How will you pay for dental school?

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JacquesVallee said:

Someone on Reddit asked about what schools have said about the BBB in their dental school interviews. The responses (or lack thereof) from the dental schools says it all: they don't have a plan. Really pulling for expensive dental schools to not be able to fill their classes.

Here's an interesting response: "I had 4 interviews. I brought it up in every single one. The general response was “eh not our problem”. One school was downright hostile and offended that I would dare consider the cost. You’re on your own with private student loans."
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Dental schools:

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Big Hoss
 
I went to a private school and was curious what the 4 year expected cost of attendance is now for a new D1 that is married and with a young kid. I can't believe it's $815k when you factor accrued interest and living expenses. That is absolutely insane. For a single student with a roommate, total cost is estimated at $750k....still financial suicide. If you're not receiving a scholarship from HPSP or NHC or have parents paying 100% of your education, how are students realistically expected to pay this back?
 
customx said:
I went to a private school and was curious what the 4 year expected cost of attendance is now for a new D1 that is married and with a young kid. I can't believe it's $815k when you factor accrued interest and living expenses. That is absolutely insane. For a single student with a roommate, total cost is estimated at $750k....still financial suicide. If you're not receiving a scholarship from HPSP or NHC or have parents paying 100% of your education, how are students realistically expected to pay this back?
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they wouldn't be able to. I have to imagine banks will realize this too and deny them loans.
 
JacquesVallee said:
they wouldn't be able to. I have to imagine banks will realize this too and deny them loans.
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Do you believe that many students who get accepted to very expensive private OOS schools will be forced to rescind their acceptances because banks won't give them loans?
 
Exoticsky said:
Do you believe that many students who get accepted to very expensive private OOS schools will be forced to rescind their acceptances because banks won't give them loans?
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Yes. I think there will be a mad dash at the end. I could be wrong, but I have to imagine the private lenders will do the math and see they can't loan out this kind of money. The risk is too much.
 
Exoticsky said:
Do you believe that many students who get accepted to very expensive private OOS schools will be forced to rescind their acceptances because banks won't give them loans?
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affiemative...
 
Decline their acceptances... likely. Banks can also work with universities so we'll see with financial aid packages. Some banks are already advertising private loans for graduate education. Again, things can change...

Example (no compensation for sharing this)
www.sofi.com

Graduate Student Loans

SoFi makes it fast and easy to pay for grad school so you can focus on what matters the most: your degree.
www.sofi.com www.sofi.com
 
Mr.Smile12 said:
Decline their acceptances... likely. Banks can also work with universities so we'll see with financial aid packages. Some banks are already advertising private loans for graduate education. Again, things can change...

Example (no compensation for sharing this)
www.sofi.com

Graduate Student Loans

SoFi makes it fast and easy to pay for grad school so you can focus on what matters the most: your degree.
www.sofi.com www.sofi.com
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Most private lenders have a short time-frame for loan approvals. Generally, a borrower can't apply 6-months in advance of the start date of classes so that D1 financing is in place. This will shrink the time window and might lead to chaos for private schools trying to fill their classes.
 
JacquesVallee said:
Yes. I think there will be a mad dash at the end. I could be wrong, but I have to imagine the private lenders will do the math and see they can't loan out this kind of money. The risk is too much.
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You've changed your position, haven't you? If I recall correctly, you felt that private lenders were going to fill the void.
 
SigmaFS said:
You've changed your position, haven't you? If I recall correctly, you felt that private lenders were going to fill the void.
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Hmmm I don't remember my specific thoughts on whether or not private lenders would fill the gap. I very well may have said I thought they would though. I feel like generally I was mostly agnostic on it. My views did change in that I initially thought students wouldn't take out private loans for USC, but after meeting pre dents, holy cow I realized they would. Recently, my views have changed on private lender given the lack of answer from the schools and honestly just really thinking who in their right mind would lend 500k for a job that pays 120k. I think private lenders likely won't cover the gap. Schools are legit just telling students they're on their own, not a good sign for them. On the other hand, I still believe students would take the money no matter what.

Ultimately, all of my views are just speculation. We won't fully know until late Spring/early Summer. Should be interesting to see what happens.

What do you think will happen?
 
