Chestnut Hill vs. William James Psy D.

[deleted1029955]

I recently went on interviews to both schools and am wondering if anyone has any experience with one/both of them. I have not heard back from either one of them yet regarding my admissions decision, but I am just curious about what people have to say about the programs. Which one do you think is better and why?

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[WisNeuro]

Don't know much about CH, WJ has a terrible reputation, though.

 

[WisNeuro]

What are the accredited match rates?

 

[deleted1029955]

What are the accredited match rates?

William James had 94% in 2018-2019. Chestnut Hill had 100%

 

[SportsNeuroPsych]

I know of a couple of people who went to Chestnut Hill and they all had generally positive experiences from what I remember. However, this was mostly in the context of their neuropsych classes/training/etc.

Never heard of William James to be honest.

 

[WisNeuro]

WJ used to be the MSPP I believe. Decent rates, as long as they aren't captive internships. I'd probably be picking based on which one would put me in the least amount of debt if those were my only choices.

 

[thebalmofhurtminds]

William James had 94% in 2018-2019. Chestnut Hill had 100%

Have they changed drastically in recent years? The match rate for Chestnut Hill (from a quick google search) 5 years ago was 33%.

 

[WisNeuro]

Have they changed drastically in recent years? The match rate for Chestnut Hill (from a quick google search) 5 years ago was 33%.

According to their site, they now have a captive internship, which is how they game their numbers.

 

[thebalmofhurtminds]

According to their site, they now have a captive internship, which is how they game their numbers.

Sigh.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I have had some experience with co-workers and practica students from MSPP/William James. Some observations:
-Quality of clinical skills is highly variable, ranging from totally clueless to decent
-Quality of "academic skills" (writing abilities; basic math/stats) is highly variable and-anecdotally- probably the biggest differentiating factor between WJ students and practica students I've had from the local State U clinical Ph.D. program. I have received reports from WJ students with a level of grammar, style, punctuation, and proof reading that would have- literally- gotten them dismissed/placed on leave from my grad program.
-Quality of professional skills and attitude is even more variable, ranging from "poor skills, but working on it" to "poor skills, but that's your problem, not mine" to decent professional skills.
-Level of extreme debt from outrageous tuition, compounded by insanely high cost of living in Boston metro area (not NY or San Fran high, but pretty close) was pretty consistent across the practica students.

My (again anecdotal) take on WJ is that the training is highly variable, as are the pre-existing skill-set of the students. There are plenty of intelligent and motivated students who have been very good practica students and will, no doubt, make good psychologists someday. There are also plenty more who really are not adequately prepared for graduate level educational and occupational endeavors. I get the sense that a lot of that had to do with what they brought with them to WJ, vs. what they got there. Cohorts are large, and there is a lot of competition in the area. I do believe they have some some captive internship slots. It's INCREDIBLY (imho UNREASONABLY) expensvie, and return on investment varies greatly. Best I can say is caveat emptor. Although a bit harsh, if this was the only type of program I could get accepted to, I would question if it was the best career choice for me. I have a co-worker who went there, and this person is a highly competent psychologist who I frequently go to for consultation and assistance. This person's view of the program is similar to what I stated above.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

I almost applied to Chestnut Hill for a faculty position. Then I read online somewhere that their pay is very low. Take that for what it is.

I would definitely run the opposite direction of William James. Everything about them screams trouble. Their cohort sizes are giant, their tuition is ridiculous, and they changed their name recently which is suspicious.

Chestnut Hill seems to be a bit better with smaller cohort sizes and lower debt.

Either way, unless you are independently wealthy I wouldn't recommend either program b/c of cost.

 

[psyche27]

According to their site, they now have a captive internship, which is how they game their numbers.

I wish schools were required to report the % of their students attending a captive internship for this reason.

 

[psych.meout]

I wish schools were required to report the % of their students attending a captive internship for this reason.

Exactly, it renders the requirement to post program statistics obsolete. They should have to report both captive internships and statistics for debt attributable to the program.

 

[BorderlineQueen]

The estimated cost of attendance for one year for William James is 75k. https://www.williamjames.edu/admissions/tuition-and-aid/upload/psyd-clinical-shopping-sheet.pdf On a psychologists salary 300k in loans will be very difficult to repay.

