Class ranking and grades

[radian313]

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Hi everyone.

I am curious to know to what level do grades and class ranking matter?

I am a term 1 student and finished my first few modules, in which I am consistently ending up with 88%-92% rendering me at the top 1/3 of the class (around the 30% mark).

For my prospects of wanting to go into EM, would this track record help (if ofcourse I maintain it), or is it simply board scores?

I am also active in the school government association, and will likely get a position on the admissions committee soon as a student interviewer/evaluator....

I am just trying to get a feel for what I have done is the correct thing to think for in landing a prospective EM residency. Thank you.

 

[samac]

"I'm in the top 1/3 of the class tell me I'm good enough"
Lol.
Yeah you're fine. Keep it up and you should get a board score good enough for EM.

 

[AlteredScale]

Hi everyone.

I am curious to know to what level do grades and class ranking matter?

I am a term 1 student and finished my first few modules, in which I am consistently ending up with 88%-92% rendering me at the top 1/3 of the class (around the 30% mark).

For my prospects of wanting to go into EM, would this track record help (if ofcourse I maintain it), or is it simply board scores?

I am also active in the school government association, and will likely get a position on the admissions committee soon as a student interviewer/evaluator....

I am just trying to get a feel for what I have done is the correct thing to think for in landing a prospective EM residency. Thank you.

The NRMP Program Director survey is a great resource or one to use for questions of the sort: Results of the 2016 NRMP Program Director Survey

For EM, the highest factors ranked were: Letters of recommendation in desired specialty, grades in desired specialty (these are 3/4 year grades), and audition elective in specialty. Both class rank and USMLE Step 1 scores had similar rankings for importance (both below the things I listed above). So far what I have seen around here is that EM in particular seems to weigh heavily on creating connections via audition/selective rotations and getting strong SLOE's (standardized letter of evaluation).

81% would SELDOM consider applicants who fail Step 1 the first time.

Ranking high in your class and the other EC's are still great things to have and will help you no matter what but you still have a lot going for you in terms of performing well throughout your entire medical school career. Keep at it.

 

[radian313]

"I'm in the top 1/3 of the class tell me I'm good enough"
Lol.
Yeah you're fine. Keep it up and you should get a board score good enough for EM.

The NRMP Program Director survey is a great resource or one to use for questions of the sort: Results of the 2016 NRMP Program Director Survey

For interview selection in EM the highest factors ranked were: Letters of recommendation in desired specialty, grades in desired specialty (these are 3/4 year grades), and audition elective in specialty. Both class rank and USMLE Step 1 scores had similar rankings for importance (both below the things I listed above). So far what I have seen around here is that EM in particular seems to weigh heavily on creating connections via audition/selective rotations and getting strong SLOE's (standardized letter of evaluation).

For actually ranking interviewees for their program class ranking seems to take a few steps down, now ranking 13th in terms of citing factor where USMLE step 1 and 2 scores are ranked higher and interactions with the faculty and interviewer ranked the highest in considering the ranking of applicants in EM.

Ranking high in your class and the other EC's are still great things to have and will help you no matter what but you still have a lot going for you in terms of performing well throughout your entire medical school career. Keep at it.

Thank you for your swift replies.

Its been fun at my school. I love it so far. That said, I only asked this question because I literally got into a argument with a fellow classmate, who also wants to do EM but got very defensive when I stated my classrank and said how it will only help me gain my residency choice. I dont know, Im not one to be flash this out to just anyone as I consider this person to be a good friend, but they basically said "you are wasting your sleep trying to get A's when the person with C's is equally likely to get a competitive residency". Im a bit on the older side, so don't get me wrong, but I feel the newer generation is always looking to cut corners in my opinion.

 

[pseud0]

You know what you call the person who graduated last in your class?

A doctor

 

[Rekt]

Thank you for your swift replies.

Its been fun at my school. I love it so far. That said, I only asked this question because I literally got into a argument with a fellow classmate, who also wants to do EM but got very defensive when I stated my classrank and said how it will only help me gain my residency choice. I dont know, Im not one to be flash this out to just anyone as I consider this person to be a good friend, but they basically said "you are wasting your sleep trying to get A's when the person with C's is equally likely to get a competitive residency". Im a bit on the older side, so don't get me wrong, but I feel the newer generation is always looking to cut corners in my opinion.

