Clueless about Residency Match

[doctorE2010]

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If someone could fill me in on how this works I'd really appreciate it. I'm a MSII so I know this might be a bit premature, but it partly relates as to whether or not to take USMLE step 1. How does the match work for DO students? There are two matches right? One for DO and one for MD, but osteopathic students can apply for allopathic, right? Can we apply for both at the asme time? I'm really confused how this works out for DO students. I'm really leaning towards peds, and up until recently didn't think I needed to take USMLE, but do most programs take COMLEX scores??? This is way more frustrating than it needs to be

 

[Raggaman]

If someone could fill me in on how this works I'd really appreciate it. I'm a MSII so I know this might be a bit premature, but it partly relates as to whether or not to take USMLE step 1. How does the match work for DO students? There are two matches right? One for DO and one for MD, but osteopathic students can apply for allopathic, right? Can we apply for both at the asme time? I'm really confused how this works out for DO students. I'm really leaning towards peds, and up until recently didn't think I needed to take USMLE, but do most programs take COMLEX scores??? This is way more frustrating than it needs to be

Most MD programs will accept COMLEX but then again, some don't. Since in the 2nd yr most of us dont know what speciality, let alone what program we would like to apply for, taking the USMLE is a good idea. Don't let another $500 stand in the way to your future.

 

[DOanesthesia]

If you are going into family medicine, peds, or IM, the USMLE is not necessary. However, you still have over a year to change your mind. If there is a possibility that you might try for a competitive specialty, taking the USMLE will be to your advantage.

There are 2 separate matches. You can register and participate in both. However, the osteopathic match occurs a month before the allopathic match, and if you match osteo, you are automatically withdrawn from the allopathic match. So, if your first choice is an allopathic residency, you might not want to participate in the osteo match. If you don't have a preference then do both. Hope this helps!

 

[DrWBD]

Ideally, you should start learning about this stuff well before the USMLE Step 1, clerkships, and the Match. So no, you aren't too early. In fact, when I was a student, most of my peers were ridiculously clueless about taking the USMLE and getting a residency right up to the Match, and regretted it.

First, you should search the forums as your questions have been asked many times already.

Second, you need to read about this stuff. First Aid has some information about the match, USMLE, and COMLEX that is worth reviewing. You should also try to find a recent edition of Iserson's Getting Into A Residency. Don't buy these books, your library should have copies.

Third, by no means should you take advice about the USMLE or the "allopathic" match from your school administration. The agenda of an osteopathic medical school is to shuttle you into an AOA rotating internship and residency, period. The conflict of interest is too great for any meaningful advice to be given. In other words, "D.O.s eat their young".

Fourth, just because you want to do pediatrics does not mean that you shouldn't take the USMLE. There are competitive residencies in every specialty of medicine, and if you have the intelligence and grades, you shouldn't be held back by your boards (or by the lack of boards).

Hope this is helpful. Good luck.

 

[doctorE2010]

Thanks for the replies so far. I'm not so much worried about the USMLE I guess as I am wanting to not be limited geographically. Having not taken step I yet, I don't really know, but I doubt I'll be a very competitive applicant--my scores are usually pretty average on tests but I think I'll be fairly strong once it comes to rotations (I hope). I have a pretty specific question that I can't seem to find the answer to--maybe someone here might be able to help. I was looking specifically at Rainbow babies in Cleveland, which is obviously an allopathic residency (and pretty competitive I think) and noticed that there is also an osteopathic residency program through University Hospitals Richmond medical center http://www.uhhsrh.org/ which looks like they also go through rainbow babies???? http://www.uhhospitals.org/tabid/645/Default.aspx My question is, aside from being separate application processes, are these the same or different programs? Do the residents from both programs work together or are they separate entities? Is it common to find both DO and MD residency programs at the same hospital? I know this is a bit specific. Thanks for any insight!

 

[doctorE2010]

So I found that some programs are dual AOA/ACGME accredited--anyone know exactly how this works out for DO students? are they in the same program as the MD students? or is there a divide? thanks again.

 

[DocInProgress]

Stop asking questions and read the two books that wanna_be_do gave you - he speaks the truth.

 

[doctorE2010]

Stop asking questions and read the two books that wanna_be_do gave you - he speaks the truth.

I do plan on reading those books, however, what's the point of having these forums, if not to ask questions?

 

[DocInProgress]

I do plan on reading those books, however, what's the point of having these forums, if not to ask questions?

Because those 2 books will answer your questions better than anyone on this forum.

 

[drusso]

Ideally, you should start learning about this stuff well before the USMLE Step 1, clerkships, and the Match. So no, you aren't too early. In fact, when I was a student, most of my peers were ridiculously clueless about taking the USMLE and getting a residency right up to the Match, and regretted it.

First, you should search the forums as your questions have been asked many times already.

Second, you need to read about this stuff. First Aid has some information about the match, USMLE, and COMLEX that is worth reviewing. You should also try to find a recent edition of Iserson's Getting Into A Residency. Don't buy these books, your library should have copies.

