MD & DO co'21 Residency Panic thread

Started by kraskadva
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underthesun said:
The AAMC has every reason to be spooked. Applicants are making more noise about the craziness of the application system/eras than ever before. Any changes to the system could directly affect their bottom line in the long term.
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But why would they release an open letter about "maldistribution of residency interview invitations" if there is no maldistribution?

Either the AAMC is going off anecdotes or the Thalamus data isn't generalizable. I'm wondering which.
 
efle said:
But why would they release an open letter about "maldistribution of residency interview invitations" if there is no maldistribution?

Either the AAMC is going off anecdotes or the Thalamus data isn't generalizable. I'm wondering which.
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I think it’s both. But what I really find funny are the reactions to the AAMC and Thalamus. The AAMC statement came with zero data and everyone lost their minds. Then Thalamus puts out what they have with some actual numbers (it may not be complete data, but no one has that) and it gets immediately shot down and discredited bc it doesn’t fit with the narrative that the world is ending. Can’t we at least be consistent?
 
underthesun said:
I think it’s both. But what I really find funny are the reactions to the AAMC and Thalamus. The AAMC statement came with zero data and everyone lost their minds. Then Thalamus puts out what they have with some actual numbers (it may not be complete data, but no one has that) and it gets immediately shot down and discredited bc it doesn’t fit with the narrative that the world is ending. Can’t we at least be consistent?
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I'm disappointed that you deleted your original response to my post after I responded back. I enjoyed the free, healthy discussion! Oh well.
 
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underthesun said:
I think it’s both. But what I really find funny are the reactions to the AAMC and Thalamus. The AAMC statement came with zero data and everyone lost their minds. Then Thalamus puts out what they have with some actual numbers (it may not be complete data, but no one has that) and it gets immediately shot down and discredited bc it doesn’t fit with the narrative that the world is ending. Can’t we at least be consistent?
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scrublyfe21 said:
To be honest the AAMC really does only have the ERAS scheduler data to go off, and they didn’t cite data, only reports from students about their personal opinions that they deserve more interviews. I can tell you anecdotally that I didn’t fill out a survey telling them how many interviews I have or send it to them manually, and I’m almost certain nobody else here has either.

Honestly all any of us really have to go off are anecdotes; The only “hard” data we have telling us there is a maldistribution are the Reddit spreadsheets. But cite that and see how quick anyone jumps down your throat about trolls. I personally don’t take those seriously.

It’ll be ironic if this is ends up being a case of mass hysteria and everything ends up looking exactly the same as any other year come Match day. The evidence is already there from the ERAS numbers release from October saying that at the very least programs on average didn’t get more applications and we didn’t overapply.

For clarity I do believe that interview invites are certainly maldiatributed but can’t say to what extent. Anecdotally I can say I’ve been personally affected because a resident from my #1 told me their chiefs are pissed, because the program leadership were super hyped about getting the 260 AOA GHHS club that don’t usually apply there and they sucked up a ton of interview spots.
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The AAMC has access to ERAS data, right? They should have at least as much data as Thalamus - in fact more, because they can see how many places each person applied as well. And their USMLE scores. And while I haven't send any survey data to AAMC, I have been asked by my school admin to report my interviews several times, so that might be what they are referring to about "senior medical education leaders" bringing the issue up.

Basically I have a lot of reasons to trust the AAMC over Thalamus. Plus the Thalamus data looks massaged to me; mystery x-axis bins and lack of reporting how they adjusted for 400% more interview volume is sus. They aren't showing us the full picture.
 
efle said:
"Thalamus experienced significant growth over the last year, increasing in size in number of programs by over 400% during this period (Conversely, the size of our applicant pool has remained essentially fixed given the wide distribution of candidate applications and interviews). "

>same number of applicants participating
>4x as many residencies participating
>interview distribution looks identical to last year

How on earth does this look reassuring to them. Feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Am I missing something here, or did they have 4x as many interviews handed out among the same number of candidates this year, and end up with identical looking distributions? How is that possible?
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Oh wait, I think they said they only considered programs that used Thalamus last year when making the graph comparing number of invitations from this year and last year
 
ace_inhibitor111 said:
Oh wait, I think they said they only considered programs that used Thalamus last year when making the graph comparing number of invitations from this year and last year
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Well, right now Thalamus is only like 1/3 of my interviews, so I have to imagine last year they captured like 1/10th of all interviews? I can believe their small subset of early adopters looks the same as last year. I'm skeptical that the AAMC is worried for no reason though. I'm guessing lots of deans are reporting advisees with few interviews and their MyERAS data may look less reassuring than Thalamus'.
 
