Civilian residency after GMO advice

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
This is an amazing thread, thank you all. I am a 3 year GMO applying for advanced positions on ERAS right now. ::fingers crossed::

What is everyones opinion on what to wear to interviews? It seems for FTOS it would make sense to wear your uniform but for civilian residencies with which you are planning to resign from the military, that civilian suit would be best. I don't want to do anything that would put me at a disadvantage, any thoughts?

Members don't see this ad.
 
This is an amazing thread, thank you all. I am a 3 year GMO applying for advanced positions on ERAS right now. ::fingers crossed::

What is everyones opinion on what to wear to interviews? It seems for FTOS it would make sense to wear your uniform but for civilian residencies with which you are planning to resign from the military, that civilian suit would be best. I don't want to do anything that would put me at a disadvantage, any thoughts?
I was planning on a civilian suit. Not sure what those who have gone before us have done.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I recently had a successful civilian match and I wanted to add a few tips that I feel led to the success. It should go without saying that your academic house has to be in order and that you have a realistic shot at whatever specialty that you are going for. You’re not going to get derm as a mediocre candidate just because someone makes a phone call for you. These are things that can help get your foot in the door, but your overall app has to push it open. This is all obviously my opinion only.

About me: Internship in general surgery followed by 4 years as a flight doc.



Networking: One of the significant disadvantages that you will have as a GMO applicant is your lack of ability to easily do an away rotation or have a “home” institution. You have to counter this by doing some aggressive networking. You should plan to attend whatever your desired specialty's national conference is in the months leading up to application season. If there is a residency fair going on attending that should be your top priority, with several programs already scouted and you prepared to shake hands and leave a good impression. If you still have contacts from med school, either someone who was a student with you or staff that you worked with, get touch with them and let them know that you are getting out of the military and are looking to get back in to residency training. They may be willing to make a phone call or perhaps help set up a rotation on your behalf. A rotation will be difficult to arrange given your licensed status but not impossible: I have spoken to other former GMOs who cold-called programs and were able to set up a rotation. If you can get a friend who is on good terms with their PD and they are willing to call them up and sell you, then take advantage of that.



Try to get stationed at an area with either a civilian or military training program nearby: You may or may not have much control over this and it will vary depending on what you are going for. The reason for the close proximity is so that you can stay close to your specialty by attending conference or even rotating at the MTF if possible. Even if you have chosen to not reapply in the military, chances are the residency would be okay with you attending their education day. The same goes for a local civilian program: don’t be afraid to call the program coordinator, tell them your situation (bored GMO planning on applying to specialty X and you would love to come to conference so as to stay close to specialty X). Never hurts to ask and they may be willing to accommodate someone who is valiantly defending freedom. Plus, if you decide to apply to the local program they have some time to get to know you, and you are showing your interest by showing up on your own time. A rotation at the civilian program is unlikely (see above) but you should have some credentials at the local MTF and may be allowed to hang out in the ED, OR, L&D, or whatever. So, if you are given the offer to PCS to either Wainwright or Bliss, you are probably better off at Bliss, even if the outdoor life is better at Wainwright.



Use your GMO time wisely: If possible, get a flight physical and get into an aviation unit, as they tend to be smaller battalions than regular infantry or support battalions (in the Army at least). I am with one of the bigger battalions in the brigade and I still have ample time to put towards medical pursuits. Remember: a GMO is not a medical job and you have to fight to stay close to medicine. Write up a case study or a podcast script, keep up with reading in your specialty, and try to work at your local MTF by volunteering a half-day a week. Not only will this help to keep your sanity intact but it will a) help you to confirm that this is a specialty you want to go into; b) help you to learn and maintain clinical skills; and c) show interest. There will be plenty of time too for golf and long lunches, but put your medical career first.



Get a side-hustle: If the extra money isn’t interesting to you, then the maintenance of clinical skills and getting used to autonomous decision making should. Since you have to be licensed anyway you may as well get licensed in your state. Depending on the state you’re in you may be limited in what you can do.