 

[ClinicalABA]

The estimated cost of attendance for one year for William James is 75k. https://www.williamjames.edu/admissions/tuition-and-aid/upload/psyd-clinical-shopping-sheet.pdf On a psychologists salary 300k in loans will be very difficult to repay.

And that 75k is based on a sub-minimum wage living expense allowance, and only for 9 months. Good luck living in Boston at that rate. Also, what about the other 3 months per year of living expenses? Not too many 9-month leases out there, and you still have to eat.

They quote median total program loans of 176k. That’s 2000/month at 10 year, 5% fixed. Assuming a decent job (mid career median salary), that’s about 1/3 of your gross salary going to graduate debt (and you likely have some undergrad debt too). It’s been my experience with these students that a lot of life is also financed on a 10% credit card. This whole thing is a financial nightmare.

 

[deleted1029955]

And that 75k is based on a sub-minimum wage living expense allowance, and only for 9 months. Good luck living in Boston at that rate. Also, what about the other 3 months per year of living expenses? Not too many 9-month leases out there, and you still have to eat.

They quote median total program loans of 176k. That’s 2000/month at 10 year, 5% fixed. Assuming a decent job (mid career median salary), that’s about 1/3 of your gross salary going to graduate debt (and you likely have some undergrad debt too). It’s been my experience with these students that a lot of life is also financed on a 10% credit card. This whole thing is a financial nightmare.

I don't have undergraduate debt. I recalculated the cost of it yearly deducted things (already have health insurance, not paying full living expense, student loans) and it came out to $62,673

 

[ClinicalABA]

I don't have undergraduate debt. I recalculated the cost of it yearly deducted things (already have health insurance, not paying full living expense, student loans) and it came out to $62,673

If you have to finance even half of that over 5-6 years, you will be hand-cuffed by student loan payments for at least a decade.

 

[psych.meout]

I don't have undergraduate debt. I recalculated the cost of it yearly deducted things (already have health insurance, not paying full living expense, student loans) and it came out to $62,673

Which is still an absurd amount. Multiply that by 4 or 5 years and then factor in compounding interest, application, travel, and moving expenses for internship, and other known expenses, as well as any unforeseen expenses (e.g. car repairs, illness).

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I would say $62k-75k/year is expensive even by medical and dental school standards. And graduate school tends to last a year or two longer (plus the year you'll have to pay for while on internship) than either.

 

[cara susanna]

I interviewed for a faculty job at Chestnut Hill and it seemed like a good program. The match rate does seem concerning, though.

 

[Sanman]

If you have to finance even half of that over 5-6 years, you will be hand-cuffed by student loan payments for at least a decade.

I can the numbers for fun

For 5 years that is $313,365 in loans

At 6.8% on a 10 year loan that is $3,606/ month
even a 25 year repayment plan is $2,175/month

This is an income-based hope and pray (REPAYE) level of debt. You can't pay it off with even a good psychologist salary while maintaining a decent standard of living.

 

[WisNeuro]

But, those aren't real numbers. Just figures out in the ether...

 

[Sanman]

But, those aren't real numbers. Just figures out in the ether...

That was based on the $62,673 estimate thrown out. Just wanted to illustrate ballpark payments using a student loan calculator. Reality will of course be different. However, based on that estimate, you would never be able to pay the loans back on a psychologist salary. You would need the debt load to be one third of that for it to be manageable, IMO.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I can the numbers for fun

For 5 years that is $313,365 in loans

At 6.8% on a 10 year loan that is $3,606/ month
even a 25 year repayment plan is $2,175/month

This is an income-based hope and pray (REPAYE) level of debt. You can't pay it off with even a good psychologist salary while maintaining a decent standard of living.

With a relatively decent psychologist's salary, after modest retirement deductions, taxes, insurance, etc., you'd be looking at about $2500-3000/month take-home with that 25-year plan. Livable, yes. But rough when you consider the time and energy invested, and that's not considering additional savings to make up for lost time RE: retirement. And it would be for the majority of your career.

 

[WisNeuro]

That was based on the $62,673 estimate thrown out. Just wanted to illustrate ballpark payments using a student loan calculator. Reality will of course be different. However, based on that estimate, you would never be able to pay the loans back on a psychologist salary. You would need the debt load to be one third of that for it to be manageable, IMO.