www.benwhite.com

The AAMC on Interview Hoarding | Ben White

The AAMC recently released an open letter sounding the alarm bells on how the residency interview season is shaping up this year: We are seeing students in the highest tier receiving a larger number of interviews per person than in past years, leaving other students – including those in the...
www.benwhite.com www.benwhite.com

I thought this was a well-reasoned, thoughtful take on the AAMC and Thalamus stuff. Ben White's blog has always been enjoyable to read imo for those who haven't read any of his writing
 
Espressso said:
www.benwhite.com

The AAMC on Interview Hoarding | Ben White

The AAMC recently released an open letter sounding the alarm bells on how the residency interview season is shaping up this year: We are seeing students in the highest tier receiving a larger number of interviews per person than in past years, leaving other students – including those in the...
www.benwhite.com www.benwhite.com

I thought this was a well-reasoned, thoughtful take on the AAMC and Thalamus stuff. Ben White's blog has always been enjoyable to read imo for those who haven't read any of his writing
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Major point of this blog post though, which I agree, is to not cave and apply to more prelim spots now. It seems way too late for that and you'd be applying to dumpster fire programs.
 
scrublyfe21 said:
To be honest the AAMC really does only have the ERAS scheduler data to go off, and they didn’t cite data, only reports from students about their personal opinions that they deserve more interviews. I can tell you anecdotally that I didn’t fill out a survey telling them how many interviews I have or send it to them manually, and I’m almost certain nobody else here has either.

Honestly all any of us really have to go off are anecdotes; The only “hard” data we have telling us there is a maldistribution are the Reddit spreadsheets. But cite that and see how quick anyone jumps down your throat about trolls. I personally don’t take those seriously.

It’ll be ironic if this is ends up being a case of mass hysteria and everything ends up looking exactly the same as any other year come Match day. The evidence is already there from the ERAS numbers release from October saying that at the very least programs on average didn’t get more applications and we didn’t overapply.

For clarity I do believe that interview invites are certainly maldiatributed but can’t say to what extent. Anecdotally I can say I’ve been personally affected because a resident from my #1 told me their chiefs are pissed, because the program leadership were super hyped about getting the 260 AOA GHHS club that don’t usually apply there and they sucked up a ton of interview spots.
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Does GHHS really weight that much? It is at my school...pretty much popularity contest...who spend the most time socializing
 
Espressso said:
Major point of this blog post though, which I agree, is to not cave and apply to more prelim spots now. It seems way too late for that and you'd be applying to dumpster fire programs.
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Carmody pointed this out on his post yesterday too - there are likely to be some good categorical IM programs in the SOAP this year. If you're a solid applicant who was expecting success with categorical IM, entering the SOAP probably makes more sense than jumping into an undesirable prelim in the match.
 
efle said:
Carmody pointed this out on his post yesterday too - there are likely to be some good categorical IM programs in the SOAP this year. If you're a solid applicant who was expecting success with categorical IM, entering the SOAP probably makes more sense than jumping into an undesirable prelim in the match.
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Yeah, I agree with that. Along with not giving ERAS any more of our (loan) money.
 
scrublyfe21 said:
It can make or break decisions in some cases, atleast to interview. I don’t know exactly where it lands but it’s surprisingly influential according to the Program Director Survey.
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Which is unfortunate because neither I nor people at my clinical site I nominated based on the true criteria asked received it.... but the popular kids and people who made voting circles for their own group did....
 
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For the sake of this question, let's say that interview hoarding is legit, and therefore the top 20% are taking up a ton of the interviews that normally the middle 50% would get.

Theoretically speaking, in this scenario, would it make sense that whatever interview we do have in-hand at the moment is probably worth more than in the past? Harder to get an interview this year, therefore more valuable?

For graduating DO seniors, roughly 77% match at their top 4 places. Theoretically, that number should hopefully be slightly higher this year right, for people able to rank more than 4 places? Trying to make myself feel better and not freak out haha
 
Doc-Thor said:
For the sake of this question, let's say that interview hoarding is legit, and therefore the top 20% are taking up a ton of the interviews that normally the middle 50% would get.

Theoretically speaking, in this scenario, would it make sense that whatever interview we do have in-hand at the moment is probably worth more than in the past? Harder to get an interview this year, therefore more valuable?

