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Easily the worst part of the job.
How will you pay for dental school?
Started by JacquesVallee
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Not just the dentists.....The physicians have to deal with ungrateful patients as well. The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
This gasteroenterologist's office gets a 2.5 star review (see image below). And the owner doctor had to write the responses to explain to these patients himself.
I know this GI doctor..... a good honest man....a very hard working doctor in his early 60s.....a father of 6. He is a GI doctor. I just can't imagine the amount of complaints that the plastic surgeons have to deal with. My cousin, who is a MD anesthesiologist, has to deal with a lot of unreasonable demands/expectations from patients, nurses, schedulers, surgeons etc as well. That's why he keeps telling his kid to stay away from medicine. His kid has just taken the DAT and will apply for dental schools for the upcoming cycle.
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Ok, lol well he may be a good guy, but that doesn't mean he is a good business owner. I could understand a patient being upset if they were waiting for an appointment and it got cancelled at the last minute, or if the office screwed up when verifying insurance. 2.5 star ratings of dental offices exist too so that's not something dental is immune to. If anything, it points out the stress associated with owning a business. Something that the majority of doctors don't have to do - which actually is favorable to contributing to a more healthy work/life balance.
You're right when saying the grass isn't ALWAYS greener on the other side. But sometimes, the grass actually is greener on the other side.
I'm not too prideful to admit that my job isn't as good as someone else's. If I were to go back, I would have chosen medicine. I know I'd be much further ahead financially, and I probably would actually be working less than I do now.
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How will you pay for dental school when the extra 300-400K (after 200K federal) is privately lended?
Answer: you can't, you won't, and you shouldn't.
Answer: you can't, you won't, and you shouldn't.
Jobs that require working with people are never easy. You can’t please everyone. I tried to find this GI doctor's office on the google map for my father-in-law and I was very surprised by the high number of negative reviews that his office gets. This doctor is a workaholic even in his early 60s. In addition to seeing patients at his office during the regular office hours, he also sees his patients in the hospital afterward…..he probably works 10-12 hours a day. I had never seen him with his kids when they came to my office for ortho tx. I only saw his wife with the kids.
I never like to talk to my patients either. I usually let my chairside assistants do most of the talking/explaining for me and I just focus on doing what I am good at and that is to provide ortho tx. The good thing about treating low income patients (in my office, 90+% are Hispanic and Asian) is they rarely ask questions and complain because they trust and respect their doctor. I don’t need to advertise. I don’t need to sell. The fees are low but it’s ok. I’d rather charge low fees and sleep better at night.
I was a pre med in college. I took the MCAT twice but did poorly on both because English wasn’t my first language. Two weeks later, I took the DAT and did very well because the knowledge from studying for the MCAT was still fresh in my head. And that’s how I got accepted to UCLA dental school. Before ortho, I did a year of GPR. Man, working in the hospital was hard. I hated waking up in the middle of the night….walked another 15 minutes from my apartment to the hospital’s dental clinic to splint someone’s avulsed teeth…..to drain a dental abscess….to deal with someone’s TMJ discomfort etc. I had seen so many terminally ill patients, who needed orgran transplants and needed the dental clearance from me. It’s depressing. I am glad that I am not smart enough to become a physician. Dentistry is a much more rewarding profession….financially and lifestyle wise. When my own offices don’t have enough patients, I can just travel to work part time for the corp offices....good cash flow....zero stress.
At least we, dentists can decline to treat certain patients (HMO, Medicaid etc). If patients don’t have money, we don’t have to treat them and we can refer them to the county hospital for free dental extractions. The physicians can’t do that. A lot of physicians are also complaining about the mid level providers, who are taking away their jobs. We don't have the mid-level provider problem in dentistry. We hire hygienists because we hate to clean teeth.
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Fortunately, you graduated in a different time than today. Your educational debt to income was not what current grads have. You bought your homes with a much lower interest rate, and when the median home price to income was 2-3, not the 5-6 today. You had money in the market and took advantage of the 10 year stock boom. The math for dentistry has significantly changed in the last 15-20 years. It’s getting pretty sad…
Big Hoss
It’s sad for the young generation, isn’t it? You are right. I've had a lot of luck with the real estate investments. I bought the properties (thanks to the stable dental job that allowed me to get loan approvals easily) at the right time. Therefore, I plan to share my luck with my kids, who were born too late and won’t have the same opportunities that I had had. Hopefully, with a debt free education and a large enough amount of down payment (that I will help them) for their first house, they will be at the same starting point as when I started my career.