Third, by no means should you take advice about the USMLE or the "allopathic" match from your school administration. The agenda of an osteopathic medical school is to shuttle you into an AOA rotating internship and residency, period. The conflict of interest is too great for any meaningful advice to be given. In other words, "D.O.s eat their young".

Fourth, just because you want to do pediatrics does not mean that you shouldn't take the USMLE. There are competitive residencies in every specialty of medicine, and if you have the intelligence and grades, you shouldn't be held back by your boards (or by the lack of boards).

Hope this is helpful. Good luck.

I think that both Iserson's and Jeremy's book have become dated. When Jeremy wrote the whole "DO's eat their young," there really was a sentiment that an osteopathic graduate was punished for just trying to get the best training possible regardless of accreditation status (ACGME vs AOA). The osteopathic profession really pushed the "you dance with the one that brought you."

I think that things have changed. So many DO's have matched at so many top allopathic institutions since the early and mid 1990's. Also, the AOA no longer measures your "osteopathicness" solely based upon your institutional and organizational affiliation.

Far and way, some of the most "osteopathically-minded" physicians I've met are MD's. The next step is for the AOA to open a training track or mechanism for MD graduates who want osteopathic training. I would imagine that this would involve completing or re-doing an osteopathic internship and completing post-doctoral OMT training through the AAO CME courses. I doubt few MD graduates would want to take advantage of this, but you never know.

MD's have been training FMG's since the beginning of formal graduate medical education. Maybe it's time for the osteopathic profession and the AOA to explore ways of training FMG MD's and US MD's too. It would show good faith and credibility to take such steps...besides, there are all those AOA internship and residency spots that go unfilled every year. I bet you that some FMG's would jump at the chance to take them even if it added a year or two to their training...

 

[DrWBD]

Thanks for the replies so far. I'm not so much worried about the USMLE I guess as I am wanting to not be limited geographically. Having not taken step I yet, I don't really know, but I doubt I'll be a very competitive applicant--my scores are usually pretty average on tests but I think I'll be fairly strong once it comes to rotations (I hope). I have a pretty specific question that I can't seem to find the answer to--maybe someone here might be able to help. I was looking specifically at Rainbow babies in Cleveland, which is obviously an allopathic residency (and pretty competitive I think) and noticed that there is also an osteopathic residency program through University Hospitals Richmond medical center http://www.uhhsrh.org/ which looks like they also go through rainbow babies???? http://www.uhhospitals.org/tabid/645/Default.aspx My question is, aside from being separate application processes, are these the same or different programs? Do the residents from both programs work together or are they separate entities? Is it common to find both DO and MD residency programs at the same hospital? I know this is a bit specific. Thanks for any insight!

There are many residencies that have their residents rotate at outside hospitals. Usually this is to fill a deficiency in the curriculum of the host residency program. For example, a community pediatrics program might not have very much PICU or NICU exposure, but the nearby university hosital pediatrics residency does. So, the community program will send a few of its residents there for a few weeks/months as outside rotators. This does not, by any stretch of the imagination, make you a resident of the big university program.

Frankly, a pediatrics program that needs to send its residents to an outside hospital is likely not a good residency.

Instead of setting your sights low, why not try to get into the better pediatrics program?

 

[doctorE2010]

There are many residencies that have their residents rotate at outside hospitals. Usually this is to fill a deficiency in the curriculum of the host residency program. For example, a community pediatrics program might not have very much PICU or NICU exposure, but the nearby university hosital pediatrics residency does. So, the community program will send a few of its residents there for a few weeks/months as outside rotators. This does not, by any stretch of the imagination, make you a resident of the big university program.

Frankly, a pediatrics program that needs to send its residents to an outside hospital is likely not a good residency.

Instead of setting your sites low, why not try to get into the better pediatrics residency?

Thanks for the feedback--I'm not trying to aim low, I just didn't know if these were the same programs or separate. That makes sense though. I don't know how one could justify have a peds residency at a hospital that didn't have pediatric patients (the one in Cleveland had no peds beds,so I was a bit confused)...thanks for clearing that up.

 

[DrWBD]

I think that both Iserson's and Jeremy's book have become dated. When Jeremy wrote the whole "DO's eat their young," there really was a sentiment that an osteopathic graduate was punished for just trying to get the best training possible regardless of accreditation status (ACGME vs AOA). The osteopathic profession really pushed the "you dance with the one that brought you."

I think that things have changed. So many DO's have matched at so many top allopathic institutions since the early and mid 1990's. Also, the AOA no longer measures your "osteopathicness" solely based upon your institutional and organizational affiliation.

Iserson's gets updated pretty regularly.
Jeremy Weiss' book has outdated information but I think the first few chapters are relevant even today. It wasn't that long ago that I graduated school, and while they didn't stop me from applying to ACGME programs they certainly didn't help much either. I agree with you that we've come a long way, but the fact that I had to justify my internship and petition for "acceptance", though, indicates to me that the AOA still has a long way to go.

