Christmas goodies

[JohnUC33]

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To all you ACLU people who hate the word "Christmas", I said it, so get over it. 😀

Anyways, my parents asked me to compile a list of things I want for Christmas. To be thrifty, I would like to ask for items that I will need in medical school. However, I am not exactly sure what it is I need. I don't need advice on the obvious apartment items, but what sort of stuff do I need for actual school (besides books)? Like, what sort of equipment do I need and where can I point my parents (preferebly a website) to get it?

p.s. I hope no one took the above comment about Christmas the wrong way. I'm just sick and tired of hearing on the news how a minority of people are trying to stifle people's rights to celebrate Christmas.

 

[Nate]

http://store.yahoo.com/allheart/31273134.html

 

[(nicedream)]

To all you ACLU people who hate the word "Christmas", I said it, so get over it. 😀

Anyways, my parents asked me to compile a list of things I want for Christmas. To be thrifty, I would like to ask for items that I will need in medical school. However, I am not exactly sure what it is I need. I don't need advice on the obvious apartment items, but what sort of stuff do I need for actual school (besides books)? Like, what sort of equipment do I need and where can I point my parents (preferebly a website) to get it?

p.s. I hope no one took the above comment about Christmas the wrong way. I'm just sick and tired of hearing on the news how a minority of people are trying to stifle people's rights to celebrate Christmas.

For medical equipment, I would wait until you get to school. At my school, and I assume at others, they told us what we would need some time during the first semester, and offered special deals through a certain company that came to school with the order forms and everything and made it convenient. That way, you know you are getting the right things, and nothing that will be unnecessary. Incidently, I've found the $1000 of equipment I bought to be kind of a waste - for learning and practicing I could have borrowed someone elses, and in clinical situations there's equipment in the exam rooms. All I really needed was a stethoscope...oh well.

 

[somnolent]

To all you ACLU people who hate the word "Christmas", I said it, so get over it. 😀

Anyways, my parents asked me to compile a list of things I want for Christmas. To be thrifty, I would like to ask for items that I will need in medical school. However, I am not exactly sure what it is I need. I don't need advice on the obvious apartment items, but what sort of stuff do I need for actual school (besides books)? Like, what sort of equipment do I need and where can I point my parents (preferebly a website) to get it?

p.s. I hope no one took the above comment about Christmas the wrong way. I'm just sick and tired of hearing on the news how a minority of people are trying to stifle people's rights to celebrate Christmas.

Paranoid are we? Let me guess, I bet you get your news from a certain cable program that passes off his "talking points" as news. I especially enjoyed his crack on Jon Stewart by playing a clip from a year ago to illustrate this war on Christmas. If you want to go fundamental on someone, try the ones that are increasing the commercialization of Jesus' birth.

 

[(nicedream)]

Paranoid are we? Let me guess, I bet you get your news from a certain cable program that passes off his "talking points" as news. I especially enjoyed his crack on Jon Stewart by playing a clip from a year ago to illustrate this war on Christmas. If you want to go fundamental on someone, try the ones that are increasing the commercialization of Jesus' birth.

Haha, I was going to say something like that but deleted it. The war on Christmas...hilarious.

 

[CTashby]

so as far as equipment goes, I agree that all you really need is a stethescope. a nice one preferably (not the ones with two tubes! I thought all my patients had pleural friction rubs until i realized it was just the tubing rubbing together) don't go super crazy either. I hear everything just fine on my $80 littman.
the otoscopes and ophthalmoscopes are pretty pointless unless you plan on working at homeless shelters and such where the resources are slim. Some people go nuts and buy the ophthalmoscopes where you can see a person's retina from the next state. Their pretty expensive though.
I'm not sure that i've ever used my BP cuff on anyone but myself.
A nice penlight often comes in handy.
tuning forks are pretty pointless. I've never seen anyone actually use one in the clinic, even in an ENT office.
You may want a reflex hammer (one with the microfiber in the end, NOT the needle point that screws out). But i'm content to just use my fingers.
An omt table can be nice to have but i would recommend waiting to see if you even have any interest in it.
Some people have fancy doctor bags to carry their stuff in but mine is just in one of those insulated lunch boxes (much cheaper). anyhow, once you start your clinical rotations, you'll just carry what you need in your coat pockets.

hope that helps. Thats all i can think of for now.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

To all you ACLU people who hate the word "Christmas", I said it, so get over it. 😀

why do you have to interject hatred into a perfectly innocuous post? protecting your right to be a christian, and hey, even protecting your right to be a jerk is part of what the aclu does.