I won't criticize my kid, if he can't buy a house at 30 yo. He won't become a MD until 25. And then he’ll have to do 3-6 more yrs of low paid medical residency. Even if he earns a real doctor's salary of $3-400k after residency, it will still take him at least 5 more yrs (if I don't help him) to save enough for a down payment for a $1.5M starter house. A starter home in my area is around $1M now....but it will probably be around $1.5M by the time my kid is ready to buy one.
It really is eye opening to think about being a dentist before the dot com boom. You make a ton of cash and then have your investments explode when Amazon and apple are in their infancy. Houses were all dirt cheap. It is objectively harder for the younger generation of dentists. Not impossible, but harder
JacquesVallee
Full Member
Near impossible if you attend a private dental school.
During the dot com period, I was still a 4th year student and was about to start the GPR residency and then ortho residency. I remember a dental classmate, who worked as an associate general dentist at a small slow office making $300/day, told me “Charlestweed, we’re in the wrong profession. Look at how much those engineer guys make and they only went to school for 4 years.” At that time, I didn’t understand what he talked about because I was still a clueless ortho resident. The guy later took the Western Dental Board, left CA, and moved to TX….and it’s where he started building his massive wealth. He currently owns more than 20 properties in TX. His daughter will apply for dental schools next year.
I didn’t start investing until 2008, when the housing market crashed and home prices became more affordable. Before that, we had spent the first 5-7 years of our career (working 6 days/wk) to pay off my and my wife’s combine $450k student loans and another $175k in practice loans.
Yes. I would encourage my children to look for professions where you are not public facing and you work with at a minimum, college educated people. The only way I can encourage them to consider teeth is if I am able to build something with my practices and the timing is right where they can take over and turn into a very attractive asset. Otherwise the effort on the grind to build a profitable business is probably better spent in another field, not in patient-facing healthcare.
Meanwhile…
Big Hoss
Big Hoss
The walls are closing in.
JacquesVallee
Full Member
I'm holding off on celebrations until I see actual school closures.
texas-tornado
New Member
I’m genuinely confused. Private lenders have said they won’t go over $500k in total loans and we know for a fact that cost of attendance for at least 10 schools will be about $650k. Yet there are masses of predentals spending a lot of money on interviews at these schools. Do all of these people have access to $150k cash? Why spend money and time interviewing if not? I feel like there’s is something I’m missing.
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JacquesVallee
Full Member
If pre-dents had the ability to make a financially sound decision, they'd never have applied to private dental schools in the first place.
The press release is from October, but if TMDSAS is a proxy:
TMDSAS Reaches Historic Milestone: Over 10,000 Applications for 2026
TMDSAS application submissions see major growth across medical, dental, and veterinary fields—signaling strong momentum for Texas’s future healthcare workforce.
www.txhes.com
JacquesVallee
Full Member
Texas has the cheapest medical and dental schools in the country. No surprise.The press release is from October, but if TMDSAS is a proxy:
TMDSAS Reaches Historic Milestone: Over 10,000 Applications for 2026
TMDSAS application submissions see major growth across medical, dental, and veterinary fields—signaling strong momentum for Texas’s future healthcare workforce.www.txhes.com
JacquesVallee
Full Member
@Big Time Hoosier to all the private schools when they start shutting down.
As noted in my signature below, the Fall 2025 Applicant Experience Survey is now open. It is open to all applicants for medicine, dentistry, and other health professions.
The survey includes the question:
💰 How much is your management of educational debt a factor in your application process (paying for schooling, selecting a high-paying career, opportunities to serve my community)?
The survey includes the question:
💰 How much is your management of educational debt a factor in your application process (paying for schooling, selecting a high-paying career, opportunities to serve my community)?
I don't think this is news, but many universities have their own branded websites to help incoming students select private loans. FastChoice is one such platform. I mention the home company, which connects universities with lenders. There may be others, so check your university's or dental school's financial aid site if there is such a link to a University-branded FastChoice site.
