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Does anyone have any opinions about the Chicago programs for radiology? I'll be looking at Northwestern, University of Chicago, Rush, Loyola, and UIC.
Chicago programs
- Thread starter cozmopak
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U of C and NW have the best reputation in terms of the Chicago programs. U of C is more academic but NW has the better location.
Loyola, Rush, and UIC are still all solid programs but the two above are the most competitive.
Loyola, Rush, and UIC are still all solid programs but the two above are the most competitive.
I received an interview/visited every place but UChicago. I will review them in my own "Rank List" based upon observation and talking with multiple radiologists, residents, and even medical students, and this is all based on stressing the last several months about the match and talking to at least ten or fifteen radiologists already practicing in Chicago. I did my research, hope it isn't too detailed.
-Northwestern.
Big program, 8 residents, the "best" location. This is my home school. I can tell you from spending four years here and doing two radiology rotations that the attendings range from some of the nicest funniest people you have ever met in your life, to people that just downright hate being a radiologist. If you look at where all the attendings went to school and/or trained they are from all over the country and have a very wide range of residency, both good and bad. This can be bad because if you want to stay in Chicago many of these attendings aren't as well connected. It can be good because they are more connected to other areas of the country. The equipment is state of the art. Residents didn't seem super happy. Most of them griped to me about the work and told me to look elsewhere. Take that for what its worth. IMO this is not so much a problem of Northwestern but the residents come from the most elite schools and IMO some of them have a sense of entitlement and are pissed that they have to work hard and read films all day. Northwestern is a top program, more clinically focused and not as academic as UofC. That generally means that the residents "read more films" and "take more call." Hence the griping? NU is a level I trauma center so be aware of that on the trail with ANY program--ask if it is level I trauma. If it is, more work for you and very little gain for board prep. Resident placement seems to vary--obviously overall very strong both locally and abroad, but in the end I would say MOST of the residents seem to be from all over the country and end up going back there after residency, not as many stay in Chicago. Great program overall, kind of like a top clinical program if your goal is to end up on the coasts.
-UChicago.
7 residents. The best call schedule in the city. Talking to other practicing radiologists around the city they kind of view the program as geared towards academics and not towards private practice (which is where you make all the money and where my goals were). I'm sure you can get a job in private practice pretty easy from here, but just know that you will be doing a lot of research and doing a lot of talks, and the goal is to get you into academic radiology. Just changed program director's last year so that is usually not a good sign. But it's hard to mess with University of Chicago as a name. Not a level I trauma center so that means your life will be better. Located in a "struggling" area of the city so be aware of that. Haven't really talked with the residents, but I know one fellow at NU that had their residency here and they "hated" it for what it's worth. They were not happy at all. He was plenty happy at NU though. I didn't bother asking much about that but I can't imagine why after seeing their call schedule at UofC. I have a feeling its because the program is in a flux and the whole atmosphere at UofC is to get you into research and academics. I think this guy just wanted a good private practice job and wanted to be a good radiologist, not necessarily research anything. The UofC hospitals as a whole, as great and respected as they are, are struggling with money and many of the attendings in various fields are looking for jobs elsewhere, so be aware of that. All being said, if you are a resident here you will do well and I'm sure be able to practice wherever you want, academic or otherwise. I'd rank the program high if your goal is academics or you want to end up on the coasts.
-Rush.
Large academic medical center as are the programs above. Solid "second best" program in the city after NU/UofC which are pretty much tied for best rep, though pretty much everyone I talked to put Rush/UofC/NU/Loyola all in the same vein and of the same reputation as being "equally great," at least locally here in Chicago. That's a direct quote from two fellowship directors. Anyways, Rush has state of the art equiment like the above programs and is building a $700 million new hospital with a sick new interventional platform shared with orthopaedic, general and neurosurgery that will be done by the time you get there (2012). Just got a $20 million infusion of cash from a donor specifically to build a Center for Advanced Imaging too which just might end up being the best in the city when complete. Smaller program for you, only five residents. Probably means more call than average so be aware of that. You will do more clinically here than the above two programs. Not as much research, more preparing you for a private practice job and hooking you up with a job in Chicago. That seemed to be the goal: "You will be well prepared here, you can do research if you want to, and we will hook you up with the best jobs in Chicago." Kind of evident by their attendings and match list, which were pretty much 100% people from Chicago or Chicago-area medical schools. Residents seemed the happiest out of all programs IMO. Laid back, none of the attendings OR residents were wearing white coats. The nicest program director by far. Everyone was just super happy and social and laid back. Anyways, I would rank this program high if you are looking for excellent placement for local Chicago jobs, but I wouldn't rank Rush high if your goal is eventually California or NYC as Rush is well known and well connected in the upper midwest, especially Chicago, but not so much outside of it. That said, like all programs you will see in here, fellowship placement is excellent and you can go anywhere in the country for fellowships.
