Choosing the right school for specializing?

[NorCalGuy]

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Hi everyone, there is a topic I would like to discuss and achieve answers for.

Question: What factors about a dental school make entrance into a post doc specialty "easier"? Not necessarily the school that prepares you the best,but the school that has the highest likelihood of you succeeding into a post doc like OS, ortho, pedo, prostho, endo etc.

Form the research that I have gathered, it seems like the 4 biggest factors of leading a D student into specialities are
1) Dental School GPA,
2) Dental School Class Rank,
3) Board Scores,
4) Personal Connections and recommendations.

5- Reputation does not seem to carry much weight, if at all.

I have also heard that recently the board exams have become P/F, and a few schools like Colombia,UCSF, Harvard, etc use the PF Grading system and only rank the top third of their classes, which actually makes their application for specialty residencies be seen as "Missing a piece of the puzzle".

Similar to going to a less competitive high school, or ug, one is able to be the "big fish in the little pond" and enter the next level much more "easily" due to a lower intraclass competition (Which affects GPA, Ranking, and even possibly LOR's). I would say that someone going to a "Lower tier" state school and getting a 3.8 GPA and top of the class is much more competetive for med/dent school than someone who went to a "Top Tier" school like UC Berkely with a 3.3GPA and middle of the class, assuming standardized test scores are the same(which are self studyable and dependent mostly on the student, not the school). I would like to take this concept to the next level between the transition of Dental School and competetive Post Doc residencies. I would assume that it would be more pheasable to be top 20 at BU than being top 20 at UoP (both have comparative class sizes).

My personal situation is between UoP and BU, and am hoping if you can shed some light on which might be a better choice for specializing further down the line. Both are ABC +/- grading system, but one school(UoP) is MUCH more clinically advanced, treat their students well, but has a much greater calibur of students in terms of competition. BU seems to be backup school for most people, and it wouldn't be too wrong to assume that more "Lesser qualified" attend BU in comparison, hence a lower level of intraclass competition which may lead to a higher likelihood of being the "Big fish in the little pond" in comparison. I am well aware that one is able to specialize from either school, but these two schools almost seem to be on polar spectrums and am curious to know what most of you all think!

I apologize if anything I said came off as offensive to anyone, I do not think any dental schools are necessarily better than another, but acknowledge there are large differences that can change the way one might decide between them.

BU vs UoP?

 

[deleted659902]

Hi everyone, there is a topic I would like to discuss and achieve answers for.

Question: What factors about a dental school make entrance into a post doc specialty "easier"? Not necessarily the school that prepares you the best,but the school that has the highest likelihood of you succeeding into a post doc like OS, ortho, pedo, prostho, endo etc.

Form the research that I have gathered, it seems like the 4 biggest factors of leading a D student into specialities are
1) Dental School GPA,
2) Dental School Class Rank,
3) Board Scores,
4) Personal Connections and recommendations.

5- Reputation does not seem to carry much weight, if at all.

I have also heard that recently the board exams have become P/F, and a few schools like Colombia,UCSF, Harvard, etc use the PF Grading system and only rank the top third of their classes, which actually makes their application for specialty residencies be seen as "Missing a piece of the puzzle".

Similar to going to a less competitive high school, or ug, one is able to be the "big fish in the little pond" and enter the next level much more "easily" due to a lower intraclass competition (Which affects GPA, Ranking, and even possibly LOR's). I would say that someone going to a "Lower tier" state school and getting a 3.8 GPA and top of the class is much more competetive for med/dent school than someone who went to a "Top Tier" school like UC Berkely with a 3.3GPA and middle of the class, assuming standardized test scores are the same(which are self studyable and dependent mostly on the student, not the school). I would like to take this concept to the next level between the transition of Dental School and competetive Post Doc residencies. I would assume that it would be more pheasable to be top 20 at BU than being top 20 at UoP (both have comparative class sizes).

