clerkship grades

[azuka]

Thanks. I have been studying a lot and would give it my best shot come january. Where can I find statistics about different Ob/gyn programs? I have looked at a few website but they don't tell the average score or GPA. I did above average on step I. Im still trying to figure out what happened with medicine. Im also angry cause I gave it my best shot and did very well on the shelf.

Im not here for an english lecture. Trust me, that is far from my concerns now. This is not an official blog so technically, it is like fb and I use shorthands but the autocorrect that messes things up anyway.

Thanks for the advise btw. Next time forget the english. Alittle empathy has never killed anyone.

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[azuka]

This document should become your bible for residency applications. FWIW, 94% of US MD seniors who applied to OB/Gyn in 2011 matched, with an average Step 1 of 220. That puts it pretty close in competitiveness to IM and Peds (ie average to below-average in competitiveness).

Of course some programs will be more competitive than others, but there are very few data out there on stats for individual programs.

Thank you. This is very helpful. Would try to rock OB rotation and step 2 prior to applying to improve my chances of matching into a good location. Thanks again.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Merging two nearly identical threads by the same user.

 

[dr zaius]

Maybe you should figure out what you're doing wrong and try to fix it. It looks like it's something a bit more serious than one person giving you a bad eval. Maybe you should pay attention to the evaluations.

 

[KnuxNole]

y r u still on with forum since 2007? do the maths before judging.

uhh why wouldn't he be? It's not like this forum is only meant to be used for a few short months

 

[KnuxNole]

Im not here for an english lecture. Trust me, that is far from my concerns now. This is not an official blog so technically, it is like fb and I use shorthands but the autocorrect that messes things up anyway.

Thanks for the advise btw. Next time forget the english. Alittle empathy has never killed anyone.

This forum btw isn't like facebook. If it was, it'd be so horrible haha. Regular sentences are what everyone does because it's easier to read. The shorthand stuff is usually from high school girls/middle school people. That is why people were giving a hard time about it.

 

[VenusinFurs]

I know someone applied to a lot of academic centers in OB GYN (as opposed to community residencies) that were in California and Texas. The academic centers for the most part didn't invite her to interview. So when you do apply to OB GYN I'd recommend considering less competitive parts of the US (like the midwest as opposed to the coasts for example) and some community programs in addition to big medical centers (even though you'd get less exposure to high risk, etc).

 

[gravitywave]

*student
*and
*you

really? Are we doing the highschool dropout facebook thing now with our typing?

To answer your question - I doubt they will let you retake 3rd year over an average grade. Many schools dont even have formal grades for clerkships so many PDs don't put a whole lot of emphasis on them. Doing will in OB/gyn is going to be more important than this is anyways, and if you did well on step1 compared to averages for that specialty you should be fine. Your step1 score and letters will mean much more than a C in IM.

I suppose there are a handful of PDs that don't look hard at third year grades, but the vast majority do, and the vast majority of schools provide them. Schools that didn't have clerkship grades before have starting providing them. Stanford comes to mind.

The most important factors for Ob/Gyn interviews aren't much different from those of most other specialties: Step 1, Step 2, letters, clerkship grades.

This document should become your bible for residency applications. FWIW, 94% of US MD seniors who applied to OB/Gyn in 2011 matched, with an average Step 1 of 220. That puts it pretty close in competitiveness to IM and Peds (ie average to below-average in competitiveness).

Of course some programs will be more competitive than others, but there are very few data out there on stats for individual programs.

I just found out about http://www.apgo.org/component/residencedirectory seems pretty awesome.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I suppose there are a handful of PDs that don't look hard at third year grades, but the vast majority do, and the vast majority of schools provide them. Schools that didn't have clerkship grades before have starting providing them. Stanford comes to mind.

The most important factors for Ob/Gyn interviews aren't much different from those of most other specialties: Step 1, Step 2, letters, clerkship grades.



I just found out about http://www.apgo.org/component/residencedirectory seems pretty awesome.

That is what I was saying. They will look at them but they aren't a primary determinant. And most schools are P/F and maybe honors.

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[gravitywave]

That is what I was saying. They will look at them but they aren't a primary determinant. And most schools are P/F and maybe honors.

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Well I don't think we are saying quite the same thing... you're underplaying the importance of third year grades. Surveys consistently bear out the fact that clerkship grades are the single most important thing overall. The vast majority of US M.D. schools grade clerks on a scale with at least three intervals (H/P/F or equivalent) and many use four or more.

I'd call clerkship grades a primary determinant. You're right though that one part of the record generally isn't determinative on its own.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Well I don't think we are saying quite the same thing... you're underplaying the importance of third year grades. Surveys consistently bear out the fact that clerkship grades are the single most important thing overall. The vast majority of US M.D. schools grade clerks on a scale with at least three intervals, and many use four or more.

I'd call clerkship grades a primary determinant. You're right though that one part of the record generally isn't determinative on its own.

