class rank/gpa requirements for externships?

[graphite988]

---

Members don't see this ad.

current 3rd year who just applied to externships. i keep hearing 1 million different things about how rank does matter/doesn't matter for programs and how some cut offs that are listed are absolute/aren't absolute. Can someone who has been through this process explain a little bit about this? say a program has a 3.0 GPA requirement listed- is that a hard requirement? Additionally how much does your CV matter? I'm so tired of hearing different things from students who have yet to go through this process and just want to know what it's actually like.

 

[Feli]

It is a hard requirement if they get the type and volume of apps they want.
If it's a slow app year, they will change it... basically like how everyone wants to date 9s and 10s - until they realize only 5s and 6s want to date them.

You have to remember that some good programs get 100+ clerk apps (and take 30+ clerks annual), and other programs get almost no clerk apps or clerks.

CV doesn't matter for clerkships... good programs get a ton of apps, and there is just not enough time to care about intramural volleyball or VP of women club or whatever. It is typically just some junior resident or program secretary filtering through them. They will just use rank/gpa and passed pt1 boards first try to weed out real bad clerks and decide which ones get top choice months.

CV is good to have polished and might matter a tiny bit on residency interviews, but those mainly go from clerks (at good programs)... or gpa/rank for non-clerks.

 

[Robin-jay]

Usually GPA isn't a hard requirement.

Programs will value your interpersonal skills more than anything else. Just being able to talk to staff and patients, be able to work as a team, take criticism, be humble.

 

[Feli]

Usually GPA isn't a hard requirement.

Programs will value your interpersonal skills more than anything else. Just being to talk to staff and patients, be able to work as a team, take criticism, be humble.

That is bad advice.
How will a program value - or ever see - your 'interpersonal skill' and ability to 'talk to staff and patients' and 'humble' nature if you don't get the clerkship because gpa/rank are too low relative to their other apps... or the app shows failed pt1? Just curious. Because... they won't see beyond that.

The question is about apps for clerkships. It's a basic app where they skim over stats fast; it's not an interview.
Bad gpa/rank will fail to get some clerkships, fail to get month of choice for others. If somebody bottom third of their class is applying to UPMC, Inova, Orlando... they will prob not get their choice month and likely won't get those at all. It's smart to pick more backup clerk spots and/or less competitive clerk programs if lower rank. Better gpa/rank will have access to most/all accepts and top choice months. It's that simple; always has been that way year after year.

Anyone who has done residency or visit at any fairly popular program knows this.
Low and mid programs take basically any clerk app they get; popular ones are usually more selective because they get more/better interest. Some top programs have 5x or 10x as many clerks each cycle as they have match spots, but they still want the best clerks they can get. That's common sense.

...What you're suggesting applies once on the externship rotations (personality, soft skills, work ethic, quick thinking), but that stuff does nothing to help the app for getting them a clerk spot at the places one wants or for choice of months. At residencies where they get a lot of clerk visit apps, they have to weed some out quick. It is not some extensive eval for clerk apps; they are not video interviewing you or calling your references or even looking at the CV much/any. It's usually just a pgy2 or admin assist sorting the online apps (with directive from director or assist director or chief resident to just simply pick highest gpa/rank for any months with abundance of apps). Some residencies have a bit of bias to certain pod schools they've had great/bad prior clerks from also. Regardless, a clerk student app is just a piece of paper or a scan on a computer with numbers to them at that stage; don't overthink it.

 

[Robin-jay]

That is bad advice.
How will a program value - or ever see - your 'interpersonal skill' and ability to 'talk to staff and patients' and 'humble' nature if you don't get the clerkship because gpa/rank are too low relative to their other apps... or the app shows failed pt1? Just curious. Because... they won't see beyond that.

The question is about apps for clerkships. It's a basic app where they skim over stats fast; it's not an interview.
Bad gpa/rank will fail to get some clerkships, fail to get month of choice for others. If somebody bottom third of their class is applying to UPMC, Inova, Orlando... they will prob not get their choice month and likely won't get those at all. It's smart to pick more backup clerk spots and/or less competitive clerk programs if lower rank. Better gpa/rank will have access to most/all accepts and top choice months. It's that simple; always has been that way year after year.

