Closing the gap???

[SoulinNeed]

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LOL. God ... I've had enough SDN for a while. Listen to absolutely nothing in this post.

What is wrong with what I said? That DOs have made great relative strides in the match? Most DOs go into Primary Care?

Or are you not sick and tired of seeing the SAME thread pop up everyday asking how difficult it is for a DO to get into dermatology and competitive surgery specialties?

Please inform me Jagger, why should people not listen to my post?

 

[willen101383]

You're being sarcastic, right? Cause my whole point is that Primary care isn't so bad, and the last numbers I looked at had like 60% of DOs doing Primary Care.

I was being sarcastic yes. And perhaps at some schools its like that...but not at mine. Depends what you are considering primary care. Are you considering primary care anyone that matches IM,FP,OBGYN,EM? Or saying primary care as in you are going to be a general practitioner?

At PCOM something like 30 people went straight FP on the 09 match list....which is like 12 percent of the class. A good chunk went to IM....and I bet of those individuals a pretty significant amount specializes from there into things like cardiology, heme/onc.

Going to a DO school doesnt force you into a life of mediocrity in FP in a small town in the midwest. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

[SoulinNeed]

I was being sarcastic yes. And perhaps at some schools its like that...but not at mine. Depends what you are considering primary care. Are you considering primary care anyone that matches IM,FP,OBGYN,EM? Or saying primary care as in you are going to be a general practitioner?

At PCOM something like 30 people went straight FP on the 09 match list....which is like 12 percent of the class. A good chunk went to IM....and I bet of those individuals a pretty significant amount specializes from there into things like cardiology, heme/onc.

Going to a DO school doesnt force you into a life of mediocrity in FP in a small town in the midwest. Quite the opposite in fact.

Honestly, I mainly just count FP and IM as Primary Care. Of course I know that going into a DO school doesn't force you into some small job in a small town, I'm just sick and tired of threads where people describe going into Primary Care as something horrific.

I actual plan on going into IM, and I'm just trying to paint it in a brighter light. If years from now, you're "have" to do Primary Care, relax and embrace it. You're still a doc, and you're still making good money.

 

[willen101383]

Honestly, I mainly just count FP and IM as Primary Care. Of course I know that going into a DO school doesn't force you into some small job in a small town, I'm just sick and tired of threads where people describe going into Primary Care as something horrific.

I actual plan on going into IM, and I'm just trying to paint it in a brighter light. If years from now, you're "have" to do Primary Care, relax and embrace it. You're still a doc, and you're still making good money.

I am still open minded about what I want to do...but I have a great deal of respect for IMs. There is something cool about having that great diagnostic ability that other specialties may lack.

I dont really intend on doing FP...but my 1st long term job out of college was as a clinical lab technologist at a large FP. The place had such a "homey" environment to it even with the large number of docs. THe patients were always bringing in goodies and what not for the doctors. Thinking back on that place gives me a warm feeling...not gonna lie.

I am sick of any time people talk down on another person for a decision they have made to go to a DO school. If you think being a DO is so horrible, dont be one, keep it to yourself, and let the DO to be prove your misconceptions wrong.

 

[Parts Unknown]

I want to play devil's advocate here and demonstrate how subjective match lists can really be. You classify them based on big names (granted, I know you're in a solid Allo IM program and know how to classify good vs. bad programs, etc, but just want to make a point). Let's do it by ROADS:

PCOM:

Rads: 4
Ophthalmology: 2
Anesthesiology: 6
Derm: 0
Surgical subs:
ENT/Facial Plastic: 3
PRS: 0
Ortho: 4

Drexel:

Rads: 5
Ophthalmology: 2
Anesthesiology: 6
Derm: 1
Surgical subs:
ENT/Facial Plastic: 2
PRS: 0
Ortho: 2

... pretty comparable there. Which means (drumroll) nothing!

I personally just wouldn't compare matchlists as a factor for much other than what the class was interested in.

Unless I'm reading the wrong links, your numbers are off. Perhaps mine are more accurate (or perhaps not).

