Columbia grad, 3.51 cGPA, 3.28 sGPA

[NYCPremedGirl]

.I'm trying to figure out what my next steps should be. I just graduated from Columbia University undergrad with a 3.51 cGPA, 3.28 sGPA. When I read other posts on this forum and realize that lots of posters have really high GPAs, I kind of freaked out. The pre-med advisor at my school told me I was in good shape for med school as long as I do well on the MCAT and suggested taking a few upper-level science classes to boost my sGPA. She gave the same advice to other friends of mine with similar grades and I know of at least 10 people who got into good med schools (though not the top 20) with my stats and sub-par MCAT scores (like 30). I noticed that a few people have written about Columbia's postbacc program on this forum, but haven't noticed much about Columbia undergrad. So heres how it was: Biology curves to a C+. My orgo class both semesters didn't curve at all. Physics: sem1 curved to a B, sem2 curved to B-. Gen chem: sem1: curved to B, sem1: curved to B-. Generally, only a handful of students get As in each class. My grades were all slightly above or at the average, except calculus I & II where I got an A & A- and was far above the average. I also did research for credit at Columbia Med School 4 semesters and got an A every semester. My PI and post-doc love me and have nothing but good things to say about the work I've done and how I've contributed. I designed my own project one semester and got desirable results. My post-doc is currently writing up a paper draft and hoping to have it published (we got great results so I think its likely).
My major was History, focused in History of Science, Medicine, & Environmental History (which I loved!) and that gpa was probably about a 3.7.
ECs: tons of hospital volunteering & was head of a volunteer program at a local hospital, exec board position in pre-health club, have published some history of science articles, orientation leader, also had another research position and the guy I researched for won a prestigious NIH grant (first in his field), tons of private tutoring for HS and middle school kids. I also won a presitgious grant one summer to conduct my research.

So, I just graduated about a week ago and I was wondering what you think the best choice for a next step is. I am currently enrolled in the NYC Teaching Fellows Program http://www.nycteachingfellows.org/ which means I'll be teaching at a middle school or high school in a low-income, high-needs school in the NYC public schools for the next 2-3 years. I was selected to teach biology. This program also has a mandatory masters in education which is subsidized by the NYC dept. Ed and is only 31 credits and apparently very manageable/easy. I'm planning to take 3 upper-level bio courses (with the goal of getting As) over the next 2-3 years and taking and MCAT course this summer.
I also have an interview offer with a highly-regarded clinical research lab that I am considering going and if I get the job, I’d consider doing that instead of Teaching Fellows. I have been really excited about the idea of teaching for a few years, but the clinical research is also appealing . . . though I am a bit sick of research after 2+ years of benchwork. I absolutely love kids which is why teaching excites/interests me and my medical interests are adolescent medicine and child psychiatry. My career goal is to work in/start a program for disadvantaged/low income youth with physical/psychological problems, etc.

So what do you guys all think? Do I have a good shot at med school . . . and what route (of the ones listed . . . or perhaps a different suggestion if you have one?) should I take for the next 2-3 years. I definitely want to take 2-3 years off before going to med school.

Also, what do you think about the fact that Columbia is definitely a very hard-grading school? For example, in my meeting with her, she cited a Columbia students who graduated with a cGPA of 3.2 or 3.3 and sGPA 2.9 in 2007 who took 2 years off, took 2-3 bio course at Hunter and got As, got a 37 MCAT, and got into Case Western and waitlisted at NYU. I've also heard of people with 3.4 cGPAs at Columbia, high Mcat scores, & good ECs getting into ivy-league med schools though I'm sure thats not the norm. The pre-med advisor seems to suggest that med schools know that Columbia grades hard, but from seeing other comments on this forum, I'm not convinced. I absolutely LOVED columbia although it was hard, but now I'm very worried that my undergrad is going to mess up my chances for med school. I had taken some courses at Brown & my state school in high school/summer and thought they were a joke compared to Columbia, so I definitely know its a lot easier to get As at other schools.
And for the MCAT: my plan is to not take it until I'm scoring at least 35s on the practice tests.

Also, in terms of taking a few extra bio classes: should I take them at Columbia, or should I take them at CUNY Hunter or another school? If I do take them at Columbia, I plan to do a ton of research about professors/how to do well in the class and make sure I have ample time to study before I enroll . . . but I wonder if taking them at a different school is a better option? Columbia is also expensive ($1000 per credit, which I’d have to pay myself because its definitely not fair to ask my parents for that kind of money after 4 years at Columbia! But I wonder if the name is worth the money, esp since I did my undergrad there.)