Anyone who has done residency or visit at any fairly popular program knows this.
Low and mid programs take basically any clerk app they get; popular ones are usually more selective because they get more/better interest. Some top programs have 5x or 10x as many clerks each cycle as they have match spots, but they still want the best clerks they can get. That's common sense.

...What you're suggesting applies once on the externship rotations (personality, soft skills, work ethic, quick thinking), but that stuff does nothing to help the app for getting them a clerk spot at the places one wants or for choice of months. At residencies where they get a lot of clerk visit apps, they have to weed some out quick. It is not some extensive eval for clerk apps; they are not video interviewing you or calling your references or even looking at the CV much/any. It's usually just a pgy2 or admin assist sorting the online apps (with directive from director or assist director or chief resident to just simply pick highest gpa/rank for any months with abundance of apps). Some residencies have a bit of bias to certain pod schools they've had great/bad prior clerks from also. Regardless, a clerk student app is just a piece of paper or a scan on a computer with numbers to them at that stage; don't overthink it.

I reached out to programs before I applied to their externship and showed my interest via a personal E-mail, or at locations I knew before I even started podiatry school, places I lived before, etc.

Obviously some or even most programs don't know you at all before you apply, but it's inaccurate to say you can't interject yourself in a gentle way beforehand to show interest.

You can't just say "bad advice" all the time lol.

 

[graphite988]

It is a hard requirement if they get the type and volume of apps they want.
If it's a slow app year, they will change it... basically like how everyone wants to date 9s and 10s - until they realize only 5s and 6s want to date them.

You have to remember that some good programs get 100+ clerk apps (and take 30+ clerks annual), and other programs get almost no clerk apps or clerks.

CV doesn't matter for clerkships... good programs get a ton of apps, and there is just not enough time to care about intramural volleyball or VP of women club or whatever. It is typically just some junior resident or program secretary filtering through them. They will just use rank/gpa and passed pt1 boards first try to weed out real bad clerks and decide which ones get top choice months.

CV is good to have polished and might matter a tiny bit on residency interviews, but those mainly go from clerks (at good programs)... or gpa/rank for non-clerks.

this isn't accurate because boards pt 1 scores are not submitted with clerkship applications, so that wouldn't be a factor in decisions. i'm just confused on how they're fairly evaluating clerkship apps when some schools have a lot of GPA inflation and others don't. it's not a standard comparison and i'm left wondering how they're even filtering out these applications. also if they're not looking at your CV...why ask for one?

 

[deleted1134196]

current 3rd year who just applied to externships. i keep hearing 1 million different things about how rank does matter/doesn't matter for programs and how some cut offs that are listed are absolute/aren't absolute. Can someone who has been through this process explain a little bit about this? say a program has a 3.0 GPA requirement listed- is that a hard requirement? Additionally how much does your CV matter? I'm so tired of hearing different things from students who have yet to go through this process and just want to know what it's actually like.

I know a lot of people who have sub 3.2 GPAs who failed part 1 once OR twice, and still went to middle of the road programs and even some very high powered programs (of course those view points are subjective). I do agree with Feli that GPA/rank will be a superficial identifier if it comes down to you and another applicant, however, how often that happens i am unsure. I also agree with Robin-Jay too, so there is a double edge to it all. Coming from someone currently in externships, i didn't get a program I wanted for a certain month, and I am top of my class, passed boards first time etc, so not sure ultimately what caused it, but it is what it is. Some programs literally can't take you a certain month, even if you are a 4.0 with a perfect boards score and president of the women's club etc etc. Something I have learned is show up on time, right place, right uniform, right attitude, talk when you need to, be willing to help, show genuine interest, and don't be a d**k.

 

[Feli]

I reached out to programs before I applied to their externship and showed my interest via a personal E-mail, or at locations I knew before I even started podiatry school, places I lived before, etc.

Obviously some or even most programs don't know you at all before you apply, but it's inaccurate to say you can't interject yourself in a gentle way beforehand to show interest.

You can't just say "bad advice" all the time lol.

Where did you match... or scramble?

