Columbia vs. UCSF

[Cerberus]

Berkely Premed: I think the fact that you know so much about this crap and actually care solidifies your position as biggest douchebag in the entire forum. Congrats, you are finally in the "Top 10".

Gleevec: keep up the good work I am glad to see that people are finally realizing what a tool BP. For too long it just been me and Pete knocking him down a notch.

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[BerkeleyPremed]

BerkeleyPremed,
You're hopeless. I read your *****ic response and its obvious that 1) you can't write 2) maintain any semblance of logic and 3) flip flop between positions as convenient.

I frankly dont care if you realize how stupid your post is, what a failure of the education system you are, or how in fact your contradicted yourself numerous times within your posts. I DO care that the OP learns not to listen to idiots like you who have no idea what youre talking about.

You seriously have not made a single positive contribution to SDN, in general I point out your numerous errors in different posts (if another SDN regular doesnt beat me to it). Seriously, do you think you are helping the OP with your idiotic story about one professor going from BERKELEY to Duke. Perhaps you should learn to read and realize that this thread is about COLUMBIA and UCSF. One anecdote of a professor studying FROGS moving between two schools not even mentioned by the OP is useless. And no it doesnt even illustrate a funding point, professors move around all the time. Thats academia, and thats the free market. And, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD SO WHY DID YOU MENTION IT *****.

BerkeleyPremed, you really are hopeless, and Im glad there are other posters on this thread giving more valuable information to the OP. Maybe you should consider that the world doesnt revolve around you and that instead of masturbating to your posts and crying about a professor transferring between schools it might be good to just NOT POST.

It sucks for you that you hate Berkeley (I think most SDN regulars are actually happy at that fact that there is some justice in this universe), but it has nothing to do with the OP. So if you want to whine about losing a professor to another school, well first youre a loser, and second try posting another thread on it so that we can post on that thread and insult your stupidity there instead of having to hijack someone elses thread. Yeesh, its like talking to a wall, just dumber.

OF COURSE it has to do with funding you idiot. That was the WHOLE POINT of that argument...Berkeley (and the UC sysem) might lose star faculty BECAUSE of budget cuts and lack of funding. That's WHY they can't compete with the salaries offered by private schools...how did you NOT understand this point. I was citing an article in the Daily Californian that used Dr. Hayes' case to illustrate the possbility of a TREND occurring (the UCs losing faculty members due to lack of funding...thus, professors will leave for higher salaries at private schools...even inferior privates like Duke). HOW DID YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT?

Seriously, you REALLY do make an autistic 12 year old look like a Rhodes Scholar. OF COURSE that point is relevant because UCSF is part of the UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA system...is it not??? Won't UCSF INEVITABLY be affected by budget cuts, student fee increases to compensate, etc??

Seriously, your post was absolutely pathetic. You didn't even refute ANYTHING I said because you realized I proved you wrong. You just fabricated an argument and accused me of making that argument...and then went ahead to effectively refute that argument. Your debate skills are practically non-existent. How that point didn't sink through your thick skull absolutely beyond me. Now please do yourself a favor and STOP trying to refute my posts...namely because...you CAN'T. You've already proven you're too stupid to effectively refute any one of the arguments I presented in my post. For the love of God...just move on with your life.

 

[mdmike24]

all the GRAD students rave about his course in endocrinology and grad students are dying to get into his research lab.

i just can't imagine "all" the grad students at Cal dying to get into Frog research.

it's one professor leaving. it happens all the time. maybe his mom is retiring and moving to durham. maybe his favorite aa baseball team is around the research triangle. it's just one professor.

oh yeah, and rankings don't mean ****. those reputational score surveys usnews sends out to academics and residency directors are lucky if they get a 30% response.

 

[TheFlash]

This thread has devolved, like a frog reverting to its tadpole origins. I feel dumber having read some of these comments. Kudos, Berkeley.

 

[lolli]

hey there,
have you spent time at columbia p&s? i am a public health student here, and i just wanted to add in a little bit about columbia student facilities, becaus we all know that both ucsf and columbia are highly respectable, and you will get a fabulous, although very different education at both schools.
but what will your daily life at columbia be like? compared to ucsf, i have got to say that the quality of student life at columbia is very much inferior to that of ucsf.
the library is dark, crowded, mouldy and COLD. the student housing sucks. you will be in manhattan, sure, but the neighborhood is not so good, and you will have at least a 30min subway ride to get to fun hang out spots, movies and restauraunts. city life in NYC is tough. there is continual stimulation, lots of tension everywhere - racial, sexual, class tension etc. it's edgy, yes. people are doing incredible things, yes. but do you really want your daily life to be filled with so much tension? i think that the quality of life at ucsf is just much better for med students.
that's just my opinion. i would for sure choose ucsf over columbia.