P.S. Take advantage of SDN member discounts:
I have noticed that many universities have their personalized FastChoice website going over private loan options for undergraduate, graduate, or professional programs (whatever is available at the university).
Here is the general website that interfaces universities with lenders.
myscholarnet.com
I'm sure there are other organizations that act in a similar fashion, so if you find one, please point it out.
Here is the general website that interfaces universities with lenders.
Simplifying Private Loan Processing, Today and Every Day.
Streamline processing of private student loans with a secure, customizable, proven system. You'll save time, energy, and hassle for you and your borrowers.
myscholarnet.com
I'm sure there are other organizations that act in a similar fashion, so if you find one, please point it out.
P.S. Take advantage of SDN member discounts:
- StudentLoanAdvice.com - A White Coat Investor company. Receive $29 off a student loan planning consultation:
Book Your Consultation → Reference Student Doctor Network when you book
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Big Hoss
That’s really tough, but it’s better for that individual (and patients) to not attend a huge debt bomb like ASDOH. The schools have to cut their costs
Predents are waking up to the cold realization that ROI trumps their “passion.” This is devastating news for dental schools (and prospective dentists). Dental schools will have to adapt to their new economic reality, or they’ll be forced to close their doors. The writing has been on the wall for years, see the following articles:
Are we in a medical education bubble market? - PubMed
Are we in a medical education bubble market?
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Considering Students' Cost of a Dental Education: Return on Investment and Debt to Income Ratio - PubMed
The cost for students of a dental education has become an issue of concern. This article explores the return on investment and the debt to income ratio of studying dentistry. These two measures are monitored to gain perspective on whether the cost of education pays off in earnings. The factors...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
The economic costs and benefits of dental education: an empirical analysis - PubMed
The rising costs associated with obtaining a dental education have caused some to question the financial benefit of pursuing a dental degree. There is a concern that recent graduates may have difficulty finding professional opportunities that provide the income necessary to service their...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
The dental school applicant pool and the rate of return to dentistry. Bureau of Economic and Behavioral Research - PubMed
The dental school applicant pool and the rate of return to dentistry. Bureau of Economic and Behavioral Research
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Big Hoss
Geez, you expect students to read and process papers that don't involve a short Tiktok length explainer? The oldest paper is older than most of the applicants (1982)! 🙂 🙂 I doubt even current dental students and residents have read these papers!Predents are waking up to the cold realization that ROI trumps their “passion.” This is devastating news for dental schools (and prospective dentists). Dental schools will have to adapt to their new economic reality, or they’ll be forced to close their doors. The writing has been on the wall for years, see the following articles:
Are we in a medical education bubble market? - PubMed
Are we in a medical education bubble market?
Considering Students' Cost of a Dental Education: Return on Investment and Debt to Income Ratio - PubMed
The cost for students of a dental education has become an issue of concern. This article explores the return on investment and the debt to income ratio of studying dentistry. These two measures are monitored to gain perspective on whether the cost of education pays off in earnings. The factors...
The economic costs and benefits of dental education: an empirical analysis - PubMed
The rising costs associated with obtaining a dental education have caused some to question the financial benefit of pursuing a dental degree. There is a concern that recent graduates may have difficulty finding professional opportunities that provide the income necessary to service their...
The dental school applicant pool and the rate of return to dentistry. Bureau of Economic and Behavioral Research - PubMed
The dental school applicant pool and the rate of return to dentistry. Bureau of Economic and Behavioral Research
Big Hoss
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The one from 1982 is probably the best one. It was from a time when dental schools were literally closed down. It portends what’s coming. Basic economics is basic economics — nothing has changed since 1982.
Big Hoss
Oh sure, even the leadership training programs for aspiring deans and administrators don't give history lessons. I learned about the dark times from an administrator mentor who was director of admissions at that time, and we ultimately kept reminding our school leadership to prepare for the return of the crash if costs kept increasing. This was 10 years ago.
Adding: the other part of the financial equation that would threaten school-based dental clinics is the reimbursements for charitable service or Medicaid/Medicare. From what I could tell, those cuts happen in 2026-2027. Since most people don't have dental "insurance" and pay out of pocket (or defer care), I'm curious to know if the "other reason" that threatens dental school viability includes a simple bottom line... not enough patients can afford to get care, or reimbursement is too poor to cover administrative costs. That was definitely a factor in the mid-80's closure.
