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Wat? Where did you read that there are 26 strains?
MD & DO co'21 Residency Panic thread
Started by kraskadva
Wat? Where did you read that there are 26 strains?
I'm glad there are people who don't feel very stressed and feel as though they had it better than my class.
For me, I completely sympathize with c/o 2021 because while my class had to deal with the insanity that is 2020/Covid for a few months of 4th year, tihs year's class had to deal with it crossing over into yet another academic year. Add on to that not being able to rotate at other institutions to compare your home program, not being able to physically visit programs to get a good feel for where you're going to spend the next 3-7 years of your life, and missing out on rotations thus feeling even less prepared for intern year than previous years (as M3/M4 clinical years get diluted further and further as more time goes on).
There's multiple perspectives to this class' situation. I don't think it's wrong to think that you have it pretty good compared to my class or previous classes, but I also don't think it's wrong to have sympathy for you all as you're heading into one of the biggest decisions of your professional life.
Sure we save money, ERaS push back etc....but this is still really early to say it is not stressful lol...wait until March and we will see....what we see so far are already uneven interview distribution among applicants...without subI and meeting an applicant in person, the program may rely more heavy on paper => top applicants again have more benefits and some people may not match at a program that actually fit them...? More people go unmatch or program go unmatch hence another round of soap...program will match their home students so students who don’t want to match at their home programs will have a lower chance at matching somewhere else...students at lower med schools will less likely match at top programs...etc...
These may not apply to you all but these are the speculations I have heard from a surgical subspecialty stand point.
Not trying to compare class of 2021 to other class or anyone...but there are a lot more uncertainties this class have to deal with...when there is uncertainty there is definitely more stress.
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+1. I have DO friends applying to gas and our group chat is pretty much all about lack of invites. It's not as stressful IF you're applying to something not as competitive or if your scores are above average for your speciality. If you're reaching in any way, whether it's bias or scores, it's a **** year. Saving money from online interviews means nothing if you'll be getting less invites than you would in a normal year.
no thanks.
Its hard enough scheduling out an entire day to attend interviews. Idk how any program thinks i could schedule out two entire days.
I think this year is worse. I really looked forward to fourth year! But this is not it. And then residents keep reminding me to enjoy fourth year... enjoy what, my social isolation trapped in my tiny apartment while the world burns down around me? AUGH. I sound unstable and really I'm doing ok, but this experience is miserable. I've had so many people (not 2021 applicants) tell me virtual interviews are great and convenient for applicants and then recommend choosing programs based on the vibe and how residents interact with each other (while alone? on zoom?) and I just cannot. Yes, it's cheaper, and there are some programs where afterwards, I'm glad I didn't waste money going there, but there's also a cost to this.
I would so rather be traveling. I'm trying to decide where to spend years of my life based on a zoom call. Some of my favorite programs are far away in places I've never been. Will I actually hate the location? No way to find out! Is the food ok? No idea. Do the residents hate each other and look totally worn out? I've seen at most 4 of them, each zooming from a separate location. (And the other direction too - did I just get a resident who was having an off day, and everyone else is doing fine? Idk, N = way too small.)
I will also say, I'm so much happier being in the hospital (with PPE, to be clear). Being under lockdown is not a great vacation. It takes a huge mental toll to spend all your time at home with no structure, no way to study with friends, no option to work from another location, just you alone in your apartment.
Plus interviewing from home is not always fun - I feel pretty ok, but it's rough for friends with kids (not like they can go anywhere!), bad internet connections, etc. And virtual interviewing has almost certainly had bad effects on interview distribution.
Then there are the other things. The people who have died, and having to mourn them totally alone. The fear I have for vulnerable friends and family. The time with my community and my loved ones that I'm losing, right before I move away. The loss of what was supposed to be a fun break in the grind replaced by weird pandemic burnout. Not into it.
I would so rather be traveling. I'm trying to decide where to spend years of my life based on a zoom call. Some of my favorite programs are far away in places I've never been. Will I actually hate the location? No way to find out! Is the food ok? No idea. Do the residents hate each other and look totally worn out? I've seen at most 4 of them, each zooming from a separate location. (And the other direction too - did I just get a resident who was having an off day, and everyone else is doing fine? Idk, N = way too small.)