 

[BerkeleyPremed]

i just can't imagine "all" the grad students at Cal dying to get into Frog research.

it's one professor leaving. it happens all the time. maybe his mom is retiring and moving to durham. maybe his favorite aa baseball team is around the research triangle. it's just one professor.

oh yeah, and rankings don't mean ****. those reputational score surveys usnews sends out to academics and residency directors are lucky if they get a 30% response.

Yes...graduate students in comparitive literature are dying to get into Dr. Hayes' research lab . Good job genius. The graduate students in the INTEGRATIVE BIOLOGY department rave about Dr. Hayes' course and they do apply to his lab for research spots. Secondly, the article in the Daily Californian that I referenced in my first post in this thread used Dr. Hayes as an example of a LARGER TREND that could happen if the UCs can't compete with the private schools in offering competitive salaries to top faculty members. So NO...this is not just one professor...this isn't an isolated case. If it was...there would be no point in the Daily Cal writing a front page article about it. '

Oh...please don't try to downplay BOTH the US News and National Research Council rankings...if US News isn't good enough for you..then NRC WILL be good enough because they factor in research funding per faculty member, academic reputation, and # of citations per faculty member in major academic journals in the field when they put out their rankings. So please don't try to bash US News...I posted 2 DIFFERENT sources that BOTH confirm and back up my position.

 

[BerkeleyPremed]

i'm laughing out loud. gleevac is hilarious.

berkeleypremed, just cut your losses and run dude. stop trying to change what you said. you'll be caught red-handed, like amarosa lying to the camera. we can all read your first post. Cal's a great school, but you've got a lot of things you need to work on.

I didn't change anything I said. That's the WHOLE POINT. He's accusing me of making X argument...then he goes ahead and talks about why X argument is really stupid and misleading. The problem is...I NEVER MADE X argument. I never said that just because Insitution A has a higher MCAT and GPA average than Insitution B...Institution A must be better than Instiution B!!!! PeteRock (why am I not surprised) is the one who made that argument...not me. You said you can read my first post...so why not go back to it and point out where I made that argument? Oh wait...that's right...you can't...k, forget it.

 

[Cerberus]

I didn't change anything I said. That's the WHOLE POINT. He's accusing me of making X argument...then he goes ahead and talks about why X argument is really stupid and misleading. The problem is...I NEVER MADE X argument. I never said that just because Insitution A has a higher MCAT and GPA average than Insitution B...Institution A must be better than Instiution B!!!! PeteRock (why am I not surprised) is the one who made that argument...not me. You said you can read my first post...so why not go back to it and point out where I made that argument? Oh wait...that's right...you can't...k, forget it.

and when BerkelyPremed dies he will be remembered for his love of memorizing rankings. Your parents but be so proud of their little rankings scholar

 

[mdmike24]

BerkeleyPreMed,

You're crazy. With every post I'm more and more convinced of how nuts you are. And you need some help with anger management too.

Listen, Berkeley has amazing graduate programs. Some of the best in the world. But that's not the case because USNews tells you it is. To say that Cal is #1 in Frog research whereas Harvard is #2 and Stanford is #3 is a little disingenuous. But that's a different conversation for a different thread. All I'll say don't be so driven by USNews. The only people who pay attention to it are grad school applicants and admissions officers.

So, please take it easy. It's ok if people disagree on forums. It happens all the time. Just like professors leaving one great frog program for another.

 

[elias514]

MDMike chiding Berkeley about anger management...hah! Now that's funny!

 

[BerkeleyPremed]

BerkeleyPreMed,

You're crazy. With every post I'm more and more convinced of how nuts you are. And you need some help with anger management too.

Listen, Berkeley has amazing graduate programs. Some of the best in the world. But that's not the case because USNews tells you it is. To say that Cal is #1 in Frog research whereas Harvard is #2 and Stanford is #3 is a little disingenuous. But that's a different conversation for a different thread. All I'll say don't be so driven by USNews. The only people who pay attention to it are grad school applicants and admissions officers.

So, please take it easy. It's ok if people disagree on forums. It happens all the time. Just like professors leaving one great frog program for another.