-Loyola.
Hardest working residents in the area, and everyone knows it. Very formal feeling, everyone was wearing white coats and there was very little joking around and laughing among residents and attendings unlike Rush. Located in the basement which is honestly very depressing. Yes you are in a dark room, but this was depressing. Chicago > Maywood, so location goes to NU/UIC/Rush/Masonic for best location by far. On the plus side, excellent, excellent job placement. Private practice guys really view Loyola residents as some of if not the best in the city so if you go here you will have no problem finding a great private practice job that pays very very well. Not that the other programs are a slouch at all but Loyola is viewed particularly well for this. All being said, ranked them low because of depressing environment that felt really formal. I mean even in the reading rooms white coats were "required" which I thought was a little too strict for me. Not laid back at all. But overall a very solid program that like Rush, NU and UofC, I couldn't find a single radiologist that thought a bad thing about it and had nothing but great things to say about it. Like Rush, I would rank Loyola high if you are looking for excellent local job placement after residency.
-UIC.
Big program, 8 residents. Residents seemed happy and laid back, but the equipment and hospital is very dated. They desperately need some of that Obama stimulus for a new hospital or something. That said, this is the ONLY program that I heard "bad things" about when talking to other radiologists and students in the area. Most just said that "it used to be a great program, but now it has some problems." That was coming from a couple radiologists. I guess those "problems" are with disorganization and switching around program directors and the level of the equipment. Another program with a brand new program director this year, never a great sign but who knows, maybe the new guy is really good. It is also an unorganized, big university place, for better and for worse. Better for you because you can probably sneak out and take less call, but worse because it appears many people are on to this. It is also a big program that doesn't do a ton of studies, and is not level I trauma, yet it has 8 residents, so do the math--you probably won't work all that hard. This is a good thing for you IMO but a bad thing for rep. Also I know around 8 UIC students and none of them said they were ranking UIC number 1 for rads. That was a bad sign IMO. Overall I wanted to like this program more but it was the only one of the big programs that I consistently heard semi-bad things about, and after awhile you begin to wonder. Nothing serious though that will affect your job placement, but enough to make you note they aren't on the same level as the above programs. My advisor at NU thought very highly of this program though. I have two friends who matched at UIC and they are really smart and ranked it right behind places like Penn and I'm sure they will get great jobs. All in all, it sounds like a "bad" program but it really isn't. The thing you get on the interview trail is that no matter where you go, you will be able to get an "elite" fellowship because fellowships just aren't that competitive to get, so relax even if you get into a place that has some "bad reps" about it. It's more hearsay than anything and I know radiologists at Northwestern that went to UIC and they look the same as everyone else.
-Cook.
Four residents, you are at Cook County. What more needs to be said. You will be SUPER-UBER-trained but you will also take a ton of call. They just got their first 64-slice CT last year (!) so the equipment is really dated, perhaps the worst in the city for equipment. It's Cook County what do you expect. No one will blame you for it--this is real medicine, where the tire meets the road. For better and for worse. They didn't even have a web site, put it that way. But the residents were happy and laid back, and no one can screw with you having gone to residency at perhaps the craziest hospital in the city. One of the residents said they averaged 50 CT reads a day! That is almost private practice numbers! Program director is super laid back, almost too much so. Seems to not agree with the ACGME and American Society of Radiology on a lot of things which worried me. But one of the perks of Cook is you will make the most money during residency. Residents were averaging over $60k/year because they can moonlight often. I'm sure the job placement is excellent coming from here too, who wouldn't hire someone who is already pretty much fully trained in private practice.
-Advocate Masonic.
Very surprising program with a strong local reputation. 3 residents, very small program, a ton of call. Probably the most call in the city. What I feel is the best location by far, well above NU. Right in the heart of Lincoln Park, the nicest neighborhood in the city. Residents seemed very average on the happiness level. It was more like "eh, it's residency how happy should I be." That said, this is a very strong program that will get you a great job and has a great rep. Fellowship placement on par with any of the above programs. When talking with my advisor about local programs he put Advocate right up there with all the other programs above. 17th highest board scores in the country--no one fails because they see so much and take so much call. That said, don't go here if you want a big program or want to do a lot of research. And don't rank them high if your goal is California or NYC. They will probably have never heard of the place.