The private lenders might fill the gap to an extent; but certainly not a 400k gap
 
Exoticsky said:
Not sure if this has been deterring people, Tufts has gotten 4,800 applications so far this year, its most ever.. and I'm one of them. Although I have been strongly considering a switch to medicine with its lower COA and great guaranteed pay out of residency
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I would strongly urge anyone who is even remotely interested in medicine to choose that over dentistry.
 
customx said:
I went to a private school and was curious what the 4 year expected cost of attendance is now for a new D1 that is married and with a young kid. I can't believe it's $815k when you factor accrued interest and living expenses. That is absolutely insane. For a single student with a roommate, total cost is estimated at $750k....still financial suicide. If you're not receiving a scholarship from HPSP or NHC or have parents paying 100% of your education, how are students realistically expected to pay this back?
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Man.. I don't think I would choose dentistry if I were entering D1 married with a young kid. Unless, of course, your spouse makes 6 figures. Otherwise, if you don't get into a cheap school you will be screwed.
 
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New_Vegas said:
Man.. I don't think I would choose dentistry if I were entering D1 married with a young kid. Unless, of course, your spouse makes 6 figures. Otherwise, if you don't get into a cheap school you will be screwed.
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Big Time Hoosier said:
This.

Big Hoss
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Agreed, sadly. From a financial POV, dentistry clearly is not worth it even at average state school costs today.
 
Nursing programs are about to become real competitive
 
New_Vegas said:
I would strongly urge anyone who is even remotely interested in medicine to choose that over dentistry.
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Are private lenders really going to fill the gaps for med students, though? With residency requirements, it will be 7-10 years until their loans are paid back. Especially with the interest rates, those loans could be 800k by the time you're an attending.
 
michaeljj2021 said:
Are private lenders really going to fill the gaps for med students, though? With residency requirements, it will be 7-10 years until their loans are paid back. Especially with the interest rates, those loans could be 800k by the time you're an attending.
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Med school tuition is usually significantly cheaper and the earning potential is significantly higher.

Dentistry is cooked. I don’t recommend this profession any more. Sure, some will crush it and have a great ROI. Most dentists these days, not so much…

Big Hoss
 
Big Time Hoosier said:
Med school tuition is usually significantly cheaper and the earning potential is significantly higher.

Dentistry is cooked. I don’t recommend this profession any more. Sure, some will crush it and have a great ROI. Most dentists these days, not so much…

Big Hoss
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I just don't know if it makes sense from a private lender's perspective to give out 100k + in loans only for them to be paid back a decade later. Plus, I believe interest will compound in residency, so if it balloons to 800k, you're looking at almost 13k a month in repayment for another decade.
 
michaeljj2021 said:
Are private lenders really going to fill the gaps for med students, though? With residency requirements, it will be 7-10 years until their loans are paid back. Especially with the interest rates, those loans could be 800k by the time you're an attending.
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Med school is cheaper and the ROI is much better. I'm not so concerned about the lending process, rather what happens when you are out working in the field. Also, what about dental specialties? Well in most cases you get yourself in an even deeper mountain of debt compared to medicine, because at least in medicine all residents are getting paid and don't have tuition. Not the case with most dental residencies.
Big Time Hoosier said:
Med school tuition is usually significantly cheaper and the earning potential is significantly higher.

Dentistry is cooked. I don’t recommend this profession any more. Sure, some will crush it and have a great ROI. Most dentists these days, not so much…

Big Hoss
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Yep exactly, seems foolish to choose dentistry over medicine at this point.

I wish someone would have told me this before I got into it, I thought the "autonomy" and "business" aspects of dentistry would be a positive aspect to this career. Nope, it just makes it even more expensive to join, less profitable, more stressful, and higher risk. Sure, there's higher income potential as an owner in dentistry compared to an employee in dentistry, but that income potential of a dental owner pales in comparison to how much further ahead financially you would be if you just went to med school.
 
New_Vegas said:
I'm not so concerned about the lending process.
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The lending process is going to be a lot more important going forward. It would be a real shame if students didn't get covered by lenders to go to med school despite the process to get even a single acceptance.
 
michaeljj2021 said:
The lending process is going to be a lot more important going forward. It would be a real shame if students didn't get covered by lenders to go to med school despite the process to get even a single acceptance.
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I don't know why you think that will be a problem for medicine but not for dentistry. Med school costs less and doctors get paid more. Private lenders aren't idiots, and they will know this.
If anything, this will make things more difficult for dental students to get loans and not the other way around.
 
