How will you pay for dental school?

Started by JacquesVallee
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D1Bound said:
View attachment 413371
They’re concerned with sounding cool…
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Thats funny. I can't think of a single time that someone i've met has been impressed when they find out i'm a dentist. Usually, the sentiment is something of disgust - asking why I would want to work in somebody's mouth all day. A few times I've been questioned if I wasn't able to get into medical school, then picked dentistry as a backup lol. These predents are in for a rude awakening, haha.
 
New_Vegas said:
Thats funny. I can't think of a single time that someone i've met has been impressed when they find out i'm a dentist. Usually, the sentiment is something of disgust - asking why I would want to work in somebody's mouth all day. A few times I've been questioned if I wasn't able to get into medical school, then picked dentistry as a backup lol. These predents are in for a rude awakening, haha.
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I think they consider DMD vs. DDS equivalent to DO vs. MD. Or B.A. vs. B.S. The height of bougie is preferring an A.B. over B.A. because the degree is written in Latin. (Similarly M.D. can be written out in Latin by Ivy schools, D.O. is an abbreviation taken from English from what I know.)
 
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Blueshirts said:
Aside from 2 common SDN posters and maybe another 2 or 3 people, it’s pretty unanimous that they think the whole situation is terrible. Every couple of months there is a thread “would you let your kid become a dentist” and generally everyone says no
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It should be the opposite. It truly is unfortunate that that’s the sentiment around dentistry.
 
JacquesVallee said:
Someone on Reddit said Air Force HPSP requires a 490 (24AA) DAT score to be considered per an Air Force recruiter. Holy cow.
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That seems very high. There's an old Navy HPSP presentation to a predental club that says there is a minimum DAT (18; 390) and a competitive DAT (20; 420). AF HPSP presentation (UVa) reports an average DAT for 4-year HPSP of 22 (460). I doubt there is such a high jump for the DAT requirement or the competitive DAT average.

Again, don't trust reddit.
 
Mr.Smile12 said:
That seems very high. There's an old Navy HPSP presentation to a predental club that says there is a minimum DAT (18; 390) and a competitive DAT (20; 420). AF HPSP presentation (UVa) reports an average DAT for 4-year HPSP of 22 (460). I doubt there is such a high jump for the DAT requirement or the competitive DAT average.

Again, don't trust reddit.
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How many 4-year HPSP awards are allocated to dentistry?
 
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Anyone entering dental school right now with the prospect of 500-600-700K school debt have no idea what they're in for with federal cap borrowing. Private lenders are going to rake you through the coals on 10-20% APY on Day 1 for that extra 300-400K you take out after the standard 200K federally unsubsidized 6-8%. For the 99%, I promise you - you'll never, ever pay back that extra 300-400K on 10-20% interest over your lifetime, in addition to your federal principal:

On a 25 year SAVE: you're at a guaranteed 800K-1M for a standard DMD/DDS with those interest rates. And forgiveness is not guaranteed based on Congress or who's President at the time.

On a 10 year IBR: realistically $6000-8000/month in loans. Do you guys know how big of a payment that is?

On a 20 year IBR: realistically $5000-6000/month for two decades after interest. A huge amount of money to just throw away to your loan account.

This is before any additional debt to become a specialist in Endo/Ortho/Prosth. OMFS and Peds get GME funding, congrats.

This is before any obvious debts to (1) run a dental practice, (2) own a home, or (3) own any asset expense outside of dentistry.

Unless you're a super 1%er GP owner, you'll never make enough money to pay through those interest payments to hit the principal.

We're in a scary moment for dental students going forward. If you don't have a wealthy family outright to pay your principal, or you don't join the military or force yourself into a 10 year PSLF (FQHC/VA), you are 100% cooked on this education and will never pay it back.

Some of my friends say "why would private loan companies exploit private lenders for a professional education?" Uh, because they can? You have 0 leverage in this on the marketplace. No private lender competitor is going to magically give you a 30% discount on interest rates just because they're nice, knowing you're forced to agree to their terms to continue going to school and graduating. You have no other choice to accept their interest terms if you have to take out 600K for dental school. Why would they charge the standard 5-8% rate that the federal loans offer?

^This should be plastered all over SDN and Reddit.
 