If you are a DO applicant, strongly consider taking at least Step 1 USMLE: If you are reading this and are currently in med school, then definitely plan on taking both. I know that the military doesn’t require it, but things can change and you may not train in the military. You will be glad you got it done when you were studying for Level 1. If you are already graduated, stuck in GMO-land, and considering applying to ACGME residencies, take the damn test. I did not, and while I did have success this cycle I feel I would have had more interviews if I had a USMLE score to report. I do not know the details surrounding this but this is something worth exploring. ACGME programs are going to want to see USMLE scores, with the possible exception of PM&R residencies, per @j4pac .



Those are the general tips that I want to offer. Depending on your specialty there will be other quirks to work around. For example, in EM the standardized letter of evaluation (SLOE) has become the a top evaluation tool for extending interview invites, pretty much on par with grade and boards. It will be very difficult to get a training-program SLOE as a GMO so you may need to do some cold-calling to find a place that will let you rotate.



Chances are the military is very happy to keep you in an admin job, and your bosses have no idea about how to land a civilian residency. Civilian PDs don't care about your DA photo, your most recent OER, or your skills as a Powerpoint Ranger. They want to know if you have the interest, drive, and ability to complete their training program. This all falls on you to attend to, so I hope these tips are helpful. You must fight to maintain your medical career. Hang on to hope, it can be done. Good luck!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Congrats @WernickeDO on your match. My experience on the interview trail was that people were genuinely interested in/surprised by what I'd been doing for that past 3.5 years. I'd second the notion that having a program-of-interest near your base is very helpful. I nosed my way in (with a LOT of help from networking) to give a departmental grand rounds where I wanted to eventually match and it was well-received. A lot of the residents/faculty remembered it on interview day and I ended up matching there last week.

Time spent as a GMO is a detour at best, and may be a derailment in more cases. But knowing how to work it to your advantage going in is invaluable.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
@WernickeDO , I am just waking up to the reality of this process, and am committing to myself and to this struggle starting now. Would appreciate your advice:

Me: D.O. GMO finishing year 2 of 4. Moving from operational billet to East Coast shore duty. Targeting Emergency Medicine 3-year ACGME programs. COMLEX I 500-510 (40th percentile), COMLEX II 550-560 (60th percentile). Class rank a bit below average. One published case study during GMO time.

Questions: I am worried that my basic science knowledge has dropped. Would you recommend running through First Aid, Pathoma, EM Casefiles, UWorld, or any other review materials? Would you recommend prioritizing getting published again or getting corpsmen to move forward with poster presentations or research? Ever since realizing that military residency was not my goal, I have regretted not taking the USMLE. Do you think it's crazy to take USMLE Step I three years after graduation (I imagine plenty of FMGs do...)? What kind of activities at a nearby academic program could I target? Research? Grandrounds? Would it be crazy for a physician to request permissive TDY to complete an audition rotation for a SLOE? I was not set on Emergency Medicine until well after graduation--How might one get a SLOE without four weeks to give?

Thank you @j4pac @Wernicke @Clap MD and all others who've contributed. I'm writing out my plan to match the one provided, steps and all.
 
Great post. Thanks.

I have 9 months left. 4 years as flight surgeon overseas was good time but I'm ready to exit.

I am applying to civilian residency currently. Did not do the advanced option. I would like to hear the experience of those that applied to categorical PGY2 for the upcoming year (not advanced).

Are people really getting paid TDY to do interviews for a civilian job? How about permissive TDY for interviews?

For those that were overseas during interview season, how did you schedule interviews? Trying to lump them all into one 10-14day visit seems to be the most feasible.

I don't know about getting full TDY. The government isn't going to pay for your flights, lodging, and per diem for your to go and interview. But you can get permissive TDY approved which won't eat up any leave you have.
 
@WernickeDO , I am just waking up to the reality of this process, and am committing to myself and to this struggle starting now. Would appreciate your advice:

Me: D.O. GMO finishing year 2 of 4. Moving from operational billet to East Coast shore duty. Targeting Emergency Medicine 3-year ACGME programs. COMLEX I 500-510 (40th percentile), COMLEX II 550-560 (60th percentile). Class rank a bit below average. One published case study during GMO time.