I will also say, I'm so much happier being in the hospital (with PPE, to be clear). Being under lockdown is not a great vacation. It takes a huge mental toll to spend all your time at home with no structure, no way to study with friends, no option to work from another location, just you alone in your apartment.
Plus interviewing from home is not always fun - I feel pretty ok, but it's rough for friends with kids (not like they can go anywhere!), bad internet connections, etc. And virtual interviewing has almost certainly had bad effects on interview distribution.
Then there are the other things. The people who have died, and having to mourn them totally alone. The fear I have for vulnerable friends and family. The time with my community and my loved ones that I'm losing, right before I move away. The loss of what was supposed to be a fun break in the grind replaced by weird pandemic burnout. Not into it.
There is nothing we can do right now unfortunately besides hoping for the best in March. Hope we all match in march then the rest of the fourth year will be a piece of cake.
The only thing I am concerned about right now is zoom burnout and interview fatigue. Who else feels like they have been told the same thing over and over again...and they stop caring lol? I think I am at this point...and this is bad...because it will come across as not interested in the program.
I think in general lots of measures have been taken and they have been positive, mostly protecting medical students. In terms of actual clinical duties this year has been a joke (and I'm okay with that).
I think the unprecedented nature of the match this year is what is stressing people - hoarding + interview invites seeming to be more of a crapshoot than usual + lack of transparency/preparation from programs is a really bad combination and leads to a vicious cycle of people feeling less confident, going on more interviews (especially when those who are getting 20+ have little reason to even be afraid), and people with not so great applications missing out on the trickle invites. And the worst part is there is no actual tangible evidence that the match itself will be different this year, but because of a vague "it's a weird year" sentiment the system is collapsing in certain specialties (see the recent letter by ACS with regards to the same applicants possibly interviewing at many places). This year my school has been collecting data, and pretty much across the board there is a lower number of average invites when compared to last year (even when adjusting for timing of MSPE release). Also, Zoom interviews somehow end up causing fatigue sooner (I can't really explain this), and you really can't get a feel or see the place.
So I think overall the stress should be lower like you said, and it really is when it comes to clinical duties and medical school responsibilities, but it's the weirdness of it all that is creating uneasiness. Plus the loss of loved ones/having sick family doesn't help.
This year sucks. Yeah there’s some cool stuff about saving money I guess. But I’m interested in some pretty uncompetitive programs in areas I don’t have strong ties to. As a result of this pandemic virtual clusterf@(k, I’m absolutely getting filtered out of programs I’m genuinely interested in. In a normal year I would have at least gotten some of those through trickle invites as people decided they weren’t interested.
Also, the majority of DOs are sitting on about half as many invites as normal. Typically our best matches are from fantastic programs in undesirable locations. This year no ones canceling those invites.
silver lining is med school bs had been minimal. That’ll make me feel real good if I end up in the soap
Also, the majority of DOs are sitting on about half as many invites as normal. Typically our best matches are from fantastic programs in undesirable locations. This year no ones canceling those invites.
silver lining is med school bs had been minimal. That’ll make me feel real good if I end up in the soap
1. We had our written exams at Prometric cancelled and rescheduled 1526 times.
2. We had our CS/PE cancelled, rescheduled, cancelled, postponed 794936 times.
3. We had to study at home for unknown test dates without options for libraries, Starbucks, etc with everyone else home making noise to in and around your home.
4. I did have non-Covid ICU experience with everyone coding.
5. I did have student experiences on a Covid unit this year.
6. We have essential workers in our home (my husband is a respiratory therapist)
7. We had scheduled rotations cancelled
8. We had auditions cancelled
9. We had limited options for auditions
10. We lost in person M3 and M4 time
11. We can’t see the programs and cities were supposed to live at for 3-7 years
12. Our schools have poorly communicated how to complete graduation requirements
13. Hospitals didn’t want to/couldn’t take students
14. I didn’t finish some M3 specialties but a year later I had to take the shelf exams because my school decided they were checked off with the online work and I had to take them STAT without any exposure to the field for a year.
15. I can’t visit my family (driveable distance) or have any holidays with them because though you think I’m insulated from the patient work (???) they think my exposure risk is too high to see me. I’ll be in the ED through Christmas and New Years.
16. No home hospital for my school so though I’m being exposed to COVID on rotations, no one is covering me with a vaccine.