New_Vegas said:
I don't know why you think that will be a problem for medicine but not for dentistry. Med school costs less and doctors get paid more. Private lenders aren't idiots, and they will know this.
If anything, this will make things more difficult for dental students to get loans and not the other way around.
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I actually think it will be a significant problem in both cases. I don't see lenders giving away 100k + in loans only to have them be repaid 5-10 years later. I think med students borrow on the whole 5 billion a year in total. That's 30-50 billion in debt on their balance sheets. Add all the other professional students in too and you can see why private lenders never really got into the med/dental/law loan business, and probably why they won't anytime soon.
 
michaeljj2021 said:
I actually think it will be a significant problem in both cases. I don't see lenders giving away 100k + in loans only to have them be repaid 5-10 years later. I think med students borrow on the whole 5 billion a year in total. That's 30-50 billion in debt on their balance sheets. Add all the other professional students in too and you can see why private lenders never really got into the med/dental/law loan business, and probably why they won't anytime soon.
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Maybe some predent who didn’t follow our advice can document their nightmarish journey for us so we can see how it all plays out.

Big Hoss
 
JacquesVallee said:
@michaeljj2021 ROI for your average state med school graduate in significantly better than your average state dental school graduate. Med school costs a lot less and doctors make a lot more.
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I agree actually, but med school isn't really a great alternative. A 200k private loan compounding grows to 600k after 8 years of no payments at 15% interest. The minimum payments on that are over half of an attending internist's salary for 10 years.
 
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The fed is likely to keep lowering the interest rates, so the rates would likely not be as high by the Summer.
 
michaeljj2021 said:
I agree actually, but med school isn't really a great alternative. A 200k private loan compounding grows to 600k after 8 years of no payments at 15% interest. The minimum payments on that are over half of an attending internist's salary for 10 years.
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Yeah, going to a private med school and taking out 200k on top of 200k of federal is a bad idea, sure. However, my state med school costs about 200k overall. Very little, if any, private loans would need to be taken out. Add to that their significantly higher income and it's a better financial gig by far.

Don't let this quibbling over which career is better distract you from the fact that you absolutely should NOT take out private loans for dentistry. 200k is hard enough to pay back with federal loans. I can't imagine tacking on private loans on top of that.
 
michaeljj2021 said:
A 200k private loan compounding grows to 600k after 8 years of no payments at 15% interest.
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Private loans typically don't compound while in-school nor in residency. Interest does capitalize at two points; 1. at the end of the in-school period, and 2. at the end of residency. Also, I don't think rates will be at 15%, maybe half that.
 
SigmaFS said:
Private loans typically don't compound while in-school nor in residency. Interest does capitalize at two points; 1. at the end of the in-school period, and 2. at the end of residency. Also, I don't think rates will be at 15%, maybe half that.
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Are you sure they don't compound while in school or residency?
 
SigmaFS said:
Private loans typically don't compound while in-school nor in residency. Interest does capitalize at two points; 1. at the end of the in-school period, and 2. at the end of residency. Also, I don't think rates will be at 15%, maybe half that.
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How do you know that they do not compound in school or res?
 
i found out some interesting news last week
the american dental association is working on compiling a list of private lenders that have more knowledge about the dental profession and are willing to work with dental students
don't know how extensive the vetting will be, but at least it's a start to help predents make a little more sense of the situation
i also learned that the california dental association is working on something similar

please don't take this as me saying these BBB limits are ok, nor am i saying whether it's worth it or not to take $x amount of private loans to become a dentite

just passing on what i heard recently...
 
macsak said:
i found out some interesting news last week
the american dental association is working on compiling a list of private lenders that have more knowledge about the dental profession and are willing to work with dental students
don't know how extensive the vetting will be, but at least it's a start to help predents make a little more sense of the situation
i also learned that the california dental association is working on something similar

please don't take this as me saying these BBB limits are ok, nor am i saying whether it's worth it or not to take $x amount of private loans to become a dentite

just passing on what i heard recently...
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Intriguing. Will be interesting to see how much they're willing to cover.
 
the "stakeholders", including the ADA, were supposed to meet to discuss the BBB in the beginning of october, but the meeting was never held due to the government shutdown...
 
macsak said:
the "stakeholders", including the ADA, were supposed to meet to discuss the BBB in the beginning of october, but the meeting was never held due to the government shutdown...
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I'm sure discussing lowering costs of dental school isn't on the docket. Instead, it'll all be about finding private loan servicers to foot the extraordinary bills of students.
 