Also: during 2 of my college years, I suffered 2 very physically painful medical conditions which definitely hampered my ability to do as well as possible. I wasn't planning on mentioning this in my applications (because I think it sounds whiney) but thought I'd mention it here just so you can get the full picture..
.Also: I’m a white female from an upper-class background (though I don’t know if my background will be reflected in my applications because I have NY state residency and will be living on my own in NY with my own salary rather than as a dependent)..
.Any advice/suggestions would be much appreciated. I’d love to think that a top tier school is within the realm of possibilities if everything goes as planned the next few years, but I know its important to be realistic too..

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[anxiousteen]

i went to an ivy so i understand where you're coming from.
you still need to raise your sgpa to show that you're capable of handling medical school. you need a high mcat score too.

 

[NYCPremedGirl]

yeah I know. sGPA needs to go up for sure. I was planning on taking science classes until my science GPA is at a certain level. What do you think is a safe number . . . perhaps like sGPA of 3.4? Also, I didn't factor the research for credit grades (4 A's) into my sGPA. Should they be included? Where did you go to school? I bet you loved it too, but hard right? erghhh. I seriously don't understand how med schools can prefer someone with a 3.8-4.0 from a random easy-grading school where you're not competing against top students . . . but then again, I guess it makes sense if they have a high MCAT score too. ergh.

 

[daisy44]

Ugh I can sympathize too, I went to a high-ranked, very grade-deflated school as well. Since we have to spend more time to get decent grades, consequently we have less time for ECs, studying for the MCAT, etc. I liked my school, but if I could do it again I would definitely consider going for an easier school.

 

[NYCPremedGirl]

yeah for real. i spent 85% of my time in college struggling to stay with/beat curves.

Any advice anyone has will be much appreciated!!

 

[witness23]

I went to the same school as you. I would recommend that you study hard for your MCAT (35+) and raise your sGPA to around 3.5ish if you still want chance at the top schools. there are always exceptions, but playing the game to be one of the rare cases is not a good strategy imo. I do commend you on the NYC teaching fellows thing. I looked into it too and sounds like a great program.

 

[JJMrK]

erghhh. I seriously don't understand how med schools can prefer someone with a 3.8-4.0 from a random easy-grading school where you're not competing against top students . . . but then again, I guess it makes sense if they have a high MCAT score too. ergh.

So heres how it was: Biology curves to a C+. My orgo class both semesters didn't curve at all. Physics: sem1 curved to a B, sem2 curved to B-. Gen chem: sem1: curved to B, sem1: curved to B-. Generally, only a handful of students get As in each class.

Honestly, that doesn't sound like hard grading to me. Curving to a B? Sounds pretty nice.

Your GPA is what it is. Don't complain, just fix it and nail your MCAT.

 

[NYCPremedGirl]

only 2 of them curved to a B. more often, my classes curved to a B-, one curved to a C+, and a few didn't curve at all. I wasn't trying to complain and I certainly admit that I didn't try my hardest all the time. I was just saying that only a handful of people in each class seemed to get A's and most pre-meds I know from my school have a lot of B grades. Also: its not only about what grade the class curves to, but WHO you are graded against. those were the points I was trying to make. All the information I provided was intended to help people on this forum understand where I'm coming from (and how it was at my school) so as to judge my stats; it certainly wasn't meant as a complaint or as a offense to anyone who didn't go to a top-rated school. Please don't take it that way! 🙂

 

[JJMrK]

only 2 of them curved to a B. more often, my classes curved to a B-, one curved to a C+, and a few didn't curve at all. I wasn't trying to complain and I certainly admit that I didn't try my hardest all the time. I was just saying that only a handful of people in each class seemed to get A's and most pre-meds I know from my school have a lot of B grades. Also: its not only about what grade the class curves to, but WHO you are graded against. those were the points I was trying to make. All the information I provided was intended to help people on this forum understand where I'm coming from (and how it was at my school) so as to judge my stats; it certainly wasn't meant as a complaint or as a offense to anyone who didn't go to a top-rated school. Please don't take it that way! 🙂

I don't. You just came off like you were whining (and still do, to some extent).

In the end, your GPA is your GPA, no matter where you went to school. Like it or not, that's the number that represents you. Having said that, your GPA isn't very far below average, and your science GPA just needs a little work.

Killing the MCAT will help back up your theory that your school grades harder than most.