TLDR: mass chaos affecting our rotations, board exams, and residency applications in the setting of a global pandemic and national crisis
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Fourth year has always been stressful. What it’s supposed to be some glorious beacon just because sometimes your resident will be like “go home two hours early, you’re a fourth year!”? Nah. You spend most of the year stressing about apps, interviews, and match, and then if you have any money left over or are independently wealthy, you got to travel if you also were able to get a schedule that allowed for that. Which I don’t think is the majority contrary to what social media shows. We can play the grass is always greener game but that really only serves to make everyone feel bad. Some years have their unique stressors for specific specialties, some years have unique stressors for everyone. All years are suffering from the stressors of score creep and over-applying. This year was unprecedented in terms of what students had to deal with both in the hospital and in the application cycle. As with any change, there were pros and cons but I don’t really think it’s fair to tell people how they should be balancing these and where their stress level should be.
I'm starting to realize when people keep saying MS4 is chill, they're really just referring to the post-match, pre-intern period which is like 3-4 months.
MS4 is otherwise stressful af and this year especially sucks because of Zoom, lack of interview caps, away chaos, Step chaos and other problems
MS4 is otherwise stressful af and this year especially sucks because of Zoom, lack of interview caps, away chaos, Step chaos and other problems
Well said. The other resident who recently posted in this thread has provided level-headed insight and helpful information to the forum for years so I am surprised by their tone-deaf boomer speak initial post.
Reminder that this is a "panic" thread lol. We can make a separate thread where everyone tells everyone else that their problems and anxiety aren't real. I'll be glad to dig up old posts and talk **** about these people's vulnerabilities there if they want to play that pointless game. I'll win.
So I'll restart the panic: Aaaaaaaaaaaaah
Its stressfull but I feel like i've got alot more time on my hands. At least compared to third year, I had to constantly study for something.
Now when I get out. I am literally doing whatever I want.
My current favorite program is a smaller program so I just got on residency explorer and did the most neurotic thing I have ever done in my life. I made it into December in 4th year of medical school before I did something so silly. I looked at the number of applications to the program and the percentage of applicants interviewed. Then I divided that number by number of 1st year resident spots at the program to give myself some perspective. Don't do that lol.
In Morgan Freeman voice:
“But everyone who read that post did do just that. And they instantly regretted it.”
The way I look at it is that our class was taken out of rotations during March/april of third year. The entire summer was in limbo so yes, more UW, but also more test cancellations. My step exam was cancelled I think maybe 6 times? Most of our class nationally haven't taken level 2 PE which is a whole separate topic. The class above us also were taken out of rotations around the same time. That was during their post-match time. No travel for them, which sucks. Virtual graduation, also sucks. But they didn't really have to deal with the exam cancellations one, and two, they didn't have to scramble for auditions rotations that may or may not have came through for them. I know many classmates weren't able to secure even one audition. Then also the virtual interview season = more "hoarding" which I think will result in more of a blood bath in the SOAP, mostly with competitive specialities.
All in all, you can say that saving the travel money is a plus, it is I agree with you. But it's also a negative because you don't see these programs. Only time will tell if a bunch of applicants find out they match at programs they aren't actually a great fit for. I do agree that md students have been fairly insulated from the real impact of covid, for sure. But I don't think it's quite fair to say that's been some cush year for our class.
like @Ho0v-man referenced did exactly that. But i guess it makes sense why the safe number for most programs is b/w 10-15 for most specialties. .
Googled small + medium sized IM program. Between 8-14 PGY1s. Average number for most of the Matched/Interviewed was around 7- 9%.
Keep the personal attacks out of it. He asked an honest question in a respectful way and sympathized with posters saying it was stressful.
Also, a couple people applying agreed with him, so it’s obviously not a universal feeling.
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So true. When the Covid struck and my friends and I thought this was going to affect just our class, there was a widespread sense of "woe is me." Then as time went on and we saw what was happening to the then M3s, there was a collective sense of "it sucks we didn't get Match celebrations and a real graduation, but boy are we glad we're not the class of 2021."
I agree with a lot of what others have said regarding cancelled exams, cancelled rotations, no aways (especially important for students without home programs in their desired specialty, which automatically means that not everyone is in the same boat), etc. I also think one of the biggest things is the social isolation. If you follow the rules regarding minimizing travel and avoiding hanging out with individuals who are not in your household, you wind up spending a large chunk of time alone in your apartment with no goals or structure. During medical school, I think that most students look forward to fourth year as this fun year where we get to visit other programs, see friends and family, etc. We also all realize that next year we will be interns with difficult schedules and likely miss holidays with friends and family simply due to work schedules.
