Choice of specialty with dismissed charge?

[deleted964256]

.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

I mean, you should always answer questions truthfully on any application and be prepared to give an answer and how it was a mistake and how you've grown up since that time in an interview BUT...

Nobody cares that you were caught with pot... unless we are talking kilos with an intent to sell. Most of that crap is legal now anyways.

If some gets an interview and you don't, it wasn't cause of pot... it's cause their application was better (scores, LOR, ECs, etc).

 

[deleted964256]

I mean, you should always answer questions truthfully on any application and be prepared to give an answer and how it was a mistake and how you've grown up since that time in an interview BUT...

Nobody cares that you were caught with pot... unless we are talking kilos with an intent to sell. Most of that crap is legal now anyways.

If some gets an interview and you don't, it wasn't cause of pot... it's cause their application was better (scores, LOR, ECs, etc).

Appreciate the response !

 

[nimbus]

I know plenty of ophthalmologists who have smoked weed. Legal issues aside, you’ll have a lot of company.

 

[Dryad8212]

For the love of god, Legalize the Ganja !

On a serious note what happens to someone who fails a drug test due to MJ during residency? Do they kick you out or something?

 

[sloop]

For the love of god, Legalize the Ganja !

On a serious note what happens to someone who fails a drug test due to MJ during residency? Do they kick you out or something?

Probably depends on where you are. They certainly could fire you, but it’s probably more likely that you’ll be strongly reprimanded or made to undergo some form of substance abuse treatment as part of a physician diversion program. How far it goes probably has a lot to do with who is dealing with the issue snd how far up in the administration it’s been escalated to.

At a lot of programs, firing a resident winds up causing a ton of problems and can create real staffing issues. Places really want to avoid that.

 

[Dryad8212]

Probably depends on where you are. They certainly could fire you, but it’s probably more likely that you’ll be strongly reprimanded or made to undergo some form of substance abuse treatment as part of a physician diversion program. How far it goes probably has a lot to do with who is dealing with the issue snd how far up in the administration it’s been escalated to.

At a lot of programs, firing a resident winds up causing a ton of problems and can create real staffing issues. Places really want to avoid that.

You think they are more lenient in which states marijuana is legalized recreationally ? I am curious.

 

[sloop]

You think they are more lenient in which states marijuana is legalized recreationally ? I am curious.

I honestly have no idea.

 

[Candidate2017]

You think they are more lenient in which states marijuana is legalized recreationally ? I am curious.

Probably not. Probably also program dependent. A psychiatry program with residents openly wearing nose rings, piercings, tattoos, and unconventional hairstyles, is going to be different from an ENT program where business attire is required for clinic.

Probably should also lay off the MJ at least until you get a full license. A single positive cannabis test can interfere with state licensing, controlled substance licensing, DEA licensing, hospital credentialing. Being sent to a physician drug program is very time consuming and costly and will likely have to be disclosed on licensing and credentialing applications.

 

[deleted964256]

.

 

[Dryad8212]

Probably not. Probably also program dependent. A psychiatry program with residents openly wearing nose rings, piercings, tattoos, and unconventional hairstyles, is going to be different from an ENT program where business attire is required for clinic.

Probably should also lay off the MJ at least until you get a full license. A single positive cannabis test can interfere with state licensing, controlled substance licensing, DEA licensing, hospital credentialing. Being sent to a physician drug program is very time consuming and costly and will likely have to be disclosed on licensing and credentialing applications.

Wouldn't an attending physician also have difficulties getting his license back

Personally I’ve written off the stuff forever. Never worth that risk again. It’s what I always told my premed friends in college, it’ll never be worth it in this career.

Hopefully under the BIden administration, things change.

 

[sloop]

Wouldn't an attending physician also have difficulties getting his license back

Just as it is easier to deny a law school graduate entry to the bar than it is to disbar a practicing attorney, so too is it easier to deny a doctor licensure than to revoke the license of a practicing physician.

Essentially, granting licensure is a simple administrative decision of the state medical board. Revoking a license is also an administrative decision but in most cases involves some degree of inherent due process. You’ll usually have an opportunity to defend against a board action but you won’t necessarily get the same opportunity for a denied license unless you sue the state medical board.