 

[Dr JPH]

I would like to ask for items that I will need in medical school.

Then ask for cash.

 

[misparas]

protecting your right to be a christian, and hey, even protecting your right to be a jerk is part of what the aclu does.

Do you really think that's how it works?

 

[FS-Pro]

why do you have to interject hatred into a perfectly innocuous post? protecting your right to be a christian, and hey, even protecting your right to be a jerk is part of what the aclu does.

The ACLU tries to change everything that this county was built from. And in no way do they try to protect anyone's right to be a Christian. If anything, it's the opposite.

 

[JohnUC33]

why do you have to interject hatred into a perfectly innocuous post? protecting your right to be a christian, and hey, even protecting your right to be a jerk is part of what the aclu does.

There is not hate on my part. I just pointed out that there are some people who portray hatred for Christmas and the faith of our founding Fathers. It is what it is...nothing more, nothing less.

 

[somnolent]

The ACLU tries to change everything that this county was built from. And in no way do they try to protect anyone's right to be a Christian. If anything, it's the opposite.

There is not hate on my part. I just pointed out that there are some people who portray hatred for Christmas and the faith of our founding Fathers. It is what it is...nothing more, nothing less.

This will be my last post on this being this is the osteopathic forum, and definately off base from the orginal question. First I think that the ACLU is a little crazy, but so are the Christain Right. I don't think that any off these groups speak for me. They will always lobby for what they want, and it will never change.

I would like to say, though, that using the "Founding Fathers" as a defense is a bit wrong. The country was not "built" from whatever today's talking point is. If you actually looked closely at the beginning of this country's history, you might be surprised. I'm not saying that religion had no impact, just not nearly as much as cable news would have you believe. Our founding fathers were pretty bright people, they knew how to establish a government that was free from any type of theocracy. Which seemed to be a good idea since most other theocracies don't flourish. OK, thats enough until next year's elections.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

to add to rjfreed's great post, one of the founding principles of our country is the right to be a part of a minority and to think differently. this is one big reason why we do not currently have a theocracy. well, not to mention the fact that the founding fathers weren't religious -- in fact, they were mostly deists. all the prayers and talk of god was formality and not based on any belief that god acts on the earth.

as an aclu supporter, i can say that i support everyone's right to express their own religious beliefs, and i think this right is clearly granted in the first amendment. however, since we all don't share the same religious belief and since tolerance is one of our country's founding virutes, groups like the aclu don't support the encroachment of christianity into governmental bodies. you're not required to be a christian to be a good citizen or a good person. our founding fathers recognized this. it's a shame that people who think they understand our country's founding values don't get this.

also, totally an aside, but the puritans banned the practice of christmas. christmas used to be a big rocking party full of premarital sex, booze and way too much food, and the boring, straightlaced puritans didn't dig that. so, one could argue that christmas goes against the religious foundation of america since the puritans were the first settled european religious group here.

interesting factoids about deism and the founding fathers, including of very anti-religion, anti-bible quotes made by the likes of george washington, thomas paine and thomas jefferson, can be found on this site.

http://www.deism.org/foundingfathers.htm

and to dispel the ignorance that's being displayed on this thread about the aclu, here's a summary of what they do concerning religion. as you can see, they've actually joined cases defending the rights of christians to express their religious beliefs.

http://www.aclu.org/religion/tencomm/16254res20050302.html

 

[misparas]

and to dispel the ignorance that's being displayed on this thread about the aclu, here's a summary of what they do concerning religion. as you can see, they've actually joined cases defending the rights of christians to express their religious beliefs.

http://www.aclu.org/religion/tencomm/16254res20050302.html

I am claiming ignorance in the numbers, but I hope that isn't a comprehensive list from the last 3 years. From what I've read the ACLU takes on about 6000 cases per year. Listed there are 20 religious cases over the past 3 years(only 17 of which are possibly defense of "christian cases". Let's see that's 20 cases/ 18000 cases over a 3 year span.... that comes out to.... o.111%. About one tenth of a percent.

I hope those aren't really the stats. I know the ACU does a ton more than religious issues, I know that this is some sorry research, and I would be interested in better numbers. Anyone have them? I'm not trying to incite anyone. Just curious.