I consider myself to be a pretty social person and was looking forward to traveling to see friends back home, meeting other applicants on the interview trail, etc. Now, after years of hard work, I'm picking my residency based off of a Zoom call. I'm certainly very thankful to have been insulated from some of the stressors that others have faced during this time, but that doesn't mean that the class of 2021 have not faced their own unique stressors. Personally, I would prefer to be on a rotation rather than sitting at home, especially when home is a very small apartment.
While I agree that saving money is good, it's honestly a drop in the bucket compared to the loans I already owe. I would much rather spend that money on travel. So much of my loan money (including the money I owe for fourth year) was a fixed cost - tuition.
I interviewed at a top program the other day and was told most applicants said so far they would interview +5 the number needed to maximize chance to match. These are from the top applicants (minus myself...)...March will be a very interesting month...🤦♀️😢
There are no personal attacks in that post. I didn't call anyone any names or say they were stupid. In fact, I remarked that this poster makes great contributions to the forum consistently so the tone of the post is surprising.
I did say that the initial post is tone deaf and a bad take. I did say that people, him and people who agree with him, should start a "you think you have it bad but you don't" thread if they want to continue that line of conversation so I can come in there and do that same thing to them without cluttering up this thread. I'm sure they would love it. Glass houses and whatnot. It doesn't fit the spirit of the thread. The dismissive posts are stupid and don't do anything but hurt people's feelings during a stressful time. This is from someone who had legitimately only 1 hurdle for all of med school: dealing with the NBOME. Thanks for permission to remind everyone who worries about matching peds/fm/IM/neuro in this thread that they are stupid for worrying and should have just tried on step 1 more etc. That's the same crap attitude. They don't have it any worse than last year after all so they need to quit whining on the thread made for resolving some anxiety.
If I wanted to read a bunch of dismissive posts I would just tag some attendings lol.
Anyone else keep rethinking their top choices over and over— I keep thinking how amazing it would be to live in X city only to later remind myself how much moving to a new environment sucks but you get through it. It’s definitely a stressful time as others above have noted, for a variety of reasons, and it seems all you can you do is smile for the camera and hope you transport to March and plan for the rest of your life wherever that may be..
I agree, that poster is usually helpful so I was very surprised to see such a hurtful, dismissive post.
Hahaha I did not make it into 4th year without doing that so it’s much too late for me.
Is this fear or is there a specific problem with moving to this city? If it's a specific issue then perhaps you could read the city's subreddit? Maybe try to write down anxieties versus concrete hurdles to moving there. Putting it on paper could put you at ease that you are just nervous about it, reasonably. Or it could unconver some logistical issues that you need to go online and find possible solutions to. Moving to a city, especially with family, is no small matter. I think you might feel better to determine the root cause if you don't already know. Only then can you decide if you want to rank it differently.
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More time for UW wasnt real a bonus of this all IMO, more time for UW for everyone = harsher curve = more weight on the WTF questions you dont find in UW and perhaps being on the wards may have helped with?
Then theres the people who ended up having a core moved online that was in their specialty of interest and ended up applying to a specialty theyve never rotated in. Probably made the scramble for LORs much worse this year unless you had several long term connections made previous to third year.
The biggest stressor this year is the uncertainty, planning auditions / boards a year out and dealing with constant cancelations (in a specialty where auditions mean pretty much everything) and having to make last minute rotation schedules. My back end of fourth year isnt even scheduled yet because hospitals that arent my base wont take me due to covid and my base hospital coordinator cant be bothered to answer an email/confirm a rotation for me in a pre-covid era and its only gotten magnitudes worse in the covid era. Not to mention i havent been online since 3 month in the spring and my school has an official limit on online electives (which i cant even schedule because my email response rate is like 10% since covid started for some reason).