-St. Francis.
Ahhhh St. Francis. I feel sorry for these guys in a way. Did you know this is the second oldest residency program IN THE COUNTRY? It's been around that long! Small program, takes 2 residents and only interviews 25 people per year. Sometimes doesn't fill. Very small community hospital in a very nice suburb. Residents seemed happy but they take a lot of call, and the huge red flag to me was their board pass rate. The board pass rate of all of the above programs, maybe minus Cook County, hovers around 100%. For St. Francis it was 65%. For that reason alone I ended up not ranking them at all. That said, their fellowship and job placement is as strong as ANY of the above programs. Residents go on to fellowships at Harvard, UCSF, Michigan, etc. Amazing! But remember, fellowship placements in general are not totally competitive like Rad residency, so I'm not sure how much that reflects on the rep of the program. There were residents at UIC and Advocate matching at UCSF for fellowship also. That's one thing you will learn on the interview trail--fellowships are not that competitive and no matter where you go you will in the end do well and make the same amount of money. This isn't med school with "US News" rankings. So I guess in a sense, relax, and go where you will be happy. You already "made it" in my book.
Hope that is helpful....
-Northwestern.
Big program, 8 residents, the "best" location. This is my home school. I can tell you from spending four years here and doing two radiology rotations that the attendings range from some of the nicest funniest people you have ever met in your life, to people that just downright hate being a radiologist. If you look at where all the attendings went to school and/or trained they are from all over the country and have a very wide range of residency, both good and bad. This can be bad because if you want to stay in Chicago many of these attendings aren't as well connected. It can be good because they are more connected to other areas of the country. The equipment is state of the art. Residents didn't seem super happy. Most of them griped to me about the work and told me to look elsewhere. Take that for what its worth. IMO this is not so much a problem of Northwestern but the residents come from the most elite schools and IMO some of them have a sense of entitlement and are pissed that they have to work hard and read films all day. Northwestern is a top program, more clinically focused and not as academic as UofC. That generally means that the residents "read more films" and "take more call." Hence the griping? NU is a level I trauma center so be aware of that on the trail with ANY program--ask if it is level I trauma. If it is, more work for you and very little gain for board prep. Resident placement seems to vary--obviously overall very strong both locally and abroad, but in the end I would say MOST of the residents seem to be from all over the country and end up going back there after residency, not as many stay in Chicago. Great program overall, kind of like a top clinical program if your goal is to end up on the coasts.
-UChicago.
7 residents. The best call schedule in the city. Talking to other practicing radiologists around the city they kind of view the program as geared towards academics and not towards private practice (which is where you make all the money and where my goals were). I'm sure you can get a job in private practice pretty easy from here, but just know that you will be doing a lot of research and doing a lot of talks, and the goal is to get you into academic radiology. Just changed program director's last year so that is usually not a good sign. But it's hard to mess with University of Chicago as a name. Not a level I trauma center so that means your life will be better. Located in a "struggling" area of the city so be aware of that. Haven't really talked with the residents, but I know one fellow at NU that had their residency here and they "hated" it for what it's worth. They were not happy at all. He was plenty happy at NU though. I didn't bother asking much about that but I can't imagine why after seeing their call schedule at UofC. I have a feeling its because the program is in a flux and the whole atmosphere at UofC is to get you into research and academics. I think this guy just wanted a good private practice job and wanted to be a good radiologist, not necessarily research anything. The UofC hospitals as a whole, as great and respected as they are, are struggling with money and many of the attendings in various fields are looking for jobs elsewhere, so be aware of that. All being said, if you are a resident here you will do well and I'm sure be able to practice wherever you want, academic or otherwise. I'd rank the program high if your goal is academics or you want to end up on the coasts.
-Rush.
Large academic medical center as are the programs above. Solid "second best" program in the city after NU/UofC which are pretty much tied for best rep, though pretty much everyone I talked to put Rush/UofC/NU/Loyola all in the same vein and of the same reputation as being "equally great," at least locally here in Chicago. That's a direct quote from two fellowship directors. Anyways, Rush has state of the art equiment like the above programs and is building a $700 million new hospital with a sick new interventional platform shared with orthopaedic, general and neurosurgery that will be done by the time you get there (2012). Just got a $20 million infusion of cash from a donor specifically to build a Center for Advanced Imaging too which just might end up being the best in the city when complete. Smaller program for you, only five residents. Probably means more call than average so be aware of that. You will do more clinically here than the above two programs. Not as much research, more preparing you for a private practice job and hooking you up with a job in Chicago. That seemed to be the goal: "You will be well prepared here, you can do research if you want to, and we will hook you up with the best jobs in Chicago." Kind of evident by their attendings and match list, which were pretty much 100% people from Chicago or Chicago-area medical schools. Residents seemed the happiest out of all programs IMO. Laid back, none of the attendings OR residents were wearing white coats. The nicest program director by far. Everyone was just super happy and social and laid back. Anyways, I would rank this program high if you are looking for excellent placement for local Chicago jobs, but I wouldn't rank Rush high if your goal is eventually California or NYC as Rush is well known and well connected in the upper midwest, especially Chicago, but not so much outside of it. That said, like all programs you will see in here, fellowship placement is excellent and you can go anywhere in the country for fellowships.