 

[FS-Pro]

interesting factoids about deism and the founding fathers, including of very anti-religion, anti-bible quotes made by the likes of george washington, thomas paine and thomas jefferson, can be found on this site.

http://www.deism.org/foundingfathers.htm

Probably not the best place to get info for this, seeing that it is a website dedicated to advance the belief of deism.

 

[It'sElectric]

Wow! This a very tempting debate to get into, since I often enjoy discussing such things with my friends. Unfortunately, if there's one thing I've learned about people from previous debates, it's that individuals who are hard pressed in their beliefs and ideal will almost never, ever change. I could argue with someone who held opposing views to mine all day long, but in the end, not a g0ddamn thing would be settled. The only thing I'll say is that the extremist views of any sect (whether it be fundamentally conservative or flaming liberalism) are notoriously the ones who have essentially divided this country. The Michael Moores, Pat Robertsons, Rush Limbaughs, and numerous others of this world will continue fan the flames and that's really unfortunate. If people were simply allowed to think for themselves without these ridiculous caricatures yelling in their ears, then I'm confident this country would be that much better off.

On a side note, my signature better show up this time.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Probably not the best place to get info for this, seeing that it is a website dedicated to advance the belief of deism.

fair enough, but the quotes appear to be accurate. also, it's well known (ie you can find it every history book) that the founding fathers were largely deists.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I am claiming ignorance in the numbers, but I hope that isn't a comprehensive list from the last 3 years. From what I've read the ACLU takes on about 6000 cases per year. Listed there are 20 religious cases over the past 3 years(only 17 of which are possibly defense of "christian cases". Let's see that's 20 cases/ 18000 cases over a 3 year span.... that comes out to.... o.111%. About one tenth of a percent.

I hope those aren't really the stats. I know the ACU does a ton more than religious issues, I know that this is some sorry research, and I would be interested in better numbers. Anyone have them? I'm not trying to incite anyone. Just curious.

i'm assuming that it's a representative sample and nowhere near indicative of all cases they joined involving religious matters. it does a good job of summarizing exactly where the aclu stands on religious issues. they defend the rights of atheists and theists alike to express their religious beliefs and follow their own consciousness. i think it's a beautiful thing. and i think it's expressive of the founding vision of our nation.

 

[JohnUC33]

fair enough, but the quotes appear to be accurate. also, it's well known (ie you can find it every history book) that the founding fathers were largely deists.

You do have an interesting point of view. Moreover, I did not intend for this thread to draw so much debate. Obviously, from reading your sources, you have come to one interpretation. From reading my sources, I have a vastly different interpretation about the founding fathers. If you or anyone else would like to continue this discussion, I would like for the mods to move this thread to the everyone forum.

To the mods,
This thread has obviously lost the originial intent. I meant for this mainly to ask for advice on medical school equipment. I threw the other comments in as a side point. Anyways, please move this post to the everyone forum because it is probably were it belongs.

 

[MikeyLu2010]

i dont think there is a church section on sdn..🙁

 

[TweetyPie]

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[TweetyPie]

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[somnolent]

I think we should be careful about being misled by the uninformed of the very obvious fact that this country's founding documents are strewn with religious references attributed to the collective majority who penned them. That is just a fact.

Well, i guess i lied. I still have a couple posts left in me. Very impressive list TweetyPie. Did you cherry pick those quotes with your own research, or did you copy and paste from some website?

And before you start throwing holy water at me, I am Christian. My religion is an important part of my life. I find that I can interpret our nation's history correctly and still be true to my religion, though.

First of all, since you included my quote with your "proof", i guess I should reiterate my point that you missed. I didn't mean to say that our founders weren't religious, I meant that our country wasn't founded on their religious beliefs. Actually, all of your quotes had nothing to do with government or anything of the ilk. But, I understand your point, why would any politician exaggerate or even lie about their religion? I can't imagine anyone paying lip service to the masses to get votes...

Lets say that they were as devout as you claim. Why wouldn't they just set up a theocracy? It would've saved us all a headache 200 years later. I don't remember reading any founding documents in your post. You even claimed that most of your quotes were from last wills and testaments. Most people seem to find God right before death. Even Tookie did.

OK, to end my 2nd last post, I have a quote that I cherry picked.