***SLAPS FOREHEAD WITH RIGHT HAND IN FRUSTRATION AND PLACES HEAD DOWN ON TABLE*** Biology...biology is the field I was looking at...not frog research...lol...frog research FALLS UNDER biological research. Secondly, I posted the National Research Council rankings..go look at them before you bash them. I know the shortcomings of US News...so I posted an alternative source that uses much more in-depth factors when ranking grad programs. Well...you're right about one thing though...grad school applicants and admissions officers do certainly pay attention to the rankings.

 

[Cerberus]

Just like professors leaving one great frog program for another.

 

[elias514]

I have a confession: I am a ***** that cannot argue (MDMike24 was 100% correct by implication). The fact that I am going to attend Michigan attests to the fact that I am a *****, because the match list at Michigan pales in comparison to Columbia (this is an obvious fact). What the hell was I thinking? Individual achievement correlating to success in the Match? What a *****ic idea! Gunners getting top residencies--damn I'm an idiot! Everybody knows that gunners end up at mediocre residency programs.

Thank you, MDMike24 for enabling me to see the error of my ways.

 

[mdmike24]

i'm calm as anything my friend. i hope i didn't offend you with that columbia's match list is better than umich's comment ...

 

[BerkeleyPremed]

and when BerkelyPremed dies he will be remembered for his love of memorizing rankings. Your parents but be so proud of their little rankings scholar

Why you follow me around on these boards like a dog is both a) frightening and b) pathetic. Definitely more a) than b) though. Seriously, you truly are a waste of human flesh. Does your dad regret that night some 20 odd years ago when your he forgot to use the condom and you were conceived? I hope he does...because now the rest of SDN has to bear the burden of his mistake because we have to read your idiotic posts. Why don't you go look in the mirror and wonder why you're a 23 year old virgin? Better yet...think about WHY I treat you like a subhuman and why I consider you a drain on society.

 

[lyragrl]

What is it about Columbia v. UCSF threads that brings out the crazies?

 

[elias514]

Actually, I only care about how people treat me, and I'm convinced that you're an as$hole, MDMike24. I don't care if this is virtual reality or not. You're a fu#king jerk.

 

[mdmike24]

I'm not quite sure I followed your logic there Elias my friend. No knocks on Michigan. but somehow i have a feeling you're an "in-state acceptance". perhaps needed to fulfill a quota for michiganders at the school. i'm sure you're really good at biochemistry and stuff. but logic is really not your thing. just be thankful there's no logic section on the mcat ...

if i were you i would really drop this whole good match list = gunners argument. it's belittling you.

 

[elias514]

See what I mean? You're an a-hole. And BTW, I'm a nonresident of Michigan, which blows from the standpoint of tuition.

 

[mdmike24]

no need for swearing elias. we just disagreed over whether columbia was full of gunners. i'm glad that your year at michigan is the off-year where there are no gunners though. that's awesome.

 

[Cerberus]

Why you follow me around on these boards like a dog is both a) frightening and b) pathetic. Definitely more a) than b) though. Seriously, you truly are a waste of human flesh. Does your dad regret that night some 20 odd years ago when your he forgot to use the condom and you were conceived? I hope he does...because now the rest of SDN has to bear the burden of his mistake because we have to read your idiotic posts. Why don't you go look in the mirror and wonder why you're a 23 year old virgin? Better yet...think about WHY I treat you like a subhuman and why I consider you a drain on society.

woah there tiger, better calm down - you wont make a very good rankings ***** if you have a heart attack.

 

[mdmike24]

Actually, I only care about how people treat me, and I'm convinced that you're an as$hole, MDMike24. I don't care if this is virtual reality or not. You're a fu#king jerk.

suck it b*tch. you don't even know me.

 

[BerkeleyPremed]

What is it about Columbia v. UCSF threads that brings out the crazies?

You can thank the poster, PeteCock (formerly knowns as PeteCockDuke), for completely DERAILING this thread. This was about helping the OP decide between Columbia and UCSF..then it got derailed once PeteCock posted his blithering idiocy about considering program A better than program B just because program A has a higher MCAT average or GPA average than program B. He accuses me of making that argument...but thankfully, I never did...you can check my FIRST post in this thread and it's quite clear. After that comment...Gleevec trotted over to this thread like the dog he is and started spewing more idiotic drivel to rally to the aid of his fellow mentally deficient Duke grad..PeteCock. As for the rest of us...we're left wondering whether this thread can be salvaged or not.

 

[elias514]

In regards to your comment that there is no logic in my argument that every other class is full of gunners at UMich, it's not MY argument. I was merely relaying what other students at Michigan have told me.

