Clinician-Scientist Pay vs MD

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Hi guys,

I've been doing a lot of soul-searching these part couple of weeks. I'm really interested in research and I really do enjoy doing it, hence the reason for considering becoming a physician-scientist. However, at the end of the day, it keeps coming up in my head that clinician-scientists make significantly less than people that just go through the MD route. I've even read that the money saved on med school by being a clinician scientist is pennies compared to the amount that MD's haul in as physicians. I know I shouldn't be obsessed with the money and more about the passion, but it's something that keeps coming up in the back of my head. Could someone provide some insight as to how the financials of being an MD-PhD work? How much do they make on average? How much do the top clinician scientists make? And more importantly, how much would I make doing a 60/40 split of clinical to research?

Thanks for any insight.

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have a read through this thread:

 
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I read the entire post and (I'm an undergrad, so some of the terms kinda bounced) I mostly felt that it's between 80k-160 starting out. But then I saw 2 or 3 people saying it was between 250k and 375k which seems more in line with what I was thinking based on a 50/50 split. Could you offer some insight for someone that would be looking to do a 50/50 or 60/40 between clinic and research? Thanks in advance!
 
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I read the entire post and (I'm an undergrad, so some of the terms kinda bounced) I mostly felt that it's between 80k-160 starting out. But then I saw 2 or 3 people saying it was between 250k and 375k which seems more in line with what I was thinking based on a 50/50 split. Could you offer some insight for someone that would be looking to do a 50/50 or 60/40 between clinic and research? Thanks in advance!
Income, especially in academia, depends on so many factors it’s very very hard to give you solid numbers but the aforementioned thread has good discussion on various ways that number comes out.

my personal perspective as someone in med school — more senior folk pls feel free to correct me — is that if you know you are passionate about research *now* and want a research career *now* then you can do the PhD, move on to residency and still have complete freedom how to move your career forward: continue on the research track, go to industry, bail for Pp, join academia but in other forms of research or as fully clinical / admin faculty. Chances are who gets Paid how much and for what will change by the time you finish training in ~14-16 years after starting med school if you stay on the md/PhD path.
 
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I would say that money shouldn't be a factor either way in your decision to do MD-PhD. An MD-PhD is not a degree you choose if you want to be rich, but no matter what you'll be comfortable at least - you'll start around $100k (maybe a little less in very early career) with the potential to rise to $200k (or more) depending on many factors, geography, research-clinical breakdown, your own negotiating skills... If you would not be able to live the lifestyle you envision on a salary of $100k, this is probably not the right career path for you.
 
I would say that money shouldn't be a factor either way in your decision to do MD-PhD. An MD-PhD is not a degree you choose if you want to be rich, but no matter what you'll be comfortable at least - you'll start around $100k (maybe a little less in very early career) with the potential to rise to $200k (or more) depending on many factors, geography, research-clinical breakdown, your own negotiating skills... If you would not be able to live the lifestyle you envision on a salary of $100k, this is probably not the right career path for you.

This is simply wrong for most fields. Mid-career physician scientists in my field are essentially indistinguishable from pay of clinical colleagues (1.5-2.5x your higher number).
 
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In general academics pay less than practice in the private sector. How much less depends on your specialty. Clinician-researchers, regardless of degree, are generally paid in the same ballpark as full time clinicians in the same department, sometimes a marginal amount less for their research time than for their clinical time.

Overall an MD/PhD has all the same options for career and compensation as a straight MD, but choosing a research/academic career generally means accepting somewhat lower pay than you would get in full time clinical care outside academics. You definitely won't be living on rice and beans either way though, so I wouldn't sweat this issue.
 
I have personally given up hundreds of thousands of dollars in salary by doing research instead of straight clinical. This doesn't include those four years I spent on a PhD that I'm still struggling to use.

Doesn't sound appealing? Don't do research. Research doesn't pay as much as clinical work. It's also less stable. How exactly it will work out for you depends on the specialty and institution.
 
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I have personally given up hundreds of thousands of dollars in salary by doing research instead of straight clinical. This doesn't include those four years I spent on a PhD that I'm still struggling to use.

I don't know, I feel like the option to *not* accumulate massive debt on the front end, where it really matters as a young person starting out one's career, is huge. Over the course of a lifetime you may make that debt+interest back, but not having a $2K/mo loan repayment bill as a fellow/new attending really makes a difference to your life in a way that you might not notice as an older person at the end of your career.
 
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There was a longer thread for several years ago when I said doing MD PhD in a "devious" way can actually be a very financially savvy thing to do here:
MD/PhD salary

Actually more than 10 years ago! How time flies. Some of the people ahead of me at the time (Vadar, etc) have left academia.

There was a more recent thread where I discussed in some detail how this works with compound interest:

Do some reading young grasshopper and we can circle back lol. Your assumptions are all, *completely wrong*. Picking a job as a clinician-researcher vs. something else is generally not a financially savvy thing to do. But that's not the decision you are looking at. Clearly, doing the MD PhD allows you to become things other than a clinician-scientist, and the PhD portion of the MD PhD is one of the highest yield educational investments out there irrespective of your choice at that later point due to the magic of compound interest. For some unclear reason people don't articulate understanding this point, and yet time and time again they behave in a way that shows that they understand this implicitly.