PCOM (class size ~250):

Rads: 4
Ophthalmology: 2
Anesthesiology: 8
Derm: 0 🙁
Surgical subs:
ENT: 2
Plastics: 1?
Ortho: 5

Drexel (class size ~250):

Rads: 16
Ophthalmology: 8
Anesthesiology: 18
Derm: 4
Surgical subs:
ENT: 6
Plastics: 1
Ortho: 10

 

[NYDOC112]

You're being sarcastic, right? Cause my whole point is that Primary care isn't so bad, and the last numbers I looked at had like 60% of DOs doing Primary Care.

Really? These are the stats for the DO class that just graduated...
Primary Care*
Primary Care 24%
Non-Primary Care 75%
Undecided 2%
Total 100%

I think your numbers are way off on the 60% primary care...

http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/Documents/2008-
09SeniorSurvey.pdf

Also,

Osteopathic Residency 36%
Allopathic Residency 46%
Dual AOA/ACGME Approved Residency 14%
Government, NHSC, Military, V.A., etc. 2%
Other or Undecided 1%
Total 100%

 

[JaggerPlate]

Unless I'm reading the wrong links, your numbers are off. Perhaps mine are more accurate (or perhaps not).

PCOM (class size ~250):

Rads: 4
Ophthalmology: 2
Anesthesiology: 8
Derm: 0 🙁
Surgical subs:
ENT: 2
Plastics: 1?
Ortho: 5

Drexel (class size ~250):

Rads: 16
Ophthalmology: 8
Anesthesiology: 18
Derm: 4
Surgical subs:
ENT: 6
Plastics: 1
Ortho: 10

Whoops. Apparently that link (which instate provided) was a general 'match list' thread and I took the information from this first school in the thread. I thought this was Drexel (because I just clicked on the link), but apparently this was for 'Wright State.' I haven't reviewed Drexel (in that case), so I can only assume your info is accurate. So ... take mine as a comparison of PCOM to Wright State, I guess?? Also, PCOM lists their class size as around 250 but I only counted like 190 on that list???

Shrug? My whole point was kinda that match lists aren't a good indicator of much.

 

[Parts Unknown]

So ... take mine as a comparison of PCOM to Wright State, I guess??

Okay, but Wright State has a class size of ~100, and they proclaim that they are #4 in the percentage of students going into primary care.

Also, PCOM lists their class size as around 250 but I only counted like 190 on that list???

There are people who either don't enter the match (military, take positions outside the match, take time off, do research etc.) or don't successfully match.

The match list for Drexel actually has over 300 matches for a class of ~250, which is accounted for by people matching into both prelim spots and PGY-2 categorical spots in the same year.

 

[anon-y-mouse]

I thought this was going to be a post about the treatment of diabetic ketoacidosis when I clicked on it, but alas, no...

You folks are forgetting one factor - calculation of GPA. AMCAS has a different formula and includes more sciences in the science GPA, and also does not replace grades for classes that are retaken. Also, a 3.8 from Penn is not the same thing as a 3.8 from Penn State. People are already stratified in high school, and the cream of that crop tends to head to better schools like Penn. Better medical schools will often have students from better undergrad schools. The pedigree of students at Penn Med, for example, is a lot better Temple, is a lot better than Philadelphia Osteopathic. Take that how you will, but it is a fact. As for people going into competitive fields, say, radiology - it is a lot more meaningful to get a residency at HUP than it is at some random community hospital. Plus, if you want to go into academics or ascend the ranks of ivory towers, you really need to train at a powerhouse. The gap is still there.

The residency selection process still has not liberalized yet. It's reasonable to look at internal medicine programs since they have large #s of people and interview a lot, and a field that a lot of DO's tend to go into. Unless we see some New York osteopathic grads at Cornell or Columbia for IM, or Philadelphia Osteopathic grads at Penn IM, I don't think the gap will be closed.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Okay, but Wright State has a class size of ~100, and they proclaim that they are #4 in the percentage of students going into primary care.

Ugh, dude ....

My entire point is that comparing match lists is pointless. I didn't set out to compare PCOM to Wright State or anything else. Frankly, I don't even know where the hell Wright State even is (MI?).