Questions: I am worried that my basic science knowledge has dropped. Would you recommend running through First Aid, Pathoma, EM Casefiles, UWorld, or any other review materials? Would you recommend prioritizing getting published again or getting corpsmen to move forward with poster presentations or research? Ever since realizing that military residency was not my goal, I have regretted not taking the USMLE. Do you think it's crazy to take USMLE Step I three years after graduation (I imagine plenty of FMGs do...)? What kind of activities at a nearby academic program could I target? Research? Grandrounds? Would it be crazy for a physician to request permissive TDY to complete an audition rotation for a SLOE? I was not set on Emergency Medicine until well after graduation--How might one get a SLOE without four weeks to give?

Thank you @j4pac @Wernicke @Clap MD and all others who've contributed. I'm writing out my plan to match the one provided, steps and all.

I know a prior GMO who did the civilian EM route after his tour. If you’re interested, send me a PM and I could try to connect you with him. Id definitely look at the requirements of the specialty. Some honor your internship from years ago, but others may not. You then would have to decide whether to repeat an internship or not. I’m doing PM&R at a pretty medical heavy program, but I’ve been fine. That may not be the case with other specialties that expect you to hit the ground running without working off rust like IM or Surgery. I suppose you could moonlight and be ready for ED, but I’d talk to people who have traveled the path before.
 
EM now has a requirement that only 3 years may elapse between internship and residency or you have to redo internship. (This is not a military rule). The only positive is that some EM programs are 3 years so you could go to one of those and still “only” have done 4 years of GME training.
 
@WernickeDO , I am just waking up to the reality of this process, and am committing to myself and to this struggle starting now. Would appreciate your advice:

Me: D.O. GMO finishing year 2 of 4. Moving from operational billet to East Coast shore duty. Targeting Emergency Medicine 3-year ACGME programs. COMLEX I 500-510 (40th percentile), COMLEX II 550-560 (60th percentile). Class rank a bit below average. One published case study during GMO time.

Questions: I am worried that my basic science knowledge has dropped. Would you recommend running through First Aid, Pathoma, EM Casefiles, UWorld, or any other review materials? Would you recommend prioritizing getting published again or getting corpsmen to move forward with poster presentations or research? Ever since realizing that military residency was not my goal, I have regretted not taking the USMLE. Do you think it's crazy to take USMLE Step I three years after graduation (I imagine plenty of FMGs do...)? What kind of activities at a nearby academic program could I target? Research? Grandrounds? Would it be crazy for a physician to request permissive TDY to complete an audition rotation for a SLOE? I was not set on Emergency Medicine until well after graduation--How might one get a SLOE without four weeks to give?

Thank you @j4pac @Wernicke @Clap MD and all others who've contributed. I'm writing out my plan to match the one provided, steps and all.
Hello,

In my opinion it's worth taking the USMLE, especially if you are primarily targeting MD residencies. Just my opinion but I got feedback during my application cycle that my packet would have been more competitive had I taken the USMLE. Don't sleep on those DO residencies either. Many of them are switching the 3 years.

Anything you do to show interest in EM is worthwhile, whether that's publications, posters, side jobs at an urgent care, etc.

If there is a nearby academic program get in contact with the residency coordinator and ask if you can sit in on their conference days. Build from there into more.

I think TDY for rotations is a stretch, but the worst they can say is no. A rotation is probably the only way you're going to get a SLOE and that's going to be challenging...your license makes medical malpractice tricky.

Good luck.
 
Does anyone have any advice on how hard it would be to find a PGY-2 spot for Internal Medicine? I would like to go to a university program if possible. Alternatively, would I be at a disadvantage applying to categorical Internal Medicine spots compared to US Seniors?

I'm trying to decide whether just doing Navy residency is worth an additional 2 year ADSO, versus getting out and possibly having to repeat intern year for internal medicine.
 
Does anyone have any advice on how hard it would be to find a PGY-2 spot for Internal Medicine? I would like to go to a university program if possible. Alternatively, would I be at a disadvantage applying to categorical Internal Medicine spots compared to US Seniors?