I would say that money shouldn't be a factor either way in your decision to do MD-PhD. An MD-PhD is not a degree you choose if you want to be rich, but no matter what you'll be comfortable at least - you'll start around $100k (maybe a little less in very early career) with the potential to rise to $200k (or more) depending on many factors, geography, research-clinical breakdown, your own negotiating skills... If you would not be able to live the lifestyle you envision on a salary of $100k, this is probably not the right career path for you.

Complete, utter nonsense. Not that there's anything wrong with living on 100k. There is at least one NIH MSTP grad who is a billionaire (Yancoupolous) and a handful of MSTP grads who have a known net worth (holding publicly traded assets) of at least 100M. I expect this number of increase given how many more recent grads are going into industry/tech/startup. Given the very small size of NIH MSTP this is on a per capita basis one of the most successful academic programs out there in terms of wealth generation.
 
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There was a longer thread for several years ago when I said doing MD PhD in a "devious" way can actually be a very financially savvy thing to do here:
MD/PhD salary
[...]
Complete, utter nonsense. Not that there's anything wrong with living on 100k. There is at least one NIH MSTP grad who is a billionaire (Yancoupolous) and a handful of MSTP grads who have a known net worth (holding publicly traded assets) of at least 100M. I expect this number of increase given how many more recent grads are going into industry/tech/startup. Given the very small size of NIH MSTP this is on a per capita basis one of the most successful academic programs out there in terms of wealth generation.
I think what we are describing is a fundamental difference of values. I am not denying that anyone with the intelligence or hard work to get into an MD-PhD program would be capable of making a lot of money in medicine, biotech or anywhere. However, the MSTP represents a huge public investment in an individual to advance the field of medicine, by a country that is not known for the generosity of its public investment. The fact that a physician-scientist career also offers salaries that are well into the 90th percentile of national income ($200k+) and would allow anyone to live comfortably is a nice side benefit as well. However, I think accepting that investment upfront (funded by taxpayers who by and large are making far less money) with the *goal* of making lots of money is unethical.
 
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I think what we are describing is a fundamental difference of values. I am not denying that anyone with the intelligence or hard work to get into an MD-PhD program would be capable of making a lot of money in medicine, biotech or anywhere. However, the MSTP represents a huge public investment in an individual to advance the field of medicine, by a country that is not known for the generosity of its public investment. The fact that a physician-scientist career also offers salaries that are well into the 90th percentile of national income ($200k+) and would allow anyone to live comfortably is a nice side benefit as well. However, I think accepting that investment upfront (funded by taxpayers who by and large are making far less money) with the *goal* of making lots of money is unethical.

The problem is not your values. It's your assumptions--which are factually all wrong:

1. US is by far the nominal $ leader in R&D spending per capita.

2. The idea that public investment into private economic productivity somehow "takes away" from some fixed pie of potential public investments is myopic and not even true, see this:

Given that the NIH spends about 50M a year on this program, the capital investment is actually TINY. It's not a "major public investment" by any stretch of the imagination. 50M is typically ONE series A fund round at a VC for a biotech. Global yearly funding of VC biotech is 17 BILLION. A real "major public investment" would be on the ordre of NYC DOE, which has a yearly budget of 25 BILLION. 50k a year spent on one student for someone to figure out what he/she wants to do with their life is negligibly small such that it's absurd to struggle to apply to a training program because of imaginary ethical global policy level implications of collective behavior.

3. People who make a lot of money also contribute a lot of tax base.
In terms of practicalities, if you want to be able to afford services for those who make far less money, it's imperative for the public to invest in opportunities that can encourage future wealth creation. Top 10% of income receive about 50% of total income and pay 70% of total taxes. I'm not sure what's so unethical about just taking money that the future you will contribute back into society to help the less fortunate.


4. Even if you don't think about nominal dollar of wealth, someone like Yancoupolous can be more valuable in terms of actual human value writ large vs. your typical R01 basic science professor in the sense of contribution to "better mankind". Even with an apple to apple comparison of a billionaire biotech entrepreneur with someone like Greg Semenza or someone more remote like Alfred Gilman. Who really contributed more to humanity? I don't think it's that easy to claim one way or the other.

5. Your idea is not congruent with the STATED GOAL OF NIH for MSTP:

"The NIGMS Medical Scientist Training Program (MSTP) provides.. awards to medical institutions for the training of qualified M.D.-Ph.D. dual-degree students who are motivated to undertake biomedical research and research-related careers in academia, industry, and government."

Medical Scientist Training Program

Nowhere does this say you must stay in academia (in a low paying specialty) and make less than $X a year. That is NOT a stated goal of MSTP. I suppose you could argue a private practice in X Y Z is not "research-related" enough...LOL but I think that's just a pretty sad argument...

6. Finally, and most importantly, the argument I make is independent of your choice of career, which substantially undermines your point's relevancy. It's purely a mathematical calculation based on compound interest. You can want to be the lowest-paid physician-scientist or highest-paid private practitioner at the start of your decision-making point of whether you apply to MD/PhD or MD-only, and you'll still be better off ending up with an MD/PhD regardless of whether you are "earnest" or "devious".
 
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**Selection. Bias.**

Not sure about that. Obviously can't do a randomized trial of this, but do you really think someone like Yancoupolous could have become a billionaire if he didn't have the appropriate training as an MD/PhD? Several people I know are now running companies that have market cap in the 100M range (series C funding) doing bench to bedside Phase II studies. Several people are running funds that specialize in investing in these types of companies. I feel like it's not just a "selection bias". There's real cause and effect there.
 