 

[student1799]

.
Also, what do you think about the fact that Columbia is definitely a very hard-grading school? For example, in my meeting with her, she cited a Columbia students who graduated with a cGPA of 3.2 or 3.3 and sGPA 2.9 in 2007 who took 2 years off, took 2-3 bio course at Hunter and got As, got a 37 MCAT, and got into Case Western and waitlisted at NYU. I've also heard of people with 3.4 cGPAs at Columbia, high Mcat scores, & good ECs getting into ivy-league med schools though I'm sure thats not the norm. The pre-med advisor seems to suggest that med schools know that Columbia grades hard, but from seeing other comments on this forum, I'm not convinced..

You shouldn't be. I went to Columbia postbacc myself, and I don't know who your adviser is, but she is clearly blowing smoke up your &ss. (Not that the postbacc advisers are any better ...)

I sympathize with you about the grading--and, more importantly, workload--at Columbia. (That hag Mowshowitz probably cost me 0.2 on my sGPA all by herself.) However, no one else really does. The truth of the matter is that med schools seem to care much more about the numerical level of your GPA than the quality of the school it came from, at least in the initial screening process. Thus, a 4.0 from Podunk U trumps a 3.5 from Harvard every time. And if you fall below a med school's numerical screen for getting an interview, they're unlikely to go back and reconsider just because you went to a certain school. Yes, Columbia's name probably confers a small intangible benefit, but it's really small. And at state institutions such as the SUNYs, where the admissions process tends to be more formula-driven than at private schools, you're really going to be out of luck.

I got into med school this year--two schools, in fact--but it was a real uphill battle. I'm a nontrad student, much older than you and coming from a 20-year career in another field. I have ancient GPA baggage from college (very troubled family circumstances affected my grades), but an MBA with honors from Columbia--which doesn't count for squat--and a 3.6 BCPM from the postbacc program. I also had extremely strong ECs (over 500 volunteer hours in clinical research, with an MD LOR) and an interesting life story. Guess what I found out? NONE OF THIS COUNTS FOR MUCH UNLESS YOU CAN NAIL THE MCAT.

I thought I could do this (consistently scoring 35 and 36 on practice tests), but on the real thing my nerves killed me in the PS section and I got an unbalanced score (31S: 7 PS-13 VR-11 BS). I knew right then that my hopes for staying in NY for med school (I have a husband and kids here) were probably shot, and I was right. I applied super-broadly: 27 schools all over the country, mostly mid- and low-tier places. I also retook the MCAT in January and did much better (33R: 12 PS-11 VR-10 BS), but to my extreme frustration, I couldn't get ANY of the schools to look at my score or consider it in admissions decisions--even the schools which had already granted me interviews.

Because I'm a good writer and I went on an all-out campaign to get interviews by sending LOIs, I did get quite a few: 8 in all. But the only school that accepted me outright was Rosalind Franklin, and I got waitlisted at 5 other places. One of them (U of Vermont) just came through for me recently, and that's where I'll be going. UVM is a great school, but it still bothers me to have to go hundreds of miles away and only see my family on weekends. If the NY schools hadn't all spat on me, I might have been able to stay here, but that MCAT killed me with even the lower-end places like NYMC and SUNY Downstate. (They rejected me on November 19th, even though my career goal is to go into academia and work with underserved patients.)

So, if you want my opinion, your chances are not great unless you really nail the MCAT (and I mean 35+). NYC Teaching Fellows is a great EC, but you also need to rack up a bunch of high-quality clinical volunteer time to strengthen your app. If I were you, I'd plan to spend a couple of years getting ready to apply: taking science classes at Hunter (not Columbia!) to raise your sGPA, volunteering in a hospital (as well as keeping up some form of community service) and studying for the MCAT. THEN you might have a shot, but you're going to have to apply broadly and prepare to go far from home for med school.

Sorry to be a downer, but it's brutal out there. Prepare yourself for battle.

 

[NYCPremedGirl]

congrats on UVM! Thats great! . . . I'm sorry you can't be closer to your husband and kids though. I can't even imagine.

Thanks for the advice. Yeah, I'm definitely not convinced; however, I still have yet to meet anyone who graduated from Columbia with grades comparable to mine and lower than mine who didn't get into med school. I had 2 friends get in this year--one had the same GPA as me and a sub-par MCAT (29) and got into 3 decent schools and another friend had a GPA comparable to mine and a high MCAT and got into a bunch of good schools too. Neither of them had clinical experience (but I definietely plan to do more clinical work!) Another friend of mine has like a cGPA of 3.48 and a sGPA a bit lower and the pre-med advisor said he was in "good shape" for med school.
The pre-med advisor is generally known to be very honesty and is generally right . . . so I definitely think I have a shot at med school but definitely need to do everything you said. As you said, its tough out there for sure and there is a lot of stiff competition. I'll do everything I can and hope for the best. It probably is a better idea to take extra classes at Hunter rather than Columbia because Columbia is so expensive and the grading is risky.