For graduating DO seniors, roughly 77% match at their top 4 places. Theoretically, that number should hopefully be slightly higher this year right, for people able to rank more than 4 places? Trying to make myself feel better and not freak out haha
Click to expand...
I keep saying this to myself everyday. Each iv means more this season...hopefully
 
Doc-Thor said:
For the sake of this question, let's say that interview hoarding is legit, and therefore the top 20% are taking up a ton of the interviews that normally the middle 50% would get.

Theoretically speaking, in this scenario, would it make sense that whatever interview we do have in-hand at the moment is probably worth more than in the past? Harder to get an interview this year, therefore more valuable?

For graduating DO seniors, roughly 77% match at their top 4 places. Theoretically, that number should hopefully be slightly higher this year right, for people able to rank more than 4 places? Trying to make myself feel better and not freak out haha
Click to expand...

Theoretically yes. And hopefully in practice as well.
 
Rant incoming, ppl need to stop with the notion that there is a "best program in the country" for whatever specialty they're applying. Of course there are programs that are better than others whether that means clinically, more opportunities for research, stronger didactics, etc. But when it comes to residency, there is only a best program for YOU and your life/family/social/geographic region/whatever situation that you're currently in.

I hate seeing my colleagues asking random internet strangers for "the best" program when it doesn't exist since it varies from person to person (or even worse using Doximity as the end all be all). Everyone has a different best and they need to really ask themselves what parts of a program are most important to them, and then rank accordingly.
 
somedudehere said:
Rant incoming, ppl need to stop with the notion that there is a "best program in the country" for whatever specialty they're applying. Of course there are programs that are better than others whether that means clinically, more opportunities for research, stronger didactics, etc. But when it comes to residency, there is only a best program for YOU and your life/family/social/geographic region/whatever situation that you're currently in.

I hate seeing my colleagues asking random internet strangers for "the best" program when it doesn't exist since it varies from person to person (or even worse using Doximity as the end all be all). Everyone has a different best and they need to really ask themselves what parts of a program are most important to them, and then rank accordingly.
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Agree. Also a lot of applicants assume that residents end up at programs because that's the "best" they could do. Lot of brilliant people at programs that may not be considered "prestigious"
 
underthesun said:
Agree. Also a lot of applicants assume that residents end up at programs because that's the "best" they could do. Lot of brilliant people at programs that may not be considered "prestigious"
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I put a program in my top 7 that is considered "lower/bottom-tier" If I match there, no one will even THINK that I got some of the interviews I did but at the end of the day, I couldn't imagine myself at those programs! I went to the interview day and almost had a panic attack after some of them cause those programs were absolutely a NON-FIT. I chose a prestigious school over my in-state school out of sheer stupidity and ego. I regret it. Was miserable here.
 
Doc-Thor said:
For the sake of this question, let's say that interview hoarding is legit, and therefore the top 20% are taking up a ton of the interviews that normally the middle 50% would get.

Theoretically speaking, in this scenario, would it make sense that whatever interview we do have in-hand at the moment is probably worth more than in the past? Harder to get an interview this year, therefore more valuable?

For graduating DO seniors, roughly 77% match at their top 4 places. Theoretically, that number should hopefully be slightly higher this year right, for people able to rank more than 4 places? Trying to make myself feel better and not freak out haha
Click to expand...
In theory - yes.
But I also heard that some programs interviewed more people than they normally do. So that would destroy our beautiful theory.
 
iamarosepetal said:
I put a program in my top 7 that is considered "lower/bottom-tier" If I match there, no one will even THINK that I got some of the interviews I did but at the end of the day, I couldn't imagine myself at those programs! I went to the interview day and almost had a panic attack after some of them cause those programs were absolutely a NON-FIT. I chose a prestigious school over my in-state school out of sheer stupidity and ego. I regret it. Was miserable here.
Click to expand...
What was it about the top ranking programs that made them a bad fit?
 
iamarosepetal said:
I put a program in my top 7 that is considered "lower/bottom-tier" If I match there, no one will even THINK that I got some of the interviews I did but at the end of the day, I couldn't imagine myself at those programs! I went to the interview day and almost had a panic attack after some of them cause those programs were absolutely a NON-FIT. I chose a prestigious school over my in-state school out of sheer stupidity and ego. I regret it. Was miserable here.
Click to expand...
Yeah I’ve interviewed at several top places and they tend to feel stuffy. a lot of them tend to be geared towards those looking for academic-heavy careers. Overall have gotten the sense that the environment is very competitive and that would just be miserable. It doesn’t fit my career goals so why would I try to go there? All I want is excellent training...why is that so hard to find lol
 