Higher grades generally correlate with higher board scores. This is most likely due to study habits. Class rank for DOs does not matter all that much. Grades even less. Just you do you and not worry about others. Keep trying to do well and just tell your friend, yeah man whatever you think.

 

[radian313]

You know what you call the person who graduated last in your class?

A doctor

Except my query wasnt just about the DO or MD, its moreso I have specific interests as does anyone else. Im sure anyone can get by passing and get called a "doctor", thats their predicament.

Higher grades generally correlate with higher board scores. This is most likely due to study habits. Class rank for DOs does not matter all that much. Grades even less. Just you do you and not worry about others. Keep trying to do well and just tell your friend, yeah man whatever you think.

Yeh. It is what it is. thanks for your honest input.

 

[Rekt]

Except my query wasnt just about the DO or MD, its moreso I have specific interests as does anyone else. Im sure anyone can get by passing and get called a "doctor", thats their predicament.



Yeh. It is what it is. thanks for your honest input.

As @AlteredScale alluded to, the most important factors are the audition rotations + your SLOEs for EM. Then comes Step2>Step1>>>>Comlex 1>>Anything else. The reality for DO students is, EM is currently significantly increasing in competitiveness. A lot of people are seeing "200/hr + shift work!?!?" and jump on the EM hype train so it's becoming highly competitive. I imagine by the time you're applying it will be quite difficult to match into.

 

[InternistDO]

As @AlteredScale alluded to, the most important factors are the audition rotations + your SLOEs for EM. Then comes Step2>Step1>>>>Comlex 1>>Anything else. The reality for DO students is, EM is currently significantly increasing in competitiveness. A lot of people are seeing "200/hr + shift work!?!?" and jump on the EM hype train so it's becoming highly competitive. I imagine by the time you're applying it will be quite difficult to match into.

Don't forget though, that more EM programs are sprouting up to meet this demand. Yes, they're new programs and therefore may have some warts, but I don't think EM is going to be out of reach for DOs. At least according to what I've read.

http://emadvisor.blogspot.com/2016/11/application-overload.html

 

[Rekt]

Don't forget though, that more EM programs are sprouting up to meet this demand. Yes, they're new programs and therefore may have some warts, but I don't think EM is going to be out of reach for DOs. At least according to what I've read.

http://emadvisor.blogspot.com/2016/11/application-overload.html

Maybe so. We might then run into a problem of saturation with decreasing compensation, but alas, we will see.

 

[InternistDO]

Maybe so. We might then run into a problem of saturation with decreasing compensation, but alas, we will see.

Yeah it's a possibility. Either way I hope it's still doable in the future as a DO or my username is going to be quite silly.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

You know what you call the person who graduated last in your class?

A doctor

He wasn't implying that someone in the bottom of the class isn't going to be a doctor. That being said, if you're in the bottom of your class you probably won't match EM.

Except my query wasnt just about the DO or MD, its moreso I have specific interests as does anyone else. Im sure anyone can get by passing and get called a "doctor", thats their predicament.

I wouldn't go that far, especially as a first year just wetting your toes in the ocean. You haven't yet hit the combination of exhaustion, rigorous educational requirements, and extras that make medical school difficult.

Medical school is not easy and for many in your class they will struggle to obtain passing grades. Trivializing the reality that medical school is tough is a poor mindset to bear, both in regard to how such attitudes affect struggling students and in the devaluing of the work being done.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Maybe so. We might then run into a problem of saturation with decreasing compensation, but alas, we will see.

I imagine that by the time it happens the fad will have lifted and people will move onto whatever specialty their generation idolizes.

I personally believe that in 5 to 10 years psychiatry, neurology, and PM&R will probably eclipse EM in desire.

 

[Rekt]

I imagine that by the time it happens the fad will have lifted and people will move onto whatever specialty their generation idolizes.

I personally believe that in 5 to 10 years psychiatry, neurology, and PM&R will probably eclipse EM in desire.

Definitely can see psych spiking, probably PM&R, but why neuro?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Definitely can see psych spiking, probably PM&R, but why neuro?

