combined AP/CP + research?

[beary]

I have been looking at research tracks in pathology programs and it seems that many of them are oriented towards AP only or CP only residents. Do 2 years of your AP or CP, and then head to the lab full time for a few years. This really appeals to me, but right now I am still considering doing AP/CP combined just because it doesn't seem that much longer, would have broader career options, and just have a larger pathology knowledge base. Does anybody have thoughts or experiences about combined AP/CP programs for basic-science research oriented folks?

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[LADoc00]

I have been looking at research tracks in pathology programs and it seems that many of them are oriented towards AP only or CP only residents. Do 2 years of your AP or CP, and then head to the lab full time for a few years. This really appeals to me, but right now I am still considering doing AP/CP combined just because it doesn't seem that much longer, would have broader career options, and just have a larger pathology knowledge base. Does anybody have thoughts or experiences about combined AP/CP programs for basic-science research oriented folks?

No. mmkay.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I have been looking at research tracks in pathology programs and it seems that many of them are oriented towards AP only or CP only residents. Do 2 years of your AP or CP, and then head to the lab full time for a few years. This really appeals to me, but right now I am still considering doing AP/CP combined just because it doesn't seem that much longer, would have broader career options, and just have a larger pathology knowledge base. Does anybody have thoughts or experiences about combined AP/CP programs for basic-science research oriented folks?

The attendings on the interview trail who told me that I was, more or less, STUPID for deciding to do AP only have used the following arguments: AP/CP makes you more well rounded. For instance, the AP and CP realms will be involved in a turf battle once molecular diagnostics is well established and if you're AP/CP, the turf battle issue doesn't apply to you. Then there is the argument that "it doesn't take that much longer." This latter argument I find absurd. Oh, so just because it only takes a year or two longer means I should do it? Yeah, perhaps I should have done a physics major in college in conjunction to my biology major and thereby spend an extra year before graduating. Yeah, that way I can incorporate physics principles to solve biological research problems. I think one should do something because one is interested and not just because everybody is doing it or because it takes just a few more years. And as for the first argument, if you intend to mainly do bench research and run a lab, who the hell cares about being clinically well-rounded. It just doesn't apply. One may say, "But what if you suck during your postdoc? Where's your safety net?" Fine, then go back and do CP.

The AP only people tell me this argument (which I am biased about and favor). If you will be doing research 90-100% of the time, YOU DON'T NEED BOTH. YOU WILL NOT BE USING BOTH! Specialize in a narrow aspect of pathology just to keep a clinical appointment. Time efficiency in getting to where you want to be with respect to you career is key, as they tell me.

OK LaDoc00...flame me. I'm waiting .

 

[geddy]

The AP only people tell me this argument (which I am biased about and favor). If you will be doing research 90-100% of the time, YOU DON'T NEED BOTH. YOU WILL NOT BE USING BOTH! Specialize in a narrow aspect of pathology just to keep a clinical appointment. Time efficiency in getting to where you want to be with respect to you career is key, as they tell me.

I'm not flaming you man - you know I repesct the research. But, I think it really depends on the kind of research. True, if you're doing basic science then CP is probably useless. If you're doing "translational research", it might be more useful to have CP. For example, CP is where all the training is for quality control and quality assurance testing. If your research involves bringing a new diagnostic test online, that could be very useful info to have in your back pocket. But, if you're comfortable with the idea of doing autopsies to cover your clinical responsibilities and mainly doing research, then that pretty much answers it, although that may change during your first two years of residency.

Also, here's another argument - you never know what direction research will take. A good researcher will follow the trail wherever it leads and adjust and retool as needed. I'm not saying get CP just in case - your argument ad absurdum above regading the physics major addresses this issue. But, AP/CP has the additional benefit of providing job security - I don't think it's as easy to go back and "do CP" later. I consider it a trade-off of time for job security.

I totally agree that your (our) top choice is ideal for what you want to do. You can spend the first two years in AP and then decide what you want to do. But your research experience does fit really nicely with a specialty like renal. If research is your passion, man, I say go for it. I personally may not be able to do it, b/c of family considerations, but deep in my gut it always pulls at me. Right now I'm AP/CP but that could change into AP/research depending on how things go and what grabs me. Hopefully you'll get your top place, where they'll support you and have a track record of sending people that way. Also, hopefully you have people there with you to watch your back while you do it

 

[b&ierstiefel]

You da man geddy

I agree with you wholeheartedly regarding the usefulness of CP with respect to translational research. I never really thought of this issue since, as for now, it is not my intention to do translational or clinical research. But that's just me...and I think I fall in the minority when it comes down to this. These points you made will probably apply to the far majority of path people out there.