Hey guys, I've read what everyone has said thus far and here's what I feel as of right now. Correct me if I'm wrong.

For me, when considering an MD-PhD, I really have no idea what candy land people are living in where they think I'm willing to pass up the opportunity to make 800k+ and do small-time research as an MD with a fellowship just to be an MD-PhD that makes 100-200k a year and spent 4 more years learning. I came to SDN expecting people to give the brute, honest truth - the conflict between responses here has me thinking otherwise.

To state my questions and concerns more clearly (and sorry if any of the above was harsh, I'm just frustrated that I've been online for the past week and still not enough info):

Is it possible, within the bounds of reason, as an MD-PhD, to make the 600k+ that I see MD specialties making?

From a noobie, undergraduate, really inexperienced point of view such as my own (think of being totally unaware of any of these terms people are using like the DDHMI and so many other things), I have no idea what is right or wrong with all the conflicting information in these posts. I see people saying starting 80k and going up to 200k, while I see others saying you'll make equal to MD in your specialty.

Send help,

A really confused undergrad

Edit: Also, is anyone here down to answer a metric **** ton of questions I have over a call or something. I have so so many and could use help. If so pm me

The variability you are seeing is because MDs vary a ton in compensation, both between specialties and between practice venues (academic low end specialty like FP/peds/psych usually low six figures, well run boutique private ENT/derm/plastics could be 7 figures I think).

Doing MD/PhD does not change the opportunities available to you vs straight MD as far as clinical practice and associated reimbursement. It's just that research pays less than clinical, and MD/PhDs are more likely to choose research.

You can certainly make 600K as an MD or MD/PhD doing clinical work in certain specialties. You are unlikely to make that much as an MD or MD/PhD doing primarily research.
 
Chair or successful in industry.

800k+ vs 100-200k is a false dichotomy. Most docs even 100% clinical are not making 600k+.

I was talking about specialty doctors, which I saw in the salary stats
 
The variability you are seeing is because MDs vary a ton in compensation, both between specialties and between practice venues (academic low end specialty like FP/peds/psych usually low six figures, well run boutique private ENT/derm/plastics could be 7 figures I think).

Doing MD/PhD does not change the opportunities available to you vs straight MD as far as clinical practice and associated reimbursement. It's just that research pays less than clinical, and MD/PhDs are more likely to choose research.

You can certainly make 600K as an MD or MD/PhD doing clinical work in certain specialties. You are unlikely to make that much as an MD or MD/PhD doing primarily research.

I think this is the answer I needed to read because it lines up with everything everybody has said. So theoretically, could I, as an MD/PhD, do a LOT of clinical and just a little research? What do hospitals push their clinician-scientists to? I've heard that they really want them to do clinical bc it brings in money
 
Hey guys, I've read what everyone has said thus far and here's what I feel as of right now. Correct me if I'm wrong.

For me, when considering an MD-PhD, I really have no idea what candy land people are living in where they think I'm willing to pass up the opportunity to make 800k+ and do small-time research as an MD with a fellowship just to be an MD-PhD that makes 100-200k a year and spent 4 more years learning. I came to SDN expecting people to give the brute, honest truth - the conflict between responses here has me thinking otherwise.

To state my questions and concerns more clearly (and sorry if any of the above was harsh, I'm just frustrated that I've been online for the past week and still not enough info):

Is it possible, within the bounds of reason, as an MD-PhD, to make the 600k+ that I see MD specialties making?

From a noobie, undergraduate, really inexperienced point of view such as my own (think of being totally unaware of any of these terms people are using like the DDHMI and so many other things), I have no idea what is right or wrong with all the conflicting information in these posts. I see people saying starting 80k and going up to 200k, while I see others saying you'll make equal to MD in your specialty.

Send help,

A really confused undergrad

Edit: Also, is anyone here down to answer a metric **** ton of questions I have over a call or something. I have so so many and could use help. If so pm me

While it is certainly possible to make this much as primarily a researcher, it is extremely, extremely rare and that kind of money is generated by researchers through private partnerships, sitting on boards, owning spinoff companies, being a VC, etc. Planning a career betting you will be one of those people, who got there generally because they have accomplished something very significant, impactful, and profitable in their research, would be ludicrous in my opinion.

If you want to make 600k+, become an MD and go into private practice in a surgical or procedural subspecialty (or radiology) and just dont bother at all with academics let alone research, frankly. If you're passionate about research, then you'll have to really disabuse yourself of the notion of making that kind of money with a primarily research based career unless you become a department chair or similar (again, contingent on building an academic record and reputation that even most who do everything "right" will never enjoy), and even then you'd likely be 50+ at that point.

Again, there's a lot of conflicting information because what researchers/academics get paid depends on:

1. institution
2. specialty
3. academic rank
4. sources of research funding
5. amount of research funding
6. % of effort spent on research vs. clinical vs. admin vs. education vs. private collaborations vs. personal ventures vs. ....
7. gender/race/academic politics

and probably more. A neurosurgeon doing 50% research has a completely different income/wealth trajectory than a pediatric heme/onc doc doing 80% research. Any combination of these factors will produce different trajectories and outcomes. But the bottom line is if it's important to you to make 500k+ then it's simply a bad calculation, in my opinion, to do MD/PhD or any research at all.

edit: everyone else beat me to it before I typed this way too long response lol
 
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I think what we are describing is a fundamental difference of values. I am not denying that anyone with the intelligence or hard work to get into an MD-PhD program would be capable of making a lot of money in medicine, biotech or anywhere. However, the MSTP represents a huge public investment in an individual to advance the field of medicine, by a country that is not known for the generosity of its public investment. The fact that a physician-scientist career also offers salaries that are well into the 90th percentile of national income ($200k+) and would allow anyone to live comfortably is a nice side benefit as well. However, I think accepting that investment upfront (funded by taxpayers who by and large are making far less money) with the *goal* of making lots of money is unethical.