I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta of our country.
-- George Washington, responding to a group of clergymen who complained that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, in 1789, Papers, Presidential Series, 4:274, the "Magna-Charta" here refers to the proposed United States Constitution

🙄

 

[It'sElectric]

The OP was just remarking on how he/she thinks it's silly that saying Merry Christmas or mentioning the very word is being discouraged more and more in public forums. So how in the hell did we get into the subject of whether our nation was founded upon religious principles???!!! Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, Happy Kwanzaa, and everything else inbetween. For those who choose not to celebrate anything.....well, have a happy winter.

 

[toofache32]

The OP was just remarking on how he/she thinks it's silly that saying Merry Christmas or mentioning the very word is being discouraged more and more in public forums...

I must have missed this phenomenon or something. I'm still trying to understand what all the fuss is about when talking about Christmas. Who is "discouraging" this? Weird.

 

[(nicedream)]

I must have missed this phenomenon or something. I'm still trying to understand what all the fuss is about when talking about Christmas. Who is "discouraging" this? Weird.

There's no phenomenon, some people just watch too much American network news.

 

[FS-Pro]

Who is "discouraging" this? Weird.

There is a list of retail stores that prohibits their employees from saying "Merry Christmas." This list includes many major chain stores.

 

[toofache32]

There is a list of retail stores that prohibits their employees from saying "Merry Christmas." This list includes many major chain stores.

....And why?

 

[Echinoidea]

Sigh....The "war" on Christmas. If only we paid more attention to the other war going on right now, maybe we would'nt be mourning more than 2100 casualities.

I wonder what Jesus is more pissed about....whether or not a cashier at Target says "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", or the 30,000 - 100,000 Iraqi civilians that have been killed since 2003.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Sigh....The "war" on Christmas. If only we paid more attention to the other war going on right now, maybe we would'nt be mourning more than 2100 casualities.

I wonder what Jesus is more pissed about....whether or not a cashier at Target says "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", or the 30,000 - 100,000 Iraqi civilians that have been killed since 2003.

exactly! this supposed war on christmas is just more culture war bs from the likes of bill o'reilly and fox news. it's a ploy. too bad so many americans are so easily duped.

 

[toofache32]

Sigh....The "war" on Christmas. If only we paid more attention to the other war going on right now, maybe we would'nt be mourning more than 2100 casualities.

I wonder what Jesus is more pissed about....whether or not a cashier at Target says "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", or the 30,000 - 100,000 Iraqi civilians that have been killed since 2003.

What on earth are you blathering about? How are these 2 things related?

 

[Old_Mil]

To be perfectly fair, when the founding fathers discussed religion, they were discussing the various denominational organizations within Christianity. The point was, as any student of history knows, to avoid the creation of state churches similar to those in Europe. This never was an issue of whether Islamic Sharia law was compatible with American principles (by the way, it isn't).

There are far too many people in this world who, not having seen most of it, are willing to criticize the the United States and the tenents of the religion (yes, singular) from which it sprung.

This Christmas - whether or not you are a Christian - take the time to remember that if it wasn't for Jesus and the movement that he started you too could be sitting around a campfire eating the brains of dead relatives, attending a funeral where they burned widows alive, or leaving your unwanted baby on a cliff to die of exposure. Such things were or are still practiced by our multicultural bretheren around the world and were stopped by the followers of one Jewish carpenter - not Buddah, Krishna, Mohammed, or Moses.

The enjoyment of civilization as we know and enjoy it begins with an understanding of whence it came.

 

[MikeyLu2010]

Maybe this will get the thread back to topic: From the original poster:

Anyways, my parents asked me to compile a list of things I want for Christmas. To be thrifty, I would like to ask for items that I will need in medical school. However, I am not exactly sure what it is I need. I don't need advice on the obvious apartment items, but what sort of stuff do I need for actual school (besides books)? Like, what sort of equipment do I need and where can I point my parents (preferebly a website) to get it?

 

[JohnUC33]

exactly! this supposed war on christmas is just more culture war bs from the likes of bill o'reilly and fox news. it's a ploy. too bad so many americans are so easily duped.

...you are hilarious

 

[ShyRem]

About Christmas:

Why is it ok to say happy hanukah and happy kwanza but not merry christmas? If we, as a society, will allow any of them, all should be allowed and people should be happy for each other.

About separation of church and state: If there is to be a separation, why does our money say "in God we trust"? I see no separation.