P.S. I saw you put in the "I'm not flaming you, man" at the last second. Before you put that in, I never got the impression that you were flaming me anyway. When people disagree with me, I don't jump to the conclusion that they're flaming me.

 

[geddy]

P.S. I saw you put in the "I'm not flaming you, man" at the last second. Before you put that in, I never got the impression that you were flaming me anyway. When people disagree with me, I don't jump to the conclusion that they're flaming me.

Yeah, I'm still pretty new to the whole message board posting thing. Sometimes I read my posts and then think "that came across a little harsher than I intended". I didn't figure you would be upset, but I figured I'd make sure.

 

[bananaface]

Yeah, I'm still pretty new to the whole message board posting thing. Sometimes I read my posts and then think "that came across a little harsher than I intended". I didn't figure you would be upset, but I figured I'd make sure.

You are quite diplomatic and rational. There is no need to worry.

 

[CameronFrye]

In private practice, how much do you actually use both sects of path? Do you normally focus on one (for ex, surg path) and then maybe take call in blood bank or something like that? Or do you deal with AP one day and then something in CP the next; or are your days just completely mixed? I'm a 3rd year currently trying to pick a field and one reason path interests me is b/c it seems pretty varied (at least the residency does) but what's it like once you finish up?

 

[LADoc00]

In private practice, how much do you actually use both sects of path? Do you normally focus on one (for ex, surg path) and then maybe take call in blood bank or something like that? Or do you deal with AP one day and then something in CP the next; or are your days just completely mixed? I'm a 3rd year currently trying to pick a field and one reason path interests me is b/c it seems pretty varied (at least the residency does) but what's it like once you finish up?

The REAL money makers of path are the 4-5 man private groups, in those operations, you do everything, everyday.

 

[geddy]

In private practice, how much do you actually use both sects of path? Do you normally focus on one (for ex, surg path) and then maybe take call in blood bank or something like that? Or do you deal with AP one day and then something in CP the next; or are your days just completely mixed? I'm a 3rd year currently trying to pick a field and one reason path interests me is b/c it seems pretty varied (at least the residency does) but what's it like once you finish up?

I think most people do one or the other. Heme path is the area where there's the most overlap. I know one pathologist who signs out heme path and also does surg path. I think the vast majority, though, don't overlap them. People say it's good to do both so that your job opportunities are better. But it's a good point - if you hate doing CP, them why put yourself in a position where someone may try to get you to do it?

Edit: of course, my experience is almost totally with academic medicine.

 

[LADoc00]

I think most people do one or the other.

Yet another person who doesnt listen to a single thing I say unless it involves toliet humor, no most people DONT do one or the other. They do both. Unless you are in Europe, where Lab Med and Pathology are 2 totally different fields...

Mmmkay
Thanks

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Yet another person who doesnt listen to a single thing I say unless it involves toliet humor, no most people DONT do one or the other. They do both. Unless you are in Europe, where Lab Med and Pathology are 2 totally different fields...

Mmmkay
Thanks

edit: damnit, i can't say ****.

 

[geddy]

Yet another person who doesnt listen to a single thing I say unless it involves toliet humor, no most people DONT do one or the other. They do both. Unless you are in Europe, where Lab Med and Pathology are 2 totally different fields...

Mmmkay
Thanks

Note the edit in my previous post LADoc (put there especially for you, anticipating this response )

Face it man - not everyone thinks the world is a craphole.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Here's a movie quote which I think fits in quite nicely here.

See, there's three kinds of people: dicks, *******, and dinguses. ******* think everyone can get along, and dicks just want to f*ck all the time without thinking it through. But then you got your dinguses, Chuck. And all the dinguses want is to **** all over everything! So, ******* may get mad at dicks once in a while because ******* get f*cked by dicks. But dicks also f*ck dinguses, Chuck. And if they didn't f*ck the dinguses, you know what you'd get? You'd get your dick and your ***** all covered in ****.

 

[DasN]

If you wish to persue a career solely in academics and never want to have the choice of switching to private in the future then an AP only or CP only probably shouldnt be a problem. If you do decide to go private one day and are the only path guy in your group responsible for an entire lab or have to be available for call at one of the hospitals for your group, I think AP/CP would be better. Ive also heard of prefrence in this situation where AP folks in private practice were replaced with AP/CP people due to the fact that it was a pain to cover CP stuff and other issues that the AP only guy couldnt do.

 

[LADoc00]

Face it man - not everyone thinks the world is a craphole.

Dude, you live in the ivory tower for Christ's sake! I was there too, from the Ivory tower the world is a wonderous and gay place filled with laughter where every lunch is free and your girlfriend's genitals have the fragrance of fresh peaches...but in the real world shiat doesnt smell so good.

