Cheating in med school?

[Medstart108]

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Most people have worked way too hard, paid way to much and have too much to lose to get kicked out of med school.

Not only that but its not the same cutthroat environment as pre-med.

 

[MSTPlease]

That's an interesting method. How could a cheater possibly be caught this way? Assuming the tests could be taken at home, couldn't they just shut the blinds and complete the exam with whatever resources they want?

I honestly don't know how one would get caught other than blabbing about to someone and getting reported. The tests can be taken anywhere. I even took quizzes once from a hotel room.

I have heard a rumor about a group that cheated together and they got caught because the test submission is timestamped so when a whole group submitted identical tests within seconds of each other they were able to do something about it. But one person looking up something for one question? No way they could prove it is my guess.

As I said in my post, I guess the idea is to expose students to the temptation that exists in the real world early on before it's too dangerous. I imagine the occasional ethics violation in a real practice is almost impossible to prove also. Cheating on your pre-clinicals would only hurt you since obviously Step 1 doesn't follow the same protocols as our school does.

 

[tantacles]

Why don't we all calm down to the smooth action of erotic CPR?

ftfy

 

[Planes2Doc]

I honestly don't know how one would get caught other than blabbing about to someone and getting reported. The tests can be taken anywhere. I even took quizzes once from a hotel room.

I have heard a rumor about a group that cheated together and they got caught because the test submission is timestamped so when a whole group submitted identical tests within seconds of each other they were able to do something about it. But one person looking up something for one question? No way they could prove it is my guess.

As I said in my post, I guess the idea is to expose students to the temptation that exists in the real world early on before it's too dangerous. I imagine the occasional ethics violation in a real practice is almost impossible to prove also. Cheating on your pre-clinicals would only hurt you since obviously Step 1 doesn't follow the same protocols as our school does.

There's also probably a big disconnect between the exams at your school and step 1. Assuming you will prep adequately with board review materials, cheating must be extremely tempting.

 

[534455]

Getting ready to start med school in the fall and just curious how frequent people cheat (if at all) at your school?

I feel like it would take some big balls, but I know a ton of people in undergrad who did, although most got caught. =]

Happens all the time. At all levels.
People cheat in medical school. Of course they do.
Doctors cheat. Hospital administrators cheat (Ever hear of Medicare fraud?).
People are people

Get over the idea that because someone is an MD/DO, they are somehow more holy, more honorable than the janitor. Chances are pretty good the Janitor has more scruples than the doctor

I threw 5 classmates under the bus who cheated. They still talk to me. Go figure.
The professors told me they already knew.

I won't put up with some apples spoiling the barrel. It's my school too, and my grades are measured against others. If someone has a "better" grade b/c they cheated, well...NIMBY!

tough cookies. Anyone who cheats in not concerned about others.

The funny thing you can tell who knows their stuff when we have to speak in front of the professors for group presentations, or in labs, or in clinics. It's obvious who knows their stuff and who does not. And just b/c you're supposedly AOA means absolutely nothing. You might be great at book reading but, tell us how you treat your patients.

Kinda like doctors bilking Medicare. happens all the time!

 

[Anastomoses]

Get over the idea that because someone is an MD/DO, they are somehow more holy, more honorable than the janitor. Chances are pretty good the Janitor has more scruples than the doctor

I threw 5 classmates under the bus who cheated. They still talk to me. Go figure.
The professors told me they already knew.

I won't put up with some apples spoiling the barrel. It's my school too, and my grades are measured against others. If someone has a "better" grade b/c they cheated, well...NIMBY!

tough cookies. Anyone who cheats in not concerned about others.

Yay for turning them in. I honestly felt shocked reading this thread and seeing how many students witnessed cheating in med school.

I actually DO EXPECT doctors and med students to be "holier" than the janitor. I think the profession is so dignified in its aims and the people working in it should be held to a standard higher than most.

When patients come in and you administer their care - they don't have an iota what we will be recommending or insisting is best...they are further at the mercy of the doctor's advice because their health or life or loved one may be in our hands; not to mention time constraints. what kind of person would throw in tests not required or prescribe things unnecessary? When I even hear the insinuation that hospitals get doctors to administer a certain amount of things by quota or to prescribe a certain pharmaceutical I get very frazzled by the notion.

I thought cheating led to immediate expulsion.

 

[Akali]

We had this one exam where somehow someone had gotten a copy of the test ahead of time and distributed it to people and they all aced it when they shouldn't have.

As far as I know, no one really got punished for it. Maybe only the person who distributed it, if anything.

 

[Silent Cool]

Cheating in med school is high risk with low reward. You can end your professional career with cheating. But your grades in med school during the preclinical years really don't matter much -- residencies are going to focus on Step 1 and clinical evaluations to a far far far greater extent. It would be like robbing a bank at gunpoint to steal the pennies.