 

[Banco]

I think you'll be fine, this is a pretty minor thing in the grand scheme.

 

[MedScat]

As someone with a dismissed pretty serious charge myself, I am still unclear as to what licensure applications ask later on about criminal charges but I'll go over it with my lawyer when the time comes. Regardless, I don't think specialty matters in this case. The ophthalmology board will care/not care about it just as much as the family med board.

 

[deleted964256]

.

 

[MedScat]

Certiphi does not bring it up, thankfully. I just have heard in some states medical boards have accessed to expunged/sealed records. Either way, thanks for the response. I’m definitely going to not let it limit what speciality I eventually want to go for. At that point it’ll be 10+ years in the past.

Yeah i edited my post because some quick research showed me they could see dismissed charged but either way, I don't think specialty would make a difference. Also if any attendings out there can tell us more about the licensure criminal background questions please let us know!

 

[Med Ed]

Certiphi does not bring it up, thankfully. I just have heard in some states medical boards have access to expunged/sealed records. Either way, thanks for the response. I’m definitely going to not let it limit what speciality I eventually want to go for. At that point it’ll be 10+ years in the past.

Certiphi actually does a more thorough job than most state medical boards, who will make a NCIC inquiry (FBI database) and state police inquiry (for the state the board is in).

 

[MedScat]

Certiphi actually does a more thorough job than most state medical boards, who will make a NCIC inquiry (FBI database) and state police inquiry (for the state the board is in).

Certiphi doesn't look for dismissed charges or arrests though it only looks for convictions....is this the same for state medical boarding?

 

[Med Ed]

Yeah i edited my post because some quick research showed me they could see dismissed charged but either way, I don't think specialty would make a difference. Also if any attendings out there can tell us more about the licensure criminal background questions please let us know!

If you're really curious just pick some states, Google the medical boards, and start the license applications. Some have PDFs, some are completely online, some are hybrid. You will quickly find out that there is almost no consistency in what they ask about. Some want to know everything regardless of disposition, some let you leave off misdemeanors that are over a certain age, some specifically exclude incidents that have been sealed or expunged, some don't really specify. Some want only convictions, some want arrests. The number that require fingerprint checks has increased greatly in the last 10 years.

Certiphi doesn't look for dismissed charges or arrests though it only looks for convictions....is this the same for state medical boarding?

Certiphi can absolutely find arrest records, it depends on what level of inquiry the school asks for. More importantly, it depends on what the locality where the arrest was made decides to do with the information.

 

[Mass Effect]

I think you'll be fine, this is a pretty minor thing in the grand scheme.

This is inaccurate. Most programs have a zero tolerance policy against any illegal drug and marijuana is still illegal federally. You could be dismissed. You could also be reported to your state's physician health program for a diversion program and you don't want any piece of that. Trust me when I tell you, it will bankrupt you and you'll spend years taking random drug tests (that you pay out of pocket for) whenever they want or else you face consequences.

There was a post on the residency forum last year about someone post-match but before starting residency being in trouble due to marijuana and drug testing prior to starting intern year.

 

[Lawpy]

Right before my freshman year I was charged with marijuana possession on campus, but it was dismissed via a diversion program and the charge was "expunged and sealed."

Why would they expunge/seal the charge if it's dismissed? Dismissed means the charges are completely eliminated and so there's no record at all.

The fact that a record exists and is sealed unfortunately means you need to report it and be transparent. Expungement is pretty useless i know.

 

[Lawpy]

This is inaccurate. Most programs have a zero tolerance policy against any illegal drug and marijuana is still illegal federally. You could be dismissed. You could also be reported to your state's physician health program for a diversion program and you don't want any piece of that. Trust me when I tell you, it will bankrupt you and you'll spend years taking random drug tests (that you pay out of pocket for) whenever they want or else you face consequences.

There was a post on the residency forum last year about someone post-match but before starting residency being in trouble due to marijuana and drug testing prior to starting intern year.

Something has gone very, very wrong in society if marijuana is still illegal and enough to dismiss an incoming intern in 2020...