For those people who are athiests and believe in nothing and are total grinches: please continue to work. I'd like to get mail on christmas, have my grocery story open on Christmas for those last-minute things I forgot, patrol my streets, and man my fire station for my neighbor who left a candle burning. You are certainly allowed a winter break, and you may have an extra vacation day added to your total. Please, be my guest and go with my blessings and thanks for working so those of us who DO celebrate the holidays can do so with family.

Now back to the OPs question: I think certainly a stethoscope would be an outstanding Christmas gift. Also, how about some USMLE review books for step I and perhaps II to give you an idea of what the heck's important to study. How about some scrubs or other crappy clothes of your school's choice to wear during anatomy lab? Prepaid DSL service (a true necessity for studying)? Prepaid cellular service? And for some entertainment (which you will absolutely need) the complete collection of Calvin & Hobbes? I hear Netter's flash cards are good, too... a PDA or new laptop if they're generous.

That's about all I can see to ask for other than textbooks.

 

[JohnUC33]

....And why?

I'm gonna assume that you are being genuine. Let me quote from the Webster online dictionary. It defines Christmas as " a Christian feast on December 25 or among some Eastern Orthodox on January 7 that commemorates the birth of Christ and is usually observed as a legal holiday."
In summary, its the celebration of Jesus' birthday. Moreover, the name of Christ offends some people for some reason or another. Since some stores are afraid of lawsuits from people offended by the word Christmas, they ban the use of the word. Personally, I believe it is ridiculous. There are other religous holidays that I do not agree with, yet I will never support banning of reference to them from any public establishment. If I get offended over something that is not morally wrong, then its my problem and no one else's.

Once again everyone, I never meant for this thread to get the type of debate it has caused. I wanted advice for Christmas presents and threw the other comments in as an aside. Oh well, I wonder how much longer this thread will grow.

 

[misparas]

exactly! this supposed war on christmas is just more culture war bs from the likes of bill o'reilly and fox news. it's a ploy. too bad so many americans are so easily duped.

"I have no idea what you guys are talking about. I thought we were here to talk about petroleum."

 

[misparas]

"You're misleading these children. 'Cause you're the destroyer, man."

 

[toofache32]

I'm gonna assume that you are being genuine. Let me quote from the Webster online dictionary. It defines Christmas as " a Christian feast on December 25 or among some Eastern Orthodox on January 7 that commemorates the birth of Christ and is usually observed as a legal holiday."
In summary, its the celebration of Jesus' birthday. Moreover, the name of Christ offends some people for some reason or another. Since some stores are afraid of lawsuits from people offended by the word Christmas, they ban the use of the word. Personally, I believe it is ridiculous. There are other religous holidays that I do not agree with, yet I will never support banning of reference to them from any public establishment. If I get offended over something that is not morally wrong, then its my problem and no one else's.

Thanks for the explanation. I guess I don't get out much these days.

I think I agree with what you're saying. This is interesting. It seems like certain people want to allow anything on TV/media with the disclaimer that you should turn it off if you don't like it or disagree. That's the impression I've always had. Now they have a fit when someone with different ideas/beliefs says something as benign as "Merry Christmas."

 

[FS-Pro]

There are other religous holidays that I do not agree with, yet I will never support banning of reference to them from any public establishment. If I get offended over something that is not morally wrong, then its my problem and no one else's.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[It'sElectric]

exactly! this supposed war on christmas is just more culture war bs from the likes of bill o'reilly and fox news. it's a ploy. too bad so many americans are so easily duped.

👎 That's unfortunate, exlawgrrl. Up until this point, I honestly thought that your previous posts (concerning this thread and others) were well informed and fair. You honestly just took a huge step back and dropped to the lowest common denominator. As I mentioned previously, it's extremists from BOTH sides (conservative and liberal) that are causing problems and stirring the pot. That last statement makes you no better than the Bill O'Reillys, the Michael Moores,etc. of this world. Oh well, that's your honest opinion (whether it be ill informed or not) and I won't attempt to change you. Best of luck to you, if that's how you intend on approaching this world.

 

[MikeyLu2010]

Looks like my attempt at putting this thread back on topic was futile 🙁

 

[(nicedream)]

This Christmas - whether or not you are a Christian - take the time to remember that if it wasn't for Jesus and the movement that he started you too could be sitting around a campfire eating the brains of dead relatives, attending a funeral where they burned widows alive, or leaving your unwanted baby on a cliff to die of exposure. Such things were or are still practiced by our multicultural bretheren around the world and were stopped by the followers of one Jewish carpenter - not Buddah, Krishna, Mohammed, or Moses.