Thanks for sharing your story. Its always great to gain insight about a wide array of non-traditional cases.

 

[ChemTA3788]

Honestly, that doesn't sound like hard grading to me. Curving to a B? Sounds pretty nice.

Your GPA is what it is. Don't complain, just fix it and nail your MCAT.

Agreed. Most of my classes curved to a 70-75ish. Bio Classes were notorious hard to get A's in. A's were based on curves. Genetics had 5 or so A's out of 100 kids. Same with intro Bio, micro, anatomy, physio, immuno, etc etc. Most generous professor I had gave out 15 or so A's in a class of 100. That being said, It seems like upper div class (grad classes) had alot more A's. 10/40 Kids with A's. Guess they are more leniant then just trying to weed out kids.

Anyways, since you had to work for your A's, I'm sure you will ace your MCAT.

 

[JJMrK]

So, if you want my opinion, your chances are not great unless you really nail the MCAT (and I mean 35+). NYC Teaching Fellows is a great EC, but you also need to rack up a bunch of high-quality clinical volunteer time to strengthen your app. If I were you, I'd plan to spend a couple of years getting ready to apply: taking science classes at Hunter (not Columbia!) to raise your sGPA, volunteering in a hospital (as well as keeping up some form of community service) and studying for the MCAT. THEN you might have a shot, but you're going to have to apply broadly and prepare to go far from home for med school.

Congrats on your acceptance, but I think the OP's situation is a little bit different. Honestly I think what hurt you most was that 7 on PS. A lot of people talk about 8 being the cut-off for many schools in any one section. If the OP pulls a balanced 31 I think she has a great shot at schools like NYMC. A 33+ would open up even more options.

All my opinion, of course.

 

[student1799]

Congrats on your acceptance, but I think the OP's situation is a little bit different. Honestly I think what hurt you most was that 7 on PS. A lot of people talk about 8 being the cut-off for many schools in any one section. If the OP pulls a balanced 31 I think she has a great shot at schools like NYMC. A 33+ would open up even more options.

All my opinion, of course.

I completely agree with you that it's the 7 that killed me at most schools. However, based on my application experience, I also believe that I still would have needed a relatively high MCAT--like the 33 I scored, but too late--to have much of a shot at med school in NY, where I really wanted to go. Even schools like Downstate now have 32-ish average MCATs and 3.7 GPAs. But I at least had a 3.6 sGPA to help me, and the bad grades that dragged down my uGPA were over 20 years old, which allowed me to argue that I'm a completely different student now than I was then.

The OP, on the other hand, has a lower sGPA than I had, and her so-so grades are much more recent. Thus, she has a bit more to prove, making it that much more important to get a high MCAT score.

 

[JJMrK]

I completely agree with you that it's the 7 that killed me at most schools. However, based on my application experience, I also believe that I still would have needed a relatively high MCAT--like the 33 I scored, but too late--to have much of a shot at med school in NY, where I really wanted to go. Even schools like Downstate now have 32-ish average MCATs and 3.7 GPAs. But I at least had a 3.6 sGPA to help me, and the bad grades that dragged down my uGPA were over 20 years old, which allowed me to argue that I'm a completely different student now than I was then.

The OP, on the other hand, has a lower sGPA than I had, and her so-so grades are much more recent. Thus, she has a bit more to prove, making it that much more important to get a high MCAT score.

Could be, I'm not that familiar with NY schools, and you've been through the process recently. In any case, the advice is the same: OP, go destroy the MCAT.

 

[mmmcdowe]

I'm going to step out on a limb and say that while your lower GPA is going to hurt at schools insensitive to where you went, its my understanding that lots of schools do get it. It's not going to make up for it all, but it might give you a .1-.3 GPA boost as far as a lot of adcoms are concerned.

 

[rHinO1]

only 2 of them curved to a B. more often, my classes curved to a B-, one curved to a C+, and a few didn't curve at all. I wasn't trying to complain and I certainly admit that I didn't try my hardest all the time. I was just saying that only a handful of people in each class seemed to get A's and most pre-meds I know from my school have a lot of B grades. Also: its not only about what grade the class curves to, but WHO you are graded against. those were the points I was trying to make. All the information I provided was intended to help people on this forum understand where I'm coming from (and how it was at my school) so as to judge my stats; it certainly wasn't meant as a complaint or as a offense to anyone who didn't go to a top-rated school. Please don't take it that way! 🙂

It really doesn't matter what the curve was for any of your classes. From what you said you performed at the average. That means that relative to the students in your class you were an average student. You seem to think that an average student at columbia makes you a significantly above average student at another school. Unfortunately, there are a lot of good schools out there and a lot of exceptional students. My advice is to look at your situation realistically. You have what I think are really good EC's, a competitive cGPA, and you have the potential to score great on the MCAT. However, you have a low sGPA that may need some work. If I were you I would take a few classes to pull my sGPA up, even if it meant waiting to apply so I could put my best foot forward. If I was applying with your stats as they are now, I would include a couple of D.O. schools just to be safe.