iamarosepetal said:
I put a program in my top 7 that is considered "lower/bottom-tier" If I match there, no one will even THINK that I got some of the interviews I did but at the end of the day, I couldn't imagine myself at those programs! I went to the interview day and almost had a panic attack after some of them cause those programs were absolutely a NON-FIT. I chose a prestigious school over my in-state school out of sheer stupidity and ego. I regret it. Was miserable here.
Click to expand...
Same. I will have a community program in my top 3 ahead of 8 higher regarded academic programs. I just can’t shake the fact that I know my family and I would be so happy there. And I am confident in myself to get into the fellowship I want. Fit is so much bigger at this stage than people realize.
efle said:
What was it about the top ranking programs that made them a bad fit?
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I can’t speak for @iamarosepetal , but for me the academic places are much more research driven, typically more hierarchal, and, at least at some of the places I have interviewed, have varying levels of technical skill. For me and my career goals, and for my family, some of the more community places are just a much better fit.

Better rank doesn’t really mean better training the majority of the time.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Same. I will have a community program in my top 3 ahead of 8 higher regarded academic programs. I just can’t shake the fact that I know my family and I would be so happy there. And I am confident in myself to get into the fellowship I want. Fit is so much bigger at this stage than people realize.

I can’t speak for @iamarosepetal , but for me the academic places are much more research driven, typically more hierarchal, and, at least at some of the places I have interviewed, have varying levels of technical skill. For me and my career goals, and for my family, some of the more community places are just a much better fit.

Better rank doesn’t really mean better training the majority of the time.
Click to expand...
Interesting. Maybe the value of interview day impression varies a lot by field. In DR so far everyone has been universally chill and happy so I can't say I've had any strong gut feelings at all, good or bad.
 
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AnatomyGrey12 said:
Same. I will have a community program in my top 3 ahead of 8 higher regarded academic programs. I just can’t shake the fact that I know my family and I would be so happy there. And I am confident in myself to get into the fellowship I want. Fit is so much bigger at this stage than people realize.

I can’t speak for @iamarosepetal , but for me the academic places are much more research driven, typically more hierarchal, and, at least at some of the places I have interviewed, have varying levels of technical skill. For me and my career goals, and for my family, some of the more community places are just a much better fit.

Better rank doesn’t really mean better training the majority of the time.
Click to expand...
This is why I could never go into IM. I’d hate being at a big academic center in IM but fellowship selection seems to be so prestige driven you kind of have to just rank by doximity numbers.
 
Ho0v-man said:
This is why I could never go into IM. I’d hate being at a big academic center in IM but fellowship selection seems to be so prestige driven you kind of have to just rank by doximity numbers.
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I would also hate being at a big academic center .... but I don’t want to do fellowship so I get to consider great fit, training, and QOL at community hospitals without fellowship.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Same. I will have a community program in my top 3 ahead of 8 higher regarded academic programs. I just can’t shake the fact that I know my family and I would be so happy there. And I am confident in myself to get into the fellowship I want. Fit is so much bigger at this stage than people realize.

I can’t speak for @iamarosepetal , but for me the academic places are much more research driven, typically more hierarchal, and, at least at some of the places I have interviewed, have varying levels of technical skill. For me and my career goals, and for my family, some of the more community places are just a much better fit.

Better rank doesn’t really mean better training the majority of the time.
Click to expand...
I interviewed at a few community programs where people match into insane fellowships. There are hidden gems out there, but aside from those gems, people do match into fellowships from community programs...including places like MGH if that's your thing. Ultimately, your ABSITE and research, as well as good letters, are what get you through the door.

I didn't like the T20s I had cause a few of them had 2 years required research. Just cannot get behind it and don't know why it's required at all... I have other things I'd like to do like graduate in 5 years and not be pressured to waste my life in a lab. Also for some of them the residents didn't look all too happy. I also noticed that one of the programs I interviewed had some level of attrition. Also some of the resident meet&greets just felt odd.

My family and husband also live in a different geographic region than some of these programs. I'm ranking programs higher that are in that geographic region regardless of rank. I made a giant boo-boo when I picked my med school. I had a choice but still chose to go to a place where I knew NOBODY. I regretted it every day and still do.
 
ciestar said:
This may have relevance or not...
but, yes, matching your top choices is nice. However, even if you fall to your 8th choice, it doesnt mean you’ll hate life. Keep that in mind that your ROL isnt the end all be all.
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This is definitely wrong. Met few residents who obviously matched very low on their lists...I will rank all the programs I interviewed at, but few of them I already could tell I would be hating my life...if I end up there...but then I will hate my life more if I don’t match.
 