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TheLastDance said:
Anyone entering dental school right now with the prospect of 500-600K school debt have no idea what they're in for with federal cap borrowing. Private lenders are going to rake you through the coals on 10-20% APY on Day 1 for that extra 300-400K you take out after 200K federally unsubsidized. For the 99%, I promise you - you'll never, ever pay back that extra 300-400K on 10-20% interest over your lifetime, in addition to your federal principal:

On a 25 year SAVE: you're at a guaranteed 800K-1M for a standard DMD/DDS with those interest rates. And forgiveness is not guaranteed based on Congress or who's President at the time.

On a 10 year IBR: realistically $6000-8000/month in loans. Do you guys know how big of a payment that is?

On a 20 year IBR: realistically 5000-6000/month for two decades after interest. A huge amount of money to just throw away to your loan account.

Unless you're a super 1%er GP owner, you'll never make enough money to pay through those interest payments to hit the principal. This is before any obvious debts to (1) run a dental practice, (2) own a home, or (3) own any asset expense outside of dentistry.

We're in a scary moment for dental students going forward. If you don't have a wealthy family outright to pay your principal, or you don't join the military or FQHC, you are 100% cooked and will never pay it back. Some of my friends say "why would private loan companies exploit private lenders for a professional education?" Uh, because they can? You have 0 leverage in this on the marketplace. No private lender competitor is going to give you a 30% discount on interest rates knowing you're forced to agree to their terms to continue going to school and graduating. You have no other choice to accept their interest terms if you have to take out 600K for dental school. Why would they charge the standard 5-8% rate that the federal loans offer?

^This should be plastered all over SDN and Reddit.
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Please post this on Reddit. SAVE was eliminated btw.
 
TheLastDance said:
Anyone entering dental school right now with the prospect of 500-600-700K school debt have no idea what they're in for with federal cap borrowing. Private lenders are going to rake you through the coals on 10-20% APY on Day 1 for that extra 300-400K you take out after the standard 200K federally unsubsidized 6-8%. For the 99%, I promise you - you'll never, ever pay back that extra 300-400K on 10-20% interest over your lifetime, in addition to your federal principal:

On a 25 year SAVE: you're at a guaranteed 800K-1M for a standard DMD/DDS with those interest rates. And forgiveness is not guaranteed based on Congress or who's President at the time.

On a 10 year IBR: realistically $6000-8000/month in loans. Do you guys know how big of a payment that is?

On a 20 year IBR: realistically $5000-6000/month for two decades after interest. A huge amount of money to just throw away to your loan account.

This is before any additional debt to become a specialist in Endo/Ortho/Prosth. OMFS and Peds get GME funding, congrats.

This is before any obvious debts to (1) run a dental practice, (2) own a home, or (3) own any asset expense outside of dentistry.

Unless you're a super 1%er GP owner, you'll never make enough money to pay through those interest payments to hit the principal.

We're in a scary moment for dental students going forward. If you don't have a wealthy family outright to pay your principal, or you don't join the military or force yourself into a 10 year PSLF (FQHC/VA), you are 100% cooked on this education and will never pay it back.

Some of my friends say "why would private loan companies exploit private lenders for a professional education?" Uh, because they can? You have 0 leverage in this on the marketplace. No private lender competitor is going to magically give you a 30% discount on interest rates just because they're nice, knowing you're forced to agree to their terms to continue going to school and graduating. You have no other choice to accept their interest terms if you have to take out 600K for dental school. Why would they charge the standard 5-8% rate that the federal loans offer?

^This should be plastered all over SDN and Reddit.
Click to expand...
1767733031201.gif


Big Hoss
 
Gh
TheLastDance said:
Anyone entering dental school right now with the prospect of 500-600-700K school debt have no idea what they're in for with federal cap borrowing. Private lenders are going to rake you through the coals on 10-20% APY on Day 1 for that extra 300-400K you take out after the standard 200K federally unsubsidized 6-8%. For the 99%, I promise you - you'll never, ever pay back that extra 300-400K on 10-20% interest over your lifetime, in addition to your federal principal:

On a 25 year SAVE: you're at a guaranteed 800K-1M for a standard DMD/DDS with those interest rates. And forgiveness is not guaranteed based on Congress or who's President at the time.