Someone posted a link that said 'Drexel,' I opened it and reviewed the matches. I was unaware that this was a conglomerate thread that listed a bunch of MD school matches and I accidentally read the wrong school because it was the first one listed on the page. I'm not going to go back and delete what I said or anything. I goofed up, but my point remains the same ... comparing match lists is pointless.

Additionally, I don't know who randomly picked Philadelphia or PCOM/Drexel as the area of comparison.

FUTHERMORE, I've never once commented on the ease of matching said specialties, what it's like coming from the DO vs. MD world, etc.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

I hope the gap never closes because it gives people like me a chance at med school. If it ever closes it'll be like seeing that slim shimmer of of hope extinguish before mein eyes.

 

[willen101383]

I thought this was going to be a post about the treatment of diabetic ketoacidosis when I clicked on it, but alas, no...

You folks are forgetting one factor - calculation of GPA. AMCAS has a different formula and includes more sciences in the science GPA, and also does not replace grades for classes that are retaken. Also, a 3.8 from Penn is not the same thing as a 3.8 from Penn State. People are already stratified in high school, and the cream of that crop tends to head to better schools like Penn. Better medical schools will often have students from better undergrad schools. The pedigree of students at Penn Med, for example, is a lot better Temple, is a lot better than Philadelphia Osteopathic. Take that how you will, but it is a fact. As for people going into competitive fields, say, radiology - it is a lot more meaningful to get a residency at HUP than it is at some random community hospital. Plus, if you want to go into academics or ascend the ranks of ivory towers, you really need to train at a powerhouse. The gap is still there.

The residency selection process still has not liberalized yet. It's reasonable to look at internal medicine programs since they have large #s of people and interview a lot, and a field that a lot of DO's tend to go into. Unless we see some New York osteopathic grads at Cornell or Columbia for IM, or Philadelphia Osteopathic grads at Penn IM, I don't think the gap will be closed.

There actually were a few matches to Penn IM from PCOM I think in 07. I was digging through their match lists on SDN from years past. This argument never gets anywhere. The better DO schools arent going to attract your little spoiled brats who took every AP class in highschool, then went to some Ivy for undergrad, and another ivy for med school. But for the rest of us that is totally fine.

All i want to do is graduate medical school, match into a specialty I enjoy, and be a good doc who treats his patients well. I dont intend to ascend the ivory tower.....and I would venture to say that 80 percent of med students have no interest in doing that either. I dont think anyone is arguing the caliber of student at a DO vs a top notch powerhouse. I am arguing the quality of the actual education however. Do I really think my first year courses are being taught to a level below your typical MD program....even a top ranked medical school? Absolutely not. I think my professors are excellent...and many of them have been at Penn, Jeff, Temple, etc. I have spoken with physicians at many Philly med schools including Penn and they all say the quality of the medical students PCOM puts out is phenomenal.


As an aside: I personally know someone I went to grad school with who is a URM, never broke 25 on the MCAT, and is at Temple....


Sorry the match I mentioned earlier @ HUP was Anesthesia.

 

[willen101383]

Ugh, dude ....

My entire point is that comparing match lists is pointless. I didn't set out to compare PCOM to Wright State or anything else. Frankly, I don't even know where the hell Wright State even is (MI?).

Someone posted a link that said 'Drexel,' I opened it and reviewed the matches. I was unaware that this was a conglomerate thread that listed a bunch of MD school matches and I accidentally read the wrong school because it was the first one listed on the page. I'm not going to go back and delete what I said or anything. I goofed up, but my point remains the same ... comparing match lists is pointless.

Additionally, I don't know who randomly picked Philadelphia or PCOM/Drexel as the area of comparison.

FUTHERMORE, I've never once commented on the ease of matching said specialties, what it's like coming from the DO vs. MD world, etc.

FutureCTdoc picked PCOM vs Drexel....

 

[FutureCTDoc]

FutureCTdoc picked PCOM vs Drexel....

As Drexel and PCOM are comparable low/mid tier MD, upper echelon DO. Drexel has better matches. If you compared to HMS, it would be a turkey shoot.

 

[palm6758]

It really doesn't matter anymore