 

[Banco]

This is inaccurate. Most programs have a zero tolerance policy against any illegal drug and marijuana is still illegal federally. You could be dismissed. You could also be reported to your state's physician health program for a diversion program and you don't want any piece of that. Trust me when I tell you, it will bankrupt you and you'll spend years taking random drug tests (that you pay out of pocket for) whenever they want or else you face consequences.

There was a post on the residency forum last year about someone post-match but before starting residency being in trouble due to marijuana and drug testing prior to starting intern year.

I get if it's more recent, during training, or someone has issues with drug testing, but are programs really going to hold it so seriously if it was a high school marijuana possession charge? It'll be 10+ years old and really minor all things considered...

 

[Med Ed]

Why would they expunge/seal the charge if it's dismissed? Dismissed means the charges are completely eliminated and so there's no record at all.

The fact that a record exists and is sealed unfortunately means you need to report it and be transparent. Expungement is pretty useless i know.

An arrest generates paperwork. A charge generates paperwork. The disposition (dropped, dismissed, convicted, acquitted, etc.) generates paperwork. Just because a charge is dismissed does not mean the associated paperwork vanishes. It just means the court has made a cost-benefit determination that proceeding with the charge isn't worth it.

Expungement is not useless, and if you have a copy of the court order to seal/expunge the case records then the law is (partially) on your side, especially if you apply for a medical license in a state that specifically excludes reporting of sealed/expunged cases. Texas and Indiana both come to mind. The effects of expungement vary from place to place, however, something that helps keep criminal defense attorneys in business.

The contents of one's criminal record should not be a mystery. Anyone can see their FBI rap sheet in about a day by using an approved channeler. Anyone should be able to get an official copy of their criminal records from state police and/or local authorities. This is good to know in case there are errors, particularly when identity theft has become so common.

 

[Lawpy]

An arrest generates paperwork. A charge generates paperwork. The disposition (dropped, dismissed, convicted, acquitted, etc.) generates paperwork. Just because a charge is dismissed does not mean the associated paperwork vanishes. It just means the court has made a cost-benefit determination that proceeding with the charge isn't worth it.

Expungement is not useless, and if you have a copy of the court order to seal/expunge the case records then the law is (partially) on your side, especially if you apply for a medical license in a state that specifically excludes reporting of sealed/expunged cases. Texas and Indiana both come to mind. The effects of expungement vary from place to place, however, something that helps keep criminal defense attorneys in business.

The contents of one's criminal record should not be a mystery. Anyone can see their FBI rap sheet in about a day by using an approved channeler. Anyone should be able to get an official copy of their criminal records from state police and/or local authorities. This is good to know in case there are errors, particularly when identity theft has become so common.

But there are instances where the charges are completely dismissed with records destroyed right (like if someone is completely exonerated from a crime)? Why would the paperwork be sealed (and thus gives an opportunity to be unsealed in future) in these cases if these charges are effectively shown to be false?

I know it's going deep into legal stuff but when AMCAS, ERAS, licensing boards usually require full disclosure of expunged/sealed charges, it becomes a problem when any arrest and charge even for false and mistaken reasons is automatically sealed and not destroyed

 

[Goro]

But there are instances where the charges are completely dismissed with records destroyed right (like if someone is completely exonerated from a crime)? Why would the paperwork be sealed (and thus gives an opportunity to be unsealed in future) in these cases if these charges are effectively shown to be false?

I know it's going deep into legal stuff but when AMCAS, ERAS, licensing boards usually require full disclosure of expunged/sealed charges, it becomes a problem when any arrest and charge even for false and mistaken reasons is automatically sealed and not destroyed

I think that you are better off asking the state legislatures that Drew up these laws in the first place.

 

[Lawpy]

I think that you are better off asking the state legislatures that Drew up these laws in the first place.

But what about things like AMCAS/AACOMAS/ERAS? Really the only thing to do is to basically disclose the charges, expunged or dismissed or whatever etc since adcoms expect honesty and can somehow view expunged charges.

 

[Goro]

But what about things like AMCAS/AACOMAS/ERAS? Really the only thing to do is to basically disclose the charges, expunged or dismissed or whatever etc since adcoms expect honesty and can somehow view expunged charges.