On a 10 year IBR: realistically $6000-8000/month in loans. Do you guys know how big of a payment that is?

On a 20 year IBR: realistically $5000-6000/month for two decades after interest. A huge amount of money to just throw away to your loan account.

This is before any additional debt to become a specialist in Endo/Ortho/Prosth. OMFS and Peds get GME funding, congrats.

This is before any obvious debts to (1) run a dental practice, (2) own a home, or (3) own any asset expense outside of dentistry.

Unless you're a super 1%er GP owner, you'll never make enough money to pay through those interest payments to hit the principal.

We're in a scary moment for dental students going forward. If you don't have a wealthy family outright to pay your principal, or you don't join the military or force yourself into a 10 year PSLF (FQHC/VA), you are 100% cooked on this education and will never pay it back.

Some of my friends say "why would private loan companies exploit private lenders for a professional education?" Uh, because they can? You have 0 leverage in this on the marketplace. No private lender competitor is going to magically give you a 30% discount on interest rates just because they're nice, knowing you're forced to agree to their terms to continue going to school and graduating. You have no other choice to accept their interest terms if you have to take out 600K for dental school. Why would they charge the standard 5-8% rate that the federal loans offer?

^This should be plastered all over SDN and Reddit.
Click to expand...
This is just reality it doesn’t matter what anyone’s “dream” is. I hope people wake up before it’s too late. It would be sad to see on Fox and CNN about hundreds of dental students dropping out before they finish.
 
D1Bound said:
Gh

This is just reality it doesn’t matter what anyone’s “dream” is. I hope people wake up before it’s too late. It would be sad to see on Fox and CNN about hundreds of dental students dropping out before they finish.
Click to expand...
Sad, but also good in that it would signal the beginning of the end of modern dental education which we here are all rooting for. I look forward to the day @Big Time Hoosier and I can retire from telling people to go to the cheapest school they get into lol.
 
JacquesVallee said:
Someone on Reddit said Air Force HPSP requires a 490 (24AA) DAT score to be considered per an Air Force recruiter. Holy cow.
Click to expand...
This is false. I remember seeing that post and trying to comment on every response. The required DAT is 390. It seems to be a reoccurring trend where other branches "slip" fake information out to the public. Last year, I spoke to someone who said their *other branch* recruiter told them the Air Force filled all their scholarships early which is why they weren't applying with us.
 

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Big Time Hoosier said:
I recently read the Department of Education estimates it will lose around $27 for every $100 in IBR loan programs. Clearly this is unsustainable and is going to cost hundreds of billions more than originally projected. IBR programs also disproportionately benefit graduate students, which are not their indented targets. These programs came about to help your kid’s 3rd grade teacher, not his pediatrician. In fact, this is already known as the “doctor loophole.” These programs were meant to help someone with $30,000 in loans, not $300,000.

The short/medium term macroeconomic outlook for the US government isn’t so great. For example, in 15 years the government will have to cut Social Security benefits by more than 20%. Do you expect the government to just forgive hundreds of thousands of dollars of your student debt all the while they tell some old widow who’s entirely dependent on Social Security to BTFU? Ain’t gonna happen.

If I were you, I’d be preparing to either have a cap on forgiveness retroactively imposed or to have the forgiven balance considered taxable income.

Big Hoss
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I posted the above all the way back in 2019. The writing has been on the wall for YEARS!

Where was the ADA when the cost of a dental education skyrocketed? Where was the ADA as dental income stagnated? Where was the ADA when overhead become crushing? All of this has combined to decimate the ROI on becoming a dentist.

There will be schools that close down, just like in the 1980’s. The bubble has burst. Full stop.

Big Hoss
 
TheLastDance said:
Anyone entering dental school right now with the prospect of 500-600-700K school debt have no idea what they're in for with federal cap borrowing. Private lenders are going to rake you through the coals on 10-20% APY on Day 1 for that extra 300-400K you take out after the standard 200K federally unsubsidized 6-8%. For the 99%, I promise you - you'll never, ever pay back that extra 300-400K on 10-20% interest over your lifetime, in addition to your federal principal:

On a 25 year SAVE: you're at a guaranteed 800K-1M for a standard DMD/DDS with those interest rates. And forgiveness is not guaranteed based on Congress or who's President at the time.

