Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Ikr lol. I will say I was reinvigorated by this meme though. Have a happy thanksgiving and stay blessed fam, we’ll make it through this!
MD & DO co'21 Residency Panic thread
Started by kraskadva
Someone made these charts showing II offer #s in ortho comparing last year to this year. Disclaimer on this would be it’s still very early so there’s still chance for trickle due to high interview overlap in our shorter season. Seems like a lot of programs are interviewing the same studs, could make for a larger # of spots in the soap if some programs over reach.
Same in ent form
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
And people wonder why the public doesn’t trust physicians as much anymore. It’s cause so many of them are ****ty people.
I already felt spreadsheets were unreliable because people lie but wow. The gunning basically destroys any remaining usefulness.
I think there are many reasons for the distrust of physicians in the USA
Yeah but a lot of this starts at the med student level where people gun and throw each other under the bus. That's a serious problem.
Ohh it starts well before that, well before
There are. But gunners don’t stop being ****ty when they match.
Sure, it’s a character issue that Predates medical school
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Of course. I didn’t say it isn’t. But the path to and through med school somewhat selects for those people.
yeah man the ortho sheet is ridiculous, idk wtf is wrong with people. I get that anxiety is high, but I will never understand this type of behavior. Scares me that some of these people may be my co-interns at an ortho residency next year
Working a 24 for thanksgiving at an audition and the PD gave me a solid interview after telling me I wasn’t being considered. So that’s a solid #7 for me. Happy thanksgiving everyone!
I personally think that people should be evaluated based on the merit of their application, not whether they are an MD/DO. That being said, I sort of understand why programs use it as a “quick and dirty” filter. I think it’s probably fair to suggest that the average student at a DO school is less academically robust and typically has lower quality rotations and research opportunities. I know there are people that go to DO schools because they want that flavor of medicine, but it’s obvious that DO schools are backup choices for most students. In an ideal world, programs would evaluate applicants based on their entire application and look at the great equalizers (Step 1 & 2, although controversial as well) but there probably isn’t enough time.
My applicant information has been altered once or twice because I'm "trolling" and/or must be lying.
I don't think its gunning. Its hard to tell who is being truthful and who isn't. Its an open document and everyone is trying to help.
Theres a weird distribution of IIs this year especially for IM. Theres alot of low-stat applicants > 10 II. Theres a lot of high stat applicants (mostly IMGs) with 1-2 IIs.
Maybe the lack of Step 2 CS this year is making programs wary of international grads? I know it always had like a 95% pass rate for US Seniors but I think it did have more like a 70% pass rate for international testers
D
deleted697308
Yeah I freaked out the first week because a dream program of mine sent out invites supposedly when actually someone just changed the reddit cell to lie...
What? People go to DO schools and acquire hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and give up the better part of a decade of their lives, if not more in some circumstances, because they "want a flavor of medicine"? The hell does that mean? The arrogance and ignorance in your post is unnerving.
D
deleted697308
Seriously...
Also no offense but there were people I know with better GPAs and MCATs, ended up with infinitely higher steps, and who are overall better people than me who went the DO route.
You realize that the difference in mean step 1 scores is not statistically significant between MDs and DOs right?
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
D
deleted1066449
Around 55% DO take Steps 1. 100% of MD require to take it. I would argue that if 100% DO require to take Step 1, there would be a statiscal difference.
I don't even understand the point of that.
Atleast in mind if I was gunning. I would alter the spreadsheet to make people think the program hasn't send IIs yet. Not the other way around haha.
Some people choose to go to DO schools over MD schools. I can’t believe I have to spell this out, but DO schools teach slightly differently, and some people like THAT flavor of medicine. As in, they want to learn the osteopathic skills. Your lack of reading comprehension skills is unnerving.
Last edited:
Not all DOs take it so that point is invalid. And there certainly is a difference in admission stats (MCAT).
Our curriculum is not designed to take step 1 either. At least for my school it became apparently in year 2. There were some days it really felt like I was studying for two different tests.
Level 2/Step 2 the difference become pretty insignificant in testing material.
But lets not pretend that if 100% of DO students took step 1 the difference would be non-statistical.
Please let's not do this.... again
What % of DO students takes Step 2? I thought near 100 but not sure
It makes sense but at least for IM (a historically non-competitive specialty), IMG/FMGs are feeling it.