Oh, I wasn't pushing back on your numbers. My comment was more about the attitude of debt, in which many people don't really have a concept of what they debt looks like in the real world. To them, it's all monopoly money at the time.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Oh, I wasn't pushing back on your numbers. My comment was more about the attitude of debt, in which many people don't really have a concept of what they debt looks like in the real world. To them, it's all monopoly money at the time.

I think people also don't accurately account for payroll taxes and deductions. "Oh, 25K per year in payments with 75k salary? I'd still have 50k to pay rent, pay for my phone, eat, play, drive a new car, etc.! Where do I sign the promissory note?"

I've said it in other posts, but I'll repeat here. My monthly loan payments are ~$400 (mainly from undergrad). Not an awful amount in the grand scheme of things, but it is still a very VERY noticeable monthly expenditure (and may salary is much higher than the mid-career median). That's 400 bucks that isn't making me interest in a retirement account, paying for a nice vacation, paying off the car loan, or paying for my kids' college tuition. 10 years ago it was a MAJOR expense that was felt much more. I could not fathom an additional 600-1600+ per month. It would not be sustainable, but it's not forgiveable either.

 

[WisNeuro]

I think people also don't accurately account for payroll taxes and deductions. "Oh, 25K per year in payments with 75k salary? I'd still have 50k to pay rent, pay for my phone, eat, play, drive a new car, etc.! Where do I sign the promissory note?"

I've said it in other posts, but I'll repeat here. My monthly loan payments are ~$400 (mainly from undergrad). Not an awful amount in the grand scheme of things, but it is still a very VERY noticeable monthly expenditure (and may salary is much higher than the mid-career median). That's 400 bucks that isn't making me interest in a retirement account, paying for a nice vacation, paying off the car loan, or paying for my kids' college tuition. 10 years ago it was a MAJOR expense that was felt much more. I could not fathom an additional 600-1600+ per month. It would not be sustainable, but it's not forgiveable either.

Those loans definitely change your options. For example, I am currently considering moving into more PP/forensic type work. I'd have to drop a good chunk of change to get all of my own testing supplies/subscriptions/etc to start that up. Luckily, I have more than enough liquid capital to make that happen pretty easily. If I had been making big loan payments over the past 10 years, not so much.

 

[Peacemaker36]

William James is a decent option for people who can easily afford tuition (with savings or a gift from a spouse or family) and who have the "pre-existing skill set" that Clinical ABA mentioned. Without the skill set, a student wouldn't be competitive for quality practicums or the APA internship match. Strong students tend to do just fine there.

I often forget how many wealthy people there are who can easily pay $300k towards something that will likely give them a satisfying career.

William James is a risky option for people who have to take on the debt, especially if they also are mediocre students and end up with low quality training experiences. So, for most people, William James is not a safe option.

In my opinion, the hang-wringing about captive APA internships is somewhat inflated on SDN. As long as you get an APA internship, your options for employment in clinical jobs are fairly wide open.

 

[Ollie123]

Even the 20 year number is significantly more than my mortgage. Even as a psychologist earning well above median pay with a spouse who has a high-paying job, we could not afford a second mortgage (well we COULD...but it would be absolutely awful and not at all worth it). Your circumstances may differ, but financially these are poor choices. I would strongly consider either reapplying to funded programs or looking at master's options in this situation. Truthfully, I don't view doctoral degrees from these schools as being <that> different from a master's anyways - the education level certainly seems more aligned with most master's programs than a traditional doctorate.

RE: Peacemaker's point - I don't know that much of the hand-wringing about captive internships here is relevant to individuals. I agree that "APA accredited" is fundamentally all that matters on the back end. At least to me, its more that creating captive internships has become a way for shoddy schools whose students wouldn't be competitive nationally to "game the system" and inflate their match rates. I have some general concerns about captive internships (e.g. insular training, academic inbreeding) but these are nit-picky in the grand scheme of things. My bigger concern is that the schools that have them seem to be ones who <need> them...generally schools I don't think offer very strong training.

 

[WisNeuro]

I wouldn't call it hand-wringing, I'd say that we are just informing people that they will have a more difficult time acquiring internships/postdocs/jobs in those cases. Many of us have either a large role, or sole authority in those decisions and see those applications pushed down the list or not considered on a regular basis.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I go back and forth on captive internships. To a degree, traveling "abroad" for a single year of clinical training could seem somewhat silly, and I fundamentally don't have a problem with the training being offered by the parent graduate program. Assuming the quality is independently verified as meeting a minimum bar (i.e., APA accreditation), and the internship is appropriately separated from the graduate program.