Agree with just about all of the points made by sluox. I'm on the other end of the training pipeline, and the MSTP seems like a trivial investment by the US government.

Labs are getting NIH-subsidized, highly motivated and intelligent grad student labor. There's a strong argument that this is a double win, as most MSTP grad student stipends are far lower than a starting tech salary.

Graduates of MSTPs have a pretty good literacy in scientific method and the process of medicine. Yes, it's important that this trained workforce advances academic medicine, but it may be just as important to disseminate this understanding as deeply into society as possible outside the ivory tower. I think having even more MSTPs in industry, private practice, consulting would be a win. The gulf in understanding between researchers and clinicians is huge and pervasive. GaxxloPfizerSquib should be paying an MSTP 500K not to practice medicine and advise them on how dumb some of their drug discovery ideas are.

Whatever the intended goal of the MSTP, at the end of the day it's a structure put in place by the NIH that creates a community of physician scientists, and IMO, like any community, its members don't all have to play the same role.
 
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I think this is the answer I needed to read because it lines up with everything everybody has said. So theoretically, could I, as an MD/PhD, do a LOT of clinical and just a little research? What do hospitals push their clinician-scientists to? I've heard that they really want them to do clinical bc it brings in money

Just get a MD if you want to make money doing clinical work. Five extra years of schooling/lost wages in a PhD is not worth a free MD.
 
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I think this is the answer I needed to read because it lines up with everything everybody has said. So theoretically, could I, as an MD/PhD, do a LOT of clinical and just a little research? What do hospitals push their clinician-scientists to? I've heard that they really want them to do clinical bc it brings in money

The system is not set up for people to do 'a little bit of research.' Research requires funding, which is competitive to obtain, and cannot be obtained by people who devote very little time to it. The only way to do 'a little bit of research' is to tack yourself on to someone else's project; typically for an MD you would have some clinical skill that is needed in a study trial. This is very variable and situational and not something where you could control the availability and % time spent on a long-term basis. Also in order to have access to collaborators at all you would typically need to be at an academic institution, thus putting yourself on the low end of the salary range for clinicians in your specialty.

The way to make gobbets of money as an MD or MD/PhD is to choose a lucrative specialty and leave academia. Doing any research at all, even a little bit, generally requires that you remain in academia, thereby accepting that your compensation will generally be on the lower end of whatever range is possible in your specialty.
 
Agree with just about all of the points made by sluox. I'm on the other end of the training pipeline, and the MSTP seems like a trivial investment by the US government.

Labs are getting NIH-subsidized, highly motivated and intelligent grad student labor. There's a strong argument that this is a double win, as most MSTP grad student stipends are far lower than a starting tech salary.

Graduates of MSTPs have a pretty good literacy in scientific method and the process of medicine. Yes, it's important that this trained workforce advances academic medicine, but it may be just as important to disseminate this understanding as deeply into society as possible outside the ivory tower. I think having even more MSTPs in industry, private practice, consulting would be a win. The gulf in understanding between researchers and clinicians is huge and pervasive. GaxxloPfizerSquib should be paying an MSTP 500K not to practice medicine and advise them on how dumb some of their drug discovery ideas are.

Whatever the intended goal of the MSTP, at the end of the day it's a structure put in place by the NIH that creates a community of physician scientists, and IMO, like any community, its members don't all have to play the same role.



The system is not set up for people to do 'a little bit of research.' Research requires funding, which is competitive to obtain, and cannot be obtained by people who devote very little time to it. The only way to do 'a little bit of research' is to tack yourself on to someone else's project; typically for an MD you would have some clinical skill that is needed in a study trial. This is very variable and situational and not something where you could control the availability and % time spent on a long-term basis. Also in order to have access to collaborators at all you would typically need to be at an academic institution, thus putting yourself on the low end of the salary range for clinicians in your specialty.

The way to make gobbets of money as an MD or MD/PhD is to choose a lucrative specialty and leave academia. Doing any research at all, even a little bit, generally requires that you remain in academia, therefore accepting that your compensation will generally be on the lower end of whatever range is possible in your specialty.

So like sluox said, and some other people, the play is to get the MD/PhD (and only the PhD part if you care about the prestige / network of people / research skills that can be applied) and then fully specialize like an MD would. And this would bring in the high figure salaries?
 
So like sluox said, and some other people, the play is to get the MD/PhD (and only the PhD part if you care about the prestige / network of people / research skills that can be applied) and then fully specialize like an MD would. And this would bring in the high figure salaries?

No, this is also a terrible strategy. No one knows which (if any) specialities will be highly compensated in 10-15 years. Just jump straight into banking or tech if you want to make money right now.
 
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So like sluox said, and some other people, the play is to get the MD/PhD (and only the PhD part if you care about the prestige / network of people / research skills that can be applied) and then fully specialize like an MD would. And this would bring in the high figure salaries?

dude. or dudette. You're welcome to game the system, but you should really be in finance for your stated goals.
 