-Loyola.
Hardest working residents in the area, and everyone knows it. Very formal feeling, everyone was wearing white coats and there was very little joking around and laughing among residents and attendings unlike Rush. Located in the basement which is honestly very depressing. Yes you are in a dark room, but this was depressing. Chicago > Maywood, so location goes to NU/UIC/Rush/Masonic for best location by far. On the plus side, excellent, excellent job placement. Private practice guys really view Loyola residents as some of if not the best in the city so if you go here you will have no problem finding a great private practice job that pays very very well. Not that the other programs are a slouch at all but Loyola is viewed particularly well for this. All being said, ranked them low because of depressing environment that felt really formal. I mean even in the reading rooms white coats were "required" which I thought was a little too strict for me. Not laid back at all. But overall a very solid program that like Rush, NU and UofC, I couldn't find a single radiologist that thought a bad thing about it and had nothing but great things to say about it. Like Rush, I would rank Loyola high if you are looking for excellent local job placement after residency.
-UIC.
Big program, 8 residents. Residents seemed happy and laid back, but the equipment and hospital is very dated. They desperately need some of that Obama stimulus for a new hospital or something. That said, this is the ONLY program that I heard "bad things" about when talking to other radiologists and students in the area. Most just said that "it used to be a great program, but now it has some problems." That was coming from a couple radiologists. I guess those "problems" are with disorganization and switching around program directors and the level of the equipment. Another program with a brand new program director this year, never a great sign but who knows, maybe the new guy is really good. It is also an unorganized, big university place, for better and for worse. Better for you because you can probably sneak out and take less call, but worse because it appears many people are on to this. It is also a big program that doesn't do a ton of studies, and is not level I trauma, yet it has 8 residents, so do the math--you probably won't work all that hard. This is a good thing for you IMO but a bad thing for rep. Also I know around 8 UIC students and none of them said they were ranking UIC number 1 for rads. That was a bad sign IMO. Overall I wanted to like this program more but it was the only one of the big programs that I consistently heard semi-bad things about, and after awhile you begin to wonder. Nothing serious though that will affect your job placement, but enough to make you note they aren't on the same level as the above programs. My advisor at NU thought very highly of this program though. I have two friends who matched at UIC and they are really smart and ranked it right behind places like Penn and I'm sure they will get great jobs. All in all, it sounds like a "bad" program but it really isn't. The thing you get on the interview trail is that no matter where you go, you will be able to get an "elite" fellowship because fellowships just aren't that competitive to get, so relax even if you get into a place that has some "bad reps" about it. It's more hearsay than anything and I know radiologists at Northwestern that went to UIC and they look the same as everyone else.
-Cook.
Four residents, you are at Cook County. What more needs to be said. You will be SUPER-UBER-trained but you will also take a ton of call. They just got their first 64-slice CT last year (!) so the equipment is really dated, perhaps the worst in the city for equipment. It's Cook County what do you expect. No one will blame you for it--this is real medicine, where the tire meets the road. For better and for worse. They didn't even have a web site, put it that way. But the residents were happy and laid back, and no one can screw with you having gone to residency at perhaps the craziest hospital in the city. One of the residents said they averaged 50 CT reads a day! That is almost private practice numbers! Program director is super laid back, almost too much so. Seems to not agree with the ACGME and American Society of Radiology on a lot of things which worried me. But one of the perks of Cook is you will make the most money during residency. Residents were averaging over $60k/year because they can moonlight often. I'm sure the job placement is excellent coming from here too, who wouldn't hire someone who is already pretty much fully trained in private practice.
-Advocate Masonic.
