quickly, or perform better on standardized tests, than others. There's not "Top 25" magic.

They don't do it in high school where it leads to truancy issues and hurts your grades to do things like ditch and never do assignments.

In college totally doesn't apply. I've done it myself too. But that's because I'm not required to attend anything, they don't give credit for effort / there is no mandatory homework. I don't really believe you got into MD school half-assing the MCAT though. Even the brightest people if they never studied at all in prereqs or for the test would not score well enough.

 

[efle]

HOLY **** @Goro HAS A NEW AVATAR

 

[Banco]

They don't do it in high school where it leads to truancy issues and hurts your grades to do things like ditch and never do assignments.

In college totally doesn't apply. I've done it myself too. But that's because I'm not required to attend anything, they don't give credit for effort / there is no mandatory homework. I don't really believe you got into MD school half-assing the MCAT though. Even the brightest people if they never studied at all in prereqs or for the test would not score well enough.

Kids who consistently do that stuff in HS don't usually make it to any decent college, much less top 25.

 

[efle]

Kids who consistently do that stuff in HS don't usually make it to any decent college, much less top 25.

Naw I bet 22031 attended a total of 12 days in high school and never took the SAT but ended up at Princeton

 

[deleted393595]

Hilarious. I did all of the above at my Top 20 undergrad, and knew plenty of others who did as well. Your commitment to putting Top 25s and their students on a pedestal is admirable. I eagerly await the day you interact with a broader range of people and realize that really, you and everybody else were just kids at school- some who happened to catch on to topics more quickly, or perform better on standardized tests, than others. There's not "Top 25" magic.

Also, I know a lot of kids at my state school who would whoop the butts of kids at Top 5 schools. In fact, one of my friends at my state school gets paid to tutor a bunch of kids at Yale

 

[md-2020]

Kids who consistently do that stuff in HS don't usually make it to any decent college, much less top 25.

I got into a Top 5-15 school w/ a 3.3 HS GPA after skipping lots of class/hw.

Made up for it with sports and SAT though.

Then I got my **** together in undergrad.

 

[22031 Alum]

Naw I bet 22031 attended a total of 12 days in high school and never took the SAT but ended up at Princeton

So, nobody was talking about behavior in high school before, not even you. The message from the post I quoted was pretty clearly that attendance policies in college are ridiculous because kids at an esteemed Top 25 school are so amazing and motivated that they are above the need for such things. But to help you save face, let's pretend that you were totally talking about high school habits.

I skipped my fair share of classes and half-assed more than my fair share of assignments/tests-- pretty much did the bare minimum necessary because I knew I was pretty darn smart and could get away with it. That attitude almost did me in once I got to college and became a much smaller fish in a big pond. But it was a top school and I still knew I was the ****, just not at the top anymore. Then I got to med school and began to get my ass kicked regularly by kids who not only went to state schools, but directional state schools!! How was it possible?? Could it be that one's undergraduate background wasn't an instant marker of their intellectual ability?? Could it be that someone who went to a lesser school could be more hard-working, or just plain smarter than I was?? By the time I got to residency and was consistently outperformed by graduates of (gasp!) state medical schools, I had fully realized that maybe the name brand wasn't everything.

I survived the ego hit, and you will too someday. Good luck!!

 

[md-2020]

Then I got to med school and began to get my ass kicked regularly by kids who not only went to state schools, but directional state schools!!

"Directional state schools." Lmfao

My new favorite terminology.

 

[efle]

I got into a Top 5-15 school w/ a 3.3 HS GPA after skipping lots of class/hw.

Made up for it with sports and SAT though.

Then I got my **** together in undergrad.

How did you like Penn?

So, nobody was talking about behavior in high school before, not even you. The message from the post I quoted was pretty clearly that attendance policies in college are ridiculous because kids at an esteemed Top 25 school are so amazing and motivated that they are above the need for such things. But to help you save face, let's pretend that you were totally talking about high school habits.

I skipped my fair share of classes and half-assed more than my fair share of assignments/tests-- pretty much did the bare minimum necessary because I knew I was pretty darn smart and could get away with it. That attitude almost did me in once I got to college and became a much smaller fish in a big pond. But it was a top school and I still knew I was the ****, just not at the top anymore. Then I got to med school and began to get my ass kicked regularly by kids who not only went to state schools, but directional state schools!! How was it possible?? Could it be that one's undergraduate background wasn't an instant marker of their intellectual ability?? Could it be that someone who went to a lesser school could be more hard-working, or just plain smarter than I was?? By the time I got to residency and was consistently outperformed by graduates of (gasp!) state medical schools, I had fully realized that maybe the name brand wasn't everything.