On a 10 year IBR: realistically $6000-8000/month in loans. Do you guys know how big of a payment that is?

On a 20 year IBR: realistically $5000-6000/month for two decades after interest. A huge amount of money to just throw away to your loan account.

This is before any additional debt to become a specialist in Endo/Ortho/Prosth. OMFS and Peds get GME funding, congrats.

This is before any obvious debts to (1) run a dental practice, (2) own a home, or (3) own any asset expense outside of dentistry.

Unless you're a super 1%er GP owner, you'll never make enough money to pay through those interest payments to hit the principal.

We're in a scary moment for dental students going forward. If you don't have a wealthy family outright to pay your principal, or you don't join the military or force yourself into a 10 year PSLF (FQHC/VA), you are 100% cooked on this education and will never pay it back.

Some of my friends say "why would private loan companies exploit private lenders for a professional education?" Uh, because they can? You have 0 leverage in this on the marketplace. No private lender competitor is going to magically give you a 30% discount on interest rates just because they're nice, knowing you're forced to agree to their terms to continue going to school and graduating. You have no other choice to accept their interest terms if you have to take out 600K for dental school. Why would they charge the standard 5-8% rate that the federal loans offer?

^This should be plastered all over SDN and Reddit.
Click to expand...


Maybe this will motivate dentists and future dentists to work faster and have a chance to pay it off to get on with their lives. There's a solution for the scenario of not being able to pay back the loans that no one seems to address which is making more money rather than accepting mediocrity.
 
TanMan said:
Maybe this will motivate dentists and future dentists to work faster and have a chance to pay it off to get on with their lives. There's a solution for the scenario of not being able to pay back the loans that no one seems to address which is making more money rather than accepting mediocrity.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure if “working harder” is sustainable long term or the answer.

IMG_2946.jpeg



Big Hoss
 
Big Time Hoosier said:
I’m not sure if “working harder” is sustainable long term or the answer.

View attachment 416030


Big Hoss
Click to expand...

Maybe it is the paradox... if they worked faster, made more money, and don't let people or things get to them, they could be happier. There's a difference between working faster and working harder. They are NOT the same.

Addressing the stress triggers:

- Workforce shortages can definitely be an issue, but it could be more of an issue of lower cost labor. Cycle through a bunch of new grad DA's/RDHs and see which one fit and which one doesn't. Everyone is replaceable except you.
- Patient attitudes take a little bit more to get over, but essentially, let your staff deal with them and don't care if the patient doesn't like you or not. Just assume everyone hates you and you're just there to perform your duties and make money in the process. With that mindset, when people are friendly, your bar and expectations are so low that it is refreshing. Learn to cut off non productive patients.
- Clinical dentistry: this one is tough, but I recommend just doing the procedures you want to do, refer everything else, and get fast at the ones that you want to do or may want to do once it becomes more profitable/enjoyable. On a side note, F*ck dentures.
- Insurance reimbursement: this goes back to working faster, making more money, and knowing how fast you need to execute a procedure to make it worth your while. 30 minutes on an interproximal is a sure way to hate clinical dentistry and insurance reimbursement at the same time.
 
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Big Time Hoosier said:
adanews.ada.org

ADA joins coalition urging Education Department to adjust timeline for student loan changes

The ADA is urging the Education Department to adjust the implementation timeline for student loan changes that could affect dental students.
adanews.ada.org

Dear ADA,

It’s time to rip the bandaid off. You’re only delaying the inevitable.

Sincerely,

Big Hoss
Click to expand...
You reap what you sew. These clowns had 20 years of unfettered, ridiculous tuition increases deepening the pockets of administrators. They created this house of cards. The charade is over. Time for reality to finally hit them. If you can't run a dental school without charging students sub 200k, then your school should be closed.
 
JacquesVallee said:
You reap what you sew. These clowns had 20 years of unfettered, ridiculous tuition increases deepening the pockets of administrators. They created this house of cards. The charade is over. Time for reality to finally hit them. If you can't run a dental school without charging students sub 200k, then your school should be closed.
Click to expand...