Programs with dozens (or 100+) applicants don't have time for that "interject yourself" nonsense. You submit your letter of interest and basic rank/gpa/cv app like anyone else. They can take a lot more clerks than match spots (so yes, bad gpa ppl can still get good program clerk spots if they're flexible on months). Programs have to weed out apps (efficiently) - esp for popular months. The idea of, "well this guy has low rank but sounded so humble when he randomly called" doesn't hold water. Sorry.

Again, mid and lower quality programs will take pretty much anyone who applies.
It is 99% gpa/rank (and maybe pod school) for competitive programs/months.

I know a lot of people who have sub 3.2 GPAs who failed part 1 once OR twice, and still went to middle of the road programs and even some very high powered programs...
...i didn't get a program I wanted for a certain month, and I am top of my class, passed boards first time etc, so not sure ultimately what caused it, but it is what it is. Some programs literally can't take you a certain month, even if you are a 4.0 with a perfect boards score and president...

100%
A lot of top programs have 30+ clerk/core spots (yet only 2-5 match spots).
Clerkships aren't too competitive overall, esp for early cycle months (esp months like Apr/May when some pod schools aren't even out clerking yet). This becomes a pitfall for average pod students sometimes: thinking that because they get the clerkships, they will be competitive for the interview/match. That is a very risky strategy unless they really ace the rotation (and probably interview also).

Regardless, gpa/rank is still the tiebreak 99% of the time for clerk spots tho (same for residency interviews at places not clerked... or scramble); tale as old as time. I have sorted those apps in residency, and nobody if fine-tooth combing them. People overthink the clerkship app; it's mostly decided by the simple numbers. Sure, some residency programs just don't take clerks in July (new residents) or dont' take clerks CRIP month or some warm city ones won't take clerks after match (students just pick places to party) or have pod school biases or things like that, so yeah... even top pod student can get snubbed (although they'd usually be offered alt clerk month). 👍

 

[Robin-jay]

Where did you match... or scramble?

Programs with dozens (or 100+) applicants don't have time for that "interject yourself" nonsense. You submit your letter of interest and basic rank/gpa/cv app like anyone else. They can take a lot more clerks than match spots (so yes, bad gpa ppl can still get good program clerk spots if they're flexible on months). Programs have to weed out apps (efficiently) - esp for popular months. The idea of, "well this guy has low rank but sounded so humble when he randomly called" doesn't hold water. Sorry.

Again, mid and lower quality programs will take pretty much anyone who applies.
It is 99% gpa/rank (and maybe pod school) for competitive programs/months.

I matched to a good program. The most recent 3rd year graduate did trimalleolar fractures his first month out as an attending. However, you aren't forced to be good enough to do trimalleolar fractures skin to skin in the program. It's what you make it.

You have a very strange obsession with merit of everything, then also twist it to fit you're own situation.

You specifically say Barry is an amazing pod school because...you went there. You specifically say the residency you went to is top tier amazing elite...because you went there. You say fellowships are trash and make fun of them...because you didn't do one.

You are very good at promoting the paths you specifically took and trashing paths you didn't take, because its what you did or didn't do.

That being said, I agree that many programs are busy and "interjecting" yourself can be difficult.

I reached out the programs in my area, who are considered very good programs, and simply emailed the residency director my CV, said I lived around that area a great deal of my life, and strongly preferred to be around that area. I even mentioned I'd look at their program during a time in podiatry school when I had time, and the residents reached out and were receptive.

So no, I don't think "interjecting" yourself to top tier programs is a waste of time at all, before clerkships.

 

[deleted1134196]

OP, ultimately programs are going to be what you make of them. If you get a program to clerk at that you thought was out of your reach, awesome. If you don't, then whatever. A lot of "high powered programs" that my friends have been to end up falling flat for them. It's obviously different everywhere and depends how well you fit in. I went to a very renowned clerkship site and just did not fit in with the culture, which is fine. Every month you need to go in with an open mind and try to avoid bias as much as possible. I went in initially with your mindset, but once I decided to see for myself, life got a lot less stressful on externships.

 

[air bud]

I love how passing boards first time is a merit badge.....hey man I take it care of MY kids

 

[wakaflocka88]

I love how passing boards first time is a merit badge.....hey man I take it care of MY kids

Merit badge if it was on par with USMLE. APMLE is not. Joke of a trash exam. That’s why we all went to PODIATRY school.