 

[elias514]

man, I'm glad I don't know you in person. You seem like a piece of crap with legs.

 

[mdmike24]

In regards to your comment that there is no logic in my argument that every other class is full of gunners at UMich, it's not MY argument. I was merely relaying what other students at Michigan have told me.

alright elias. i understand. let's make friends.

have you met my buddy berkeley?

 

[Cerberus]

elias, mdmike do not squable! let us join together against berkpremed. Now you to run down to state street and get a beer and that expensive bar on the corner and kiss an make up.

 

[mdmike24]

elias, mdmike do not squable! let us join together against berkpremed. Now you to run down to state street and get a beer and that expensive bar on the corner and kiss an make up.

You're right Cerberus. My boy Eli was just a little upset about something I said earlier about Michigan's match list. But we're all good now.

BerkeleyPreMed, tell me how you really feel about Gleevac.

 

[BerkeleyPremed]

Humble attempt to SALVAGE this thread: PROs and CONs for both schools

UCSF-Pros:
-You get to pay in-state tuition at the best public med school in CA.
-You get to live in the Bay Area for 4 more years.
-State of the art medical facilities conveniently located in the heart of SF.
-Pass/Fail curriculum
-Opportunities to participate in cutting edge research.
-Your fellow students are some of the best and brightest from CA.
-Can also get you into a residency anywhere..but is probably better suited towards residencies in CA.

UCSF-Cons:
-The in-state tuition you'll be paying will be increasd by 40%. You won't even be saving that much as compared to a private school.
-You get to live in the Bay Area for 4 more years.
-Practically everyone you meet will be from CA...similar to the freshman experience at **insert another UC school here.**

Columbia-Pros:
-It's in NYC. You'll get to experience living in a new and exciting place for 4 years
-You'll get to meet some of the best and brightest students from across the country.
-Stronger overall alum network.
-Can get you into a residency anywhere.

Columbia-Cons:
-It's in NYC..so you'll have to deal with the weather.
-Tuition is higher than UCSF..but probably not by much after the 40% fee increase goes into effect for UCSF.
-You might be away from family and friends (since you mentioned that you grew up in the Bay Area).

 

[elias514]

Honestly, I don't care about the match list comment. How previous students have matched has very little bearing on my future. My academic and professional success will depend on my own blood, sweat, and tears (and, of course, a modicum of luck).

I sincerely believe that the match list at Columbia is a reflection of the student body, not the institution.

 

[lyragrl]

I sincerely believe that the match list at Columbia is a reflection of the student body, not the institution.

Whatever that means.

 

[CalBeE]

I guess I don't have to watch Dumb and Dumberer on DVD....this thread will do it

 

[Brickhouse]

.... and go play Snood or something.

OMG I love that game!!! I have some crazy scores on "Evil"....

 

[elias514]

Well, it doesn't mean anything. Why would I try to contribute something meaningful to this discussion. Student body? That might mean green jello with walnuts. Or maybe it means a body that happens to be a student...damn, I just don't know. It's a good thing I didn't become a writer, because I'd be a starving, heroin addict roaming the streets of San Francisco barefoot.

 

[elias514]

Dumb and dumberer...dude, I have an IQ of 489.

 

[elias514]

I think the OP loves me, because I've made the decision very easy for him/her. The choice is simple (really, it is): don't attend either school. In fact, don't become a physician. It's overrated. Become a professional bowler.

 

[mdmike24]

Well, it doesn't mean anything. Why would I try to contribute something meaningful to this discussion. Student body? That might mean green jello with walnuts. Or maybe it means a body that happens to be a student...damn, I just don't know. It's a good thing I didn't become a writer, because I'd be a starving, heroin addict roaming the streets of San Francisco barefoot.

Eli, calm down. As a friend, allow me this constructive criticism: you have to work on something called "issue spotting". It consists of thinking about what people say to you and responding accordingly. Everytime someone says anything to you, you go on these crazy tangents that end up with you doing something horrible to yourself. You have to stop that.

Lyragrl's right: your earlier comment didn't make much sense. you don't think the institution's name and reputation has something to do with where their student match?

now, spot the issue and respond to it. i don't want some rambling tale about how you're barefoot in sf.

 

[kokonut]

I just wanted to interject a couple of comments. (in hopes of actually being helpful to the original poster).