JacquesVallee said:
I'm sure discussing lowering costs of dental school isn't on the docket. Instead, it'll all be about finding private loan servicers to foot the extraordinary bills of students.
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my guess is that they will only be trying to get the administration to raise the limit
i doubt that finding servicers is anything the trump administration is concerned with
 
macsak said:
my guess is that they will only be trying to get the administration to raise the limit
i doubt that finding servicers is anything the trump administration is concerned with
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I don’t think they’ll raise the cap. The whole point was to lessen the burden being dumped on the taxpayer. All these schools are going to have to learn to stand on their own. If they can’t, I guess they’ll have to shut their doors.

Big Hoss
 
macsak said:
my guess is that they will only be trying to get the administration to raise the limit
i doubt that finding servicers is anything the trump administration is concerned with
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Let's hope they fail to raise the limit. Dental schools should either be affordable or close down. 200k, while still too high in my opinion, isn't a horrible limit.
 
JacquesVallee said:
I'm sure discussing lowering costs of dental school isn't on the docket. Instead, it'll all be about finding private loan servicers to foot the extraordinary bills of students.
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Where was the ADA over the last 15-20 years? It’s not like issues regarding the cost of a dental education sprung up overnight. They were asleep at the wheel, and I would just as soon leave the profession before I ever pay ADA membership dues again. They have done absolutely nothing to protect dentistry.

Big Hoss
 
I think it’s more involved than simply saying “just go to your state medical school, it’s a better ROI”

Medical school is more competitive to get into. A lot of people go into dentistry because they couldn’t get into med school at all, let alone the cheap state medical school. Others didn’t want to spend all that time pursuing education. Part of what attracted me to dentistry was that you could do four additional years of school, be in your mid twenties, and make a good income working much fewer hours than a medical resident, for example. Some people have the personality for success in dentistry, which I would argue is different than the personality needed for success in medicine.

We don’t even have to get into my own success as an associate dentist and how I make more than my partner who is a physician. I know you guys are sick of hearing about that, but there are still valid reasons for someone wanting to pursue dentistry.

The problem is the cost. Which I whole-heartedly believe is a big problem, and I hope these predatory schools are forced to shut down. I hope pre-dents don’t blindly take on too much debt.

But it’s more complicated than “just go into medicine.” I came out ahead going into dentistry, and for someone who is looking and saying ok medicine isn’t an option for me for whatever reason, it’s worth it for them to consider dentistry. Just be mindful of the debt.
 
macsak said:
i found out some interesting news last week
the american dental association is working on compiling a list of private lenders that have more knowledge about the dental profession and are willing to work with dental students
don't know how extensive the vetting will be, but at least it's a start to help predents make a little more sense of the situation
i also learned that the california dental association is working on something similar

please don't take this as me saying these BBB limits are ok, nor am i saying whether it's worth it or not to take $x amount of private loans to become a dentite

just passing on what i heard recently...
Click to expand...
Bear in mind that borrowers need to qualify on an annual basis. As their debt-to-income and credit scores presumably drop from the previous year's loan amount, for both the student borrower and their co-signer, there's likely an increase in the denial rate. Think about the scenario where a rising D3 gets denied.

Dental schools need to have $$$kin in the game. Private lenders will require some school to guarantee a certain % of loan amounts/year with an escrow account established for future defaults...at least that would be one of my risk mitigation strategies.
 
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Absolutely scary that no schools have provided any insight or advice yet to us, the prospective students.
 
Small comment... with rare exceptions, dental schools aren't going to contribute without their home universities doing so.

I am waiting for the ADA task force on dental school tuition (whatever it is called) to report out since convening last year...? ADEA had a report in 2013.
case.edu

Dental medicine’s Kenneth Chance appointed to American Dental Association National Task Force on Lowering Dental School Tuition | CWRU Newsroom | Case Western Reserve University

Earlier this spring, Kenneth Chance, dean of Case Western Reserve University School of Dental Medicine, was appointed by American Dental Association (...
case.edu

P.S. these concerns also apply to vet school students. Many of those schools run their own student clinics, and there is a similar draw for running one's business or specializing. Tuition may not be as big, but they have big problems too.

We also just posted an article about an American doing medical school in Spain. If anyone knows a similar student who went overseas for dental school, I'm all ears.

ADDED links
 
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Just watch NYU start a predatory side business to finance the loans themselves. A lot of these schools are basically hedge funds with academics on a side
 
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