 

[deleted1134196]

I love how passing boards first time is a merit badge.....hey man I take it care of MY kids

Agreed, but it seems to be the unfortunate reality.

 

[Bored Snorlax]

Merit badge if it was on par with USMLE. APMLE is not. Joke of a trash exam. That’s why we all went to PODIATRY school.

17% still flopped this year. Honestly that exam was all first-order questions. Felt like they were testing if we knew how to read.

 

[Sole Badguy]

Passing first try is almost a given for most students at this point. Putting it on your CV that you did so is like saying you know how to breathe with your mouth closed - you can impress better than that, c'mon guys

That being said, I agree that many programs are busy and "interjecting" yourself can be difficult.

I reached out the programs in my area, who are considered very good programs, and simply emailed the residency director my CV, said I lived around that area a great deal of my life, and strongly preferred to be around that area. I even mentioned I'd look at their program during a time in podiatry school when I had time, and the residents reached out and were receptive.

So no, I don't think "interjecting" yourself to top tier programs is a waste of time at all, before clerkships.

I mean, the prevailing advice for getting a non-residency affiliated hospital job directly after residency is to "put yourself out there", sometimes 1-2 years ahead of finishing. I didn't do what Robin did but I don't see how it would be too different with residency clerkships. At the very least, it can't hurt...but definitely brace yourself for rejection/indifference if your app is less than ideal.

 

[Feli]

I matched to a good program. The most recent 3rd year graduate did trimalleolar fractures his first month out as an attending. However, you aren't forced to be good enough to do trimalleolar fractures skin to skin in the program. It's what you make it.

You have a very strange obsession with merit of everything, then also twist it to fit you're own situation.

You specifically say Barry is an amazing pod school because...you went there. You specifically say the residency you went to is top tier amazing elite...because you went there. You say fellowships are trash and make fun of them...because you didn't do one.

You are very good at promoting the paths you specifically took and trashing paths you didn't take, because its what you did or didn't do.

That being said, I agree that many programs are busy and "interjecting" yourself can be difficult.

I reached out the programs in my area, who are considered very good programs, and simply emailed the residency director my CV, said I lived around that area a great deal of my life, and strongly preferred to be around that area. I even mentioned I'd look at their program during a time in podiatry school when I had time, and the residents reached out and were receptive.

So no, I don't think "interjecting" yourself to top tier programs is a waste of time at all, before clerkships.

Feel free to link to my posts that "specifically say" any of that. You are making things up.

Pod school doesn't matter much. They all have the same books, journals, clerkships. It's wise to go where DPM degree will be cheapest unless some significant reason to spend more. Students from all pod schools get good residencies every year.

Residency matters a ton. Many podiatry residencies are flat out inadequate. Others have too few good attendings, too little academics, too few good cases... or too few cases at all. Some residencies pass Abfas boards well, others struggle annually.

Those are my views, and it's the general advice on the forum (because it's logical for ppl to try for fair ROI and job options with DPM).

...What you are right about is that I will call out bad advice. This is a forum for ask/answer, and it's not good to post nonsense. With the scarcity of good pod residencies, clerkships do matter. A lot of your advice is consistently poor (residency doesn't matter, podiatry residency is too hard, $150k is fine, GPA doesn't matter... endless list of ridiculousness really).

You can go back onto ignore ... not sure how you came off it, but GL. Based on your complaints of podiatry school, match, residency... im sure your posts in a couple years on job search woes will be EPIC.

 

[Robin-jay]

Feel free to link to my posts that "specifically say" any of that. You are making things up.

Pod school doesn't matter much. They all have the same books, journals, clerkships. It's wise to go where DPM degree will be cheapest unless some significant reason to spend more. Students from all pod schools get good residencies every year.

Residency matters a ton. Many podiatry residencies are flat out inadequate. Others have too few good attendings, too little academics, too few good cases... or too few cases at all. Some residencies pass Abfas boards well, others struggle annually.

Those are my views, and it's the general advice on the forum (because it's logical for ppl to try for fair ROI and job options with DPM).