So yeah still getting potential covid exposures daily, had my stress coping mechanism (the gym) taken from me for half the year, got family in the icu on a vent, still cant see/study with my friends (my ability to focus on studying is trashh anywhere not a lib/coffee shop) , has def not been a vacation as much as it may seem like it
Not to mention the effect on interviews, sure saving money is nice but there’s rampant interview hoarding. The ortho spreadsheet shows a bimodal distribution with peaks at 4 interviews and like 20 interviews. Programs have straight up admitted it in their rejection emails saying theyre not seeing as many cancelations/turn downs of interview offers as they see in a normal year. Not to mention anyone trying to break out of their region and not having been able to audition anywhere but at home is pretty much screwed.
From a work load standpoint, absolutely this year has been chill. But from a pure anxiety/stress stand point, I’d much rather of had a normal year
Then theres the people who ended up having a core moved online that was in their specialty of interest and ended up applying to a specialty theyve never rotated in. Probably made the scramble for LORs much worse this year unless you had several long term connections made previous to third year.
The biggest stressor this year is the uncertainty, planning auditions / boards a year out and dealing with constant cancelations (in a specialty where auditions mean pretty much everything) and having to make last minute rotation schedules. My back end of fourth year isnt even scheduled yet because hospitals that arent my base wont take me due to covid and my base hospital coordinator cant be bothered to answer an email/confirm a rotation for me in a pre-covid era and its only gotten magnitudes worse in the covid era. Not to mention i havent been online since 3 month in the spring and my school has an official limit on online electives (which i cant even schedule because my email response rate is like 10% since covid started for some reason).
So yeah still getting potential covid exposures daily, had my stress coping mechanism (the gym) taken from me for half the year, got family in the icu on a vent, still cant see/study with my friends (my ability to focus on studying is trashh anywhere not a lib/coffee shop) , has def not been a vacation as much as it may seem like it
Not to mention the effect on interviews, sure saving money is nice but there’s rampant interview hoarding. The ortho spreadsheet shows a bimodal distribution with peaks at 4 interviews and like 20 interviews. Programs have straight up admitted it in their rejection emails saying theyre not seeing as many cancelations/turn downs of interview offers as they see in a normal year. Not to mention anyone trying to break out of their region and not having been able to audition anywhere but at home is pretty much screwed.
From a work load standpoint, absolutely this year has been chill. But from a pure anxiety/stress stand point, I’d much rather of had a normal year
You referred to his post as tone deaf boomer speak. That is hardly a professional way to discuss something. I’m telling you to keep it professional. This thread already devolved into insults and mud slinging once, and I’m not going to let it get out of control again.
This isn’t a request. You can disagree without name calling (directly or indirectly). That one phrase was all I’m talking about. Feel free to disagree with him or tell him he’s being dismissive all you want.
Unless something drastic changes, I think my top choice on my ROL is solidified. That said, #2-5ish for me is much more confusing and I'm having a difficult time making that part of the list more final. The bottom programs are straight to the bottom for me.
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When I interviewed at one program I thought would be pretty far down my list, I found out I loved it. Now I'm back and forth as to which program is my current top choice. I came into it with a very clear #1 and it has all become not at all clear. One is better for X, the other for Y, and I don't know which is more important to me.
The residents at some of the places I expected to really like seemed tired and less enthusiastic on my interview days, too, and I have no idea how much weight to put on it. Maybe that one particular resident is just having an off day! But when I'm not seeing how all the other residents look, it's real hard to tell.
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deleted697308
i have rbf so if i weren't on interview and forced to smile i'd be frowning. lol. really wish these were in person sometimes.
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AnatomyGrey12
Same. The tip top of my list and the bottom are pretty much done. The middle though are a constantly shifting mess, but I think it’s probably the most important part of my list because I feel like there is a very real chance I drop below my top 2 just because I’m a DO trying to match MD surgery.
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deleted645092
Every single one of my interviews has revolved around the same 2 hobbies and my teaching experience. I’ve started tracking it and outside of the bad cop each interview day one of the same 3 things mentioned above dominates the conversation. It feels like purgatory sitting in the same spot having the same conversation over and over.
What I miss the most about a normal interview year is the travel. Even if it empties my bank account idc I live to travel.
What I miss the most about a normal interview year is the travel. Even if it empties my bank account idc I live to travel.
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deleted697308
I love my top 3!!!! after that I feel sad thinking about it. the bottom of my list is solidified as well. My top 5 are pretty solid too but i'm really hoping i stay in the top 3. I was in tears after those interviews because of how much I loved them. The programs in my top 5 were always my favorite programs though even before applying but interviewing there really just confirmed it. I am so lucky to have gotten them but after those I feel a little nauseated looking at some of those programs. Yes, some of them are top programs but I just can't imagine being there!