But then I also recognize that anecdotally, I got a lot out of my own internship year, and I believe a big part of that was it having occurred in an entirely different program (and, in my case, state).

/end thread derail.

Between the two, based on what's been said so far, my read is that CH may be a slightly better option.

 

[MiniLop]

I have had some experience with co-workers and practica students from MSPP/William James. Some observations:
-Quality of clinical skills is highly variable, ranging from totally clueless to decent
-Quality of "academic skills" (writing abilities; basic math/stats) is highly variable and-anecdotally- probably the biggest differentiating factor between WJ students and practica students I've had from the local State U clinical Ph.D. program. I have received reports from WJ students with a level of grammar, style, punctuation, and proof reading that would have- literally- gotten them dismissed/placed on leave from my grad program.
-Quality of professional skills and attitude is even more variable, ranging from "poor skills, but working on it" to "poor skills, but that's your problem, not mine" to decent professional skills.
-Level of extreme debt from outrageous tuition, compounded by insanely high cost of living in Boston metro area (not NY or San Fran high, but pretty close) was pretty consistent across the practica students.

My (again anecdotal) take on WJ is that the training is highly variable, as are the pre-existing skill-set of the students. There are plenty of intelligent and motivated students who have been very good practica students and will, no doubt, make good psychologists someday. There are also plenty more who really are not adequately prepared for graduate level educational and occupational endeavors. I get the sense that a lot of that had to do with what they brought with them to WJ, vs. what they got there. Cohorts are large, and there is a lot of competition in the area. I do believe they have some some captive internship slots. It's INCREDIBLY (imho UNREASONABLY) expensvie, and return on investment varies greatly. Best I can say is caveat emptor. Although a bit harsh, if this was the only type of program I could get accepted to, I would question if it was the best career choice for me. I have a co-worker who went there, and this person is a highly competent psychologist who I frequently go to for consultation and assistance. This person's view of the program is similar to what I stated above.

My experience working with WJ folks was maybe a bit more positive, in that some of them seemed very strong overall, though others were on the "you shouldn't even be allowed to see clients" level. I think it points to the general issue with large cohort PsyD programs in general, in that they accept basically everyone. I don't know if PhD program attendance necessarily results in better clinicians, but the barrier for entry is so high that it weeds out most (though definitely not all) of the talentless folks. With large cohort PsyDs, you get the whole gamut, from highly skilled to eternally clueless.

 

[R. Matey]

I would strongly consider either reapplying to funded programs or looking at master's options in this situation.

Seriously consider this. I was in a similar situation a number of years ago with two high cost Psy.D. programs in my city at the time. I rejected both, reapplied, and got into a fully funded Ph.D. program at an R1.

 

[deleted1029955]

I'm not interested in pursuing a Ph.D.

 

[Justanothergrad]

I'm not interested in pursuing a Ph.D.

Is this some variation of the "I don't need research in psychology" argument?

 

[deleted1029955]

No. I am heavily involved in research as an undergraduate. I just don't want it to be a major role in my graduate career and I am not interested in teaching at a university.

 

[PsyNeuro37]

No. I am heavily involved in research as an undergraduate. I just don't want it to be a major role in my graduate career and I am not interested in teaching at a university.

The vast majority of clinical psychology programs are an equal emphasis between research/clinical work and are set up to prepare individuals for clinical careers. There isn’t much difference between an equal emphasis PhD and any reputable PsyD program, so I would highly encourage you not to exclude PhD programs because you don’t want to go into academia.

 

[R. Matey]

No. I am heavily involved in research as an undergraduate. I just don't want it to be a major role in my graduate career and I am not interested in teaching at a university.

Then why get a doctorate? An LCSW would be a better investment of your time and money if your only goal is clinical practice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[healthyu]

No. I am heavily involved in research as an undergraduate. I just don't want it to be a major role in my graduate career and I am not interested in teaching at a university.

There are clinical heavy programs/labs that will tailor based on your future goals. Programs know that they will graduate students who do not want to go into academia or have a research career. You will have to do a minimal amount of research based on the school’s requirement. It also increases your chances of getting funding and better training with the smaller cohort size.