 

[redlight]

i agree with rhino except with the DO bit. don't do DO unless you are interested in the field.
also, applying early and very broadly with a very solid mcat will help you a LOT. your advisor has access to columbia students' med school profiles, so i would trust his opinion of how competitive your application is. and yes, your research WILL likely count towards you sgpa if it was benchwork through a bio/chem department--even though it was done at the med school.

 

[redlight]

also, OP, columbia is a good/tough school.. but there is definitely grade inflation.
as cited from "Meeting of the Columbia University Faculty of Arts & Sciences, May 8, 2007"

"Grade inflation increases here as most places. 70% of grades are now in the range of A+ to B+. The percent of As given in the Core has risen during the past decade from 47% to 55%. In the sciences, A's have increased from 40% to 45%."

that's a lot of good grades being handed out... there are many equally tough schools that dont hand out quite as many A's... but anyways, this is to back up what rhinoo said. there are many people making good grades at columbia so dont assume you will get a substantial lift coming from your rigorous ugrad.

 

[student1799]

"In the sciences, A’s have increased from 40% to 45%."

That must mean that upper-level science classes are a cakewalk, because I never took an entry-level science class at Columbia which gave 40% A's. For example, take intro bio: there's only ONE professor (that Mowshowitz person I mentioned), who curves to a C+ and gives about 10% A's. On top of that, her exams are entirely essay questions and are graded in a highly subjective manner.

Besides, the curve itself doesn't tell the whole story. It's a question of the difficulty of the work required to get that A. In comparing notes with students from other schools, both on SDN and in person, it seems that Columbia (and I'm sure some other schools too) asks a lot more of the students in these basic courses. For example, last year there was a thread in pre-allo where students were talking about their orgo classes, and based on those comments, it seems that the MIDTERMS I took at Columbia were harder than the finals many students had to take at state schools. For example, our midterms asked for 10-step mechanisms and syntheses that required more than 5 steps, while many students never had to do mechanisms of more than 5 steps. So if I had gone to one of those other schools, I think I'd have been able to get a much better grade in the class, even with a tougher curve, because the work would have been a lot easier.

However, as I said to the OP earlier, it hardly makes a difference anyway, because med schools don't appear to make any significant "quality adjustments" to applicants' GPAs to account for the rigor of their schools. Even if they did, it can only help so much, and I don't think it's enough to get the OP in without some further strengthening of her application.

 

[redlight]

gen bio is columbia's main weeder. i haven't heard nearly as many complaints from the other pre req courses. it is very tough at columbia, i understand that. you guys have my sympathy in that course.

and i think it's clear columbia is a very rigorous school in general. i'm just saying that columbia is most definitely not the hardest ugrad, it does not have a monopoly on tough courses/profs/departments, and plenty people come out with a good gpa. students from equally rigorous schools (like princeton) don't have have nearly as much grade inflation as say yale, brown, stanford, and columbia.

i agree that the boost from coming from great schools like columbia is likely minor. once you get out of the objective cut offs, though, that minor boost probably ends up being more important (interviewer bias, maybe even extra points somewhere on a point system, etc.)

 

[BigD311]

think your situation is bad? Try taking some science classes at UVA or UC Berkeley. Ive never been in a class without a forced curve with 10-14% As.

I've learned to just suck it up and deal. Not much I can do about it now and worrying just makes it worse.

 

[buccsmf1]

lol... what? You're complain about curves up to a B, B-, C+ ??? LOL

I went to a state supported school and NEVER had a class that curved up to a B. The majority of my science classes curved to a 75 and never one point higher than that, but often lower.

-My comparative vertebrate anatomy class (5 credit hour with 6 hours of brutal lab each week) only curved up to a 70, the lowest possible C. So by the end of the semester only half the kids that completed the class even got credit for having taken it.....

-My orgo 2 class had 170 students to start. 70 dropped by withdrawal date. Of the 100 left we received no curve and another 40 failed. So of the 170 that started.... 110 got a D or F in the class.....