I'm trying to decide whether just doing Navy residency is worth an additional 2 year ADSO, versus getting out and possibly having to repeat intern year for internal medicine.

If you do a GMO and out I think you’ll be hard pressed to find a residency that didn’t want you to repeat some of not all of intern year.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
If you do a GMO and out I think you’ll be hard pressed to find a residency that didn’t want you to repeat some of not all of intern year.

And more importantly, you should. You don’t want to fail and jumping in as a R2 having been out of touch is hard. Military programs are used to that transition but an outside program would not be. It’s better to learn the hospital, EMR, etc while you have intern level responsibilities. You really want to succeed.
 
I did all my interviews this year with my dress blues (was recommended by some of my mentors and a peer who matched last year; we'll both be doing PM&R). I got a lot of great feedback from attendings, nurses, etc. and I felt it was somewhat of an advantage as it did make me stand out from crowds of applicants... However it did draw attention and at times felt too uncomfortable.

I’ve seen it both ways...I honestly don’t think the uniform makes a big difference. If it gives you confidence, then why not. I personally didn’t want to intimidate my competition or interviewers so I went with a suit. They were impressed with the military service without the garb
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Does anyone have any experience applying for IM fellowships after fulfilling their obligation?
 
For GI, it’s been a mixed bag. I helped a few folks apply with about a 60% success rate. If you were competitive in the .mil, you should be fine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Hoping to awaken this post again... thanks to everyone who left advice and experiences- I've read it all.

I have 18 months left and will be stationed in Japan for the duration. Planning to apply to the 2021 match this summer for OBGYN Categorical (no OBGYN Advanced spots). M.D. with categorical OBGYN internship at NMCSD.

The Bad: I have little (no?) opportunity to network in person, AND I will be deployed during the 2020 annual ACOG meeting, likely until DEC. I do not have a nearby MTF with OBGYN. Additionally, I want to apply to a very limited geographical area as spouse is AD Air Force and I'd like to see her at least once in a blue moon.
The Good: 85th-95th percentile STEP scores, good class ranking, AOA, have maintained a relationship with internship PD and APD, have demonstrated ongoing interest in OBGYN as a FS (running contraceptive clinics, women's health working groups, etc.)

Questions for those who have been through ERAS:
--Is it possible to punt all interviews until January? I literally cannot interview before then. Other suggestions for navigating this conundrum?
--My APD is happy to reach out to programs (Emory?!?) on my behalf, but, what should I ask her to do/ what should I expect to do?
--Is there a chance in hell of this working???

TIA.
 
Hoping to awaken this post again... thanks to everyone who left advice and experiences- I've read it all.

I have 18 months left and will be stationed in Japan for the duration. Planning to apply to the 2021 match this summer for OBGYN Categorical (no OBGYN Advanced spots). M.D. with categorical OBGYN internship at NMCSD.

The Bad: I have little (no?) opportunity to network in person, AND I will be deployed during the 2020 annual ACOG meeting, likely until DEC. I do not have a nearby MTF with OBGYN. Additionally, I want to apply to a very limited geographical area as spouse is AD Air Force and I'd like to see her at least once in a blue moon.
The Good: 85th-95th percentile STEP scores, good class ranking, AOA, have maintained a relationship with internship PD and APD, have demonstrated ongoing interest in OBGYN as a FS (running contraceptive clinics, women's health working groups, etc.)

Questions for those who have been through ERAS:
--Is it possible to punt all interviews until January? I literally cannot interview before then. Other suggestions for navigating this conundrum?
--My APD is happy to reach out to programs (Emory?!?) on my behalf, but, what should I ask her to do/ what should I expect to do?
--Is there a chance in hell of this working???

TIA.

Yes, you can make it work. It is a challenge. You have to make the decision whether or not to notify programs about your situation. Personally, I probably would. Programs want good applicants and most reasonable PDs would want to know about your limited interview availability. I’ve known a few GMOs who came from overseas and some programs are willing to do what it takes to accommodate you. I’d argue that your chance of matching at such a program is pretty high.

Programs are really busy right now with the current match cycle. It after that dies down sometime before the match I’d consider contacting the PCs of the programs you are interested in.
 