Far and way, some of the most "osteopathically-minded" physicians I've met are MD's. The next step is for the AOA to open a training track or mechanism for MD graduates who want osteopathic training. I would imagine that this would involve completing or re-doing an osteopathic internship and completing post-doctoral OMT training through the AAO CME courses. I doubt few MD graduates would want to take advantage of this, but you never know.

MD's have been training FMG's since the beginning of formal graduate medical education. Maybe it's time for the osteopathic profession and the AOA to explore ways of training FMG MD's and US MD's too. It would show good faith and credibility to take such steps...besides, there are all those AOA internship and residency spots that go unfilled every year. I bet you that some FMG's would jump at the chance to take them even if it added a year or two to their training...

Holy thread hijack Batman! I think you were looking for this discussion. 🙂

 

[CorpusERdoc]

If someone could fill me in on how this works I'd really appreciate it. I'm a MSII so I know this might be a bit premature, but it partly relates as to whether or not to take USMLE step 1. How does the match work for DO students? There are two matches right? One for DO and one for MD, but osteopathic students can apply for allopathic, right? Can we apply for both at the asme time? I'm really confused how this works out for DO students. I'm really leaning towards peds, and up until recently didn't think I needed to take USMLE, but do most programs take COMLEX scores??? This is way more frustrating than it needs to be

To maximize your opportunity for the specialty & location of your choice, you need to take both the USMLE and COMLEX.

If you don't care where you go or about the quality of your education, take the COMLEX only.

 

[DOanesthesia]

If you don't care where you go or about the quality of your education, take the COMLEX only.

Only taking the COMLEX is not going to adversely affect your education. To imply otherwise is nonsense.

 

[CorpusERdoc]

Only taking the COMLEX is not going to adversely affect your education. To imply otherwise is nonsense.

It eliminates you from contention at some of the upper-tier academic residency programs.

 

[DrWBD]

Only taking the COMLEX is not going to adversely affect your education. To imply otherwise is nonsense.

..says the medical student. 🙄

If not taking the USMLE keeps you out of the running for a competitive ACGME resisdency, then yes, it adversely affects your education.

 

[DOanesthesia]

..says the medical student. 🙄

...Who pre-matched ACGME anesthesia without the USMLE. 🙄

 

[DrWBD]

...Who pre-matched ACGME anesthesia without the USMLE. 🙄

Your n=1. Do you honestly believe that your experience is generalizable to ALL other osteopathic students just because you yourself were successful without the USMLE?

For that matter, would taking the USMLE have hurt your application somehow (assuming you did as well or better on it as your COMLEX)?

Friends in my class were told during their interviews for competitive residencies (Gen Surg, Rads) that they wouldn't have gotten their interview had they not taken the USMLE.

 

[CorpusERdoc]

Your n=1. Do you honestly believe that your experience is generalizable to ALL other osteopathic students just because you yourself were successful without the USMLE?

For that matter, would taking the USMLE have hurt your application somehow (assuming you did as well or better on it as your COMLEX)?

Friends in my class were told during their interviews for competitive residencies (Gen Surg, Rads) that they wouldn't have gotten their interview had they not taken the USMLE.

I was told the same for emergency medicine...

 

[DOanesthesia]

Your n=1. Do you honestly believe that your experience is generalizable to ALL other osteopathic students just because you yourself were successful without the USMLE?

For that matter, would taking the USMLE have hurt your application somehow (assuming you did as well or better on it as your COMLEX)?

Friends in my class were told during their interviews for competitive residencies (Gen Surg, Rads) that they wouldn't have gotten their interview had they not taken the USMLE.

I agree. My experience is not generalizable to all osteopathic students. In fact, I have encouraged others to take the USMLE, especially if they are applying to competetive specialties. However, students should know that it is possible to match with COMLEX only. Take everything you read on SDN with a grain of salt.

 

[Bond8204]

I think it would be good advice to look at people who matched into programs of interest from your school and see what they did or recommend, if that's possible.

...Who pre-matched ACGME anesthesia without the USMLE. 🙄

Pre-matched? Sorry for my ignorance, but what's that mean?

 

[DrMom]

they signed a contract for an MD residency spot before the MD match took place.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Only taking the COMLEX is not going to adversely affect your education. To imply otherwise is nonsense.

Taking the USMLE was the best decision I ever made and it opened up many doors for me that otherwise would have remained closed. YOUR statement is nonsense.

 

[DOanesthesia]

Taking the USMLE was the best decision I ever made and it opened up many doors for me that otherwise would have remained closed. YOUR statement is nonsense.

Thanks for enlightening me.

I am not opposed to taking the USMLE. I have encouraged others to do it. If I had known I was going to love anesthesia I would have taken it myself. Fortunately, things worked out for me without the USMLE. However, my original statement stands. I don't believe only taking the COMLEX has to mean your education is going to suffer.

 

[amyl]

I don't think I would have matched without the usmle...certainly not where I did if at all