+1. This is a perfect analogy.

Bottom line: don't cheat in medical school. It is beyond dumb, and has very little benefit.

 

[FutureInternist]

Cheating in med school is high risk with low reward. You can end your professional career with cheating. But your grades in med school during the preclinical years really don't matter much -- residencies are going to focus on Step 1 and clinical evaluations to a far far far greater extent. It would be like robbing a bank at gunpoint to steal the pennies.

Sure, but if you're completely starving (failing) then even the pennies look good

 

[MSTPlease]

There's also probably a big disconnect between the exams at your school and step 1. Assuming you will prep adequately with board review materials, cheating must be extremely tempting.

I found my coursework and exams to be excellent groundwork for step 1. I don't think the disconnect is larger than any other top 20 school has.

 

[Silent Cool]

Most people have worked way too hard, paid way to much and have too much to lose to get kicked out of med school.

Not only that but its not the same cutthroat environment as pre-med.

You're right--it's worse.

 

[Bojack Horseman]

I found my coursework and exams to be excellent groundwork for step 1. I don't think the disconnect is larger than any other top 20 school has.

how would you know what other schools are like?

 

[MSTPlease]

how would you know what other schools are like?

based on what i've seen on here and discussions with friends at other med schools. Why not question the person making the claim that my school's material must have a large disconnect to allow us to have our test policy?

 

[evilbooyaa]

based on what i've seen on here and discussions with friends at other med schools. Why not question the person making the claim that my school's material must have a large disconnect to allow us to have our test policy?

I agree with this. His school has accreditation (most likely), so the ACGME is OK with it. Who are we to question his school's methods just because they're not the same as the standard?

 

[KnuxNole]

Happens all the time. At all levels.
People cheat in medical school. Of course they do.
Doctors cheat. Hospital administrators cheat (Ever hear of Medicare fraud?).
People are people

Get over the idea that because someone is an MD/DO, they are somehow more holy, more honorable than the janitor. Chances are pretty good the Janitor has more scruples than the doctor

I threw 5 classmates under the bus who cheated. They still talk to me. Go figure.
The professors told me they already knew.

I won't put up with some apples spoiling the barrel. It's my school too, and my grades are measured against others. If someone has a "better" grade b/c they cheated, well...NIMBY!

tough cookies. Anyone who cheats in not concerned about others.

The funny thing you can tell who knows their stuff when we have to speak in front of the professors for group presentations, or in labs, or in clinics. It's obvious who knows their stuff and who does not. And just b/c you're supposedly AOA means absolutely nothing. You might be great at book reading but, tell us how you treat your patients.

Kinda like doctors bilking Medicare. happens all the time!

I'm surprised those 5 people would still talk to you. I'd imagine they try to screw you over massively😱

Unless you were anon, which would make more sense(and probably the best way to handle that situation if you decide to do that)

 

[tantacles]

I've certainly heard of cheating, especially in my school's pre-matriculation program. The stakes are high, and those students have everything to lose.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I'm surprised those 5 people would still talk to you. I'd imagine they try to screw you over massively😱

Unless you were anon, which would make more sense(and probably the best way to handle that situation if you decide to do that)

Yeah. I don't cheat, but if someone dicked me over like that I'd probably never talk to them again. That being said, it's a little more understandable than any situation that I would've been able to be dicked over in, so kudos on turning them in.

 

[Planes2Doc]

based on what i've seen on here and discussions with friends at other med schools. Why not question the person making the claim that my school's material must have a large disconnect to allow us to have our test policy?

I meant it's overkill compared to boards. An example is anatomy. Insane levels of minutiae which are low-yield on boards. This is what I mean by disconnect. Not your or anyone's school in general. If a class is so difficult with minimal representation on boards, I see why people would want to cheat.

 

[MSTPlease]

I meant it's overkill compared to boards. An example is anatomy. Insane levels of minutiae which are low-yield on boards. This is what I mean by disconnect. Not your or anyone's school in general. If a class is so difficult with minimal representation on boards, I see why people would want to cheat.

But then again, at schools with grading systems or BS P/F where they still have internal rank the urge to cheat exists whether or not the material relates to step 1. The urge to cheat is there even if it were perfectly step 1 material. Wouldn't you want to double check your answers to make sure you aren't failing?

As no one seems to have wanted to address, the "urge to cheat" will always be present regardless of the circumstance, starting with exams all the way into actual practice. Shouldn't we try to train doctors to resist the urge out of principle rather than out of fear of consequence? If the only thing keeping people from cheating is what happens when they get caught then won't they start cheating as soon as they figure out a way around it?