Big Hoss to NYU, USC, and their minions:

IMG_2947.gif


Big Hoss
 
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macsak said:
the issue is that the dental schools will not realize the changes in the class demographics for 3-6 years
and the new grads in 4 years won't realize the pain they are in for a few years after that...
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Short term pain for long term gain. This bill is the best thing that could've happened to our field.
 
macsak said:
the issue is that the dental schools will not realize the changes in the class demographics for 3-6 years
and the new grads in 4 years won't realize the pain they are in for a few years after that...
Click to expand...
Agreed. Collapses, whether those of empires or institutions, are usually a process not a sudden event. The real victims are those foolhardy enough to go to dental school during this transition period. Their debt will follow them to the grave.

Big Hoss
 
somefuturedoc said:
I hope a bunch of dental schools shut down. Would be glorious. Greedy institutions with no shame.
Click to expand...
May this list grow handsomely…

List of defunct dental schools in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

This is a great article about the collapse of dental schools in the 1980’s, and every predent should read it…

When dental schools closed: lessons for veterinary profession?

Student applications, not practice economics, drove decisions
news.vin.com news.vin.com

Big Hoss
 
Big Time Hoosier said:
This is a great article about the collapse of dental schools in the 1980’s, and every predent should read it…
Click to expand...

This is interesting. Written in 2013, it was well placed at the time. Veterinarian compensation was in the realm of 70-80k a year with a debt to income ratio of 2-3. However, in the last 13 years, schools and class sizes didn't shrink; they've exploded. From then to now, there have been somewhere in the realm of 15-17 new schools if you include those slated to seat their first class this fall. More are in the pipeline. Most are private or for profit. Most have huge debts of 300-400k+ with an average starting salary of 120-130k.

I've been thinking of the effects of this bill on vet med. The cost of vet care is getting out of hand in a large manner and part of that is the infiltration of private equity and part of that is an increase in appropriate wage growth for those in the field. The caveat is we don't have the same style of insurance (if the pet is insured at all). More and more people are declining diagnostics.

I honestly hope that many of the private and for profit schools close. Vet med is in a poor place right now and it's likely to just get worse.
 
battie said:
This is interesting. Written in 2013, it was well placed at the time. Veterinarian compensation was in the realm of 70-80k a year with a debt to income ratio of 2-3. However, in the last 13 years, schools and class sizes didn't shrink; they've exploded. From then to now, there have been somewhere in the realm of 15-17 new schools if you include those slated to seat their first class this fall. More are in the pipeline. Most are private or for profit. Most have huge debts of 300-400k+ with an average starting salary of 120-130k.

I've been thinking of the effects of this bill on vet med. The cost of vet care is getting out of hand in a large manner and part of that is the infiltration of private equity and part of that is an increase in appropriate wage growth for those in the field. The caveat is we don't have the same style of insurance (if the pet is insured at all). More and more people are declining diagnostics.

I honestly hope that many of the private and for profit schools close. Vet med is in a poor place right now and it's likely to just get worse.
Click to expand...
Higher education is so insane. It's a crime that this was ever allowed to happen in the first place. The BBB is exactly what is needed. If every private dental and vet school closed, it would be a net positive for both fields.
 
Big Time Hoosier said:
It’s not just the ROI for dentists that’s collapsing, private equity in dentistry is also hitting a wall…

The End of Easy Exits: Why Dentists Must Rethink the DSO Sale Model | Freedom Founders

www.freedomfounders.com www.freedomfounders.com

Big Hoss
Click to expand...
It's pretty simple. These DSOs are built on debt - on a house of cards. There generally isn't a whole lot of money left after these practices pay the doctor, all their operational costs, and their debt load. If an office starts underperforming compared to where they purchased the practice at, the whole thing collapses.

And generally, when a doctor sells to a DSO it turns into a situation where someone (owner) really cares about the practice- to where no one cares about the practice. What employee cares about the corporation? I can see how these things could collapse.

Maybe if their parent companies bought up the practices without debt... but otherwise.. I just don't see it.
 