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They makin pennies over there lol. And i do like science, i really do, but im not foolish enough to invest 15 years to find out at the end it isn't what I'm looking for. Id rather be asking the tough questions now

Its very clear being a PhD is not the best or most efficient way to make money. If you like science, watch the discovery channel or read a non-fiction book. If you want to do science as a career, be prepared to make (much) less than you might otherwise.
 
1. US is by far the nominal $ leader in R&D spending per capita.
The page you yourself linked doesn't even support that assertion. The US not the top spender by any of the metrics: in absolute terms, it's China. As a percentage of GDP and per capita, it's Israel. As a percentage of GDP the US doesn't even make top 10 - ranking below Germany and a bit above Slovenia or Belgium. But anyway, I meant more generally willingness to fund public goods, including research but also education (US ranked 65), universal healthcare (unranked...), etc.

2. The idea that public investment into private economic productivity somehow "takes away" from some fixed pie of potential public investments is myopic and not even true, see this:

Given that the NIH spends about 50M a year on this program, the capital investment is actually TINY. It's not a "major public investment" by any stretch of the imagination. 50M is typically ONE series A fund round at a VC for a biotech. Global yearly funding of VC biotech is 17 BILLION. A real "major public investment" would be on the ordre of NYC DOE, which has a yearly budget of 25 BILLION. 50k a year spent on one student for someone to figure out what he/she wants to do with their life is negligibly small such that it's absurd to struggle to apply to a training program because of imaginary ethical global policy level implications of collective behavior.
What you are failing to consider is that the program is very small, with few MD-PhD training spots nationally and limited capacity for schools to expand them. While the absolute investment may not be very large, the per capita investment is quite large; the cost to train each MD-PhD is somewhere between $500k-1m, split between the MSTP, F30/F31 grants, other NIH grants, state taxes (for state schools) and university endowments. The problem is not that it will break the NIH's bank, but that places are scarce and most applicants do not get a spot anywhere (only about a third of applicants get accepted anywhere, out of a pool that is already heavily self-selected), so people who join the program without the intention of practicing medicine or doing research are taking spots from people who do.

3. People who make a lot of money also contribute a lot of tax base.
In terms of practicalities, if you want to be able to afford services for those who make far less money, it's imperative for the public to invest in opportunities that can encourage future wealth creation. Top 10% of income receive about 50% of total income and pay 70% of total taxes. I'm not sure what's so unethical about just taking money that the future you will contribute back into society to help the less fortunate.

4. Even if you don't think about nominal dollar of wealth, someone like Yancoupolous can be more valuable in terms of actual human value writ large vs. your typical R01 basic science professor in the sense of contribution to "better mankind". Even with an apple to apple comparison of a billionaire biotech entrepreneur with someone like Greg Semenza or someone more remote like Alfred Gilman. Who really contributed more to humanity? I don't think it's that easy to claim one way or the other.
Ah yes, the Effective Altruism argument. The main barrier to funding public services is not lack of wealth creation but wealth inequality and in particular regressive taxation. The wealthiest Americans are paying less as a percentage of their income in taxes than the poorest; but we don't need to get into all of that here. The more pertinent point is, well by that logic, why do you need to accept public investment in order to do so? If your goal is to create wealth, and you believe doing so is virtuous because you will pay taxes that will go to services for poorer people, why not self-fund your way through med school, or work in industry straight out of undergrad, or for that matter work in finance?

5. Your idea is not congruent with the STATED GOAL OF NIH for MSTP:

"The NIGMS Medical Scientist Training Program (MSTP) provides.. awards to medical institutions for the training of qualified M.D.-Ph.D. dual-degree students who are motivated to undertake biomedical research and research-related careers in academia, industry, and government."

Medical Scientist Training Program

Nowhere does this say you must stay in academia (in a low paying specialty) and make less than $X a year. That is NOT a stated goal of MSTP. I suppose you could argue a private practice in X Y Z is not "research-related" enough...LOL but I think that's just a pretty sad argument...

"I suppose you could argue a private practice in X Y Z is not "research-related" enough...LOL but I think that's just a pretty sad argument" - I don't see what your problem is; obviously, becoming a full-time private practitioner is patently incongruous with that stated goal?

But I think this is a good opportunity to take a step back here: I specifically never said I thought the problem was MD-PhDs going into industry; indeed I believe there are valid reasons for an MD-PhD to go into industry. I said the problem is accepting the public investment in research that the MD-PhD represents with the goal of using it for wealth generation, whether that be in industry or in private practice.

An analogy that comes to mind is the investment that goes into military training - it is very expensive and gives the trainee very valuable skills, tuition-free. Naturally, this training comes with a service requirement to make sure the government and the public receive value from this investment (whether the investment in the military actually provides a public good is immaterial to my analogy). If they had wanted to at the inception of the program, I'm sure the NIH could have conditioned receiving MSTP funding on completing residency, or Peace Corps service, or some sort of postdoctoral scientific service requirement. I think the choice to make the funding "no strings attached" is an expression of good faith: the NIH is understanding that there are multiple definitions of a successful outcome when it comes to "undertak[ing] biomedical research and research-related careers," and also that life happens and people's goals at the end of a long training program may not be the same as the goals they had coming in, and doesn't want to tie someone down to a career they no longer wish to pursue.