1) Berk Premed keeps talking about how UCSF will all be composed of Californians and thus identical to freshman year at Berkeley. I disagree. It's not the same because people are older and have had different experiences. First of all, UCSF has a large number of non-traditionals. You see plenty of people who, for example, grew up in Texas, came to Cali for the dot-com boom, then decided to go to med school after it was over. Or kids who went to college in Utah, did research at UCSF for a year, then applied as a Cali resident. Even the kids who grew up in Cali, then went to the East Coast for 4-6 years for college + post-college stuff are very different from kids who have been in Cali their whole lives. Simply because a majority of the people there have some random connection to Cali (whether it be growing up there or just spending their glide year there while applying to med schools), does not mean that the population is homogeneous.

2) Columbia and UCSF are both great schools. I agree with others who say that UCSF probably has slightly more prestige in the medical arena, but I don't think that's too relevant. I think something that's more relevant is that Columbia has a reputation for tending to produce surgeons and UCSF has a reputation as a primary-care focused school. These are not blanket statements (i.e. you can go to a great surgery residency from UCSF, etc), but if you have a strong interest in one or the other, it might behoove you. I think it's easier to go to a top-tier residency in a surgical subspecialty from Columbia than it is from UCSF, while it's somewhat easier for you to stay in Cali for your residency if you're from UCSF. And this is debatable, but I think UCSF's IM matches tend to be a little better than Columbia's. But either way, you will probably match fine.

3) I think one thing to take note of is that, the quality of life at Columbia seems to be more hit-or-miss. One of my best friends from college is at Columbia med and is quite unhappy there. If you check on this discussion thread and other discussions on Columbia, you will find a few random people venting frustration about the quality of life at Columbia. I have never seen anyone venting about qualify of life at UCSF. I just returned from revisit and they actually seemed like the happiest students I had ever met. Several told me that their first two years were the most fun they've ever had.

That being said, if you love NYC, and got a good feeling from the revisit, then you may be one of the people that loves Columbia. And if staying in the bay area is going to be a negative to your personal quality of life, then going to Columbia could very well result in higher quality of life for you.

As Berk Premed accurately noted, the rising fees means that the difference in costs will probably not be substantial. If they raise fees again within the next four years, your total loans will probably not be that much bigger at Columbia than they would at UCSF ... so that's probably not a big factor.

Basically, I don't think you can go too wrong either way. If your gut is pulling you in one direction or the other, just go with it. Otherwise, you'll probably wonder throughout med school what it would've been like to go to the other school.

Goodluck with your decision, and keep us posted ...
kokonut

 

[mdmike24]

i think you're right kokonut: columbia does have a rep for graduating a lot of people who sub-specialize while many people at ucsf go into primary care. i guess it depends on the op's preference.

kokonut, are you set on going to ucsf?

 

[elias514]

Allow me to be patently clear: I concede that reputation is a factor in the Match (many med students and physicians would support this claim), but it's not a primary determinant of success in this area. The most important factor in residency placement is the INDIVIDUAL's attributes and accomplishments--i.e., preclinical grades, clinical evaluations, standardized test scores, research experience, publications, interviewing ability, etc. Thus, students that get into a neurosurgery residency at MGH actually earn that privilege, they don't land a spot like that JUST because they graduated from Columbia, Harvard, etc. So here's my point: individual achievement is MUCH MORE important than the prestige of an individual's medical school in securing a spot in a top residency program.

This is why you see students from middle tier (even bottom tier) medical schools doing their residency in orthopaedic surgery at Mayo or whatever. Or, better yet, look at the profiles of faculty members at top institutions. You'll see a variety of medical schools--top tier, middle tier, and unranked schools--and residency programs. Certainly, a disproportionate number of these faculty members have an Ivy League pedigree, but this doesn't invalidate my claim.

 

[mdmike24]

that's what i like to see Elias. i agree with you 100%

 

[BerkeleyPremed]

**Pats himself on the back for gettting the thread back on topic after it was derailed by PeteCock, Gleevec, and Cerberus**...lol...j/k

 

[elias514]

Good job, Berkeley PreMed.

 

[Tezzie]

Why do people who have never visited either one of the schools, comment on their facilities?

 

[kokonut]

i think you're right kokonut: columbia does have a rep for graduating a lot of people who sub-specialize while many people at ucsf go into primary care. i guess it depends on the op's preference.

kokonut, are you set on going to ucsf?

I wanted to say that I didn't mean to imply that no one from ucsf sub-specializes. I was talking specifically about surgical sub-specialties, and I think Columbia has a bit of an edge there. At UCSF, you still have plenty of people who sub-specialize, just a greater proportion of primary care docs than you would at a place like Columbia.