JacquesVallee said:
This is amazing. If we see a collapse in DSOs and private dental schools, we may completely revitalize dentistry.
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I dont think it will stop, I just think there will be a lot of losers, and a few big winners. The DSOs that are poorly ran will go bankrupt, and those that are run better will succeed. The dentists who sell to bad DSOs will get screwed in the process, as thier stock value goes to zero. There will be much consolidation just like there has been with everything in our country in the last 50 years. Soon there will be a few big corporations who control the large % of the dental market.

We used to have a nation of business owners, house owners, etc. Soon, we will be a nation of employees, corporations, and renters. In such development, the middle class will get crushed.

Soon, I don't know when, there will probably be few, if any, dental owners. I don’t think its a good thing, but I do think it will happen because of how much work and risk it is to own a business.
 
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New_Vegas said:
I dont think it will stop, I just think there will be a lot of losers, and a few big winners. The DSOs that are poorly ran will go bankrupt, and those that are run better will succeed. The dentists who sell to bad DSOs will get screwed in the process, as thier stock value goes to zero. There will be much consolidation just like there has been with everything in our country in the last 50 years. Soon there will be a few big corporations who control the large % of the dental market.

We used to have a nation of business owners, house owners, etc. Soon, we will be a nation of employees, corporations, and renters. In such development, the middle class will get crushed.

Soon, I don't know when, there will probably be few, if any, dental owners. I don’t think its a good thing, but I do think it will happen because of how much work and risk it is to own a business.
Click to expand...
private equity is everywhere
here, locally, they are buying up plumbing and a/c companies and have fleets of trucks with vinyl wrap and they overcharge and make up work for days...
 
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macsak said:
private equity is everywhere
here, locally, they are buying up plumbing and a/c companies and have fleets of trucks with vinyl wrap and they overcharge and make up work for days...
Click to expand...
Yeah, private equity is taking over and ruining pretty much everything.

Hard to see how to stop it though. Its just the rich getting richer, and the average folk getting pushed out of owning anything.
 
And the patient pool? How do you think they're fairing economically? Jobs report saw 92K jobs lost in Jan 2026. Inflation ticking up and gas prices will only exacerbate inflation. More people tapping into the retirement accounts prematurely. DSO and schools closing may not come soon enough.
1772924014431.png
 
New_Vegas said:
I dont think it will stop, I just think there will be a lot of losers, and a few big winners. The DSOs that are poorly ran will go bankrupt, and those that are run better will succeed. The dentists who sell to bad DSOs will get screwed in the process, as thier stock value goes to zero. There will be much consolidation just like there has been with everything in our country in the last 50 years. Soon there will be a few big corporations who control the large % of the dental market.

We used to have a nation of business owners, house owners, etc. Soon, we will be a nation of employees, corporations, and renters. In such development, the middle class will get crushed.

Soon, I don't know when, there will probably be few, if any, dental owners. I don’t think its a good thing, but I do think it will happen because of how much work and risk it is to own a business.
Click to expand...
Let a man dream!
 
In another thread, there was talk about patient defaulting. As long as the patient defaults with a financing company and not you, the risk is shifted and mitigated to another unrelated entity. That comes with a price of doing business and should be priced in. You have your money and the financing company has to deal with collections.

For DSO's to make (more) money, they need to increase revenues and decrease labor costs. Increased revenues usually implies more aggressive treatment and/or sales. Decreasing labor costs usually means you have to pay your dentists just enough to survive but not enough to get out of the debt trap easily. If that's the case, it would make more sense to hire dentists that have a lower debt load that may be willing to accept a lower pay and make sure that they are easily replaced to prevent being held hostage by a dentist in a given location/practice. That's my line of thinking if I were a DSO. The problems that come from this is that you need a high supply of patients and dentists and have reduced capital costs in case the goodwill of a given entity/practice has been destroyed and a need to rebrand/relocate comes up. This goes back to build or acquire cheap, pump and dump, and move on OR build a legitimately good practice that may have lower than expected growth projections but may be more sustainable in the long term but worse short-term growth. The problem with a lot of DSO acquisitions is that they aren't acquiring for cheap or building cheap either. The value of the office isn't so much the equipment in the office but the revenues/cash flow that it generates.

Anyway, this is just my rambling of why we shouldn't fear DSOs and how some of the actions of DSOs make little sense in trying to get a market share at a relatively high cost when the barrier to entry isn't that high to begin with.
 
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