I am of the belief that this good faith should be reciprocated. It is not some huge sacrifice to live on "only" $200k or $300k a year - without debt, this income is already enough to make you wealthy; why does it matter if it's not "as wealthy" as some private practitioner making $800k a year? When you apply, you have to explain your reasons for wanting to do an MD-PhD, and all programs are looking for candidates who express a desire to use the training for a research career. If you make that commitment without the intention of following through, you are deliberately misrepresenting yourself, to the detriment of other qualified candidates. This is not being "devious", it is taking advantage of a system deliberately designed to have few protections against being taken advantage of.
 
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1. MD/PhD is intended to produce majority researchers. Majority researchers tend to make less than their counterparts within their specialty. If you want to
be a minority researcher and potentially make more money but stay within academics, why do the PhD? You don't need it, and financially four years of your life for free med school is not a good trade.

2. If you want to make a lot of money, some specialties do make more. Go be a neurosurgeon and even in academics total comp averages are in the 600k range. Again, you don't need a PhD for that.
 
So like sluox said, and some other people, the play is to get the MD/PhD (and only the PhD part if you care about the prestige / network of people / research skills that can be applied) and then fully specialize like an MD would. And this would bring in the high figure salaries?

Why are you even on this board? PhD is not useful for prestige or anything else except obtaining the knowledge and skills required to conduct scientific research. I don't understand why you are even considering a program that has nothing at all to do with your stated goals.
 
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The page you yourself linked doesn't even support that assertion. The US not the top spender by any of the metrics: in absolute terms, it's China. As a percentage of GDP and per capita, it's Israel. As a percentage of GDP the US doesn't even make top 10 - ranking below Germany and a bit above Slovenia or Belgium. But anyway, I meant more generally willingness to fund public goods, including research but also education (US ranked 65), universal healthcare (unranked...), etc.


What you are failing to consider is that the program is very small, with few MD-PhD training spots nationally and limited capacity for schools to expand them. While the absolute investment may not be very large, the per capita investment is quite large; the cost to train each MD-PhD is somewhere between $500k-1m, split between the MSTP, F30/F31 grants, other NIH grants, state taxes (for state schools) and university endowments. The problem is not that it will break the NIH's bank, but that places are scarce and most applicants do not get a spot anywhere (only about a third of applicants get accepted anywhere, out of a pool that is already heavily self-selected), so people who join the program without the intention of practicing medicine or doing research are taking spots from people who do.


Ah yes, the Effective Altruism argument. The main barrier to funding public services is not lack of wealth creation but wealth inequality and in particular regressive taxation. The wealthiest Americans are paying less as a percentage of their income in taxes than the poorest; but we don't need to get into all of that here. The more pertinent point is, well by that logic, why do you need to accept public investment in order to do so? If your goal is to create wealth, and you believe doing so is virtuous because you will pay taxes that will go to services for poorer people, why not self-fund your way through med school, or work in industry straight out of undergrad, or for that matter work in finance?



"I suppose you could argue a private practice in X Y Z is not "research-related" enough...LOL but I think that's just a pretty sad argument" - I don't see what your problem is; obviously, becoming a full-time private practitioner is patently incongruous with that stated goal?

But I think this is a good opportunity to take a step back here: I specifically never said I thought the problem was MD-PhDs going into industry; indeed I believe there are valid reasons for an MD-PhD to go into industry. I said the problem is accepting the public investment in research that the MD-PhD represents with the goal of using it for wealth generation, whether that be in industry or in private practice.

An analogy that comes to mind is the investment that goes into military training - it is very expensive and gives the trainee very valuable skills, tuition-free. Naturally, this training comes with a service requirement to make sure the government and the public receive value from this investment (whether the investment in the military actually provides a public good is immaterial to my analogy). If they had wanted to at the inception of the program, I'm sure the NIH could have conditioned receiving MSTP funding on completing residency, or Peace Corps service, or some sort of postdoctoral scientific service requirement. I think the choice to make the funding "no strings attached" is an expression of good faith: the NIH is understanding that there are multiple definitions of a successful outcome when it comes to "undertak[ing] biomedical research and research-related careers," and also that life happens and people's goals at the end of a long training program may not be the same as the goals they had coming in, and doesn't want to tie someone down to a career they no longer wish to pursue.

I am of the belief that this good faith should be reciprocated. It is not some huge sacrifice to live on "only" $200k or $300k a year - without debt, this income is already enough to make you wealthy; why does it matter if it's not "as wealthy" as some private practitioner making $800k a year? When you apply, you have to explain your reasons for wanting to do an MD-PhD, and all programs are looking for candidates who express a desire to use the training for a research career. If you make that commitment without the intention of following through, you are deliberately misrepresenting yourself, to the detriment of other qualified candidates. This is not being "devious", it is taking advantage of a system deliberately designed to have few protections against being taken advantage of.

Sorry, can't contain myself...
That's really the long con, subsisting on slave wages for most of your 20s, ceding control of your graduation date to a yet-unknown PI...
BrbdRfQ.png
 
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It's fine to consider money and finances. One should have a clear head about what you want out of life. But don't try to fit a square peg in a circle hole. Unfortunately, science is not the way to fame and fortune. Medicine can be at least the path to fortune, but there are easier, more enjoyable things to do for money IMO if you can tolerate the work. Go into big tech /high finance at 21-23 and even if you make less in the short term or even the long term you will likely build way more wealth in your lifetime than any academic MD who took out mortgage-level debt to go to med school or an MD/PhD who doesnt get their first attending job until 40.
 