You're so smart and you deserve a shot at your top 2. If they gave you an interview, your foot is already in the door! Esp as a DO!!!
@ciestar didn’t you post a head to head comparison website that lets you rank everything against each other and generates a list? I forgot what it was called but I remember using it last year for the middle of my list and I thought it was you who had shared it.
Yes exactly! I think my top choice is cemented but beyond that, my number 2-5 ranks are consistently changing. I keep thinking back to the NRMP stat that says most folks get their top 4 or so and I guess it's just a wake-up call to carefully consider.
To be fair, I am applying to some combined programs. BUT I am still super grateful for the one place where the 2 program directors clearly coordinated so that everything fit into one day. Not only are other places often 2 days, but sometimes those 2 days are months apart from each other for the same institution. One place is even a 3 day interview, though they do say one of the days is optional and only if I want to learn more about research opportunities... It does make my head spin a bit.
My heart also really goes out to class of 2022. Even though they are now "back on clinicals" with no plans to cancel again, I can't imagine that they're getting the same quality of 3rd year experiences given that so many things have moved to telemedicine and/or minimizing unnecessary extra people. It has been impressive how some have really stepped up and done a lot of COVID volunteering with things like contact tracing, offering to help with vaccinations, etc., but I can't imagine that this was what they thought their med school experience was going to be.
Found out I was taken off the waitlist and scheduled for an interview for one of my top choices. This program is a reach and will be competitive but at least now I have a chance. Feeling especially thankful for the applicant that cancelled their interview. Thank you to those with many IV invites that are deciding to cancel those places with whom they don’t have a strong connection or are unlikely to rank high. When you decline that interview spot it might just open the door for someone else to match at their dream program.
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poking my head in as a 2022er (rooting for all of you panicking M4s!), I'm sure it varies dramatically by school and hospital system but I actually think my class got the least screwed of any, with the significant exception of all the Step 1 chaos. You all lost huge chunks of your 3rd and 4th years - for us, rotations were delayed and there were some early issues with patient volume, but we eventually got on track, and I feel like i've gotten plenty of clinical exposure. But I'm also in a state thats basically given up on covid (yay florida) so everything's feeling surprisingly back to normal in the hospitals. The M1s and M2s are getting pretty screwed though with zoom school and restrictions on things like shadowing, student clinics, research etc that people would usually be doing during preclinicals. Unless things change soon, some of them are going to be hitting the wards with almost zero meaningful prior patient exposure, which I'm sure will sort itself out in the end but sounds stressful to me.
What was the point of your contribution?
OK, so it's not a super-exciting program, but I got an email from a program in my preferred specialty that rejected me weeks ago.
It was a personalized email from the program director saying that my name was on a list of applicants to take a second look at for one reason or another and the rejection I had received was in error. And that I'll be receiving an II today 😀
It's gonna be a great week, I can feel it!!
It was a personalized email from the program director saying that my name was on a list of applicants to take a second look at for one reason or another and the rejection I had received was in error. And that I'll be receiving an II today 😀
It's gonna be a great week, I can feel it!!
sorry, from now on i will limit my comments to angrily dismissing people who are trying to contribute a comment on their related experiences to a larger ongoing discussion
sometimes the rest of us like to poke our heads in here to check on y'all and engage a bit. We want to see you succeed but also recognize that y'all have faced an especially tough year
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deleted645092
So there’s hope that our rejections were all mistakes and I should email programs telling them to take a closer look just in case they didn’t mean to reject me.
Believe it or not... this is the SECOND TIME this cycle that a program meant to give me an interview invite, and then apologized for not giving me one. Except the first one didn't reject me; they just filled up without inviting me before realizing their error (I had networked them pretty hard over the summer). The minute someone cancelled, they got me scheduled.
I don't know why I keep slipping through the cracks 😳 Whatever though; I'll take it. I'm stoked for both interviews!
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deleted697308
lots of people I know lol. i saw a study somewhere which showed that most of us are bad judges in how well we do in interviews. and actually people who felt that they performed badly got higher clerkship scores than poeple who thought they aced it.
i don't feel good after any so lol
I am curious if somehow you are getting caught in a reapplicant filter because that's crazy that its happened to you twice now.
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