-Calculus is curved down.... Teachers are to STRICTLY maintain a 60% fail rate. We took our first test of the semester and 50% of the class failed. My teacher actually got called into the math and physics dean's office to talk about how he let 50% of the class pass the first test... lets just say test 2 wasn't very fun....

I love to hear about how kids at private schools think their school is so much harder and that if they went to a state-supported school they'd be cruising along with a 4.0.... give me a break. My brother goes to UVA and he gave me his orgo stuff to help me review for the MCAT and his tests were no harder than mine.... (yes i know UVA is state supported but it's top 20 overall in the country)

But back on topic... try as best you can to raise your sGPA and do WELL on the mcat and you'll be fine.

 

[student1799]

Calculus is curved down.... Teachers are to STRICTLY maintain a 60% fail rate.

What kind of sadistic school did you go to? I don't care if it was private, public or on Mars, a mandated 60% fail rate is insane and a total disservice to the students.

 

[gocatgo]

think your situation is bad? Try taking some science classes at UVA or UC Berkeley. Ive never been in a class without a forced curve with 10-14% As.

I've learned to just suck it up and deal. Not much I can do about it now and worrying just makes it worse.

Yah, Berkeley is brutal 🙁

 

[JJMrK]

think your situation is bad? Try taking some science classes at UVA or UC Berkeley. Ive never been in a class without a forced curve with 10-14% As.

I've learned to just suck it up and deal. Not much I can do about it now and worrying just makes it worse.

Huh? How is that a bad situation? Sounds like a lot of As being given out to me.

 

[BigD311]

Maybe it sounds that way...try being in a class with a small st. deviation with grades. Chances are, you will be screwed if you aren't on the very top.

Additionally, the environment when everyone is competing to be in that 10-14% is miserable.

And i dont know what you consider a lot, but I assure you...it isnt. Wish it was more and in many schools, it probably is for the same classes that I or many in our position took.

 

[buccsmf1]

What kind of sadistic school did you go to? I don't care if it was private, public or on Mars, a mandated 60% fail rate is insane and a total disservice to the students.

all the weed-out classes at my school (bio 1, gen-chem 1, calc 1) had mandatory fail rates of over 50% with calc I being the highest at 60%.

fail rates like that are needed to get rid of the pre-meds and pre-engineers that aren't serious

 

[BigD311]

what school is that?

 

[daisy44]

please. what school do you go to that supposedly has 60% fail rates...

 

[rHinO1]

all the weed-out classes at my school (bio 1, gen-chem 1, calc 1) had mandatory fail rates of over 50% with calc I being the highest at 60%.

fail rates like that are needed to get rid of the pre-meds and pre-engineers that aren't serious

Is the sky is not falling too?. . . Seriously, if your school has that high of a fail rate that blows.

As far as I know a typical curve is designed so that most students receive a C, not so that they fail. A "C" is supposed to be an average grade, and if you perform average then it makes sense you get a C.

 

[karayraisu]

try being in a class with a small st. deviation with grades. Chances are, you will be screwed if you aren't on the very top.

Why small standard deviation? It's harder with a BIG standard deviation! For example: consider my school, which is generally +1 SD = A, +0 SD = B/B-/C+, -1 SD = C

Consider two classes with averages of 65. SD in one class is 10 and another is 20 (I've been in both kinds of classes). Which one is harder to get an A in?

 

[rHinO1]

all the weed-out classes at my school (bio 1, gen-chem 1, calc 1) had mandatory fail rates of over 50% with calc I being the highest at 60%.

fail rates like that are needed to get rid of the pre-meds and pre-engineers that aren't serious

It's funny. . . C's do the same thing 🙂

 

[JJMrK]

Maybe it sounds that way...try being in a class with a small st. deviation with grades. Chances are, you will be screwed if you aren't on the very top.

Additionally, the environment when everyone is competing to be in that 10-14% is miserable.

And i dont know what you consider a lot, but I assure you...it isnt. Wish it was more and in many schools, it probably is for the same classes that I or many in our position took.

I don't know. I've been in many classes with 3-7% As and over 50% Fs and Ds.

 

[BigD311]

jammer...were those percentages forced or did they just happen that way?

The percentages I gave are pre-determined by the dept no matter what people get. Its on our syllabus.

And with a small st. deviation, if everyone scores within 1 or 2 points of the average, a lot of the people at the lower end are going to see some big surprises when that curve is compressed. Particularly if the desired average is a B-. That means those with a 79 may fail due to the compression. Does that mean you don't know the material enough to get credit? Of course not, it just means relative to the class, you weren't as strong. But then you have to question the purpose of education. Is it meant to evaluate what YOU know as a student in the course, or as a student relative to your peers? I think someone getting a 79 should pass every time.