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There seems to be two opposing views: (1) you can make a lot of money under conditions, (2) but it is unethical to do so because the goal is a research career. I just want to add some context into why people may think differently.

For (2), most of you guys will not have a "successful research career." I am sorry to be blunt, but this is just a reflection of the statistics. Even if you are successful in getting an K and R, chances are you will stop doing research eventually. Also, as discussed in the research track residency thread, you are also not likely to actually do research but rather teach, write grants, present, meetings, etc. Basically secondary stuff. You will constantly be begging the NIH, NSF, etc.

The reality is therefore that there is a lot of ups and downs. There will be many times where you have to fall back on a lot of clinical work. I'm talking 100% clinical and 20% writing grants. Even in good times, you may spend 20% of your time in clinic. It is natural therefore to wonder whether you can be making bank when you are working clinically to maximize financial efficiency.

Academic hospitals are generally inefficient places at the individual attending level. They will give you more work and pay you less than the market while you are trying to raise funds for your research. The extra money goes mainly to administration and support staff. And I am not talking about nurses or technicians, but e.g. the people in billing. This naturally makes all but the most agreeable people mad. You may notice that young attendings are very quick to pick up inefficiencies in the system and become "jadded." As a result, there is a lot of thought about alternative routes like scientist in industry, private practice + academic affiliation because people do not want to be stuck in an unhappy situation.

Most of us did not enter an MD/PhD program knowing this stuff. We were all starry eyed and thought we would do research as a career, but the devil is in the details.
 
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Is it possible, within the bounds of reason, as an MD-PhD, to make the 600k+ that I see MD specialties making?

So like sluox said, and some other people, the play is to get the MD/PhD (and only the PhD part if you care about the prestige / network of people / research skills that can be applied) and then fully specialize like an MD would. And this would bring in the high figure salaries?

Few people on this board actually did the math, as many suggest you go into banking or big tech. If you want to eventually land somewhere in medicine, based on my math your 3-4 years of PhD yield an income that's quite comparable to entry level banking/big tech, especially if you consider it on a per hour basis. See my other thread.

The idea that if you don't want to do research, you take a spot from someone more deserving is an interesting but invalid one:

1) there are practical issues to evaluate this ethical conundrum, e.g. at what X% FTE it'd be ethical to take a spot?

2) anyone who's involved in admissions knows that your stated intent of future career is not really factored into admissions, as in general people just assume you are either lying or don't know wtf u r talking about. So then it becomes this weird victimless crime scenario. These questions primarily exist to filter out people who can't figure out what the right things to say would be, i.e. people who lack soft skills--a critical component of sustaining a career in research.

The purpose of admissions process is to figure out if you are CAPABLE of having a career in research, not whether you want to or not--that's unstable and stochastic anyway. And it really doesn't matter what you say--if you are truly committed to research your TRACK record would speak louder than your supposed internal state of "lifelong commitment".

3) This "lying to get ahead" dynamic becomes amplified later on in your career, as part of your grantsmanship in academia, and more explicitly outside of academia in terms of marketing and business development. People who insist on only doing what they want to do don't get funded because what they want to do is not what funders are interested in. So they meet the funders where they are, and then use the funding to do additional work that they find more valuable. This dynamic happens in every industry, private, academia, etc. People are not robots (as someone says fitting pegs), life is a compromise. If you think every career related compromise and uncertainty is "unethical" you wouldn't get very far. What really matters is whether your narrative makes sense and if it's a good fit for the institution.

It's of course possible to make 600k+...you just don't use your PhD except as a mechanism to get your MD paid for. I don't see how this is different from doing 3 years of banking and then go to med school, if you enjoying spending your days at a lab instead of doing Excel spread sheets. I can only imagine that every tech bros who want to FIRE at 40 tell their boss that they want to quit their job after 5 years. No. LOL job applications are by definition a game. Know the rules.

Agree with just about all of the points made by sluox. I'm on the other end of the training pipeline...

Age really makes a difference. I used to think that it'd be really unfair if someone tries to game something competitive (i.e. a spot at Harvard, MSTP, etc.), until I realize that these things are kinda trivial vis-a-vis what happens AFTER Harvard/MSTP.
 
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Few people on this board actually did the math, as many suggest you go into banking or big tech. If you want to eventually land somewhere in medicine, based on my math your 3-4 years of PhD yield an income that's quite comparable to entry level banking/big tech, especially if you consider it on a per hour basis. See my other thread.

The idea that if you don't want to do research, you take a spot wtf, that's unethical. Hmmm.... But if your goal is "research related" then it's not unethical. So to be more precise, if you have the goal of doing research at what X% it'd be ethical to take a spot? I think this is nonsense-the idea of your stated intent of future career is even factored into admissions, since nobody can really read your mind. So then it becomes this weird victimless crime scenario.

This "ethical" calculus also becomes amplified later on in your career, as part of your grantsmanship. People who describe what they want to do often don't get funded because what they want to do is not what funders are interested in. Only entry level workers are narcissistic enough to think that what they really want to do in life matters.

It's of course possible to make 600k+...you just don't use your PhD except as a mechanism to get your MD paid for. I don't see how this is different from doing 3 years of banking and then go to med school, if you enjoying spending your days at a lab instead of doing Excel spread sheets.



Age really makes a difference. I used to think that it'd be really unfair if someone tries to game something competitive (i.e. a spot at Harvard, MSTP, etc.), until I realize that these things are kinda trivial vis-a-vis what happens AFTER Harvard/MSTP.