No. There is not a single survey I have seen that puts them that high. The PD survey lists usmle step 1 above clerkship grades. I believe that step2 and LOR are also above clerkship grades as well but not 100%

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[Raryn]

No. There is not a single survey I have seen that puts them that high. The PD survey lists usmle step 1 above clerkship grades. I believe that step2 and LOR are also above clerkship grades as well but not 100%

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While the variation in clerkship grading makes it more difficult for program directors to use it as a criteria, your core clerkship grades are most certainly among the most important factors for residency. Especially your grade in the specialty of interest. Does it beat out Step 1? No. Does it beat out your grade in a subi of your specialty of interest? No. But it's certainly far, far, far more important than your m1/m2 grades. That said, you can't go back and change it, and a few passes in specialties not the one you're applying to won't torpedo an otherwise good application. (A pass in your specialty of interest won't help you... but is also not fatal. Just makes it less likely you end up in a top program)

(As an aside: Only 6 schools out of 130+ are pass/fail during the core clerkships. As far as I know, all other schools, with the sole exception of Harvard, provide to the programs histograms of the grade distributions in each clerkship. So if 3/4 of the students at your school get Honors, the PDs will be able to see that, the same if only 1/10 do.)

 

[SpecterGT260]

While the variation in clerkship grading makes it more difficult for program directors to use it as a criteria, your core clerkship grades are most certainly among the most important factors for residency. Especially your grade in the specialty of interest. Does it beat out Step 1? No. Does it beat out your grade in a subi of your specialty of interest? No. But it's certainly far, far, far more important than your m1/m2 grades. That said, you can't go back and change it, and a few passes in specialties not the one you're applying to won't torpedo an otherwise good application. (A pass in your specialty of interest won't help you... but is also not fatal. Just makes it less likely you end up in a top program)

(As an aside: Only 6 schools out of 130+ are pass/fail during the core clerkships. As far as I know, all other schools, with the sole exception of Harvard, provide to the programs histograms of the grade distributions in each clerkship. So if 3/4 of the students at your school get Honors, the PDs will be able to see that, the same if only 1/10 do.)

I didn't say they were less important than pre clinical grades. That is silly.

Nothing you said here is contradictory to anything I said. All I said was they are non standard measures and that step1 and letters carry more weight. That statement doesn't imply that they are unimportant. Just that other things will offset this

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[KnuxNole]

The thing about clerkship grades is that in some schools, only 10% of people get Honors, 10% get High Pass and 80% get a "Pass". In those cases, it would seem like 70%-80% of people would be screwed for never getting honors. D:

Unless PDs take into consideration the distribution. Ideally, they should know that not everyone can be the top of the class.

 

[SpecterGT260]

The thing about clerkship grades is that in some schools, only 10% of people get Honors, 10% get High Pass and 80% get a "Pass". In those cases, it would seem like 70%-80% of people would be screwed for never getting honors. D:

Unless PDs take into consideration the distribution. Ideally, they should know that not everyone can be the top of the class.

He was correct that many schools give an approximate class rank. Ours does something like this with our deans letter.

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[Raryn]

The thing about clerkship grades is that in some schools, only 10% of people get Honors, 10% get High Pass and 80% get a "Pass". In those cases, it would seem like 70%-80% of people would be screwed for never getting honors. D:

Unless PDs take into consideration the distribution. Ideally, they should know that not everyone can be the top of the class.

As I said above, every single school that offers m3 grades except Harvard gives histograms of the distribution of grades in every clerkship as part of the deans letter. Bar graphs that show exactly, of the say, 200 people in your class, how many got honors, high pass, pass, etc. Some smaller proportion of schools also give an overall class rank, but that's nowhere near as standard.

 

[gravitywave]

No. There is not a single survey I have seen that puts them that high. The PD survey lists usmle step 1 above clerkship grades. I believe that step2 and LOR are also above clerkship grades as well but not 100%

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took me a minute to find a copy of this article but i did.

The PD survey that NRMP puts out every couple years is an interesting thing. They break the data out by pre- and post- interview. Unlike the post-, the pre-interview criteria isn't listed by mean importance, but instead by "percentage of programs citing each factor," a pretty different measure. Apparently 18% of PDs don't use Step 1 pre-interview, at all. Also, unlike this article, the NRMP surveys don't let us know which differences are statistically significant. Plus, they're asking different questions.

I think it's very likely that Step scores are overwhelmingly used as a first pass on interview files to winnow the field, past which point they are not particularly important compared to other things.

anyway, more relevant to the OP's point, i agree that provided a person doesn't fail a clerkship, has at least average Step scores, and does everything else expected of an interested applicant, matching somewhere in Ob/Gyn shouldn't be an issue. Where this person matches is the point at which grades start to become stressful.

 

[azuka]

Hey guys, I contested the grade and it got changed. My other evaluations were also good. I really wished this attending had given me a fair chance to do well by providing the midterm feedbacks she was supposed to. But the good news is Im relieved that the problem was not me; given that I just met someone who is repeating the course because the same attending gave them fails. He is the second person I have met with this problem. In addition, all my other attendings in other rotations have loved me. Here is the deal, If you are not a White Female, she fails you. I am so glad I never have to deal with them again.

 

[DrSnips]

Hey guys, I contested the grade and it got changed. My other evaluations were also good. I really wished this attending had given me a fair chance to do well by providing the midterm feedbacks she was supposed to. But the good news is Im relieved that the problem was not me; given that I just met someone who is repeating the course because the same attending gave them fails. He is the second person I have met with this problem. In addition, all my other attendings in other rotations have loved me. Here is the deal, If you are not a White Female, she fails you. I am so glad I never have to deal with them again.

Congratulations. Sounds like an injustice was righted.