My personal situation is between UoP and BU, and am hoping if you can shed some light on which might be a better choice for specializing further down the line. Both are ABC +/- grading system, but one school(UoP) is MUCH more clinically advanced, treat their students well, but has a much greater calibur of students in terms of competition. BU seems to be backup school for most people, and it wouldn't be too wrong to assume that more "Lesser qualified" attend BU in comparison, hence a lower level of intraclass competition which may lead to a higher likelihood of being the "Big fish in the little pond" in comparison. I am well aware that one is able to specialize from either school, but these two schools almost seem to be on polar spectrums and am curious to know what most of you all think!

I apologize if anything I said came off as offensive to anyone, I do not think any dental schools are necessarily better than another, but acknowledge there are large differences that can change the way one might decide between them.

BU vs UoP?

I had a similar mindset as yours when I entered dental school but quickly realized that no dental school is "small pond," especially BU and UoP. I'd say the top 10% of any dental school is of similar, if not equal, caliber that it really doesn't matter where you go for school even if you are set on specializing. Personally, I can't imagine going through the dental curriculum in just three years with minimal breaks, so I'd choose BU.

Just as side info, the commonly thrown around "top 10%" dogma on sdn mostly applies to hypercompetitive specialties: orthodontics and oral surgery. Apparently ranking in the top 10% dramatically increases one's chance of receiving ortho/OS residency interviews. So if you are set on less competitive specialties, then even top 20-25% may be sufficient for making the initial cut.

 

[deleted616533]

P

 

[NorCalGuy]

Just as side info, the commonly thrown around "top 10%" dogma on sdn mostly applies to hypercompetitive specialties: orthodontics and oral surgery. Apparently ranking in the top 10% dramatically increases one's chance of receiving ortho/OS residency interviews. So if you are set on less competitive specialties, then even top 20-25% may be sufficient for making the initial cut.

I've been told even the top third of schools end up having a pretty good chance at specialties like prosthodontics. This is where my question comes up of if it would be better to go to BU due to having a greater number of "lesser quality" students in comparison to compete with (as well as a less condensed curriculum to fit in research). Someone rank 50/150 at UoP, I believe (After interviewing, talking to them, and having professors there personally tell me) could very likely be 20/100 at a school such as BU. The biggest drawback of BU is the crap that it gets for poor organization, lack of patients, and overall lower tiered clinical training (But I would assume all this doesn't really matter if one goes on to specialize).
Still debating this question in my mind.

At Harvard and Columbia, 95% of students specialize, so obviously the pass/fail system has very little to do with being accepted to a residency. At other schools, including BU and UoP, it is difficult to enter a residency if you are not in the top 10% of your class. .

I completely agree that the P/F grading seems to have little to do with being accepted to residency. In fact, I think it's almost "omitted" in a way, as adcoms have said schools with PF are "missing part of the puzzle", so they will put more weight into other things such as LOR's and research. In this case, I would actually argue that BU would be better than UoP in the sense that it would be less condensed and provide more time to research/ec's that you wouldn't be able to do in the 3 condensed years at UoP. Though I am absolutely certain UoP's clinical facilities and patient pools blows BU out of the water a tenfold, and is the absolute best school for anyone who wants to do GP in the future. But better for specializing? Thats what Im asking 🙂

 

[DentalDoge]

I've been told even the top third of schools end up having a pretty good chance at specialties like prosthodontics. This is where my question comes up of if it would be better to go to BU due to having a greater number of "lesser quality" students in comparison to compete with (as well as a less condensed curriculum to fit in research). Someone rank 50/150 at UoP, I believe (After interviewing, talking to them, and having professors there personally tell me) could very likely be 20/100 at a school such as BU. The biggest drawback of BU is the crap that it gets for poor organization, lack of patients, and overall lower tiered clinical training (But I would assume all this doesn't really matter if one goes on to specialize).
Still debating this question in my mind.