Is there a way I can dm you with some questions I have about being an Md PhD. If cool with you
 
Ah yes, the Effective Altruism argument. The main barrier to funding public services is not lack of wealth creation but wealth inequality and in particular regressive taxation. The wealthiest Americans are paying less as a percentage of their income in taxes than the poorest; but we don't need to get into all of that here. The more pertinent point is, well by that logic, why do you need to accept public investment in order to do so? If your goal is to create wealth, and you believe doing so is virtuous because you will pay taxes that will go to services for poorer people, why not self-fund your way through med school, or work in industry straight out of undergrad, or for that matter work in finance?

1. factually false again. The poorest (not even, the bottom 50%) pays 0% income tax, and in fact take back money such as EITC. While it is true that very extreme wealthy are able to pay a fairly low income tax, this tax rate increases quite a bit into the 90%ile.

This "myth" you spilled is primarily due to a highly problematic NYTimes article:
That created a very confusing and erroneous visual that seems to imply that income 0-10% pay same tax rate as 1%.

This field is well researched and Saez and Zucman et al are well in the fringe on this particular topic.

Secondarily, this doesn't affect my main argument. Billionaires pay a lower tax rate. So what? they still pay a HUGE AMOUNT of tax. If you get rid of wealth creation, you are gonna get screwed at time of redistribution. Inequality is problematic not because you get a higher amount to redistribute--it's because if you have a highly unequal society you get civil unrest which makes it harder to collect at time of redistribution.

You could advocate that there's a clawback for NIH MSTP, and this idea had been floated around. But one reason that this never got pushed through was some very simple investigations showed that if you clawback you are gonna hurt women and minorities because they drop out of science at higher rates. Beware of collateral damage when you pull things out of some hole. The idea that you need to know and commit to "sacrifice" so much to do X Y Z is one key component in career-oriented outcome disparity, if you care about that sort of thing.

2. I literally posted a long article on the justifications of public investment of private wealth creation. LOL Lots and lots of reasons.

The second point is actually not controversial--you only THINK it's controversial because you don't know what you are talking about. You should Google SBIR/STTR, NY Venture Direct, and that's not counting the very direct public funding of small businesses. Not everyone is meant for finance, There are reasons private entities don't give out student loans, and there are reasons certain public wealth creation mechanisms only exist for those with appropriate technical training. It's also not that easy to divide what is and isn't private investment. Public pensions hold lots of Regeneron stock. You need to expand your perspective to see that public policy is not just about dividing up a pie of a finite size that you bought from taxing the idle rich.
 
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In surgery, straight MDs generate millions of clinical revenue a year. Researchers (MD, MDPhD, PhD) bring in prestige and name recognition to the department. Surgeons who do research because that is they like to do. Salary difference between clinical MD vs research MD is not the great, depending on how individual deportment heads value research. Salary difference between MD and PhD is huge. My daughter is a current MDPhD student. Career choices would have been PhD vs MDPhD.
 
MD/PhD, from MSTP, now peds trained. This is a silly discussion from OP not understanding how medical school works.

Med School: 4 years, 100-250K price,
not including living expenses.
MD/PhD: No tuition, gets modest stipend, 7-10 years, depending on your luck and skill.

After that is said and done, THEN...

EVERYONE needs to do residency (3 years minimum of ridiculous hours at min wage) to practice medicine.

For example:
Pediatrician: Makes 150-200k, 3 year residency. Works 60 hours, hangs out with cute kids.
Pediatric Surgeon: Makes 500k+, ~10 years of residency/training. Works 80 hours, high performance-driven career.

Both had to get MD. Some surgeons were MD-PhD, some pediatricians were MD-PhD. Still needed post-graduate training to get to that pot of gold you are talking about...

and FYI OP: This is the brute truth. If you are concerned with the money so much, you won’t survive an MD-PhD, and you won’t survive medical school and a residency like ENT (5 years after MD) and get to make 500k in medicine. If you think you can cut it as a dermatologist, then your path is only 8 years total, but don’t go
into medicine thinking you’ll make it anywhere. It is the best of the best. And having my best friend in my MSTP currently as a derm resident I can tell you that if you do a PhD related to skin you are much more likely a shoe in to that field than someone with a project looking at the location of tanning booths in their city.

The path is way harder than the return. If you just want to do the fastest thing possible, apply to PA school: 2 years, to practice - no
residency, make 75k

I would not trade my PhD even if I don’t do any research in the future. I just kept thinking of that med school price tag when the road got tough. Being raised in a poor family, I was going to saddle myself or my parents with that kind of debt. Whether I choose research, or not, that’s up to me, according to NIGMS. Considering how difficult they make the climb nowadays, the MSTP funding is just a grain of sand in how much they have to invest for a real Physician-scientist pipeline.
 
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“[...]And if you really believe people that go into medicine are not *slightly* motivated by money, then you're a clown. Nobody wastes 15 years of their life schooling[...].”

I think your reply says to me that you won’t ever make it into medicine or any field related. You came for the ‘hard truth’ and recoiled defensively when someone gave it to you. I have interviewed kids like you and stamped a big red NO on their application.

Medicine is the only profession except for the Army or Clergy where you can’t ever choose where you end up training, or where you are posted for residency. It is not for everyone, and it is not the best way to make money. So, in your view, we are all clowns.

You can always mine bitcoin if you so desire.
 
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