I just matched PM&R PGY2
I’m deployed with 14 months left in my commitment. I did my interviews while I was state side with the approval from my commander. Good luck everyone!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Hoping to awaken this post again... thanks to everyone who left advice and experiences- I've read it all.

I have 18 months left and will be stationed in Japan for the duration. Planning to apply to the 2021 match this summer for OBGYN Categorical (no OBGYN Advanced spots). M.D. with categorical OBGYN internship at NMCSD.

The Bad: I have little (no?) opportunity to network in person, AND I will be deployed during the 2020 annual ACOG meeting, likely until DEC. I do not have a nearby MTF with OBGYN. Additionally, I want to apply to a very limited geographical area as spouse is AD Air Force and I'd like to see her at least once in a blue moon.
The Good: 85th-95th percentile STEP scores, good class ranking, AOA, have maintained a relationship with internship PD and APD, have demonstrated ongoing interest in OBGYN as a FS (running contraceptive clinics, women's health working groups, etc.)

Questions for those who have been through ERAS:
--Is it possible to punt all interviews until January? I literally cannot interview before then. Other suggestions for navigating this conundrum?
--My APD is happy to reach out to programs (Emory?!?) on my behalf, but, what should I ask her to do/ what should I expect to do?
--Is there a chance in hell of this working???

TIA.

Hoping to awaken this post again... thanks to everyone who left advice and experiences- I've read it all.

I have 18 months left and will be stationed in Japan for the duration. Planning to apply to the 2021 match this summer for OBGYN Categorical (no OBGYN Advanced spots). M.D. with categorical OBGYN internship at NMCSD.

The Bad: I have little (no?) opportunity to network in person, AND I will be deployed during the 2020 annual ACOG meeting, likely until DEC. I do not have a nearby MTF with OBGYN. Additionally, I want to apply to a very limited geographical area as spouse is AD Air Force and I'd like to see her at least once in a blue moon.
The Good: 85th-95th percentile STEP scores, good class ranking, AOA, have maintained a relationship with internship PD and APD, have demonstrated ongoing interest in OBGYN as a FS (running contraceptive clinics, women's health working groups, etc.)

Questions for those who have been through ERAS:
--Is it possible to punt all interviews until January? I literally cannot interview before then. Other suggestions for navigating this conundrum?
--My APD is happy to reach out to programs (Emory?!?) on my behalf, but, what should I ask her to do/ what should I expect to do?
--Is there a chance in hell of this working???

TIA.

This may be one of the years that is most beneficial to GMO's getting out, as standardized letters will be fewer as away rotation for MS4's are made less available, and the structure of the in-person interviews may be changing due to the COVID19 pandemic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Hi everyone! I came here looking for advice because I'm hoping to apply to civilian residencies after military service, but I am unclear as to the timeline.

I'm aiming for Navy HPSP and couldn't find out when/where GMO tours are supposed to be completed whether immediately after medical school or sometime after residency. Is it even an option to finish Navy HPSP of four years at my civilian med school, then complete a civilian residency and then do GMO tours? If you have any insight as to how this process works, I'd greatly appreciate it.
 
Hi everyone! I came here looking for advice because I'm hoping to apply to civilian residencies after military service, but I am unclear as to the timeline.

I'm aiming for Navy HPSP and couldn't find out when/where GMO tours are supposed to be completed whether immediately after medical school or sometime after residency. Is it even an option to finish Navy HPSP of four years at my civilian med school, then complete a civilian residency and then do GMO tours? If you have any insight as to how this process works, I'd greatly appreciate it.

For active duty programs GMO tours typically happen after your internship year (before real residency starts). If there are no active duty internship/residency spots available for you then you may be offered a deferment (civilian internship/residency). If you have to accept a deferment you do internship/residency straight through at a civilian program in the individual ready reserve. When you come back on to active duty to pay back your HPSP time you will be paying back as the residency-trained staff physician that you are, not as a GMO.

Spend some time searching/reading the basics on SDN. You can also try Military Service Options For Every Step of the Aspiring Physician's Path - The Military Physician
 
Top