Academics are like the Film Actors Guild (F.A.G.), they live in a land utterly devoid of reality.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Dude, you live in the ivory tower for Christ's sake! I was there too, from the Ivory tower the world is a wonderous and gay place filled with laughter where every lunch is free and your girlfriend's genitals have the fragrance of fresh peaches...but in the real world shiat doesnt smell so good.

dude, you made me spit out my guinness! that mouthful of beer ALL TO WASTE! thanks a lot you dick!

 

[geddy]

Dude, you live in the ivory tower for Christ's sake! I was there too, from the Ivory tower the world is a wonderous and gay place filled with laughter where every lunch is free and your girlfriend's genitals have the fragrance of fresh peaches...but in the real world shiat doesnt smell so good.

Academics are like the Film Actors Guild (F.A.G.), they live in a land utterly devoid of reality.

Once again, your profiling skills fail miserably... my world is certainly no Ivory Tower, or I wouldn't spend my days trading barbs on the internet with the likes of you

 

[LADoc00]

Once again, your profiling skills fail miserably... my world is certainly no Ivory Tower, or I wouldn't spend my days trading barbs on the internet with the likes of you

Poo daddy dont hate your baby.

 

[deschutes]

At least the Ivory Tower isn't about to be bought out like the Shangri-La!

 

[bananaface]

At least the Ivory Tower isn't about to be bought out like the Shangri-La!

When I lived in Bellingham there was a cheap motel downtown called the Shangri-La. I imagine it was the type of place where the housekeeping staff really ought to have been getting hazard pay. The reader board said "hourly rates". So, when I hear "Shangri-La", I think "skank motel."

 

[b&ierstiefel]

ok back on track...

after everything LADoc00 said tonight, I don't think I wanna do resurch no more.

 

[bananaface]

ok back on track...

after everything LADoc00 said tonight, I don't think I wanna do resurch no more.

Says the man who gets to sleep till noon...

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Says the man who gets to sleep till noon...

actually, i said 2 pm in chat. not noon.

 

[bananaface]

actually, i said 2 pm in chat. not noon.

Yeah, you make me feel WAY sorry for you now...

 

[geddy]

ok back on track...

after everything LADoc00 said tonight, I don't think I wanna do resurch no more.

Yes, I'm sure once you get to your #1 choice and begin residency, the very idea of research will seem repulsive to you

 

[geddy]

Poo daddy dont hate your baby.

You say the sweetest things, you old smoothie. How could I stay angry with you? Let's never fight again.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

You say the sweetest things, you old smoothie. How could I stay angry with you? Let's never fight again.

That's right. The time to kiss and make up is long overdue.

 

[deschutes]

That's right. The time to kiss and make up is long overdue.

Do we all have to make up with LADoc00? He is such an easy target! Andy can't take all my grief.... I have to spread it around.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Do we all have to make up with LADoc00? He is such an easy target! Andy can't take all my grief.... I have to spread it around.

grief? he's giving you grief?

 

[deschutes]

grief? he's giving you grief?

You have it backwards. My intention was to spare you some grief, you idiot.

 

[Molly Maquire]

If someone was doing the combined AP/CP program, would there still be time to do basic science research?

When I asked this question on some interviews, faculty members didn't think it was a good idea. They said that conducting meaningful basic science was so time intensive that it wouldn't be possible, and that most AP/CP people do more clinical research.

Any comments?

 

[b&ierstiefel]

If someone was doing the combined AP/CP program, would there still be time to do basic science research?

When I asked this question on some interviews, faculty members didn't think it was a good idea. They said that conducting meaningful basic science was so time intensive that it wouldn't be possible, and that most AP/CP people do more clinical research.

Any comments?

Pathology is very broad. Research is very specific and focused. If you plan to do rigorous and mechanistic basic science research, you will likely put all your eggs in this basket. Let's say that 20 years from now, you're settled in your career. And let's say you're a basic science investigator (pretty much full time), you're really not a clinical practicing pathologist anymore. Both the AP and CP training probably won't be used anymore to its fullest potential.

 

[beary]

I have read on this forum that CP rotations are not all that time intensive and that during CP only time a resident would be able to get a lot of work done in the lab. So does anybody do this: 2 years of AP (pretty much solely focused on clinical training), and then 2 years of CP, during which they are spending a lot of time in the lab and functioning as a postdoc. Then move into a faculty position at the end of residency or after an additional postdoc year or two.

 

[deschutes]

I was under the impression that a fair bit of CP time was spent catching up on leftover AP duties. Personally I wouldn't underestimate the time commitment required by CP...

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I was under the impression that a fair bit of CP time was spent catching up on leftover AP duties. Personally I wouldn't underestimate the time commitment required by CP...