The same reason that PM&R will likely increase in desire and demand. An increased emphasis, a more integrated paradigm, and exponential increases in terms of treatments and procedures.

 

[073116]

Just wondering if you can see everyone on class ranking in your class or it only gives you your percentile?

 

[073116]

I imagine that by the time it happens the fad will have lifted and people will move onto whatever specialty their generation idolizes.

I personally believe that in 5 to 10 years psychiatry, neurology, and PM&R will probably eclipse EM in desire.

Agree with PM&R, but not psych - after all money matters too and psych is ain't anywhere close to $$$ ain't nobody got time for dat

 

[InternistDO]

Agree with PM&R, but not psych - after all money matters too and psych is ain't anywhere close to $$$ ain't nobody got time for dat

Don't underestimate a cushy residency and the ability to work a private practice 9-5 as an attending.

 

[Rekt]

Just wondering if you can see everyone on class ranking in your class or it only gives you your percentile?

I've never heard of a school releasing everyone's ranks for all to see, that probably doesn't happen since it's a pretty private matter. As far as a hard rank vs. percent, that will depend on the school. For me, we were literally told X/YYY in the class.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Agree with PM&R, but not psych - after all money matters too and psych is ain't anywhere close to $$$ ain't nobody got time for dat

Psych isn't exceptionally far from the mean in medicine. It's also a field that you really can make what you want out of it. Similar to FM, if you want more you work more.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Don't underestimate a cushy residency and the ability to work a private practice 9-5 as an attending.

I'm not sure Psych is a cushy residency. It's still 55-60 hours of work. Sure, it's not the 80 of IM. But FM probably has similar hours. Likewise 9-5 is possibly in FM too.

 

[InternistDO]

I'm not sure Psych is a cushy residency. It's still 55-60 hours of work. Sure, it's not the 80 of IM. But FM probably has similar hours. Likewise 9-5 is possibly in FM too.

You're not wrong, but I'm hard pressed to think of an easier one, except maybe FM with a big outpatient focus like you said.
I was under the impression that psych made more money than FP would in more urban areas, but I could be wrong.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

You're not wrong, but I'm hard pressed to think of an easier one, except maybe FM with a big outpatient focus like you said.
I was under the impression that psych made more money than FP would in more urban areas, but I could be wrong.

PM&R, FM, and some more probably have just as many hours on average. I think FM can easily make as much they want, it's not unusual for new graduates to enter into group practices and make around 250k.

 

[InternistDO]

PM&R, FM, and some more probably have just as many hours on average. I think FM can easily make as much they want, it's not unusual for new graduates to enter into group practices and make around 250k.

Yeah I don't disagree with you, but just from talking to classmates the vibe I get is that psych is seen as a "chill" specialty where you might not make a boatload of money but you make enough without breaking your back. PM&R gets a similar rep. I'm in a big, hip NE city too, which means that family med salaries around here are pretty crappy (I've seen some for $130k). Like I said earlier though, EM is my goal so I haven't researched psych and FM as much.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Agree with PM&R, but not psych - after all money matters too and psych is ain't anywhere close to $$$ ain't nobody got time for dat

You can make decent amount of money, the problem is that you are not looking at the hours they work. They usually work 40 hours a week, if you pull those hours to 60s, I pretty sure a psych attending would be making more than 250k. You can look at the psych forums if you need confirmation from the attendings.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

You can make decent amount of money, the problem is that you are not looking at the hours they work. They usually work 40 hours a week, if you pull those hours to 60s, I pretty sure a psych attending would be making more than 250k. You can look at the psych forums if you need confirmation from the attendings.

I think a lot of people work 40 hours or less in psych for reasons too.

 

[starri]

Agree with PM&R, but not psych - after all money matters too and psych is ain't anywhere close to $$$ ain't nobody got time for dat

There is the rare bird who does psychiatry because they are interested in and have an aptitude for the specialty.

Also, salary in psych is location dependent. Particularly in big cities, demand outstrips supply. Plenty operate as cash-only businesses, which saves on overhead, and I know of at least one fancy NY practice that charges about $750 to be seen by one of the actual psychiatrists and $250 to be seen by one of the midlevel providers. They may have to pay rent on their fancy office, but that's still an insane amount of money.