I survived the ego hit, and you will too someday. Good luck!!

I was talking about high school. The reason it makes no sense to have attendance in a good college is because to get in, you have to be at least decent as a high school student. The students who ditch lots of class and never do their assignments in high school don't go into the Ivy League. It's a filter preventing the type of students that need an attendance policy in place to learn anything from being at your college. But clearly you have an ax to grind about my having a high opinion of students at good colleges, just address that directly instead of trying to put words in my mouth / passive-aggressive snarkiness! Perhaps you can convince me that someone with a 4.0 at MIT doesn't have to be intelligent after all

 

[ZedsDed]

So, nobody was talking about behavior in high school before, not even you. The message from the post I quoted was pretty clearly that attendance policies in college are ridiculous because kids at an esteemed Top 25 school are so amazing and motivated that they are above the need for such things. But to help you save face, let's pretend that you were totally talking about high school habits.

I skipped my fair share of classes and half-assed more than my fair share of assignments/tests-- pretty much did the bare minimum necessary because I knew I was pretty darn smart and could get away with it. That attitude almost did me in once I got to college and became a much smaller fish in a big pond. But it was a top school and I still knew I was the ****, just not at the top anymore. Then I got to med school and began to get my ass kicked regularly by kids who not only went to state schools, but directional state schools!! How was it possible?? Could it be that one's undergraduate background wasn't an instant marker of their intellectual ability?? Could it be that someone who went to a lesser school could be more hard-working, or just plain smarter than I was?? By the time I got to residency and was consistently outperformed by graduates of (gasp!) state medical schools, I had fully realized that maybe the name brand wasn't everything.

I survived the ego hit, and you will too someday. Good luck!!

Damn alum, he really hit a nerve with you haha

 

[efle]

Heh, she assumes my ego will have to take a hit one day

 

[22031 Alum]

I was talking about high school. The reason it makes no sense to have attendance in a good college is because to get in, you have to be at least decent as a high school student. The students who ditch lots of class and never do their assignments in high school don't go into the Ivy League. It's a filter preventing the type of students that need an attendance policy in place to learn anything from being at your college. But clearly you have an ax to grind about my having a high opinion of students at good colleges, just address that directly instead of trying to put words in my mouth / passive-aggressive snarkiness! Perhaps you can convince me that someone with a 4.0 at MIT doesn't have to be intelligent after all

I'll give you passive aggressive.

Going to college brings a lot of independence that can affect even the most hardcore "tryhards." High-achieving high schoolers can quickly become chronic absentees once nobody's taking roll. You don't have to believe me when I say that applies to all schools (even your Ivy), but it does.

Damn alum, he really hit a nerve with you haha

I see a lot of my younger self in all the arrogance. Just trying to drop some knowledge and prevent some future angst.

 

[Tommyguns89]

I don't buy this.

For one, everyone at my school routinely gives their clickers to other students to check in/answer questions for them. The professors know this goes on but also know that such is life and they can't do anything about it.
For two, going to the bathroom is allowed lol. If the friend was just checking in for you, there should be no issue because you were at class that day. If he was answering questions for you, I could see worst case scenario you getting a 0 for participation that day and the friend getting in trouble too.

I served on my school's academic integrity board (required for another club I was in) and this would never result in an F for the semester. Most likely, you'd receive a 0 for the day and have to write a paper or something to show you've learned from it and won't do it again, basically a warning/equivalent of detention.

Something doesn't add up.

I have heard of stuff like this happening to people at my school, and all my professors who have used clickers have had a line in the syllabus about people who are caught operating another's clicker or having somebody else operate their clicker would fail the course and be reported to the academic judiciary. LOL now that I think about this one professor took clicker honesty to a whole new absurd level the year before me. There was a morning and noon version of this class and the morning people would give the answers to their friends in the noon class. This guy decides to switch the answers around for the noon class. Not only that but he reported everyone who picked the answer that was right for the morning class to the academic judiciary. I dont think anything came of it for obvious reasons(a lot of people just guess on clickers or sometimes make a mistake and get the wrong answer), but it goes to show you some schools/professors do take it very seriously.

 

[efle]

I'll give you passive aggressive.

Going to college brings a lot of independence that can affect even the most hardcore "tryhards." High-achieving high schoolers can quickly become chronic absentees once nobody's taking roll. You don't have to believe me when I say that applies to all schools (even your Ivy), but it does.



I see a lot of my younger self in all the arrogance. Just trying to drop some knowledge and prevent some future angst.