I completely agree that the P/F grading seems to have little to do with being accepted to residency. In fact, I think it's almost "omitted" in a way, as adcoms have said schools with PF are "missing part of the puzzle", so they will put more weight into other things such as LOR's and research. In this case, I would actually argue that BU would be better than UoP in the sense that it would be less condensed and provide more time to research/ec's that you wouldn't be able to do in the 3 condensed years at UoP. Though I am absolutely certain UoP's clinical facilities and patient pools blows BU out of the water a tenfold, and is the absolute best school for anyone who wants to do GP in the future. But better for specializing? Thats what Im asking 🙂

BU never responded to me, so I cant say how well BU is at preparing you for specialty. As far as I can tell, a well written LOR by a person who is well-regarded in the specialty will take you a long way. And I am not sure if BU has someone like that in their faculty.

Sure class rank is important but I find that specialized examination scores are more important. Since NBDE is p/f now, the only way specialties can assess you, testing-wise, is through other testing services.

 

[UCLADDS2015]

Do not assume just because BU is a "lesser quality" school that the top 10% of students there are not competitive, especially at a school with such a large class size. People that end up matching into a competitive specialty match because of their own innate qualities and less so because of what school they attended. I would pick UoP over BU in a heartbeat since both schools are expensive and UoP is only 3 years. I've never been to BU but UoP's facilities, clinical experience and curriculum are 2nd to none. Even if you don't match your first year applying coming out of UoP you have an extra year to re-apply and strenghten your application.

 

[lexa_m]

I was happy to find this thread because I've been wondering some of the same things, specifically about board scores.. If boards are now P/F how can they be determined in an application for specialty programs? Unless, of course you failed...

 

[NorCalGuy]

Do not assume just because BU is a "lesser quality" school that the top 10% of students there are not competitive, especially at a school with such a large class size. People that end up matching into a competitive specialty match because of their own innate qualities and less so because of what school they attended. I would pick UoP over BU in a heartbeat since both schools are expensive and UoP is only 3 years. I've never been to BU but UoP's facilities, clinical experience and curriculum are 2nd to none. Even if you don't match your first year applying coming out of UoP you have an extra year to re-apply and strenghten your application.

I agree with you that the top 10% of any dental school is very competitive, but I also don't think it's wrong to assume that UoP has a greater # of more competitive students than BU especially when comparing the entering class statistics DAT, GPA, Age, and credentials of both schools.

Im throwing out a hypothetical situation here, but I would assume that the top 75/150 students at UoP are top notch cream of the cake selected applicants with the bottom 75/150 being not as competitive, while the top 30/115 at BU are equally as competitive as the top of UoP with 85/115 being not as top notch.

I guess my question is synonymous to this:
Which college should a high school student enter if his end goal is to enter a top medical school? UC Berkeley with a huge amount of top notch students or his State School with a fewer amount of top notch students? Taking into consideration grades, rec letters, and time for extracurriculars, I would choose his state school for him to shine and be the big fish in the small(er) pond

Wouldn't this be analogous to dental school if that high schooler were a senior college student, his college analogous to dental school, and his goal of getting into a top med school be analogous to specializing?

 

[kingme23]

The school you go to doesn't matter at all. The ivies don't "send" people into residencies, they have more people that go because they tend to attract the smartest and brightest students who are more likely to specialize. those people would have gotten into a residency anywhere they went to school.

 

[UCLADDS2015]

You should not be picking a school based on how easy you think it is to specialize coming out of there. First of all, you are not even in dental school yet, so how can you know you want to specialize at all? Secondly, it is irrelevant the exact # of students that is "smart" in a dental school class, especially given that both UoP and BU are ranked schools with a GPA. If one of the schools was P/F, it would be a different story. The top students in any dental school will be intelligent, hard working people. You will need to be near the top of the class (probably at least top 10-15 at least for ortho/OMFS) to specialize in the competitive specialties, so it is irrelevant what the top 50 are like, as the top 10-20 are the ones you are competing against.

 

[DentalDoge]

Exactly, every single OMS I have shadowed have all came from my school.

It's a good school and has amazing programs but it's not an Ivy league school.

It's up to YOU to decide if you want to specialize or not, not the school. Unless you picked LECOM or Tufts that specializes in pumping out GPs.