I am not knowledgeable about how much it is to maintain an EHR subscription like Epic since all dental schools should be on an EHR by now.
No dental school will be shutting down because they failed accreditation. I don't remember that ever happening, and it doesn't sound like any of the new schools (opened since 2020) are in trouble... at least publicly.
I am not knowledgeable about how much it is to maintain an EHR subscription like Epic since all dental schools should be on an EHR by now.
How does the One Big Beautiful Bill affect dentists?
The ADA is outlining the budget reconciliation bill’s impacts on dentists through tax policy, student loans and state Medicaid provisions.
adanews.ada.org
No dental school will be shutting down because they failed accreditation. I don't remember that ever happening, and it doesn't sound like any of the new schools (opened since 2020) are in trouble... at least publicly.
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I dont think medicaid will have anything to do with it. The schools will face an existential threat once students realize it's not worth the amount that they are charging. When enrollment dips, so will their access to tuition moneyAdding: the other part of the financial equation that would threaten school-based dental clinics is the reimbursements for charitable service or Medicaid/Medicare. From what I could tell, those cuts happen in 2026-2027. Since most people don't have dental "insurance" and pay out of pocket (or defer care), I'm curious to know if the "other reason" that threatens dental school viability includes a simple bottom line... not enough patients can afford to get care, or reimbursement is too poor to cover administrative costs. That was definitely a factor in the mid-80's closure.
I am not knowledgeable about how much it is to maintain an EHR subscription like Epic since all dental schools should be on an EHR by now.
How does the One Big Beautiful Bill affect dentists?
The ADA is outlining the budget reconciliation bill’s impacts on dentists through tax policy, student loans and state Medicaid provisions.adanews.ada.org
No dental school will be shutting down because they failed accreditation. I don't remember that ever happening, and it doesn't sound like any of the new schools (opened since 2020) are in trouble... at least publicly.
Production in the clinic will go down as well.
500k+ to do a couple of crown preps, maybe a couple of endo, lucky to get a denture and take out a few teeth; Now that all of these people on Reddit seem to be open to hard truths, will we see them in the next couple of years talk about how they got robbed financially and experience wise? It’s one thing to get completely hosed and have a serviceable skill set that if you are lucky you can end up paying back some of the debt with A LOT of prudence, but anyone who has graduated in the last few years knows, most schools give no experience, and that coupled with ever worsening contracts for associates, these cohorts of students coming out will for the most part be walking right into a meat grinder.
Even AI gets it…
Big Hoss
Big Hoss
The new grads AND patients are going into the meet grinder. The new dentists will be over treating to get experience and money, and then patients will suffer.
Give em the old “eh do OMFS or endo” routine lol
Big Hoss
OMG. reddit is a significant source of training data for ChatGPT. They're feeding their own hysteria into the LLM to make their own hysteria worse. Talk about reinforcing your echo chamber!
I haven’t ever posted there, but the level of the blind leading the blind is next level on Reddit. They keep rehashing things that have long been “debunked” here on SDN.
Big Hoss
JacquesVallee
Full Member
Don't worry. The tide has changed on Reddit. Reality is setting in.
Let us know what a good strategy is to get them to post over here... at least on the premed site. 🙂 @Ryxndek ? 🙂
Until then, Google will still pour money into Reddit to prop up Gemini. Ditto that with OpenAI for ChatGPT.
I am so tempted to read through all the X vs. Y threads... not as well organized IMO.
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Sometimes you gotta let life do its thing. Now, schools deserve what's coming.
Wait until the people on Reddit encounter dentaltown and see the real truth from guys who have been in the trenches for years lmao
I was wondering. How are the Dentaltown forum discussions on this topic?
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JacquesVallee
Full Member
Let them dig their own graves. I, for one, look forward to their posts in 5 years talking about how they can barely afford rent and groceries. I’ll just remind them at least they followed their “passion.”
Big Hoss
It’s funny they talk about how the posts sound bitter. Since day 1 in dental school, dentists have had a bitter and jaded aura. It’s just part of dentistry and health care in general I guess
I thought you were talking about the cars in the advertisement. 😉
It's funny they're rehashing an argument/debate from over 15 years ago... all the letters...
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