I'm not quite set on UCSF. I was, right after I got back from the revisit, but I have started to waver. I really loved the fact that they were so happy there ... but there are a lot of facets to the decision. Decision-making's hard I fully empathize with the original poster, on going back and forth every day. What about you MDMike?

 

[BerkeleyPremed]

Why do people who have never visited either one of the schools, comment on their facilities?

I've been to UCSF (Dr. DeArmond, a professor at the school, invited my neuroanatomy class to go there to take a look at their neuro labs). I haven't been to Columbia though...but I didn't comment on their facilities.

 

[mdmike24]

I was, right after I got back from the revisit, but I have started to waver. I really loved the fact that they were so happy there ... but there are a lot of facets to the decision. Decision-making's hard I fully empathize with the original poster, on going back and forth every day. What about you MDMike?

I'm sort of in the same boat you are. I could go to an east coast school or head to california. i didn't look at sf but i am considering stanf. it's just that cali's so far away. the weather in cali is a lot better for sure. but then i think i'm going to med school, not a vacation. ultimately, i think i'm too tied to the east coast. all my friends are there and i like the pace of life there, so that's where i'll be heading probably.

 

[thewebthsp]

Jesus Christ...learn how to read you blithering idiot. I said that BOTH (UCSF and Columbia) have the best and brightest students..only ONE attracts the best and brightest from around the COUNTRY while the other attracts the best and the brightest from around CALIFORNIA only (please don't bring up the out-of-state population at UCSF...we're looking at PERCENTAGES here). Why didn't I just bring up the average MCAT and average GPA stats from both schools and compare them? I DO have access to those stats...why didn't I post them? Because the DIFFERENCE IS MINIMAL...I said that BOTH schools have phenomenal students...one is able to draw from a larger POOL of applicants though.

Secondly, I VALUE geographical diversity because there practically is none at my school. That's WHY I made that point. I don't care if you don't consider it significant enough to merit posting.

"By your own IDIOTIC standards Berkeley is an inferior institution to Duke and any other private school because by your OWN *****IC ... TRUNCATED

Ok, look, I've had enough of this guy. Bad bad troll, in mho. I'm choosing between UPenn, Chicago and Columbia right now and going into it I thought I was 90% sure on Penn. But it was _the other students_ I met at preview that turned it around.

What I do worry about here though is how divisive people are about this school. The guy above is really hurting everyone else, and I'm irritated he's posting this gobbledeeguk.

From what I can say, yes there are some organization problems at CU, but most people I met who graduated from there had a good experience, and were trained exceptionally well. Columbia also has been really generous with money. What I guess I really want is a group of classmates from which I'll have some lifelong friends, and so far that's what I feel at Columbia.

Anyways my two cents.

Dave

 

[mdmike24]

it seems like your gut is pulling you to columbia. you should go. when you get to a certain caliber of schools, differences in academic rep. are so minimal that they stop mattering and it comes down to your gut feeling. columbia's an awesome school. everyone i know there is very happy and excited about the place. and washington heights is an up-and-coming area. lots of gentrification.

 

[BerkeleyPremed]

Ok, look, I've had enough of this guy. Bad bad troll, in mho. I'm choosing between UPenn, Chicago and Columbia right now and going into it I thought I was 90% sure on Penn. But it was _the other students_ I met at preview that turned it around.

What I do worry about here though is how divisive people are about this school. The guy above is really hurting everyone else, and I'm irritated he's posting this gobbledeeguk.

From what I can say, yes there are some organization problems at CU, but most people I met who graduated from there had a good experience, and were trained exceptionally well. Columbia also has been really generous with money. What I guess I really want is a group of classmates from which I'll have some lifelong friends, and so far that's what I feel at Columbia.

Anyways my two cents.

Dave

Please explain how I'm a troll. Given that I've posted links in this thread that support the statements I've made...and I'm just giving my opinion on the two schools in question...? How does that make me a troll? Personally, I don't care if you're irritated that I'm posting this "gobbledeeguk" (aka...facts supported by the link I posted and info I posted from US News).

If you're going to try to refute some of the arguments I've made about UCSF or Columbia..fine..go right ahead. But if you're just going to come here and post this nonsense about me being a "troll" and annoying you with "gobbledeeguk"...umm..you're just wasting the time of the poor folks reading this thread. You made absolutely no point whatsoever by including my comments in your post...why you even brought me up in your post is absolutely beyond me. Overall..your post was pretty worthless to the OP.