Good luck to them and hopefully some of these programs realize Charles from Harvard is not realistically looking to join your community program.
the point still stands that you could just use Step 1 to filter not DO degree.
Except we don’t know that and there’s no evidence to show that. The only evidence we have is that of the DO students who take step 1, their mean scores are not different than MD students.
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Lol wut? You’re saying that it’s invalid because not all DOs take step, but then you’re basing your argument on things like the MCAT?
Good question. TBH have no clue so decided to look it up.
I only found 1 JAOA article that gives hard numbers.
"Eight hundred fifty-two respondents (87%) reported being in the top 60% of their medical school class. Students in higher quintiles (ie, top 40%) were more likely than those in lower quintiles to take the USMLE (P<.001) (Table 1). Of the respondents, 460 (46.9%) reported taking the USMLE Step 1, while 264 (26.9%) reported taking the USMLE Step 2 CK"
26% of students that are top 60th percentile.
TBH i thought that number would be higher too! I'm googling RN
I’m not pretending. But we can’t just assume. We don’t have the data and we can’t extrapolate. The DO students who take step study to take it. You could just as easily extrapolate that if 100% of DO students had to take it, they would all prepare and it would still be non-statistical.
my point was that DO candidates on average have lower stats on admission, worse rotations, and less research opportunities. There is a reason for the bias against DOs, whether it’s right or wrong. Again, I think it makes most sense to evaluate the individual, not the degree.
That article is from 8 years ago, well before the merger. I’m curious what the data is now.
And all of that is irrelevant to step. But I do agree with you that it seems like on average their rotation quality is worse. I don’t know about the research stuff, but it would seem to follow.
Jesus Christ my original point was that there is a reason (right or wrong) for DO bias, not about step scores
I blame COCA for this. MDs and DOs are the same. There are many DOs who are department heads and chairs at MD schools (even top tiers). Zero reason for the anti DO bias other than COCA's self destructive measures for allowing DO expansion to continue and having more lenient regulations.
I agree to everything you just posted. There is no hard data so we can't extrapolate.
If schools required 100% of students take step 1, then the scores would be better (over time).
But as of right now, I don't feel like I'm reaching when I can safely assume there is a statistical difference in step 1 b/w US-DOs and US-MD. The curriculum would probably be better prepared for step 1 but it still would not be on the same level as US-MDs. The OMM time sink is a factor as well.
Every school is different but we can agree most people didn't take step 1 because their practice scores were non-passing. Its not like they weren't studying to take step 1.
I completely agree! They should be viewed as the same. But for that to happen on a practical level in the eyes of program directors, the rotations and other things need to be more standardized. That was the whole point of my original post, until people with no reading skills got ahold of it and bastardized it.
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Agreed i'm trying to find something right now. I feel like that number has to be in at least the 60-70% range.
No need to get cranky.
Right. So if 2/3 to 3/4 of DOs are taking step now, and the difference is non-statistical, then the data show that the mean scores are the same for the vast majority of DOs.
But I’m curious what the actual percentage is.
But you also stated DO students are less academically prepared and made a point about Step and MCAT scores, which I disagree and think it's irrelevant (especially with Step 1 now going P/F). I do agree though that DO schools really need to heavily improve their rotations and research because otherwise DO students would end up less clinically prepared which would be bad.
I said that ON AVERAGE DOs are less academically robust. By that I meant admission stats. If you don't believe me, just look up the MCAT scores. And if all DOs took Step 1 I think you would see a statistical difference in scoring, although I certainly cannot prove that. My original post had nothing to do with Step scores at all if you read it.
Actually is step 1 required to take step 2ck? I don’t think it used to be. I think we might see a precipitous drop in DO step 1 takers now that it’s going to be pass fail.
Your post talked about academic robustness. Since mcat is completely irrelevant to matching, I think most people assumed you meant step.
It’s not
Didn’t think so. Wouldn’t be surprised if a lot fewer DOs take step 1 after jan 2022.
I agree that the MCAT is irrelevant to matching, but my entire point is about how DOs are perceived by program directors. When the entrance requirements are lower (and DO schools are not usually an applicant's first choice) and the rotations and research opportunities are worse on average I think it makes them question who they are getting and its easy to just filter them out. It would obviously be best to evaluate the individual.
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