The enjoyment of civilization as we know and enjoy it begins with an understanding of whence it came.

Christianity is to thank for all progress?? Yeah, Christian Conservatives are reallllll progressive!! 🙄 🙄 🙄 That's why they want to take us back a few centuries. Way to proselytize and be arrogant.

By the way, might want to rethink going to an osteopathic school if you're a fan of quackwatch.

 

[(nicedream)]

About Christmas:

Why is it ok to say happy hanukah and happy kwanza but not merry christmas? If we, as a society, will allow any of them, all should be allowed and people should be happy for each other.

Those that don't want "merry christmas" to be said don't want these said either. They want "happy holidays."

About separation of church and state: If there is to be a separation, why does our money say "in God we trust"? I see no separation.

First amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." It was therefore about prohibiting state establishment of religion, and allowing free exercise - not about banishing any reference to "God". Some do argue that the phrase should be stricken from money, along with from the Pledge. It has not always been on either (money on and off, pledge in the 1950s).

For those people who are athiests and believe in nothing and are total grinches:

Why are Atheists the one group that apparently everyone feels is okay to blatantly be bigoted against? What if I said "For those people who are christians and believe in jesus and are total *****s." No, that wouldn't be acceptable because they are the majority. Yet, Atheists don't believe in God so f*ck them huh? It's not right.

 

[(nicedream)]

What on earth are you blathering about? How are these 2 things related?

I'm hoping your posts on this thread are a joke.

 

[Old_Mil]

Christianity is to thank for all progress?? Yeah, Christian Conservatives are reallllll progressive!! 🙄 🙄 🙄 That's why they want to take us back a few centuries. Way to proselytize and be arrogant.

Proselytizing? Not really - I'm actually Catholic and not much of a Bible thumper myself. If you want to be something besides a Christian, you totally have the freedom to do that. However, this business of riding on the back of Christian progress without giving credit where it is due has gone a bit too far. Arrogant? It probably does sound that way. Yes, Christian conservatives are extremely progressive when a long view of history is taken - abolition, orphanages, charitable hospitals, all that stuff you know. It's only in recent times when "progressives" have moved on to advocate for things like gay marriage and child pornography that they seem conservative.

By the way, might want to rethink going to an osteopathic school if you're a fan of quackwatch.

Why is that? Are you suggesting that Osteopathic medical schools teach quackery?

 

[TweetyPie]

.

 

[somnolent]

I might add how unfortunate it is that for many, this is the first time you have even heard of this or had it presented in this way. You see, you're secondary and undergrad teachers/professors insidiously censored these historical facts and understanding from you in order to create a view that they wanted you to see.

Those bastards. I knew we should have asked what was on all of those torn-out pages...


Is that how you usually end a post with valid points. Maybe you should have stopped before you got to the conspiracy theories, and then I could respond. I suppose I could look it up on google.

 

[(nicedream)]

Why would we turn to the beliefs of people that lived 3 centuries ago to deal with the questions that are present in our modern society anyway? To struggle over interpreting what Jefferson et al really meant is foolish to me. Unless you want to live in the 1700s, it's rather irrelevant. Yes, the strict separation of church and state is not present in the founding documents and only came out of judicial decisions more recently. So? It's called progress. Should we go back to slavery as well, since they all had slaves? Should we disregard our modern advances in medicine because it's not what our medical forefathers practiced? As time moves on, society becomes more advanced in every respect. Values change, beliefs are altered. Reactionaries turn to the forefathers to support their backwards notions.

By the way, the whole "war on christmas" story is really ludicrous. Retailers have taken it upon themselves, not just this year but for years now, to utilize the phrase "happy holidays" on their decorations. Why? Because it enables them to begin their sales push before thanksgiving and through new years - multiple HOLIDAYS not just christmas. This did not arise from significant complaints regarding the phrase "merry christmas." However, some christian groups who have become increasingly activist lately, were upset at the use of "happy holidays" and have protested. Thus, the real people getting upset at 2 harmless words are these christians who find "happy holidays" to be offensive. The irony of people on this board, and people like O'Reilly, now accusing non-christians of being offended at the words "merry christmas", is too much.

 

[(nicedream)]

Why is that? Are you suggesting that Osteopathic medical schools teach quackery?

There is an article on the site about "osteopathy" - and yes, I would suggest that some of what is taught is quackery.