Very surprising program with a strong local reputation. 3 residents, very small program, a ton of call. Probably the most call in the city. What I feel is the best location by far, well above NU. Right in the heart of Lincoln Park, the nicest neighborhood in the city. Residents seemed very average on the happiness level. It was more like "eh, it's residency how happy should I be." That said, this is a very strong program that will get you a great job and has a great rep. Fellowship placement on par with any of the above programs. When talking with my advisor about local programs he put Advocate right up there with all the other programs above. 17th highest board scores in the country--no one fails because they see so much and take so much call. That said, don't go here if you want a big program or want to do a lot of research. And don't rank them high if your goal is California or NYC. They will probably have never heard of the place.
-St. Francis.
Ahhhh St. Francis. I feel sorry for these guys in a way. Did you know this is the second oldest residency program IN THE COUNTRY? It's been around that long! Small program, takes 2 residents and only interviews 25 people per year. Sometimes doesn't fill. Very small community hospital in a very nice suburb. Residents seemed happy but they take a lot of call, and the huge red flag to me was their board pass rate. The board pass rate of all of the above programs, maybe minus Cook County, hovers around 100%. For St. Francis it was 65%. For that reason alone I ended up not ranking them at all. That said, their fellowship and job placement is as strong as ANY of the above programs. Residents go on to fellowships at Harvard, UCSF, Michigan, etc. Amazing! But remember, fellowship placements in general are not totally competitive like Rad residency, so I'm not sure how much that reflects on the rep of the program. There were residents at UIC and Advocate matching at UCSF for fellowship also. That's one thing you will learn on the interview trail--fellowships are not that competitive and no matter where you go you will in the end do well and make the same amount of money. This isn't med school with "US News" rankings. So I guess in a sense, relax, and go where you will be happy. You already "made it" in my book.
Hope that is helpful....
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yoyoniner,
thanks for your awesome post...you mentioned that you interviewd at Wisconsin programs. I was wondering if you could outline those also....specifically MCW, UofW, and St.Lukes/Aurora. Thanks again, the post was very informative.
thanks for your awesome post...you mentioned that you interviewd at Wisconsin programs. I was wondering if you could outline those also....specifically MCW, UofW, and St.Lukes/Aurora. Thanks again, the post was very informative.
-MCW.
In my opinion this was one of the best programs I visited. I can't think of a single knock against it from a practice perspective. The facilities are as nice as any at Northwestern yet the residents seemed a lot happier. Very laid back program. Like Rush none of the attendings/residents were wearing white coats. IMO that is always a good sign as to how laid back a place is. Big program. 8 residents. No idea about their workload but I'm sure it is "average" given the number of residents to number of studies. Only problem for me were all the residents were married and from Wisconsin. I don't think I met anyone who wasn't from Wisconsin or Minnesota among the 7 or so residents I met with. That is not a bad thing by any means but I am neither married nor am I from Wisconsin. Milwaukee is a great city, very under-rated. But it is no Chicago, especially for a single person as you grow older. That said, top notch facilities and you can tell this program has a very bright future. Lots of room for expansion and top notch equipment. Great regional reputation. MCW's reputation extends beyond Milwaukee and into Chicago certainly.
-St. Luke's.
Medium size program, 6 residents. Besides Rush these were the happiest residents I saw on the interview trail. I mean their AM conference was basically like a party. Huge hospital. Community hospital, yes, but the sickest community hospital I've ever seen. Facilities are gorgeous. 12 IR attendings, probably the most of any of the above programs. That's a lot of IR going on. Again, in suburban Milwaukee with not much going on for a single guy like me. Shared many of their rotations with MCW residents at Froedterdt. The only knock I could see was that it didn't really have much of a reputation here in Chicago. Many people said they didn't know anything about it. No one had an opinion on it one war or another. This is mostly a bad thing I suppose, though a lot of Chicago radiologists didn't have much of an opinion about MCW either. It just goes to show you that with residency you end up usually practicing in the same location as where you do residency, so be aware of that. St. Luke's also has a couple foreign grads and DO's which I personally don't mind, but it CAN be a sign that it isn't as competitive of a place to go. But I can't really find a serious knock against the place. The residents were VERY happy and the facilities are great. Not as great as MCW but still fantastic. And you will be well trained.
-UW.
Did not interview at UofW, and I personally know of no one at Northwestern that did. Maybe they figure why would someone from Chicago want to live in Madison? No idea but have no opinion on it. I'm sure its a good program, but I'm glad they didn't interview me because I didn't have to think twice about ranking them and whether I could stand to live in Madison, which is a great town but just not super great when you are 27 years old. It's a 100% college town for better and for worse. I've heard nothing but good things about UofW though.
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how competitive in terms of step 1, grades do you think we have to be to match into these programs?