Bottom line in my opinion: forced curves and grade distributions do nothing but foster a competitive atmosphere for students and breeds behavior that goes against what we should all be doing once we become doctors; working together.

forced curves and grade distributions make a competitive atmosphere that teaches the wrong student-student relationship. Instead of competing with each other, premeds should be learning to work together since we should all be doing that as docs some day. This system fails miserably at that.

If your argument is that forced curves weed people out then that just weakens the argument for having an MCAT. As a standardized test, the MCAT should be (and I have faith that it is) designed to level the playing field based on the academic strength of students from different institutions. This concept of having weed out courses is ridiculous. Make the classes challenging? Yes, absolutely. But force people to fail when they know a passing % of material? That's just absurd.

 

[muir]

I know I will get booed out of this forum but I have to say... People who go to ivy league schools think they have life SOOOOO hard. Well, I've got news for you and it's from the real world. Universities other than ivy leagues have hard grading systems. Just because a person sucks at life in college doesn't mean that the college is hard at grading. If this was the case, then alot of college's would be ivy leagues... but... THEY'RE NOT.

You'd probably say I go to Poduck U. and say that my undergraduate education is completely useless, I'm a slacker, or whatever else... but I have news. It's hard to work anywhere you go so you need to pull a SDSU. Not San Diego State University... Not South Dakota State University... A Sit Down and Shut Up. Take the MCAT and score high. Just hold your complaints next time you want to talk about how high and mighty Columbia or any other ivy league is.

BOOM.

 

[BigD311]

who are you to say anyone is commenting on the difficulty of their school because "they suck at life". Thats quite an ignorant comment you are making. Unless you have taken a course at one of the aforementioned schools then you really cannot speak out about the difficulty of their respective programs, can you? Yea, didn't think so.

perhaps you need to find a better and more constructive way to articulate your thoughts.

 

[BigD311]

oh, one more thing. BOOM.

 

[muir]

BigD311: As a human being I value your thoughts. However, as a rational human being that is supposed to be engaging in rational discourse with other mature, rational creatures.... I do not.

Here is why you are acting and talking irrationally:

You say "if I do not have an experience of something, I cannot know it". Well, if we as human beings could not have an experience of knowledge, then we could not have knowledge. Of course, we do have knowledge which means at some point a creature had to have a completely new experience of knowledge. This is evident by the material in the numerous textbooks you were supposed to read in your undergraduate education but probably didn't in favor of posting on studentdoctor.net. Your argument for the acquisition of knowledge has been shown to be false. There cannot be a lack of knowledge and knowledge. That my friend is a contradiction which you probably haven't heard of either. Contradictions are always FALSE.

As I evaluate the motives for your irrational anger, I cannot help but think you may be one of the people who I was talking about. You don't have to be hurt. The French have a saying for this: "Such is life." You didn't make a personal choice to be in the position you find yourself in but you don't need to blame me. Please, be rational. Medical schools love great GPAs and MCATs, but if you're not rational, you'll kill someone. So please, save a life. Don't become a doctor.

 

[student1799]

Whoa there. The tone of this discussion is getting way too vicious. Can we all just try to take a deep breath?

The OP in this thread asked for feedback on her chances of admission to med school, given her below-average GPA. She did not ask for an assessment of her general intelligence, worth as a human being or fitness to be a doctor. So let's keep those considerations out of the debate, both in relation to her and vis-a-vis other posters.

I don't know why every thread like the OP's has to degenerate into an Ivy-vs.-non-Ivy flame war, as this one clearly has. Frankly, I think a lot of the blame rests on the non- (or, more accurately, anti-) Ivy camp, who seem very eager to heap opprobrium on anyone with a low GPA, no matter what the circumstances behind it. These people seem to equate low GPA with low intellligence, and indeed with "sucking at life." And if the low-GPA person went to an Ivy school, they are branded lazy whiners for complaining that their school was hard.

Can't we all find some common ground here? ALL premed classes are hard, and this process is grueling for everyone. But getting a below-average GPA doesn't mean that someone is stupid or would make a bad doctor, any more than getting a 4.0 means you're a genius and would make a great one. The fact is, grades are only one source of information on an applicant's qualifications, and not a fantastic one either. Just because med schools are obsessed with them doesn't mean that they necessarily should be.

So can't we recognize that we're all in this grueling rat race together, and stop attacking each other's credentials? It doesn't accomplish anything except hurting a lot of people's feelings.

 

[BigD311]

Thank you for analyzing my potential success as a doctor, muir. I'll be sure to keep it in mind.