...What you are right about is that I will call out bad advice. This is a forum for ask/answer, and it's not good to post nonsense. With the scarcity of good pod residencies, clerkships do matter. A lot of your advice is consistently poor (residency doesn't matter, podiatry residency is too hard, $150k is fine, GPA doesn't matter... endless list of ridiculousness really).

You can go back onto ignore ... not sure how you came off it, but GL. Based on your complaints of podiatry school, match, residency... im sure your posts in a couple years on job search woes will be EPIC.

Again, saying it's bad advice to reach out to a clerkship you're interested is ludicrous. Just because you call it out, doesn't make it bad advice.

Also, it baffles me why you think I did poor in podiatry school, the match, surgical skills, etc.

Just because I don't sit on my high horse very often doesn't mean I'm doing poorly. It just means that acknowledge GPAs in podiatry school are mostly meaningless because of answer keys, etc.

I think there is a lot of virtue in being humble and acknowledging things that are uncomfortable when it doesn't benefit one's own self. Instead of saying how great I am for having a good GPA, I fully recognize how silly GPA is in podiatry school for the reasons I've stated.

 

[Weirdy]

Chill out guys.

Ok to reach out to interested programs but hard cutoffs are there for a reason.
They want the smartest brightest best of the bunch.
Their goal is to have a star resident.

Personality only comes into play after you pass their initial screen to get a clerkship.
Name brand places typically will auto screen out GPAs
Unless there is a slump in applications/ the program notices they havn't had that many clerks- than sure they may take more students that are lower stats/GPA to ensure they play yield protection.

Some places miss out on stellar students who have average GPAs
Some places don't

But the easiest way to screen hundreds of applicants is by numbers- a hard cutoff makes their lives easier.
No one at a program is going to spend time sifting through text messages to look at your personality first when its easier to look at your GPA and just maybe your CV if they feel like it.

I've seen 4.0s who could barely find themselves around a broom closet and people with really great personalities who didn't know basic academic stuff.

You need both. Stop thinking in extremes and exceptions.

 

[deleted1134196]

Passing first try is almost a given for most students at this point. Putting it on your CV that you did so is like saying you know how to breathe with your mouth closed - you can impress better than that, c'mon guys

Agreed, but for many people they do need any little "edge" if you want to call it that, that they can get. It also just lets places know up front they passed (pretty sure they already know anyway, but idk). Also, to be fair, a lot of students, including myself, studied long and hard for it so they want to show it off, per say. I didn't email or send letters to my clerkship sites before going and was still fine. I don't think there is anything wrong with it, but I can see how it would come off a "try hard". Ultimately, its whatever it takes to get a good clerkship where you can see yourself as a resident so you can get good training so you can get a good job so you can pay your loans and raise a family and pay the mortgage and the car payment and the kids college fund etc etc etc, because at the end of the day, none of the people on here will be paying that for anyone but themselves, so who cares what they think.

 

[iridocyclitiss]

I think if the podiatry recruiting continues to be abysmal it won't really matter what your rank or GPA is. it will be a buyers market for students.

I heard a statistic from a reputable source that current projections show that by 2029 if recruiting doesn't improve there will be over 300 open residency positions.

which is amazing. We need less podiatrists.

 

[PTPuser]

I think if the podiatry recruiting continues to be abysmal it won't really matter what your rank or GPA is. it will be a buyers market for students.

I heard a statistic from a reputable source that current projections show that by 2029 if recruiting doesn't improve there will be over 300 open residency positions.

which is amazing. We need less podiatrists.

I hope they shut down and drive up the demand.

 

[footshazam]

I think if the podiatry recruiting continues to be abysmal it won't really matter what your rank or GPA is. it will be a buyers market for students.

I heard a statistic from a reputable source that current projections show that by 2029 if recruiting doesn't improve there will be over 300 open residency positions.

which is amazing. We need less podiatrists.

it’s already that… before I left podiatry you wouldn’t believe the stories that I’ve heard and seen when it comes to podiatry.

Nothing matters in podiatry it’s people at the school I used to attend that haven’t passed part 1 but still on externships. I could say more but I won’t. Podiatry is unscrupulous point blank period. I appreciate what I learned here. I think you guys really help save students and help some leave too.

 

[Packers4lifeDPM]

GPA gets you your clerkship, what you do when you do your clerkship gets you your residency. Simple as that.