Right, but if you do CP only, the leftover AP duties are a non-issue. Beary, you still thinking of CP only or leaning towards AP/CP more now?

Most of CP, from my impression, is about learning lab management and reading a big CP book to pass CP boards. Lab management...you'll get plenty of training when you become a PI...you don't really need CP to learn basic lab management (well, I guess you do if you plan on managing a uber super sized CP lab but lab management really isn't rocket science).

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I have read on this forum that CP rotations are not all that time intensive and that during CP only time a resident would be able to get a lot of work done in the lab. So does anybody do this: 2 years of AP (pretty much solely focused on clinical training), and then 2 years of CP, during which they are spending a lot of time in the lab and functioning as a postdoc. Then move into a faculty position at the end of residency or after an additional postdoc year or two.

Honestly, I didn't run across many programs that partitioned off AP and CP training as 2+2. Most places do like 1+1+1+1 or intermingle AP and CP months within a given year.

The only place, in fact, where I saw something that approached the 2+2 deal was Brigham. There, everybody does 2 years of AP upfront. Then after that you have a choice of doing subspecialty AP training, CP training, or research.

 

[beary]

The only place, in fact, where I saw something that approached the 2+2 deal was Brigham. There, everybody does 2 years of AP upfront. Then after that you have a choice of doing subspecialty AP training, CP training, or research.

Doesn't WashU do something along these lines, too?

I don't know what I am leaning towards (CP only or AP/CP). I seriously change my mind every day. To some extent I will wait until my surg path elective and see how much I like it.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Doesn't WashU do something along these lines, too?

I don't know what I am leaning towards (CP only or AP/CP). I seriously change my mind every day. To some extent I will wait until my surg path elective and see how much I like it.

I honestly don't remember. Sorry. There was a WashU thread or two around here though. I also posted a review of my interview there a few months ago...I wonder if I mentioned this before.

 

[yaah]

CP isn't a cakewalk. You do have to self motivate a lot though. And it does take up more time that you would think, because it seems like you are always doing presentations and preparing for didactic sessions or whatever. So while it sounds good in theory to be able to do a lot of research during a CP month, it isn't going to be that practical. One resident in my program does a lot of research, but he has a lot of experience in it and makes time here and there for it.

 

[beary]

CP isn't a cakewalk. You do have to self motivate a lot though. And it does take up more time that you would think, because it seems like you are always doing presentations and preparing for didactic sessions or whatever. So while it sounds good in theory to be able to do a lot of research during a CP month, it isn't going to be that practical. One resident in my program does a lot of research, but he has a lot of experience in it and makes time here and there for it.

yaah.... the voice of reason.

 

[yaah]

yaah.... the voice of reason.

Are you flirting with me?

It is the voice of experience. I spent my second chemistry month this year mostly taking care of former autopsy reports and preparing for presentations since I had about 2 every week. Plus, a lot of CP months have schedules that have you doing something at 8am, then 10am, then 2pm, so you can't really have a long free block of time to do other stuff. And, CP is when you can take vacation!

 

[beary]

Are you flirting with me?

*touches yaah's shoulder*

 

[yaah]

*touches yaah's shoulder*

*grabs Beary's ass*

*Beary slaps Yaah*

*Yaah looks confused and sulks*

 

[deschutes]

I would love to see yaah grab anyone's ass. And when he does I hope to be there with a camera.

 

[cytoborg]

If someone was doing the combined AP/CP program, would there still be time to do basic science research?

When I asked this question on some interviews, faculty members didn't think it was a good idea. They said that conducting meaningful basic science was so time intensive that it wouldn't be possible, and that most AP/CP people do more clinical research.

Any comments?

I got the same feedback from one place (ranked them lower because of it) but other places were very encouraging. In all likelihood I will end up doing more clinically-oriented stuff like everyone else, but was good to gauge the departments' support of AP/CP people doing basic science research. I want to be in an environment where it would be possible to do it if I so chose.

Oh, and UW and Stanford have 2+2 programs.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Given that the minority of people in pathology end up doing basic science research in the long run, I don't think too many departments are going to be too picky regarding who does what. This whole quibble about AP/CP, AP, CP people doing research really is a trivial point. Plus, we don't really have to firmly decide about anything until a few years into residency anyway.

 

[cytoborg]

Given that the minority of people in pathology end up doing basic science research in the long run, I don't think too many departments are going to be too picky regarding who does what. This whole quibble about AP/CP, AP, CP people doing research really is a trivial point. Plus, we don't really have to firmly decide about anything until a few years into residency anyway.

Agreed. It seems like a couple programs make it a bigger issue than it should be.