 

[Conky]

That must mean that upper-level science classes are a cakewalk, because I never took an entry-level science class at Columbia which gave 40% A's. For example, take intro bio: there's only ONE professor (that Mowshowitz person I mentioned), who curves to a C+ and gives about 10% A's. On top of that, her exams are entirely essay questions and are graded in a highly subjective manner.

I was a few points below average on every single of her tests second semester and got a b-. I did hate her tests though.

 

[Conky]

Here's a profile that has similar numbers as you from columbia from this past cycle with a 33S mcat.

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?myid=16420

 

[adele87]

Wow, this discussion about grades is out of control. Going to Columbia will give you a definite advantage, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I went to a top-ranked Ivy and have seen the average numbers for accepted students from our school. Certain top 20 schools accept as many as 30% of our undergrads with GPAs significantly lower (up to 0.2-0.3) than the overall published averages for each medical school. Granted, with a lower GPA, you will want to apply broadly with a strong MCAT and brace for some rejections. However, after seeing friends from top undergrad schools go through the process, I can assure you that you are not doomed, and you are also probably not lazy! In my experience a lot of science courses curve up because the tests are written such that essentially no one receives an "A" raw score. But, whatever.

Also, NY Teaching Fellows isn't an "EC", it's a well-respected job offer that you should take if you think it is a good fit for you. This is your life! As long as you've had sufficient exposure to the medical professions through your activities (and it sounds like you have), go and do what is going to enrich you personally and make you happy. I agree with everything student1799 said. I hope that whereever I might go to medical school the students there aren't the type that sit around on message boards arguing about discrepancies in grading policies. my goodness.

 

[JJMrK]

Wow, this discussion about grades is out of control. Going to Columbia will give you a definite advantage, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I went to a top-ranked Ivy and have seen the average numbers for accepted students from our school. Certain top 20 schools accept as many as 30% of our undergrads with GPAs significantly lower (up to 0.2-0.3) than the overall published averages for each medical school. Granted, with a lower GPA, you will want to apply broadly with a strong MCAT and brace for some rejections. However, after seeing friends from top undergrad schools go through the process, I can assure you that you are not doomed, and you are also probably not lazy! In my experience a lot of science courses curve up because the tests are written such that essentially no one receives an "A" raw score. But, whatever.

Also, NY Teaching Fellows isn't an "EC", it's a well-respected job offer that you should take if you think it is a good fit for you. This is your life! As long as you've had sufficient exposure to the medical professions through your activities (and it sounds like you have), go and do what is going to enrich you personally and make you happy. I agree with everything student1799 said. I hope that whereever I might go to medical school the students there aren't the type that sit around on message boards arguing about discrepancies in grading policies. my goodness.

A little biased are we? 🙄

 

[adele87]

A little biased are we? 🙄

Sure, I'm biased. I loved college and if I could do it again I would not trade my experience for a 4.0 anywhere else. I mention my background primarily to support my assertion that I have seen the numbers for applicants from my school and have noted that medical schools are more lenient in terms of the GPAs they will accept from my undergrad compared to the overall applicant pool. No, I have not done studies and tested for statistical significance; however, all the data I've seen suggests that undergraduate prestige does play a role, and it's not as marginal as some might claim. You're right; attending an Ivy will not make or break your application. But it only makes sense that students from highly competitive schools be considered in the context of their environment. I have heard that some med schools value undergraduate prestige more than others, so that's a good thing for the OP to ask around about.

The MCAT in this case is especially informative, so in the end, we both agree. 🙂

 

[JJMrK]

The MCAT in this case is especially informative, so in the end, we both agree. 🙂

The MCAT is the great equalizer, but GPA shows hard work and dedication over a number of years.

If the OP gets in somewhere with his low BCPM GPA, more power to him. I'm just saying that schools aren't going to overlook a low GPA because you went somewhere "good". There are too many people who went to the same "good" school and did really, really well.

 

[BBender716]

Conclusion:

I think an Ivy background factors in qualitatively. If two students are being compared or if a student is borderline wait-list/acceptance, the Ivy background may TIP the opinion of an adcom in a favorable direction.

That said, not a huge huge difference, but favorable when it comes down to the wire, which we all know it can in the wonderful world of medical school admissions. As for grading scales, etc.

MCAT = "great equalizer", better indication of smarts but with a much smaller sample size (1-2) so it could vary because of an "off day" or a little bit of luck with the subjects focused on for a given test.

GPA = can be deceiving because it's not nationally normalized, more accurate for what it does tell (comparison to immediate peers) because of a much larger sample size (90+ credit hours).

Put them together and... well we have the mystery of med school admissions.