I'm not saying there shouldn't be consequences and I obviously understand that it's a bit idealistic to assume that the consequences aren't a factor for most people but I do think the overall message should be "cheating is wrong regardless of how easy it is to get away with and we trust that you won't do it because it's wrong." If you assume everyone cheats by doing all the strict ridiculous stuff then it only normalizes that cheating is to be expected when one can get away with it and only enforces not cheating because the risk/benefit ratio isn't in your favor not because it's morally reprehensible.

 

[Bojack Horseman]

But then again, at schools with grading systems or BS P/F where they still have internal rank the urge to cheat exists whether or not the material relates to step 1. The urge to cheat is there even if it were perfectly step 1 material. Wouldn't you want to double check your answers to make sure you aren't failing?

As no one seems to have wanted to address, the "urge to cheat" will always be present regardless of the circumstance, starting with exams all the way into actual practice. Shouldn't we try to train doctors to resist the urge out of principle rather than out of fear of consequence? If the only thing keeping people from cheating is what happens when they get caught then won't they start cheating as soon as they figure out a way around it?

I'm not saying there shouldn't be consequences and I obviously understand that it's a bit idealistic to assume that the consequences aren't a factor for most people but I do think the overall message should be "cheating is wrong regardless of how easy it is to get away with and we trust that you won't do it because it's wrong." If you assume everyone cheats by doing all the strict ridiculous stuff then it only normalizes that cheating is to be expected when one can get away with it and only enforces not cheating because the risk/benefit ratio isn't in your favor not because it's morally reprehensible.

I don't have the urge to cheat.

 

[534455]

I actually DO EXPECT doctors and med students to be "holier" than the janitor. I think the profession is so dignified in its aims and the people working in it should be held to a standard higher than most..

I think you are confusing idealism with realism. I think it is great you hold physicians to a higher bar. I agree. We all should . However, people are people at all levels.

Members of US Congress? Many are a worthless pile of excrement in both political parties. I have hoped for term limits at the Federal Legislative level for decades. I gave that one up a few years ago. US Federal Judges? Did you hear about the one in Texas, Edith Jones, who is a racist pig and yet she has been at the Federal Bench for decades? Talk about lowering the bar with that one. And then there are parents who abandon their kids like the woman who disappeared in Pennsylvania. Her 2 kids and husband were frantic searching for her high and low. She was in the Florida Keys shacking up, doing drugs and never even cared as so much to call her children to see how they were. Now she reappears "homeless" but....she wasn't truly homeless. Her daughter has wished her ill, her former husband doesn't want to deal with her.

We would have never heard of these types of things a few decades ago.

FACT: Some MD Students cheat. The idea that they should "not", or that it is "foolish" or "risky" are all very well and fine. Logic and behavior seldom go hand in hand.

Medical schools need to change their admissions strategies to focus less on MCAT and GPA, and more on character.

Report the cheaters in your MD school. If you do not, they will just be reinforced to continue cheating in other realms of medicine further corrupting the profession.

It is getting way out of hand too.

Plastic surgeon accused of secretly recording naked patients

Gynecologist Hid Camera Inside Pen: Dr. Nikita Levy Secretly Filmed Patients, Johns Hopkins Faces Lawsuit

 

[MSTPlease]

I don't have the urge to cheat.

Maybe "incentive" would be the better word but I think you're missing the point if that's your response.

 

[Anastomoses]

I'm not saying there shouldn't be consequences and I obviously understand that it's a bit idealistic to assume that the consequences aren't a factor for most people but I do think the overall message should be "cheating is wrong regardless of how easy it is to get away with and we trust that you won't do it because it's wrong." If you assume everyone cheats by doing all the strict ridiculous stuff then it only normalizes that cheating is to be expected when one can get away with it and only enforces not cheating because the risk/benefit ratio isn't in your favor not because it's morally reprehensible.

I agree. In honor classes in high school our teachers would walk out of the room during tests and I don't recall ever seeing violations. It just would have been bizarre amid our crowd and embarrassing.

I see it as a twofold issue 1. You're basically taking the chance of expulsion + embarrassment 2. You're selfishly undermining a system which is for the fairness and benefit of all.

FACT: Some MD Students cheat. The idea that they should "not", or that it is "foolish" or "risky" are all very well and fine. Logic and behavior seldom go hand in hand.

Medical schools need to change their admissions strategies to focus less on MCAT and GPA, and more on character.

Report the cheaters in your MD school. If you do not, they will just be reinforced to continue cheating in other realms of medicine further corrupting the profession.

Plastic surgeon accused of secretly recording naked patients

Gynecologist Hid Camera Inside Pen: Dr. Nikita Levy Secretly Filmed Patients, Johns Hopkins Faces Lawsuit

The pervert with the camera has a whole different score of issues. I don't think that's just an ethics problem.