I can't answer for accrediting bodies, but you're taking the argument that "The State said that there are no records! No one should be able to see them, even if they do exist!". I can only surmise that context is everything, and Med Ed explained it from the other side far better than I can.

In addition, I can only speculate that the fear of future litigation should a graduate commit some wrong lead the complaining party to ask "Why did you admit or hire this person when you knew they did X Y and Z??!!" might be also a driver in background checks.

But again, that's a question better asked elsewhere.

 

[deleted964256]

.

 

[Med Ed]

But there are instances where the charges are completely dismissed with records destroyed right (like if someone is completely exonerated from a crime)? Why would the paperwork be sealed (and thus gives an opportunity to be unsealed in future) in these cases if these charges are effectively shown to be false?

I know it's going deep into legal stuff but when AMCAS, ERAS, licensing boards usually require full disclosure of expunged/sealed charges, it becomes a problem when any arrest and charge even for false and mistaken reasons is automatically sealed and not destroyed

I believe record destruction is more common for charges that are dropped rather than dismissed. But this usually comes down to the idiosyncrasies of the thousands of courts operating in different localities around the country. I think many (most?) places will destroy sealed records after some period of time, but YMMV.

As an aside, in my opinion the reason that some medical boards ask such probing questions isn't because they are all-knowing. Quite the opposite. They are in fact somewhat limited in their ability to interrogate an applicant's past, and therefore have to rely on the application questions as a form of confessional.

One of the more depressing realizations I have had over the last year is how much of the American justice system, from law enforcement to the courts, follows a basic template established in the Jim Crow south to disenfranchise certain voters. Relatively affluent individuals can often buy leniency in ways that others cannot.

Thinking about the OP's situation, the idea that a physician should have to disclose the time he was busted with a joint as a teenager is, on its face, utterly ridiculous. I think background checks should be more limited in scope than they generally are these days, but we're still living in a post-9/11 world.

 

[deleted964256]

.

 

[MedScat]

I just matched derm with two dismissed and expunged charges. Never had to disclose them on applications or with state licensure, but make sure you always read the questions incredibly closely to determine whether or not you’re required to disclose. Oddly, I did have to disclose for medical school apps though and I happily did. Pursue opthalmology and forget about this for now. I remember searching for old forums regarding this topic when I was an M1 also.

When you graduate residency, is the a different license you have to apply for that will do a more stringent background check? I guess this will be state dependent actually....
Just out of curiosity, if the charge was dismissed and expunged, why would you have to disclose that to medical school and not to residency?

 

[Candidate2017]

When you graduate residency, is the a different license you have to apply for that will do a more stringent background check? I guess this will be state dependent actually....
Just out of curiosity, if the charge was dismissed and expunged, why would you have to disclose that to medical school and not to residency?

Same app process for a training vs full license. Med schools, state licensing, DEA, and hospitals are all different entities, so they all vary in what kind of background info they require, including medical and psychiatric info.

Only a training license is needed in residency. However, after 1-2 years (depending on state), you are eligible to apply for a full license. Some people don't bother until end of residency, which is a bad idea. A full license can easily double or triple your residency pay, via moonlighting. Note that California changed their law to require 3 years (!) of residency completion for full license eligibility, which absurdly decreases the pool of residents for moonlighting and shuts out 3 year specialty residents (FM/IM/EM/peds).

More importantly, a full license is not a guaranteed right. Whereas once you get a full license, there are strong constitutional rights against taking it. So grab that full license ASAP. That's the point of going through med school: to attain the right to practice medicine (the other part is to become fully trained/board certified). A single lapse in judgment (DUI, +UDS, viral videotaped rant against an Uber driver etc) or false accusation (angry ex, disgruntled opioid-seeking patient etc) can significantly derail your ability to get a full license and jeopardize your years of hard work.

 

[TragicalDrFaust]

You think they are more lenient in which states marijuana is legalized recreationally ? I am curious.

I'm in NV where marijuana is legal recreationally. Employers legally cannot refuse to hire someone based on their testing positive for marijuana UNLESS alertness and attention to detail are deemed necessary for protecting people's physical safety on the job. So first responders and healthcare professionals can probably be fired for smoking but at a 9-5 where you don't hold people's lives in your hands, you have some protection under the law.