Yeah there is a top tier program that is going to be on the bottom of my list due to personal reasons, and I'll have a bunch of "low/mid" tiers above it. If I was only prestige hunting that wouldn't be the case but location and proximity to people I know is huge.

The issue for me is currently drawing the line on what "close" is. 2 hour drive? 4 hour drive? Hard to say.
 
Banco said:
Yeah there is a top tier program that is going to be on the bottom of my list due to personal reasons, and I'll have a bunch of "low/mid" tiers above it. If I was only prestige hunting that wouldn't be the case but location and proximity to people I know is huge.

The issue for me is currently drawing the line on what "close" is. 2 hour drive? 4 hour drive? Hard to say.
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i'm counting 4 hour drive as close personally or 1.5 hour flight
 
frenchyn said:
This is definitely wrong. Met few residents who obviously matched very low on their lists...I will rank all the programs I interviewed at, but few of them I already could tell I would be hating my life...if I end up there...but then I will hate my life more if I don’t match.
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This is not definitely wrong.

I ranked 16 programs and fell far. I like my program. If you’d rather not match than be at a place, DO NOT RANK IT. It’s simple. But let’s not tell me I am wrong. I’m living this right now.
 
ciestar said:
This is not definitely wrong.

I ranked 16 programs and fell far. I like my program. If you’d rather not match than be at a place, DO NOT RANK IT. It’s simple. But let’s not tell me I am wrong. I’m living this right now.
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If I remember it correctly, you are not a surgical subspecialty...which is very limited in term of programs...now if I apply to something less competitive...deciding between T20...lmao I would then have an option to not rank a program...but if you apply to surg subspecialty and half of your programs are lower tier ones...good luck with now ranking. Btw you are an intern now...what applies to you may not apply to other specialties especially the competitive ones. Don’t get too offended if what you say does not apply to it all lmao
 
ciestar said:
This may have relevance or not...
but, yes, matching your top choices is nice. However, even if you fall to your 8th choice, it doesnt mean you’ll hate life. Keep that in mind that your ROL isnt the end all be all.
Click to expand...

frenchyn said:
This is definitely wrong. Met few residents who obviously matched very low on their lists...I will rank all the programs I interviewed at, but few of them I already could tell I would be hating my life...if I end up there...but then I will hate my life more if I don’t match.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of threads here on SDN where immediately after the match, someone states that they fell to their last rank and that their life is over. Then, 6-9 months later, they come back and report how happy they are, and that "if they knew then what they know now, they would have ranked this program up near the top". So sure, some people end up unhappy -- some who match at the top and bottom of their lists. But many end up just fine. Fear mongering like this doesn't help anyone.
 
NotAProgDirector said:
There are plenty of threads here on SDN where immediately after the match, someone states that they fell to their last rank and that their life is over. Then, 6-9 months later, they come back and report how happy they are, and that "if they knew then what they know now, they would have ranked this program up near the top". So sure, some people end up unhappy -- some who match at the top and bottom of their lists. But many end up just fine. Fear mongering like this doesn't help anyone.
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I ended up freaking out. I was one of those people. I thought my life was over.
 
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NotAProgDirector said:
There are plenty of threads here on SDN where immediately after the match, someone states that they fell to their last rank and that their life is over. Then, 6-9 months later, they come back and report how happy they are, and that "if they knew then what they know now, they would have ranked this program up near the top". So sure, some people end up unhappy -- some who match at the top and bottom of their lists. But many end up just fine. Fear mongering like this doesn't help anyone.
Click to expand...
I am sure I would be one of those unhappy ones if I match low on my list. The stake is higher in surgical subspecialty I feel like especially the training duration is longer instead of just 3 years...my home program is not even low tier one...and the residents hate their lives almost every day... I just want to make my point...fear mongering or not depends on who reads it and their choice lol...I feel like those who thought they wouldn't be happy then came back and said they are happy mostly because they thought the programs are bad from their interview experience....and did not really know the programs. For surgical subspecialties, it is a small field, we get more inside info and how miserable the residents are....so I know for sure I won't be happy there.
 
efle said:
What was it about the top ranking programs that made them a bad fit?
Click to expand...
I'm assuming OP is applying to general surgery and it's pretty much known that the higher the prestige.. the more likely the program is to be malignant/hierarchical. Of course not all encompassing, but pretty generalized in this specialty. Given the training is 5-7 years, this is a huge factor to take into consideration.
 
in this strange interview cycle, within what range do you think most applicants will match on their rank list? (is it majority matching top 3 in a normal year?)
 
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