I'm not a fan of the idea that students are put to "character assessment" for entry to med schools and that's because it's a slippery slope and something incredibly subjective and impossible to measure. Maybe someone being socially awkward and not "fuzzy wuzzy" enough would be held against them. I'll take a knowledgeable attention-to-detail doctor over a fresh faced gregarious doctor any day of the week.
Ethical infractions, on the other hand, deserve loss of the ability to practice.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I think you are confusing idealism with realism. I think it is great you hold physicians to a higher bar. I agree. We all should . However, people are people at all levels.

Members of US Congress? Many are a worthless pile of excrement in both political parties. I have hoped for term limits at the Federal Legislative level for decades. I gave that one up a few years ago. US Federal Judges? Did you hear about the one in Texas, Edith Jones, who is a racist pig and yet she has been at the Federal Bench for decades? Talk about lowering the bar with that one. And then there are parents who abandon their kids like the woman who disappeared in Pennsylvania. Her 2 kids and husband were frantic searching for her high and low. She was in the Florida Keys shacking up, doing drugs and never even cared as so much to call her children to see how they were. Now she reappears "homeless" but....she wasn't truly homeless. Her daughter has wished her ill, her former husband doesn't want to deal with her.

We would have never heard of these types of things a few decades ago.

FACT: Some MD Students cheat. The idea that they should "not", or that it is "foolish" or "risky" are all very well and fine. Logic and behavior seldom go hand in hand.

Medical schools need to change their admissions strategies to focus less on MCAT and GPA, and more on character.

Report the cheaters in your MD school. If you do not, they will just be reinforced to continue cheating in other realms of medicine further corrupting the profession.

It is getting way out of hand too.

Plastic surgeon accused of secretly recording naked patients

Gynecologist Hid Camera Inside Pen: Dr. Nikita Levy Secretly Filmed Patients, Johns Hopkins Faces Lawsuit

There is a huge difference between cheating in medical school and secretly recording encounters. One of them is unethical, illegal, and subject to severe punishment is caught. The other is secretly recording encounters, which is a "necessity" for our own government to protect us from "evil-do'ers".

 

[schwasted589]

My friend goes to law school (using that as an example because I don't know if any med schools have this) but they have an honor code. People take their exams wherever, leave their personal belongings in the library and leave for the day, etc. Nothing gets stolen. The punishment for getting caught stealing/cheating is automatic expulsion. NO excuses. She said they've only had 1 problem in the 3 years she's been there.

I've heard from my other friend who is in med school about cheating (mostly on the part of the SMP students). She had money stolen on multiple occasions when they had to leave their purse/backpack out and other students have had stuff stolen from study rooms. There's no one else that has access to those rooms besides other med students.

Maybe the honor code with automatic expulsion is a better idea? I don't know. It was just really crazy being able to leave stuff laying around without worrying about ****ty people.

 

[Planes2Doc]

I think you are confusing idealism with realism. I think it is great you hold physicians to a higher bar. I agree. We all should . However, people are people at all levels.

Members of US Congress? Many are a worthless pile of excrement in both political parties. I have hoped for term limits at the Federal Legislative level for decades. I gave that one up a few years ago. US Federal Judges? Did you hear about the one in Texas, Edith Jones, who is a racist pig and yet she has been at the Federal Bench for decades? Talk about lowering the bar with that one. And then there are parents who abandon their kids like the woman who disappeared in Pennsylvania. Her 2 kids and husband were frantic searching for her high and low. She was in the Florida Keys shacking up, doing drugs and never even cared as so much to call her children to see how they were. Now she reappears "homeless" but....she wasn't truly homeless. Her daughter has wished her ill, her former husband doesn't want to deal with her.

We would have never heard of these types of things a few decades ago.

FACT: Some MD Students cheat. The idea that they should "not", or that it is "foolish" or "risky" are all very well and fine. Logic and behavior seldom go hand in hand.

Medical schools need to change their admissions strategies to focus less on MCAT and GPA, and more on character.

Report the cheaters in your MD school. If you do not, they will just be reinforced to continue cheating in other realms of medicine further corrupting the profession.

It is getting way out of hand too.

Plastic surgeon accused of secretly recording naked patients

Gynecologist Hid Camera Inside Pen: Dr. Nikita Levy Secretly Filmed Patients, Johns Hopkins Faces Lawsuit

Focus more on character?! Well, we see how that turns out so far. Nothing is more fun than reading about the huge facades people put on in the pre-allo boards, and then talking in person to current medical students about how "$&!?&@$ stupid that $&@!" was. Sorry, medical students are human beings. They aren't morally superior. You have the good and the bad. There's no sense in pushing unrealistic expectations any further.