But not the putting words in my mouth bit? Telepathy must be cool ! I really did mean that I didn't understand why a group of people who were good students in high school needed a mandatory attendance policy. I don't think stepping foot onto a Top 25 campus instantly makes you want to attend every class. I never went to any of my big lectures because the stuff was put online, they trusted we'd teach ourselves however we wanted. I'm not at Ivy

If I am ever suddenly a small fish I'll come back for some wisdom

 

[md-2020]

How did you like Penn?

Ohhh so we're gonna do the undergrad guessing game? Fun!

My guess for you: Duke

 

[WingedOx]

Not anymore. Yes, valuable people, regardless of field are somewhat protected because losing them costs people money, but things are rapidly changing and people are becoming more and more accountable.

Seriously. I personally know of a case THIS WEEK where dickish behavior got a very respected surgeon canned.

 

[ZedsDed]

I'll give you passive aggressive.

Going to college brings a lot of independence that can affect even the most hardcore "tryhards." High-achieving high schoolers can quickly become chronic absentees once nobody's taking roll. You don't have to believe me when I say that applies to all schools (even your Ivy), but it does.



I see a lot of my younger self in all the arrogance. Just trying to drop some knowledge and prevent some future angst.

I will say though, Efle walks the walk. Dude scored like 99.9th percentile on the mcat. I only get annoyed when a 3.0 from Stanford talks down to the valedictorian from Berkeley. Not that Efle was talking down to anyone.

 

[WingedOx]

You know, I sometimes feel that I haven't really changed all that much as a person since my college days. I don't feel that different after all...

Then I read a string of pre-meds trying to justify cheating/dishonesty as long as it's small, or doesn't affect anyone, or the policy is dumb in the first place, etc. And I think, "Maybe I am a real grownup."

Honestly if there's one thing in this thread that makes me realize college was a long time ago, it's @md-2020 's username.

 

[HarryH00d]

How did you like Penn?

Ohhh so we're gonna do the undergrad guessing game? Fun!

My guess for you: Duke

Do you know how to tell if someone is a WashU Pre-med?


















They'll tell you

 

[md-2020]

Do you know how to tell if someone is a WashU Pre-med?


















They'll tell you

Man I'm bad at cyber stalking.

@efle obviously when I wrote Duke I meant WashU

 

[efle]

Ohhh so we're gonna do the undergrad guessing game? Fun!

My guess for you: Duke

Not really a guess, MD apps says Top 10 Ivy, you mentioned range 5-15, and the only Ivy ranked 5-10 is Penn.

Duke would have been too easy

I will say though, Efle walks the walk. Dude scored like 99.9th percentile on the mcat. I only get annoyed when a 3.0 from Stanford talks down to the valedictorian from Berkeley. Not that Efle was talking down to anyone.

Appreciate it. I know I already come across as enough of an elitist dingus without advertising my LizzyM though, hence no MDApps ID link. Can just have you popping in instead

 

[md-2020]

Not really a guess, MD apps says Top 10 Ivy, you mentioned range 5-15, and the only Ivy ranked 5-10 is Penn.

Not refuting your conclusion , but Top 10 Ivy was actually in reference to my MPH degree this past year. For undergrad I generally just reference Top 15, all of which (excluding HYPSM) I believe to be of equal caliber in all respects.

And c'mon....what's your LizzyM? 81? 83? Can't just lead us on like this

 

[efle]

Not refuting your conclusion, but Top 10 Ivy was in reference to my MPH this past year. For undergrad I generally just say Top 15, all of which (excluding HYPSM) I believe to be of equal caliber in all respects.

And c'mon....what's your LizzyM? 81? 83? Can't just lead us on like this

I don't really get what puts HYPSM on its own pedestal. All that seems to distinguish people any further is cooler ECs, luck with legacy status, etc. Schools like Caltech, Vandy and U Chicago have test scores higher than at least 2-3 in HYPSM but never get mentioned in the same breath regarding the "wow" factor added to the context of your GPA.

81

 

[ZedsDed]

@22031 Alum curious how prevalent inflated egos are at the residency level? I've heard conflicting reports.

 

[md-2020]

I don't really get what puts HYPSM on its own pedestal. All that seems to distinguish people any further is cooler ECs, luck with legacy status, etc. Schools like Caltech, Vandy and U Chicago have test scores higher than at least 2-3 in HYPSM but never get mentioned in the same breath regarding the "wow" factor added to the context of your GPA.

81

I put them on their own level simply b/c of school reputation and the extra weight that carries, either consciously or unconsciously throughout life. Networking and connections too, are unique at those schools.

81, eh? Maybe we'll see each other on the interview trail!